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On October 26 2013 11:07 SilverSkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 07:03 govie wrote:
Venomancer is OP or Broken. I pld him alot today, its too easy to get 2 1 2 ratio or higher. Needs a nerf maybe, sorry but this one is that good now. Veno is still squishy right? I know the poison stuff got buffed which is good cuz I hated getting dived and I don't get anything back when I throw everything I have.
Never felt like he was. Maybe because i use those wards as scoutwards to, so i dont get sneaked up upon in wierd spots. If u get PT's firsr, make m red, biggest squizyness is solved Its like playing towerdefense until u hit lvl 16 and then he becomes a really good agi hero when positioned well. His spells give u so many assists and lasthits (alot of ksing), now that lasthit part is important because ur score with venomancer isnt comparable with other peeps scores. Venomancer basically bypasses the reporting/commendingsystem at lowlevel Thats why i said he could be broken, seeing how hard it is not to die to much with other characters or get descent KDA's.
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The armlet change almost makes it a bottom tier item...
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Haven't played against brood yet? Is that free pathing broken?
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On October 26 2013 17:59 HazeB7onU wrote:
Haven't played against brood yet? Is that free pathing broken?
no, it just makes her a pain to gank
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on the flip side shes heaps fun to play now. still sucks as a hero but fun for screwing around
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On October 26 2013 16:58 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 11:07 SilverSkyLark wrote:On October 26 2013 07:03 govie wrote:
Venomancer is OP or Broken. I pld him alot today, its too easy to get 2 1 2 ratio or higher. Needs a nerf maybe, sorry but this one is that good now. Veno is still squishy right? I know the poison stuff got buffed which is good cuz I hated getting dived and I don't get anything back when I throw everything I have. Never felt like he was. Maybe because i use those wards as scoutwards to, so i dont get sneaked up upon in wierd spots. If u get PT's firsr, make m red, biggest squizyness is solved Its like playing towerdefense until u hit lvl 16 and then he becomes a really good agi hero when positioned well. His spells give u so many assists and lasthits (alot of ksing), now that lasthit part is important because ur score with venomancer isnt comparable with other peeps scores. Venomancer basically bypasses the reporting/commendingsystem at lowlevel Thats why i said he could be broken, seeing how hard it is not to die to much with other characters or get descent KDA's.
Oh yeah true. I've played the old school Gale/Poison Sting build (dates from way back 6.24). The ward build gives you added range to farm/harass while not risking getting burst hit. Though I think Veno can peak at around 11/12 especially when you get that Scepter fast cuz you can just be trigger happy with Poison Nova during ganks and still have it later for teamfights.
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wow the veno playstyles described make me sad
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so Troll now gains the same exp from denied creeps when he's ranged as when he's melee?
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
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* Day/Night length decreased from 6 to 4 minutes
* The following heroes now have the standard 800 night vision: Drow Ranger, Mirana, Puck, Leshrac, Enchantress, Ancient Apparition, Meepo and Treant Protector
Nooo....
I liked the unique aspect of certain heroes having better night vision. Heroes with long ranged abilities (Mirana, Puck, Enchantress, etc) it was really nice having that better night vision. Of course you can argue which heroes should have better night vision compared to which and I agree that most of those heroes had better night vision simply because of the "theme" of the hero (Mirana and Puck are good examples). However, I think theme should still play a bit of a role and if this hero's theme is that they're priest of the moon (or something) then I say it's fair that the hero should get better night vision.
I know for gameplay purposes, it'd be possibly better to have things more streamlined. It's sort of a flavor thing and I like certain heroes having certain unique aspects like having better night vision or faster base attack speed. While it may seem minor and it'd make more sense for everything to a bit more streamlined, it was something that just felt nice to be in the game (a few unique attributes certain heroes have).
Can no longer orb-attack while attack restricted (such as Ethereal or Frostbite)
And I was about to write a post in the SC section about how in other games like Dota (for example), there were a ton of interesting and unique things you can play around with.
Like, losing in SC2 to a cannon rush, marine scv pull, baneling bust (in terms of all ins) was not very fun. In terms of late game stuff (simply the opponent playing better), it's also not very intuitive or fun on how or why you lost the game for example.
In Dota, I was about to use an example of how I didn't know you could orb attack while frostbitten. I remember playing CM and using frost bite on Drow (this was after the drow buff too, which also made it more funnier) and then the Drow still able to attack me. Honestly, I have never been so glad to lose to something in a game because I didn't know you could do that and it made things much more interesting and intriguing. I was like, I can't wait to try that out myself!
In terms of losing in SC2 compared to losing in Dota, the main advantage Dota had was a lot of these mechanics were interesting and it's something you can understand easily after you lost to it (in the case of me playing as CM frost biting a Drow, then the Drow still attacking... I was impressed in a good way and excited to see that type of thing in the game; Compare that to in SC2, if you get cannon rushed or something, you just get disappointed and be like that's not an interesting thing to lose to).
So to take that thing out (one of those mechanics you probably didn't know about when you first started playing but you learned through someone using it against you or a teammate using it) is a bit disappointing.
