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On March 14 2012 21:29 LAN-f34r wrote:I don't have time to watch those atm (I gotta sleep TT), but the first one is 1v1, which isn't what we've been talking about - dark seer also has great escape, so its much harder to gank him in that position. Was the DK axe tri against another tri? If not, then it is reasonable since you can't tp multiple people to one tower instantly. It's normal when you are pushing a tower with no one around to have one person go forward to tank the creeps, but not when there are 3 other heroes right there. In 2v2s and 3v3, going behind the tower is incredibly risky unless you all have great escape, and last I checked qop AM mirana isn't a good tri lane 
but to what you were saying a 1v1 is even mroe relevant since 2 people can tp and kill him off, but what you are saying is tp'ing the entire team to defend against 2 or 3 for a t1 tower that early in the game, the trough is you lose way more getting your entire team defending that tower than you are giving away freefarm to other lanes and for the farming time you lose, not even counting the tp's are not that small an investment that early in the game, especialy for the mid player who has to get his core items asap
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On March 14 2012 22:00 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:12 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 21:05 LAN-f34r wrote:
Lets just put it this way. Why hasn't it happened in a pro game?
If you are going to trilane vs a non-trilane, you can probably get the tower for free anyway if you have chen. But if they have 3 heroes focusing one creep, it ain't going to last. And if you go to support that creep, you are still diving when the odds are otherwise even - even if somehow you can win a 3v3+tower, someone can TP and its practically a 3v5. Dark seer isn't THAT OP (until he gets ags). Incidentally, it has happened in pro games. EHOME vs LGD from SMM 2010 - 830's DS meets the creeps behind the tower in a 1v1 lane. + Show Spoiler +DK vs Panda from G-1 League 2012 - DK runs a trilane with Axe and meet the creeps behind the tower. + Show Spoiler +A couple other times Axe got picked in G-1 League, he got used to meet creeps behind tower in certain scenarios, but not necessarily right at the start of laning. That said, the effectiveness of the strategy is way stronger in pubs where 1) players won't be able to respond properly to it, and in particular are going to be terrible at farming off their tower, and 2) teams won't pick against it. You'll note that in both cases while the strategy has a lot of potential to capitalize on the mistakes of the player that is being backlaned, it's equally possible for the backlaner to quickly lose control of the situation. Btw The First game EHome vs LGD I reccommend watching even if you are not interested in the Dark Seer creepskipping, people say dota requires little mechanical skill for farming, but Burnings Morphling's farm that game(while also participating in some teamfights) is just beyond ridicilous and there are not many who can even get close to that.
people say dota requires little mechanical skill for farming because it doesn't take very much mechanical skill to farm
a large part of his farm is due to his team making room for him to farm; he farms top lane pretty much unmolested for over 30 minutes
that's not to say he's not a great player, but i'd point more to good decision making than differences in mechanical skill
SEA players (the only ones that still occasionally use morph) can manage similar numbers nowadays, though of course mechanics have improved a bit since then
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On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek?
he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all.
On March 14 2012 23:10 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:00 Kipsate wrote:On March 14 2012 21:12 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 21:05 LAN-f34r wrote:
Lets just put it this way. Why hasn't it happened in a pro game?
If you are going to trilane vs a non-trilane, you can probably get the tower for free anyway if you have chen. But if they have 3 heroes focusing one creep, it ain't going to last. And if you go to support that creep, you are still diving when the odds are otherwise even - even if somehow you can win a 3v3+tower, someone can TP and its practically a 3v5. Dark seer isn't THAT OP (until he gets ags). Incidentally, it has happened in pro games. EHOME vs LGD from SMM 2010 - 830's DS meets the creeps behind the tower in a 1v1 lane. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUrtMZ0GN80 DK vs Panda from G-1 League 2012 - DK runs a trilane with Axe and meet the creeps behind the tower. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tqmzz9DwEQ A couple other times Axe got picked in G-1 League, he got used to meet creeps behind tower in certain scenarios, but not necessarily right at the start of laning. That said, the effectiveness of the strategy is way stronger in pubs where 1) players won't be able to respond properly to it, and in particular are going to be terrible at farming off their tower, and 2) teams won't pick against it. You'll note that in both cases while the strategy has a lot of potential to capitalize on the mistakes of the player that is being backlaned, it's equally possible for the backlaner to quickly lose control of the situation. Btw The First game EHome vs LGD I reccommend watching even if you are not interested in the Dark Seer creepskipping, people say dota requires little mechanical skill for farming, but Burnings Morphling's farm that game(while also participating in some teamfights) is just beyond ridicilous and there are not many who can even get close to that. people say dota requires little mechanical skill for farming because it doesn't take very much mechanical skill to farm a large part of his farm is due to his team making room for him to farm; he farms top lane pretty much unmolested for over 30 minutes that's not to say he's not a great player, but i'd point more to good decision making than differences in mechanical skill SEA players (the only ones that still occasionally use morph) can manage similar numbers nowadays, though of course mechanics have improved a bit since then
he still posted up great kill numbers too, but i respect burning more for other games he's played than that one, the way DK has developed into a dota powerhouse has a lot to do with him
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:13 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek? he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all.
