|
On August 15 2013 02:22 superstartran wrote:
It should always be your captain to ask the team if the game is over or not. Also, ultimately he should make the call to say GG or not, or to keep playing. Your 5th position Rubick who plays like a 3rd position Dark Seer should not be calling GG.
We actually agree on that. I don't think that means your captain has to go insta-mad at that player in front of the pod cam though.
|
On August 15 2013 02:22 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 02:18 TheTuna wrote:I really hope Xboct can put on his big boy pants and deal with whatever issues he's having, because it would be both financially unsound for him and disappointing from a viewer's perspective to break up the core trio of Na'Vi. On August 15 2013 02:17 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 02:10 Y wrote:On August 15 2013 02:08 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 02:05 Y wrote:On August 15 2013 01:45 superstartran wrote:
...The fact that Puppey wasn't upset at Kuroky's call to GG game 1 should tell you everything. How do you know he wasn't upset? All we have about this entire situation is an angry post from XBOCT, a picture of Na'Vi arguing backstage after Game 1 and zero's tweet that he won't comment until he's spoken to people. Everyone is reading a bit much into that I think... Lol did you watch the pod video? Hvost was 100% clearly upset with Kuroky, while Puppey didn't seem like he cared at all. Yeah, but XBOCT is known for that, whereas Puppey isn't, really. I can't remember any moment where Puppey looked like he was angry with any of his teammates. Which is why Hvost is upset with Puppey. Puppey is suppose to be the team captain, so he is the one who should decide the game is over (as long as everyone is at a consensus that the game is over). If there needs to be a consensus that the game is over, then Puppey isn't deciding that the game is over, the team is. It should always be your captain to ask the team if the game is over or not. Also, ultimately he should make the call to say GG or not, or to keep playing. Your 5th position Rubick who plays like a 3rd position Dark Seer should not be calling GG.
Yeah, that's fair. I'm just pointing out that logically if the captain is the one who decides when to GG he doesn't and shouldn't require unanimous approval from his players.
Also agreed that Puppey pretty much never visibly loses his temper. You're reading too much into this. Even immediately after a huge throw and the loss of ~800,000 dollars Puppey gave a completely calm, composed, and respectful interview.
|
I think the big issue is if Puppey will put the guaranteed money that is Na'Vi before his bromance with Kuroky or not.
It feels like he is already cutting kky much more slack in terms of ingame play compared to the other people. You could go as far as Puppey is playing 1 support 4 just for the sake of having kky on his team.
|
I dunno, I've always felt that most players on Na'Vi tend to blunder at a rate at least approaching equality. I wouldn't mind if Kuroky goes somewhere else, though.
|
On August 15 2013 02:26 Mataza wrote:
I think the big issue is if Puppey will put the guaranteed money that is Na'Vi before his bromance with Kuroky or not.
It feels like he is already cutting kky much more slack in terms of ingame play compared to the other people. You could go as far as Puppey is playing 1 support 4 just for the sake of having kky on his team.
That's why I said KKY would never fit on the team. KKY is historically a MID player. That is where he is strongest. His carry/mid tendencies have bled into his support play, and that's exactly why Hvost is (this time rightfully) upset with KKY. Sure, he did it in an immature way, but I'd be pissed as shit if my support was busy farming instead of helping me maintain control of the lane and creating me space to farm.
Hvost may be a suicidal maniac at times, and he may make big mistakes, but his complaints are probably legitimate.
|
While Kuroky's playstyle doesn't really fit, I find it hard to sympathize with Xboct as being in the right when he nearly threw a crucial series for no real apparent reason. Hopefully they sort out this drama quickly.
|
On August 15 2013 02:34 TheTuna wrote:
While Kuroky's playstyle doesn't really fit, I find it hard to sympathize with Xboct as being in the right when he nearly threw a crucial series for no real apparent reason. Hopefully they sort out this drama quickly.
It's been a huge problem. Hvost doesn't want to play with Kuroky since forever; only reason why Kuroky is there is because of Puppey who covers up for alot of Kuroky's selfish play. G1 of the International was merely the water reaching the tipping point. Like, Pupppey has to play both the 4 and the 5 positions, trying to maintain wards, smokes, counters, all while buying the mek while Kuroky gets his Blink Dagger/Force Staff.
