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On March 17 2012 07:14 Zlasher wrote:
What does it have to do with link at all?
If you get a PMS and then Vanguard on AM with freefarm lane, never had to leave lane, 6.5 cs per minute with a quelling blade, I would call you a retard too.
there's nothing wrong with that if you expect a large push or teamfight soon
sometimes you need to hp just to survive, and battlefury is pretty worthless without another 1 or 2 items behind it
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United States47024 Posts
Part of this is also that I think PMS is a pretty poor item, and that most of the time when people upgrade their Stout to PMS, they would have been better off saving their 300 gold. There are exceptions of course, where having the +6 Agi will actually make a difference in a fight or in lane, but if you're upgrading your Stout just because you can, then realistically that 300 gold could go towards Treads, RoH, or saving toward your real items.
As a result, I rarely get the situation where I got PMS and then decide that I ALSO wanted to make Vanguard instead.
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On March 17 2012 07:26 TheYango wrote:
Part of this is also that I think PMS is a pretty poor item, and that most of the time when people upgrade their Stout to PMS, they would have been better off saving their 300 gold. There are exceptions of course, where having the +6 Agi will actually make a difference in a fight or in lane, but if you're upgrading your Stout just because you can, then realistically that 300 gold could go towards Treads, RoH, or saving toward your real items.
As a result, I rarely get the situation where I got PMS and then decide that I ALSO wanted to make Vanguard instead.
imo the more important thing about PMS is the guaranteed 20/10 damage block
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On March 17 2012 07:26 TheYango wrote:
Part of this is also that I think PMS is a pretty poor item, and that most of the time when people upgrade their Stout to PMS, they would have been better off saving their 300 gold.
As a result, I rarely get the situation where I got PMS and then decide that I ALSO wanted to make Vanguard instead.
it's an incredibly good item for most solo v solo or carry+dual roam/chen v solo lanes and you are an agility melee. other guy's harass effectiveness is halved and you can farm to your hearts content with the exception of a few heroes
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On March 17 2012 07:19 TheYango wrote:
Because they don't fill the same role?
Your statement is equivalent to saying that if you can't keep your mana up as Rhasta without buying Arcane Boots, you should just play CM instead.
what other role does riki carry other than silencer and try to hit people from behind? DPS? you are getting a vanguard ffs. Tide ulti = riki silence, gust ~= blink and anchor ~= backstab dmg.
if my math isnt wrong, i think a RoH(875) give as equal or may be less HP regen in 6 mins(total ~1800 HP) than 3 tangos(90) which give ~(1840 HP). Therefore in early game, buying tangoes is 9 times more cost effective than having a RoH. RoH isnt the best solution to HP regen.
The lack of HP however is greatly filled with the point booster. But no one get a point booster first on riki. More over, orge club is cheaper and give you alternative option for late game haven halberd OR BKB.
TLDR: IMO, vanguard is bad on riki.
edit: wrong math, nvm
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riki does a stupid amount of dps naked
also your math is wrong
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2012 07:29 DoNotDisturb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 07:26 TheYango wrote:
Part of this is also that I think PMS is a pretty poor item, and that most of the time when people upgrade their Stout to PMS, they would have been better off saving their 300 gold. There are exceptions of course, where having the +6 Agi will actually make a difference in a fight or in lane, but if you're upgrading your Stout just because you can, then realistically that 300 gold could go towards Treads, RoH, or saving toward your real items.
As a result, I rarely get the situation where I got PMS and then decide that I ALSO wanted to make Vanguard instead. imo the more important thing about PMS is the guaranteed 20/10 damage block
Which, in the average case is only 8 more damage block per attack.
The majority of Stout Shield's usefulness is in the fact that it hugely nullifies creep damage during lane exchanges for melee heroes. In negating harassment from heroes, buying regen is more significant than the PMS upgrade.
