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On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites.
The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand.
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On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand.
that is a result of lag thou
I dunno I liked Inferno when D3 was released, I made progress at a steady pase. After the nerfs everything was about dps and dps only (I play barb for reference)
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On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand.
Same with Diablo and stuns. And then all the great glitches with Magda's invuln bubble!
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On October 09 2013 00:44 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand. Same with Diablo and stuns. And then all the great glitches with Magda's invuln bubble!
Yeah those two were particularly annoying. Hopefully, Blizzard will have some extensive play testing on the bosses to not repeat that experience this time around.
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On October 09 2013 00:44 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand. Same with Diablo and stuns. And then all the great glitches with Magda's invuln bubble!
Plz explain, what are those 2 about? 
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On October 09 2013 02:22 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 00:44 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand. Same with Diablo and stuns. And then all the great glitches with Magda's invuln bubble! Plz explain, what are those 2 about?
Try stunning diablo while he is about to grab you from the skeletal cages or when he is about to hit a cutscene. Also try stunning Magda just as she is about to go invulnerable. Usually the fight keeps going and the mob becomes invulnerable until it hits the next "cycle" of it's abilities. Basically, they didn't account for the mob being stunned when they perform the logic for hitting a threshold in their HP.
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On October 09 2013 02:52 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 02:22 Sek-Kuar wrote:On October 09 2013 00:44 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand. Same with Diablo and stuns. And then all the great glitches with Magda's invuln bubble! Plz explain, what are those 2 about? Try stunning diablo while he is about to grab you from the skeletal cages or when he is about to hit a cutscene. Also try stunning Magda just as she is about to go invulnerable. Usually the fight keeps going and the mob becomes invulnerable until it hits the next "cycle" of it's abilities. Basically, they didn't account for the mob being stunned when they perform the logic for hitting a threshold in their HP.
Oh, so I have experienced that with Magdha. Thanks. That warp with Siegebreaker sounds very funny, gotta try that one day
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On October 08 2013 16:51 DODswe4 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand. that is a result of lag thou I dunno I liked Inferno when D3 was released, I made progress at a steady pase. After the nerfs everything was about dps and dps only (I play barb for reference)
Had alot of fun with the early release of D3 as a DH. You can basically avoid every hit that deals alot of damage, since those attacks usually aren't instant. But at some point there where gamebreakers for my playstyle, that I based on dodging and had to drop skills and switch equip to adapt to the game. First Vortex and Teleport that delivered instant hits and I had not to much life leech to make up for those. And later those horrible enrage timers.
Whoever had that idea ... people are slow and need time to beat monsters, lets show them they need better equip and build a "you need so much dps to go on wall".
I liked my equipment setup and how it worked well together with the skills and enjoyed this combination alot and suddenly "We are sorry your playstyle that we encouraged you to go for with specialized skills and equip is not viable, you need to do more damage in less time, please switch everything up"
Hit to many equipment walls at the end that forced me to get certain style and level of equipment. And while they made the game easier over the time by having you see where those mortals fly for example (was so easy to predict anyway). It still had some of the equipment walls, just the ways there were easier and those didn't needed to be easier in my opinion.
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On October 09 2013 10:22 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 16:51 DODswe4 wrote:On October 08 2013 14:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 07:48 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On October 08 2013 06:04 willoc wrote:On October 08 2013 05:31 LaNague wrote:
pve needs to be fun not hard, they made that mistake at release allready.
Then they made the game easier, but not more fun. I wouldn't agree that they made it "hard" on release. I would rather say they made it a "grind". There wasn't too much in the way of a "challenge" in inferno. It was just a straight gear-check for items that had a super-low chance to drop. This was one of the saddest changes to the game from previous iterations that strongly rewarded player-skill and tactics. Early Inferno would have been several times better if they didn't had: - Vortex - Jailer - Waller - Reflect Damage - Nightmarish - Enrage Timers - Increasing respawn timers - Offscreen charges - Dodging an animation actually meant dodging a hit - Enemies that you couldn't outrun Then Inferno could have been fun and skillfully difficult. Act Bosses were actually enjoyable because they had patterns that you could follow and learn. Normal enemies...well, they were designed to cause unavoidable death. Agreed. Vortex isn't that bad once you learn how to dodge it but they made it really not obvious (like the noob-friendly explosion radius and mortar pre-strike indicators). The dodge animation I know was a result of their "miracle network coding" and while the game does feel more responsive than it's predecessors, there is very little effective dodging in the game any more. Spears hit you when you are 2-3 bodies away and running away from a mob that just attacked you won't work unless you run away about 3-4 bodies from the mob. Only dodging left in the game is the boss fights (which I am thankful for) and Frozen-affix elites. The shenanigans with Siegebreaker and freeze are hilarious, though. He can start the grab move, be frozen for 5 minutes, you can be the entire map away, and suddenly you warp into his hand. that is a result of lag thou I dunno I liked Inferno when D3 was released, I made progress at a steady pase. After the nerfs everything was about dps and dps only (I play barb for reference) Had alot of fun with the early release of D3 as a DH. You can basically avoid every hit that deals alot of damage, since those attacks usually aren't instant. But at some point there where gamebreakers for my playstyle, that I based on dodging and had to drop skills and switch equip to adapt to the game. First Vortex and Teleport that delivered instant hits and I had not to much life leech to make up for those. And later those horrible enrage timers. Whoever had that idea ... people are slow and need time to beat monsters, lets show them they need better equip and build a "you need so much dps to go on wall". I liked my equipment setup and how it worked well together with the skills and enjoyed this combination alot and suddenly "We are sorry your playstyle that we encouraged you to go for with specialized skills and equip is not viable, you need to do more damage in less time, please switch everything up" Hit to many equipment walls at the end that forced me to get certain style and level of equipment. And while they made the game easier over the time by having you see where those mortals fly for example (was so easy to predict anyway). It still had some of the equipment walls, just the ways there were easier and those didn't needed to be easier in my opinion.