Na'vi played blind half the tournament, and when you play with a carry like Hvost who plays ultra aggressive, you'll find that he will tend to overextend and get himself killed alot. I was surprised that Hvost didn't die more than he did; he played much better this tournament than he ever has in any other tournament. He still made some game throwing mistakes, but I think you can attribute that also due to the fact that he almost never has any support from KKY.
|
This really all comes down to ZeroGravity if he can sort it out with his players ASAP because if he can't. Na'Vi will have to change their line-up again. This time it can potentially be too hard to replace.
Puppey has never been angry. I have never recalled seeing him mad. The problem is Kky. His style of play on a support works well into mid game if he is left alone. If he isn't, he has nothing. Literally because he won't even buy wards to save gold for his items. It's aggravating. I hope if they do change their roster, it would be for the better.
|
On August 15 2013 02:40 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 02:34 TheTuna wrote:
While Kuroky's playstyle doesn't really fit, I find it hard to sympathize with Xboct as being in the right when he nearly threw a crucial series for no real apparent reason. Hopefully they sort out this drama quickly. It's been a huge problem. Hvost doesn't want to play with Kuroky since forever; only reason why Kuroky is there is because of Puppey who covers up for alot of Kuroky's selfish play. G1 of the International was merely the water reaching the tipping point. Like, Pupppey has to play both the 4 and the 5 positions, trying to maintain wards, smokes, counters, all while buying the mek while Kuroky gets his Blink Dagger/Force Staff. Na'vi played blind half the tournament, and when you play with a carry like Hvost who plays ultra aggressive, you'll find that he will tend to overextend and get himself killed alot. I was surprised that Hvost didn't die more than he did; he played much better this tournament than he ever has in any other tournament. He still made some game throwing mistakes, but I think you can attribute that also due to the fact that he almost never has any support from KKY.
Oh, I'm referring only to his refusal to listen to Puppey about lanes. I don't really blame the players for throws made in normal gameplay. Everybody makes mistakes, after all, and DotA is a team game.
|
The only time I remember Puppey being mad was when that team (MYM?) posted that big thing about V1lat and Starladder not keeping their promises at Starladder LAN finals (don't remember what season).
But yeah, Dota stuff doesn't really seem to get to him.
|
On August 15 2013 02:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
The only time I remember Puppey being mad was when that team (MYM?) posted that big thing about V1lat and Starladder not keeping their promises at Starladder LAN finals (don't remember what season).
But yeah, Dota stuff doesn't really seem to get to him.
Even then, he didn't seem mad, he just called them out on their bullshit.
|
On August 15 2013 01:45 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:39 TheTuna wrote:On August 15 2013 01:09 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 00:51 TheTuna wrote:
Booting any of the core trio who have placed Top 2 at The International for 3 years now would be nuts. People love to criticize XBOCT and claim that he is "the weakest link" but the fact is that he's a damn good player, and to lose a proven success for an unknown quantity is a bet no team should be willing to take.
I can't see Puppey being kicked as Puppey and Dendi are the face of Na'Vi to most of the team's fans. Firing either of them would be a PR disaster, especially since they have proven that they are still capable of playing the game at a very high level.
If XBOCT is smart he'll reassess the situation once he's gained some distance from the loss emotionally and realize the folly of rocking the boat based solely on emotion for a team which has earned him hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Kuroky being let go I could see as he seems to be the largest cause of internal strife among the team, but firing Puppey could be absolutely disastrous for Na'Vi in terms of retaining the massive fanbase they have come to enjoy. Hvost was having such major issues with Puppey that he ignored some of his calls in-game at the tournament. I don't think Puppey survives very long on the team if Hvost can't get over it. They honestly should have lost to Tongfu had it not been for fountain hooks; Hvost clearly fucked that game up for Na'vi by ignoring Puppey's call. And Kuroky is likely to be let go simply because of language issues. Hvost had a good tournament, but still made alot of bad mistakes that a carry player shouldn't make. Last TI2 was almost a complete joke; it was like the whole team was playing around the fact that he had an extremely limited hero pool. He's expanded his hero pool alot, and he's certainly been better, but I still wouldn't consider him a top 5 carry yet. I suppose if Xboct is personal friends with the team's higher-ups he might be able to get Puppey fired, but management has to recognize how insane it would be to cut such a popular player at the behest of another player who has proven that he will deliberately ignore instructions and ruin the team's strategy on a whim with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line. Xboct may have been with Na'Vi the longest, but Puppey and Dendi are by far the most valuable players on that team in terms of Na'Vi's "brand", if you will, and that may well be enough to protect Puppey even if Xboct wants him gone. Hvost has enough clout to get almost anyone kicked on that team except Dendi. Him and Zero go way back. If Hvost wants Puppey gone, he's gone. Period. Probably the biggest reason why Hvost is upset with Puppey is likely because of Puppey's relationship with Kuroky, as the two go way back. Kuroky is almost like a 2nd captain on the team. The fact that Puppey wasn't upset at Kuroky's call to GG game 1 should tell you everything.