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Can't think of many heroes that are more different than TH and riki.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2012 07:30 NB wrote:
The lack of HP however is greatly filled with the point booster. But no one get a point booster first on riki. More over, orge club is cheaper and give you alternative option for late game haven halberd OR BKB.
Again, look at yourself early-midgame. Say you got Treads, PMS, RoH, Ogre Axe, Diffusal, TP. You're maxed out on slots--but you still mostly need all of the items. So you're in an incredibly awkward situation where you want room to carry new items you're going to buy, but you can't smoothly ditch anything.
Now suppose instead of PMS+RoH+Ogre Axe, you had Vanguard. You have 2 slots open, and no longer have this problem. Hell that even lets you slot in a Magic Stick/Wand if you felt it was useful, and STILL have a slot to spare.
A lot of the value of Vanguard is the slot economy. It fits the Stout damage block, HP regen, and HP into a single item slot. On a hero that's not using all those stats, this is not a big deal. But on a hero that does use all those stats (and in particular carries who will use their item slots for big items), being able to compartmentalize 3 functions into a single slot is a pretty significant luxury.
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On March 17 2012 07:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 07:30 NB wrote:
The lack of HP however is greatly filled with the point booster. But no one get a point booster first on riki. More over, orge club is cheaper and give you alternative option for late game haven halberd OR BKB. Again, look at yourself early-midgame. Say you got Treads, PMS, RoH, Ogre Axe, Diffusal, TP. You're maxed out on slots--but you still mostly need all of the items. So you're in an incredibly awkward situation where you want room to carry new items you're going to buy, but you can't smoothly ditch anything. Now suppose instead of PMS+RoH+Ogre Axe, you had Vanguard. You have 2 slots open, and no longer have this problem. Hell that even lets you slot in a Magic Stick/Wand if you felt it was useful, and STILL have a slot to spare.
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2012 07:46 NB wrote:
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki.
Do you like RoH on Antimage? On Spectre? On Faceless?
Riki needs regen early just as badly, if not MORE so (because all of them have defensive passives) than all of these heroes.
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On March 17 2012 07:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 07:29 DoNotDisturb wrote:On March 17 2012 07:26 TheYango wrote:
Part of this is also that I think PMS is a pretty poor item, and that most of the time when people upgrade their Stout to PMS, they would have been better off saving their 300 gold. There are exceptions of course, where having the +6 Agi will actually make a difference in a fight or in lane, but if you're upgrading your Stout just because you can, then realistically that 300 gold could go towards Treads, RoH, or saving toward your real items.
As a result, I rarely get the situation where I got PMS and then decide that I ALSO wanted to make Vanguard instead. imo the more important thing about PMS is the guaranteed 20/10 damage block Which, in the average case is only 8 more damage block per attack. The majority of Stout Shield's usefulness is in the fact that it hugely nullifies creep damage during lane exchanges for melee heroes. In negating harassment from heroes, buying regen is more significant than the PMS upgrade.
buying regen is not always more significant, probability of 60% isn't really high enough not to warrant getting pms, since the probability of it not blocking damage for a few hits out of a handful is still quite high, and would cause tango being used, and 300 is so easy to reach it's easy to gain the advantage in lane rather than buying out 3 regen items and ferrying it out for the equivalent gold exchange. this is all discounting the +6 agility which isn't bad for last hitting.
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On March 17 2012 07:20 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 07:15 Shikyo wrote:
cc = crowd control?
Where did this calling crowd control disables start, you might as well ask? i think they originate from HoN but wide spreaded by those LoL champion introduction videos.... my roomates who play lol always ask me about 'does he has any CC?' and i was all like 'wtf is CC to you ~_~?'
i actually think CC has become so widespread because of the WoW community.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
I think the only (pretty specific) time I get PMS nowadays is when playing I'm playing Void, I have a ranged lane partner, and when the opposition in lane is one range/one melee with emphasis on physical harassment. Getting a PMS there goes a long way in winning the lane.