i personally feel that thd fulfills a lot of roles, most roles actually other than being a carry. can deny pushes really hard (by bm/furion or other creep-based pushes) which can possibly allow a replacement of venomancer (though his ultimate is sick), an additional disable (2.5 secs or 3 secs? 2 secs? can't rmb but it IS aoe) that heroes like bm/veno/furion/enchant/chen doesn't really have, decent farming capabilities, great pushing capabilties, and is able to do real damage during team fights, as well as soaking up quite a lot of damage.
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On March 14 2012 23:34 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:13 rabidch wrote:On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek? he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all. i personally feel that thd fulfills a lot of roles, most roles actually other than being a carry. can deny pushes really hard (by bm/furion or other creep-based pushes) which can possibly allow a replacement of venomancer (though his ultimate is sick), an additional disable (2.5 secs or 3 secs? 2 secs? can't rmb but it IS aoe) that heroes like bm/veno/furion/enchant/chen doesn't really have, decent farming capabilities, great pushing capabilties, and is able to do real damage during team fights, as well as soaking up quite a lot of damage.
Best thing is he doesn't need many items to do so, therefore he can go anywhere with the item build. Can either go hardcore caster with agha, or go support with mek'n'hex or have fun with vangurad shiva for epic slows
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:37 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:34 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 23:13 rabidch wrote:On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek? he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all. i personally feel that thd fulfills a lot of roles, most roles actually other than being a carry. can deny pushes really hard (by bm/furion or other creep-based pushes) which can possibly allow a replacement of venomancer (though his ultimate is sick), an additional disable (2.5 secs or 3 secs? 2 secs? can't rmb but it IS aoe) that heroes like bm/veno/furion/enchant/chen doesn't really have, decent farming capabilities, great pushing capabilties, and is able to do real damage during team fights, as well as soaking up quite a lot of damage. Best thing is he doesn't need many items to do so, therefore he can go anywhere with the item build. Can either go hardcore caster with agha, or go support with mek'n'hex or have fun with vangurad shiva for epic slows
yeah he has a decent mana pool from the start, and makes that liquid fire so easy to down towers and keeps some extra creep kills. i remember going boots first on that guy with 1 tango lol
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On March 14 2012 23:34 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:13 rabidch wrote:On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek? he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all. i personally feel that thd fulfills a lot of roles, most roles actually other than being a carry. can deny pushes really hard (by bm/furion or other creep-based pushes) which can possibly allow a replacement of venomancer (though his ultimate is sick), an additional disable (2.5 secs or 3 secs? 2 secs? can't rmb but it IS aoe) that heroes like bm/veno/furion/enchant/chen doesn't really have, decent farming capabilities, great pushing capabilties, and is able to do real damage during team fights, as well as soaking up quite a lot of damage.
he is really fat, his wings dont make him fly fast enough which is horrible with his attack range, as a support he's not as versatile as a veno, vs, cm, etc. his main advantage is that he's tankier than all the aforementioned heroes and well, that's not always what you want.