sounds like a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing.
The job of the captain is to get mad at your teammates, or remain calm and composed, and do what you can to recover from it? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. This doesn't have to have anything to do with kuroky/puppey.
And honestly you make a lot of wild assumptions about how much power one player has to the team. Anyone would be a fool to throw away your most popular players who get excellent results too. 2nd in TI3 isnt bad at all.
Honestly, anyone with talent and the right motivation can change, and despite funnik and kuro doing some mediocre play in their respective heroes and roles, I believe they can fix them and move on. However, if there are personal issues its another thing. If they cant man up and forget them, then I guess its a pity such a strong team has to reform again
|
On August 15 2013 01:51 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:47 TheTuna wrote:On August 15 2013 01:45 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 01:39 TheTuna wrote:On August 15 2013 01:09 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 00:51 TheTuna wrote:
Booting any of the core trio who have placed Top 2 at The International for 3 years now would be nuts. People love to criticize XBOCT and claim that he is "the weakest link" but the fact is that he's a damn good player, and to lose a proven success for an unknown quantity is a bet no team should be willing to take.
I can't see Puppey being kicked as Puppey and Dendi are the face of Na'Vi to most of the team's fans. Firing either of them would be a PR disaster, especially since they have proven that they are still capable of playing the game at a very high level.
If XBOCT is smart he'll reassess the situation once he's gained some distance from the loss emotionally and realize the folly of rocking the boat based solely on emotion for a team which has earned him hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Kuroky being let go I could see as he seems to be the largest cause of internal strife among the team, but firing Puppey could be absolutely disastrous for Na'Vi in terms of retaining the massive fanbase they have come to enjoy. Hvost was having such major issues with Puppey that he ignored some of his calls in-game at the tournament. I don't think Puppey survives very long on the team if Hvost can't get over it. They honestly should have lost to Tongfu had it not been for fountain hooks; Hvost clearly fucked that game up for Na'vi by ignoring Puppey's call. And Kuroky is likely to be let go simply because of language issues. Hvost had a good tournament, but still made alot of bad mistakes that a carry player shouldn't make. Last TI2 was almost a complete joke; it was like the whole team was playing around the fact that he had an extremely limited hero pool. He's expanded his hero pool alot, and he's certainly been better, but I still wouldn't consider him a top 5 carry yet. I suppose if Xboct is personal friends with the team's higher-ups he might be able to get Puppey fired, but management has to recognize how insane it would be to cut such a popular player at the behest of another player who has proven that he will deliberately ignore instructions and ruin the team's strategy on a whim with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line. Xboct may have been with Na'Vi the longest, but Puppey and Dendi are by far the most valuable players on that team in terms of Na'Vi's "brand", if you will, and that may well be enough to protect Puppey even if Xboct wants him gone. Hvost has enough clout to get almost anyone kicked on that team except Dendi. Him and Zero go way back. Yeah, but is Zero willing to potentially torpedo the incredible popularity of Na'Vi just because Xboct can't act like a professional? Personally I thought that the call to GG game 1 at the 15 minute mark was incredibly smart, but that's just me. Zero will get rid of anyone that is toxic to the environment. He's not going to get rid of Hvost because Hvost is a personal friend of his. Basically Hvost is 100% protected no matter what. So the only way you can fix the situation is to remove the people who Hvost has issues with.
If things escalate, and ppy will leave with kuro, dendi with ppy and funnik with the rest, I don't see a powerhouse navi with a lackluster hvost + 4 new players.