Also Yango there's no hero that wouldn't enjoy a RoH during the laning phase. The problem inherent is that the 875 gold could be better spent elsewhere since you won't be using the Ring. Of course, since you're talking about Vanguard on Riki it doesn't really matter, but I still can't really wrap my mind around that item being something Riki should go for first.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2012 07:57 flamewheel wrote:
Also Yango there's no hero that wouldn't enjoy a RoH during the laning phase. The problem inherent is that the 875 gold could be better spent elsewhere since you won't be using the Ring. Of course, since you're talking about Vanguard on Riki it doesn't really matter, but I still can't really wrap my mind around that item being something Riki should go for first.
I think RoH is better in lanes that you're doing poorly in and are trying to farm defensively, while stats/Treads/etc. are better in lanes where you're in the advantage, because those are situations where your opponents are less likely to want to trade with you, and the extra damage will increase your likelihood of getting a kill.
My point about RoH on Riki is that a pretty large percentage of his lane matchups are the former case, rather than the latter. If you get scenarios where you're in the advantage and don't need the regen (trilane, got FB from a good gank, etc.) that's great--but that's likely to be because you outplayed your opponent, and is not something you can reliably plan around.
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On March 17 2012 07:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 07:46 NB wrote:
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki. Do you like RoH on Antimage? On Spectre? On Faceless? Riki needs regen early just as badly, if not MORE so (because all of them have defensive passives) than all of these heroes.
AM, yes
spec, yes
Void no
riki no
riki needs regen? why? May be we play him differently but i prefer to play him as a ganker instead of hard carry farming until 6 slot maxed out. In that case, i often try to force team fight happen and pick up kills as a team with my smoke. After each of those fight, i either lose 75% HP and go to fountain regen or has more than 75% HP and keep on ganking. Staying in a lane and farm as well as jungling is the very last option i would take as playing riki therefore passive HP regen shall be prioritize lower than adding in dmg to actually get the kill.
Same to void: RoH is good if you get incredible farm up in 10 mins and ready for a BFury transition for late carry. However often that isnt the case (2 me its most of the time) and void role often came down to get a good ulti and pick 1 off before/during team fight happen. This way, MoM is my idead item choice follow by crystalys after.
unlike AM or spec, riki and void (at least to me) have much more flexible play styles and well adapted to situation. It is true that enter mid game, majority of these heroes suffer HUGE problem with the lack of HP but i believe once you enter the mid/late game and getting the 2nd/3rd core item, BKB>Vanguard anytime.
So, again this is my opinion:
+ RoH is not a great choice on riki.
+ Mid/late game lack of HP should be solved by BKB rather than vanguard.
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On March 17 2012 08:02 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 07:47 TheYango wrote:On March 17 2012 07:46 NB wrote:
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki. Do you like RoH on Antimage? On Spectre? On Faceless? Riki needs regen early just as badly, if not MORE so (because all of them have defensive passives) than all of these heroes. AM, yes spec, yes Void no riki no riki needs regen? why? May be we play him differently but i prefer to play him as a ganker instead of hard carry farming until 6 slot maxed out. In that case, i often try to force team fight happen and pick up kills as a team with my smoke. After each of those fight, i either lose 75% HP and go to fountain regen or has more than 75% HP and keep on ganking. Staying in a lane and farm as well as jungling is the very last option i would take as playing riki therefore passive HP regen shall be prioritize lower than adding in dmg to actually get the kill. Same to void: RoH is good if you get incredible farm up in 10 mins and ready for a BFury transition for late carry. However often that isnt the case most of the time and void role often came down to get a good ulti and pick 1 off before/during team fight happen. This way, MoM is my idead item choice follow by crystalys after. unlike AM or spec, riki and void (at least to me) have much more flexible play styles and well adapted to situation. It is true that enter mid game, majority of these heroes suffer HUGE problem with the lack of HP but i believe once you enter the mid/late game and getting the 2nd/3rd core item, BKB>Vanguard anytime. So, again this is my opinion: + RoH is not a great choice on riki. + Mid/late game lack of HP should be solved by BKB rather than vanguard.