Oh please. So you couldn't use your subpar skillbuild to progress through INFERNO anymore? Nobody forced you to. If you insist on using mediocre skill builds, you sure can but its a way bigger grind, as it should be. Of course the system will reward you for using a good skill build as opposed to something where you just slap things together.
No, I'm not saying there was lots of choice as far as skillbuilds went, especially when your gear was bad, but there was some choice. Maybe you just couldnt adapt to it. Some of us did self found solo inferno, and made progress since launch. It required you to tweak your build to be exactly optimal for you and your current gear, but progress was possible. Vortex, wallers and teleporters were manageable, even if a bit tedious in some zones. IMO only pre nerf soul rippers were truly unfair. At least the game was challenging, and that kept ME going for a good while, even if the challenge aspect was not optimally tuned.
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is it normal to datamine all the information about an expanison before its announced? Im not complaining or anything but why doesn't blizzard test all its shit on a private server or somethin
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On October 14 2013 04:07 Assault_1 wrote:is it normal to datamine all the information about an expanison before its announced? Im not complaining or anything but why doesn't blizzard test all its shit on a private server or somethin
it is quite comon
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didnt they hint that they will remove hell? so after nm act4, you hit lvl 50. then, you get 50->60 in act5 nm, then enter "inferno" (which is just the old hell). after that, you start "torment" (which is the old inferno).
or something like that.
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On October 14 2013 09:37 Black Gun wrote:didnt they hint that they will remove hell? so after nm act4, you hit lvl 50. then, you get 50->60 in act5 nm, then enter "inferno" (which is just the old hell). after that, you start "torment" (which is the old inferno). or something like that.
You're probably partly right but when i read "on Torment difficulty or higher.". I think they will just rename Hell Torment flavorewise. Having Hell and Inferno difficulty doesn't make any sense since both those word have the exact same definition. it doesn't really feel like progressing when you go from hell to inferno just word-wise.
Normal - Nightmare - Torment - Inferno seems more logical than the current system.
Just my 2 cents though, I could be wrong like I often am
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Ahhh. Yes, that would make sense seeing as those achievements already exist for Hell difficulty.
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yea, I was bored and test leveled another character to 60 testing some -lvl req gear I was saving for Crusader and playing solely on MP10 normal/nm/hell, was already Paragon Level 2 and a half by the time I beat Hell. So adding another act to force us to grind thru 3 times before Inferno would be really annoying. So a Normal > Torment > Inferno = just right.
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Tbh Torment sounds like it should be the last act. The one where you get your ass kicked, like on original Inferno, making your game experience a real torment.
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On October 15 2013 07:12 ViperPL wrote:
Tbh Torment sounds like it should be the last act. The one where you get your ass kicked, like on original Inferno, making your game experience a real torment.
It would be so much better that anything past Normal was hard. Right now it's "cruise through Normal/Nightmare/Start of hell". I mean, for the average player, even in self-drop, it's that easy. You will die here and there but still, quite easy. If you buy stuff on the AH then it's just a joke. Until later in Hell (self-drop) where you will have to turn your brain on or Inferno otherwise.
You don't even have the pleasure of building your custom char one level at a time because you can switch everything around anytime you want.
At least in D2, nightmare had immune guys and you were building your unique character (unique to you, not that you didn't mostly follow builds).
If they add a 5th difficulty level then i don't know what to say. If they do some swaparoo with Hell/Inferno/Torment, why?
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A new difficulty setting, or renaming Hell/Inferno to avoid the confusion, both of those decisions may be wise. It depends on how long new act is, time to go 60-70, etc.
But damn, Torment is a stupid name. I'd rather keep both Hell and Inferno than rename one of them to that. Although they are different names for the same thing, at least they sound ok individually.
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On October 14 2013 12:01 Burrfoot wrote:
yea, I was bored and test leveled another character to 60 testing some -lvl req gear I was saving for Crusader and playing solely on MP10 normal/nm/hell, was already Paragon Level 2 and a half by the time I beat Hell. So adding another act to force us to grind thru 3 times before Inferno would be really annoying. So a Normal > Torment > Inferno = just right.
I think they are going to do Normal > Torment > Inferno like you said.
I think doing everything 4+times is not to so good.
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EPT