Of course, for balance reasons, CM is kind of not super great nowadays and being able to orb attack out of frost bite made her disable even less appealing. Though, I think they could have buffed or nerfed or done anything a bit differently if that was the concern.
I'm a bit disappointed you can't do that anymore  . Again, all these small things, it makes the game more intriguing and interesting. In terms of balance reasons (like, is it fair for orb attacking heroes to be able to attack against CM for example?) they can balance those heroes specifically instead of removing a mechanic altogether IMO.
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On October 30 2013 11:39 Goldfish wrote:
Nooo....
I liked the unique aspect of certain heroes having better night vision.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Vision#Day_and_Night
This still exists. They just removed the oddball heroes. Drow having 1700 and Leshrac having 900 at night was too weird. And being able to create an entire team of 1800 vision heroes would be too effective with night occurring more often. (Drow Ranger, Mirana, Puck, Leshrac, Enchantress, Ancient Apparition, Meepo and Treant Protector leave a lot of room for an effective night sight line up)
That is why the night vision change was made on all those heroes.
On October 30 2013 11:39 Goldfish wrote:
I'm a bit disappointed you can't do that anymore . Again, all these small things, it makes the game more intriguing and interesting. In terms of balance reasons (like, is it fair for orb attacking heroes to be able to attack against CM for example?) they can balance those heroes specifically instead of removing a mechanic altogether IMO.
Being able to orb while attack restricted was imbalanced. A Drow Ranger or a Huskar could continue attacking while disarmed with Heaven's Halberd. Being unstoppable is not a balanced mechanic. Purge and Magic Immunity exist for a reason. You would either have to pick Omniknight to Repel them or buy a Diffusal for it, both options that are more costly than Ghost Scepter. And ghost scepter does not need a nerf nor do heroes need to be buffed around an inherently broken mechanic.
It is good that the change happened. Get used to it.
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On October 30 2013 12:16 aeroblaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 11:39 Goldfish wrote:
Nooo....
I liked the unique aspect of certain heroes having better night vision.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Vision#Day_and_NightThis still exists. They just removed the oddball heroes. Drow having 1700 and Leshrac having 900 at night was too weird. And being able to create an entire team of 1800 vision heroes would be too effective with night occurring more often. (Drow Ranger, Mirana, Puck, Leshrac, Enchantress, Ancient Apparition, Meepo and Treant Protector leave a lot of room for an effective night sight line up) That is why the night vision change was made on all those heroes. Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 11:39 Goldfish wrote:
I'm a bit disappointed you can't do that anymore . Again, all these small things, it makes the game more intriguing and interesting. In terms of balance reasons (like, is it fair for orb attacking heroes to be able to attack against CM for example?) they can balance those heroes specifically instead of removing a mechanic altogether IMO. Being able to orb while attack restricted was imbalanced. A Drow Ranger or a Huskar could continue attacking while disarmed with Heaven's Halberd. Being unstoppable is not a balanced mechanic. Purge and Magic Immunity exist for a reason. You would either have to pick Omniknight to Repel them or buy a Diffusal for it, both options that are more costly than Ghost Scepter. And ghost scepter does not need a nerf nor do heroes need to be buffed around an inherently broken mechanic. It is good that the change happened. Get used to it.
I'm 99% sure they couldn't attack through disarm. Ethereal/frostbite =/= disarm.
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On October 30 2013 12:16 aeroblaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 11:39 Goldfish wrote:
Nooo....
I liked the unique aspect of certain heroes having better night vision.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Vision#Day_and_NightThis still exists. They just removed the oddball heroes. Drow having 1700 and Leshrac having 900 at night was too weird. And being able to create an entire team of 1800 vision heroes would be too effective with night occurring more often. (Drow Ranger, Mirana, Puck, Leshrac, Enchantress, Ancient Apparition, Meepo and Treant Protector leave a lot of room for an effective night sight line up) That is why the night vision change was made on all those heroes. Nope, these are not oddball cases. All those heroes had thematic reasons to have increased night vision, Goldfish did mention this too. And not only it was good from a flavor side of things, it was also fine from a balance point of view. These heroes had increased night vision since forever in Dota 1 and I don't remember a single time when it caused any balance issues. Night vision is not that big of an advantage to draft your team around it. Also, night may be occurring more often now but it is also shorter, so it cancels each other.
I think they removed night vision from those heroes as an indirect buff to Night Stalker. This is a lazy approach, they could have buffed him in some other way without sacrificing flavor of the game.
Agree with Goldfish completely about this issue.
On October 30 2013 12:26 GentleDrill wrote:
I'm 99% sure they couldn't attack through disarm. Ethereal/frostbite =/= disarm.
Thats true, you could not attack while disarmed.
This change only affected Ethereal/Frostbite as far as I know, so it's more like a bug fix.
On October 30 2013 12:16 aeroblaster wrote:It is good that the change happened. Get used to it.