I don't see why you wouldn't get RoH on void. vanguard is ok on void and battlefury is great. I hate MoM build on him, and I feel like most of the time its more detrimental than helpful in teamfights.
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On March 17 2012 08:04 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 08:02 NB wrote:On March 17 2012 07:47 TheYango wrote:On March 17 2012 07:46 NB wrote:
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki. Do you like RoH on Antimage? On Spectre? On Faceless? Riki needs regen early just as badly, if not MORE so (because all of them have defensive passives) than all of these heroes. AM, yes spec, yes Void no riki no riki needs regen? why? May be we play him differently but i prefer to play him as a ganker instead of hard carry farming until 6 slot maxed out. In that case, i often try to force team fight happen and pick up kills as a team with my smoke. After each of those fight, i either lose 75% HP and go to fountain regen or has more than 75% HP and keep on ganking. Staying in a lane and farm as well as jungling is the very last option i would take as playing riki therefore passive HP regen shall be prioritize lower than adding in dmg to actually get the kill. Same to void: RoH is good if you get incredible farm up in 10 mins and ready for a BFury transition for late carry. However often that isnt the case most of the time and void role often came down to get a good ulti and pick 1 off before/during team fight happen. This way, MoM is my idead item choice follow by crystalys after. unlike AM or spec, riki and void (at least to me) have much more flexible play styles and well adapted to situation. It is true that enter mid game, majority of these heroes suffer HUGE problem with the lack of HP but i believe once you enter the mid/late game and getting the 2nd/3rd core item, BKB>Vanguard anytime. So, again this is my opinion: + RoH is not a great choice on riki. + Mid/late game lack of HP should be solved by BKB rather than vanguard. I don't see why you wouldn't get RoH on void. vanguard is ok on void and battlefury is great. I hate MoM build on him, and I feel like most of the time its more detrimental than helpful in teamfights.
backtrack, time walk, ulti... void belongs to one of the hardest-to-kill-carrier out there. During teamfight, your ultimate should be able to disable more than half of the enemy team so again, survivability shouldnt be a problem which often make vanguard excessive. During void ulti, you need too deal as much dmg as possible and MoM provide the most AS during that short amount of time among all the items in dota. Later on adding in Buriza just mean that your ulti will turn a 5v5 into a 4v5 in a blink of the eye.
MoM also give you a good jungle option which solve a lot of ganking shenanigan mid game period. Extra MS help excape/chasing even more easy and the AS help you on the bash chance.
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On March 17 2012 08:13 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 08:04 PHILtheTANK wrote:On March 17 2012 08:02 NB wrote:On March 17 2012 07:47 TheYango wrote:On March 17 2012 07:46 NB wrote:
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki. Do you like RoH on Antimage? On Spectre? On Faceless? Riki needs regen early just as badly, if not MORE so (because all of them have defensive passives) than all of these heroes. AM, yes spec, yes Void no riki no riki needs regen? why? May be we play him differently but i prefer to play him as a ganker instead of hard carry farming until 6 slot maxed out. In that case, i often try to force team fight happen and pick up kills as a team with my smoke. After each of those fight, i either lose 75% HP and go to fountain regen or has more than 75% HP and keep on ganking. Staying in a lane and farm as well as jungling is the very last option i would take as playing riki therefore passive HP regen shall be prioritize lower than adding in dmg to actually get the kill. Same to void: RoH is good if you get incredible farm up in 10 mins and ready for a BFury transition for late carry. However often that isnt the case most of the time and void role often came down to get a good ulti and pick 1 off before/during team fight happen. This way, MoM is my idead item choice follow by crystalys after. unlike AM or spec, riki and void (at least to me) have much more flexible play styles and well adapted to situation. It is true that enter mid game, majority of these heroes suffer HUGE problem with the lack of HP but i believe once you enter the mid/late game and getting the 2nd/3rd core item, BKB>Vanguard anytime. So, again this is my opinion: + RoH is not a great choice on riki. + Mid/late game lack of HP should be solved by BKB rather than vanguard. I don't see why you wouldn't get RoH on void. vanguard is ok on void and battlefury is great. I hate MoM build on him, and I feel like most of the time its more detrimental than helpful in teamfights. backtrack, time walk, ulti... void belongs to one of the hardest-to-kill-carrier out there. During teamfight, your ultimate should be able to disable more than half of the enemy team so again, survivability shouldnt be a problem which often make vanguard excessive. During void ulti, you need too deal as much dmg as possible and MoM provide the most AS during that short amount of time among all the items in dota. Later on adding in Buriza just mean that your ulti will turn a 5v5 into a 4v5 in a blink of the eye. MoM also give you a good jungle option which solve a lot of ganking shenanigan mid game period. Extra MS help excape/chasing even more easy and the AS help you on the bash chance.