also scepter thd is really damn scary
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On March 14 2012 23:40 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:37 Qbek wrote:On March 14 2012 23:34 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 23:13 rabidch wrote:On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek? he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all. i personally feel that thd fulfills a lot of roles, most roles actually other than being a carry. can deny pushes really hard (by bm/furion or other creep-based pushes) which can possibly allow a replacement of venomancer (though his ultimate is sick), an additional disable (2.5 secs or 3 secs? 2 secs? can't rmb but it IS aoe) that heroes like bm/veno/furion/enchant/chen doesn't really have, decent farming capabilities, great pushing capabilties, and is able to do real damage during team fights, as well as soaking up quite a lot of damage. Best thing is he doesn't need many items to do so, therefore he can go anywhere with the item build. Can either go hardcore caster with agha, or go support with mek'n'hex or have fun with vangurad shiva for epic slows yeah he has a decent mana pool from the start, and makes that liquid fire so easy to down towers and keeps some extra creep kills. i remember going boots first on that guy with 1 tango lol
I ussually went with bassilius tango Now I just get ring of protection and buy it latter, but that armor and pushing power is all you need early. Something more for mana, like void stone, and you're set till lategame.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:57 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:40 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 23:37 Qbek wrote:On March 14 2012 23:34 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 23:13 rabidch wrote:On March 14 2012 22:46 konadora wrote:On March 14 2012 22:37 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote:On March 14 2012 08:04 ArcticVanguard wrote:On March 14 2012 04:52 rabidch wrote:
eg misses that timing window and loses... absolutely cannot let other team grab roshan while you're preparing for a push, especially when a farmed morphling can control split pushing so damn easily. korok played a very good game. Is the vod up yet? Could someone post it when it is? I'm a huge Morphling fan. http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetgodz/b/311563871 Thanks so much, that was a great game. I'd never thought about doing a CM/Morphling lane before. Jakiro wound up being a great pick. Since the Na'Vi pick of Jakiro, is he starting to become relevant in the metagame? Jakiro has always been such a great hero, wasn't he quite involved in dota 1 pro-scene? Good stats, beefy hero, crazy nuke, huge aoe disable, and a high dps ulti that combined with another skill (black hole, vacuum, or any aoe stuns or even his own skill chain) just wrecks so much havoc. wasn't it quite common to see him get the mek? he was, on and off. i think the main reason why they picked him was because he was more useful than the other heroes pickable that can go against brood, other than maybe qop. brood cant push on a dual lane like that and if he stays at green hp brood cannot kill him at all. i personally feel that thd fulfills a lot of roles, most roles actually other than being a carry. can deny pushes really hard (by bm/furion or other creep-based pushes) which can possibly allow a replacement of venomancer (though his ultimate is sick), an additional disable (2.5 secs or 3 secs? 2 secs? can't rmb but it IS aoe) that heroes like bm/veno/furion/enchant/chen doesn't really have, decent farming capabilities, great pushing capabilties, and is able to do real damage during team fights, as well as soaking up quite a lot of damage. Best thing is he doesn't need many items to do so, therefore he can go anywhere with the item build. Can either go hardcore caster with agha, or go support with mek'n'hex or have fun with vangurad shiva for epic slows yeah he has a decent mana pool from the start, and makes that liquid fire so easy to down towers and keeps some extra creep kills. i remember going boots first on that guy with 1 tango lol I ussually went with bassilius tango Now I just get ring of protection and buy it latter, but that armor and pushing power is all you need early. Something more for mana, like void stone, and you're set till lategame.
ah right, RoB, how could i forget that :p
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hmm, is boot of trasquil good on lich? Whenever i play lich i keep debating that or mana boot. The thing i like most about transquil is that its so freaking cheap and could be bought from side shop very early on.
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Just played the first game in a party...it's so much better than single queue. Like infinity times better.
10-0-18 Naix and 8-1-17 CM ftw. Score at the end was 37 : 9.
Many players do not understand Naix...
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
tranquility boots definitely, no? though i personally prefer phase boots on him :p
the only reason why lich would want an arcane boots is to pull off the cf + nova halfway during a team fight or to be a better support through giving allies mana :o
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 15 2012 01:53 ChrisXIV wrote:
Just played the first game in a party...it's so much better than single queue. Like infinity times better.
10-0-18 Naix and 8-1-17 CM ftw. Score at the end was 37 : 9.
Many players do not understand Naix...
after having played multiple carry heroes, i really felt naix was one of the best and all-game useful. (sorry guys who had to play with my antimage  )
that slow is just ridiculous lol
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On March 15 2012 01:54 konadora wrote:
tranquility boots definitely, no? though i personally prefer phase boots on him :p
the only reason why lich would want an arcane boots is to pull off the cf + nova halfway during a team fight or to be a better support through giving allies mana :o
Well.. since lich should be in nearly every teamfight in the game if possible - arcane boots are pretty good too. ... a normal team should have atleast 2 arcane boots imo, so of course it depends on the lineup.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 15 2012 02:03 Kirb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 01:54 konadora wrote:
tranquility boots definitely, no? though i personally prefer phase boots on him :p
the only reason why lich would want an arcane boots is to pull off the cf + nova halfway during a team fight or to be a better support through giving allies mana :o Well.. since lich should be in nearly every teamfight in the game if possible - arcane boots are pretty good too. ... a normal team should have atleast 2 arcane boots imo, so of course it depends on the lineup.
idk, i'd prefer tranquility boots into fast mek imo, leaving arcane boots to other heroes that require the mana more often
besides, the tranquil boots can be broken down in the next patch iirc :p
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I think the best boots for all supports are phase boots unless your team nees the mana, getting in a better position is everything as a support
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 15 2012 02:08 cilinder007 wrote:
I think the best boots for all supports are phase boots unless your team nees the mana, getting in a better position is everything as a support
i think it goes well with lich too, the slow into extra ms to chase that enemy hero (or run away from chasing heroes) is not bad
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MTW not looking good at all this game.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 15 2012 02:49 Xinder wrote:
MTW not looking good at all this game.
other than that weird QOP blunder early on lol, mTw is just getting rolled over
AA did that nice juke at the bottom the first time though :p
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EPT