Many of us are not against changes. But changes for the sake of changes are not good either, they should serve some purpose. And while I'm fine with most changes in this patch, some of them were uncalled for.
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Also, does anyone else thinks that adding a ~10 sec delay you need to wait before you can use buyback would be a better change than current increase to your next respawn time?
From what I've read at many places, this change was done to discourage buying back and instantly rejoining the fight, i.e. to discourage 5 vs 6-7 team fights. But it also makes players more cautious/afraid to fight at later stages of the game. The respawn time becomes too long at that point.
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Yeah I'm sad that Meepo a Kobold, creature known for having night vision got a nerf to night vision, which removes some of the theme of the Hero, while others remained unchanged, like Slark.
Also, does anyone else thinks that adding a ~10 sec delay you need to wait before you can use buyback would be a better change than current increase to your next respawn time?
From what I've read at many places, this change was done to discourage buying back and instantly rejoining the fight, i.e. to discourage 5 vs 6-7 team fights. But it also makes players more cautious/afraid to fight at later stages of the game. The respawn time becomes too long at that point.
It's two different nerfs though, one is just plain nerf to Buyback, the other is removal of bad use of Buyback.
The latter many would agree is the better change, because of this. However your method also has it's positive sides of it. For example this would remove the ability for a Weaver to die and instantly get back into battle, with Buyback + Time Lapse.
Any of you think it would be a cool mechanic to have the Buyback cost be a reflection of the remaining time left before your respawn? Meaning that a Buyback used where your halfway through your death timer, it would remove half the cost.
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On October 30 2013 13:41 MyrMindservant wrote:
Also, does anyone else thinks that adding a ~10 sec delay you need to wait before you can use buyback would be a better change than current increase to your next respawn time?
From what I've read at many places, this change was done to discourage buying back and instantly rejoining the fight, i.e. to discourage 5 vs 6-7 team fights. But it also makes players more cautious/afraid to fight at later stages of the game. The respawn time becomes too long at that point.
I'd prefer if the extended respawn was tied to the farming timer, so you get punished because of the buyback instead of after when your death has nothing to do with the fact you bought back earlier.
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On October 30 2013 13:41 MyrMindservant wrote:
Also, does anyone else thinks that adding a ~10 sec delay you need to wait before you can use buyback would be a better change than current increase to your next respawn time?
From what I've read at many places, this change was done to discourage buying back and instantly rejoining the fight, i.e. to discourage 5 vs 6-7 team fights. But it also makes players more cautious/afraid to fight at later stages of the game. The respawn time becomes too long at that point.
I thought the change was done to discourage buying back and farming/pushing and to make it still used to rejoin fights. Isn't that the point of disabling unreliable gold gain but not reliable gold gain.
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On October 30 2013 18:11 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Also, does anyone else thinks that adding a ~10 sec delay you need to wait before you can use buyback would be a better change than current increase to your next respawn time?
From what I've read at many places, this change was done to discourage buying back and instantly rejoining the fight, i.e. to discourage 5 vs 6-7 team fights. But it also makes players more cautious/afraid to fight at later stages of the game. The respawn time becomes too long at that point. It's two different nerfs though, one is just plain nerf to Buyback, the other is removal of bad use of Buyback. The latter many would agree is the better change, because of this. However your method also has it's positive sides of it. For example this would remove the ability for a Weaver to die and instantly get back into battle, with Buyback + Time Lapse.
I'm not sure we understood each other correctly. Did you say that my idea is a general nerf and what was implemented is a specific nerf against bad use? Because to me it looks exactly the opposite.
Increasing your respawn time after the next death is a general nerf while not allowing to buy back instantly after a death is a specific nerf to being able to rejoin a team fight.
On October 30 2013 18:11 ejozl wrote:
Any of you think it would be a cool mechanic to have the Buyback cost be a reflection of the remaining time left before your respawn? Meaning that a Buyback used where your halfway through your death timer, it would remove half the cost. This sounds interesting and logical, but it would also work as a buff to the buyback mechanics. And I don't think it needs any buffs atm. Maybe your idea would work if it's used as a part of some larger change/rework to the mechanics.
Edit:
On October 30 2013 18:47 hydrogg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2013 13:41 MyrMindservant wrote:
Also, does anyone else thinks that adding a ~10 sec delay you need to wait before you can use buyback would be a better change than current increase to your next respawn time?
From what I've read at many places, this change was done to discourage buying back and instantly rejoining the fight, i.e. to discourage 5 vs 6-7 team fights. But it also makes players more cautious/afraid to fight at later stages of the game. The respawn time becomes too long at that point. I thought the change was done to discourage buying back and farming/pushing and to make it still used to rejoin fights. Isn't that the point of disabling unreliable gold gain but not reliable gold gain. There were no official explanation AFAIK, so we can't know for sure. My view on this is based on what I've read at forums and I think I've also seen it in an explanation/interview with some progamer (but I don't remember where exactly).
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I see the new Buyback as a risk that if it pays off and you used it at a crucial and correct time, where you will not just die, you won't be affected. However if you die, you will.
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EPT