MoM is only worth it imo if you chronosphere EVERY enemy hero during EVERY chronosphere.
Also is anyone watching EG v Quantic? Wtf was Misery doing on that potm kill attempt?
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On March 17 2012 08:27 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 08:13 NB wrote:On March 17 2012 08:04 PHILtheTANK wrote:On March 17 2012 08:02 NB wrote:On March 17 2012 07:47 TheYango wrote:On March 17 2012 07:46 NB wrote:
was about to make a long post but i just wana say that i still dont like RoH on riki. Do you like RoH on Antimage? On Spectre? On Faceless? Riki needs regen early just as badly, if not MORE so (because all of them have defensive passives) than all of these heroes. AM, yes spec, yes Void no riki no riki needs regen? why? May be we play him differently but i prefer to play him as a ganker instead of hard carry farming until 6 slot maxed out. In that case, i often try to force team fight happen and pick up kills as a team with my smoke. After each of those fight, i either lose 75% HP and go to fountain regen or has more than 75% HP and keep on ganking. Staying in a lane and farm as well as jungling is the very last option i would take as playing riki therefore passive HP regen shall be prioritize lower than adding in dmg to actually get the kill. Same to void: RoH is good if you get incredible farm up in 10 mins and ready for a BFury transition for late carry. However often that isnt the case most of the time and void role often came down to get a good ulti and pick 1 off before/during team fight happen. This way, MoM is my idead item choice follow by crystalys after. unlike AM or spec, riki and void (at least to me) have much more flexible play styles and well adapted to situation. It is true that enter mid game, majority of these heroes suffer HUGE problem with the lack of HP but i believe once you enter the mid/late game and getting the 2nd/3rd core item, BKB>Vanguard anytime. So, again this is my opinion: + RoH is not a great choice on riki. + Mid/late game lack of HP should be solved by BKB rather than vanguard. I don't see why you wouldn't get RoH on void. vanguard is ok on void and battlefury is great. I hate MoM build on him, and I feel like most of the time its more detrimental than helpful in teamfights. backtrack, time walk, ulti... void belongs to one of the hardest-to-kill-carrier out there. During teamfight, your ultimate should be able to disable more than half of the enemy team so again, survivability shouldnt be a problem which often make vanguard excessive. During void ulti, you need too deal as much dmg as possible and MoM provide the most AS during that short amount of time among all the items in dota. Later on adding in Buriza just mean that your ulti will turn a 5v5 into a 4v5 in a blink of the eye. MoM also give you a good jungle option which solve a lot of ganking shenanigan mid game period. Extra MS help excape/chasing even more easy and the AS help you on the bash chance. MoM is only worth it imo if you chronosphere EVERY enemy hero during EVERY chronosphere. Also is anyone watching EG v Quantic? Wtf was Misery doing on that potm kill attempt?
one might said he is
*put on glasses*
Misery
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EPT