However I don't see ppy leaving navi so I think its just kuro.
or maybe, and hopefully, this will all boil over soon, they will get over the fact that they lost an extra 620k(at game 5), and in a few weeks, everything is back to normal.
|
On August 15 2013 03:59 Ahzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2013 01:45 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 01:39 TheTuna wrote:On August 15 2013 01:09 superstartran wrote:On August 15 2013 00:51 TheTuna wrote:
Booting any of the core trio who have placed Top 2 at The International for 3 years now would be nuts. People love to criticize XBOCT and claim that he is "the weakest link" but the fact is that he's a damn good player, and to lose a proven success for an unknown quantity is a bet no team should be willing to take.
I can't see Puppey being kicked as Puppey and Dendi are the face of Na'Vi to most of the team's fans. Firing either of them would be a PR disaster, especially since they have proven that they are still capable of playing the game at a very high level.
If XBOCT is smart he'll reassess the situation once he's gained some distance from the loss emotionally and realize the folly of rocking the boat based solely on emotion for a team which has earned him hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Kuroky being let go I could see as he seems to be the largest cause of internal strife among the team, but firing Puppey could be absolutely disastrous for Na'Vi in terms of retaining the massive fanbase they have come to enjoy. Hvost was having such major issues with Puppey that he ignored some of his calls in-game at the tournament. I don't think Puppey survives very long on the team if Hvost can't get over it. They honestly should have lost to Tongfu had it not been for fountain hooks; Hvost clearly fucked that game up for Na'vi by ignoring Puppey's call. And Kuroky is likely to be let go simply because of language issues. Hvost had a good tournament, but still made alot of bad mistakes that a carry player shouldn't make. Last TI2 was almost a complete joke; it was like the whole team was playing around the fact that he had an extremely limited hero pool. He's expanded his hero pool alot, and he's certainly been better, but I still wouldn't consider him a top 5 carry yet. I suppose if Xboct is personal friends with the team's higher-ups he might be able to get Puppey fired, but management has to recognize how insane it would be to cut such a popular player at the behest of another player who has proven that he will deliberately ignore instructions and ruin the team's strategy on a whim with hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line. Xboct may have been with Na'Vi the longest, but Puppey and Dendi are by far the most valuable players on that team in terms of Na'Vi's "brand", if you will, and that may well be enough to protect Puppey even if Xboct wants him gone. Hvost has enough clout to get almost anyone kicked on that team except Dendi. Him and Zero go way back. If Hvost wants Puppey gone, he's gone. Period. Probably the biggest reason why Hvost is upset with Puppey is likely because of Puppey's relationship with Kuroky, as the two go way back. Kuroky is almost like a 2nd captain on the team. The fact that Puppey wasn't upset at Kuroky's call to GG game 1 should tell you everything. sounds like a lot of wild assumptions based on nothing. The job of the captain is to get mad at your teammates, or remain calm and composed, and do what you can to recover from it? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. This doesn't have to have anything to do with kuroky/puppey. And honestly you make a lot of wild assumptions about how much power one player has to the team. Anyone would be a fool to throw away your most popular players who get excellent results too. 2nd in TI3 isnt bad at all. Honestly, anyone with talent and the right motivation can change, and despite funnik and kuro doing some mediocre play in their respective heroes and roles, I believe they can fix them and move on. However, if there are personal issues its another thing. If they cant man up and forget them, then I guess its a pity such a strong team has to reform again
How's it wild assumptions when Hvost has already commented plenty of times how he dislikes having to communicate in English because of Kuroky?
|
Well, being the only real team in CIS dota right now (unless VP somehow sticks together after their drubbing in TI3) means that Na'Vi wouldn't have much in the way of issues trying to find good replacements if they booted 1 or 2 players. Not that I think they should but practically all of CIS are free agents right now.
|
Plus , with Na'Vi's pedigree, even if teams were going to stick together you'd imagine that Na'Vi could pry players away if they really wanted to.
|
|
|
On August 15 2013 04:06 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Plus , with Na'Vi's pedigree, even if teams were going to stick together you'd imagine that Na'Vi could pry players away if they really wanted to.
Agreed. See: Funn1k
|
And I have to imagine Goblak. If Puppey and Kuroky leave - or even if just Kuro leaves - Goblak seems like a natural fit. He's Ukrainian, he's got experience with the captaincy and he plays 4. Basically the perfect replacement for Puppey.
|
Really dislike dendis latest interview where he mentions that kuro told him to go for rosh just shows that dendi needs to speak out more if he in the situation knows better. Hope they dont split.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
