EPTMonk - Builds/Discussion - Page 58
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zomgE
498 Posts
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
On June 12 2012 20:30 Slayer91 wrote: While it's true that HP isn't as good as restances and armour by a long shot, its still a darn lot better than dodge, dodge is just basically shit, which in turn makes dex, even with seize the initiative, basically a crap stat. Yes it increases your damage, but damage on a weapon and weapon speed is so much better than dex is not even worth considering in a lot of cases. Dex should really be something that you have just because an item has the stat on it, not something you should aim for, unless your very under-geared. Vitality on monks is underrated, while not as good as on other classes because of the flat healing, it doesn't mean that it's a bad stat. It still scales with dodge, Armour and resistance. Also the more health you have, the longer you could survive, which means cool-downs come up more, which in turn makes you more survivable, ie health scales with cool downs as well. As an example, put it this way, until you can stand toe to toe with an enemy forever it also increases your damage because it lengthens the time you can hit the mob without having to pull back and kite, it lengthens the time your hitting a mob meaning your getting more life on hit, and the mob is hitting you more often so your Armour and resistance is having a bigger effect, and then your dodge and block is procing more as a net amount. Plus you buy more time between cooldownsAll your healing is flat, life of hit, regen, peaceful repose, breath of heaven, transcendence. ALL of it is based on flat values, meaning HP is almost useless. Elite fights often last 30 seconds+ meaning its a battle of your mitigationxhealing+total EHP versus their DPS. Having 20k more hp obviously helps very little and less and less the longer the fight goes on, meanwhiel resists and armour help slightly less in the first burst of damage and then are almost everything as the fight goes on. The reason barbarians stack HP is because they have %HP based healing, the main one revenge relies on being in melee range of a lot of things which is another good thing to have high HP until it strats to proc. The reason you'd gem dex is because aside from the armour and dodge which obviously helps Dex significantly increases your damage output which shortens the length of fights, sometimes by a lot when you consider 3 second bursts while invul. Long fights not only take lots of time but also increase chance of some bullshit jail+arcane while serenity on CD, or losing focus for a second and getting mortar instagibbed, etcetc. Also, generally even if their DPS is slightly above your healing output your total EHP will outlast that as long as the fight doesn't go too long. Vit doesn't really do a whole lot for your survivability at all. The only reasons I can think of to stack a certain hp value is to tank belials hit without getting 1 shot and azomodans fireball. (and diablos cage, but I think that gets you to 1 hp, right?) but even then resists and armour still let you do that and only belials 1 hit is really important azmodans fireball aren't that big a deal. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Vit lets you take more, true, it lets you tank more ONCE, once you take that 4, or so hits it becomes completely worthless in the entire fight after that. That 20 k was all you're getting, buying time inbetween cooldowns well you can always run away, it's only going to buy time ONCE. Dodge completely avoids damage I have no idea why you think its bad. You get "less" at high dex because there are fewer incoming attacks. 1% dodge at 50% is 2x as good as 1% at 0%. And we're not talking about weapon. Everyone knows you want a weapon with high DPS and attack speed. But for ALL YOUR OTHER SLOTS perhaps? By stacking vitality and ignoring dex you're doing exactly what makes vit a relatively poor stat - making the fight last longer. I have no idea what you're thinking. Also once you have your act on "farm" dex one of the best stats to increase your farm speed, so you don't have to completely do over your gear if you don't want to spend 5 minutes on every elite camp on an act you outgear. I'm currently farming act 3 5 stack spider-->azmodan with FoThunderclap, bladestorm and overawe and it's really damn fast even if you die a bunchif you don't want to skip certain elite packs+affixes (mortar illusionist arcane occulist sup) the speed you do everything especially bosses more than makes up for it. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:04 Slayer91 wrote: Dodge isnt' shit, damage isn't shit, seize the initative isn't shit. All the monks who cleared diablo and did 5 stack NV act 4 runs seem to have ~1.4k+ dex and ~800 vit or less. Vit lets you take more, true, it lets you tank more ONCE, once you take that 4, or so hits it becomes completely worthless in the entire fight after that. That 20 k was all you're getting, buying time inbetween cooldowns well you can always run away, it's only going to buy time ONCE. Dodge completely avoids damage I have no idea why you think its bad. You get "less" at high dex because there are fewer incoming attacks. 1% dodge at 50% is 2x as good as 1% at 0%. And we're not talking about weapon. Everyone knows you want a weapon with high DPS and attack speed. But for ALL YOUR OTHER SLOTS perhaps? By stacking vitality and ignoring dex you're doing exactly what makes vit a relatively poor stat - making the fight last longer. I have no idea what you're thinking. Also once you have your act on "farm" dex one of the best stats to increase your farm speed, so you don't have to completely do over your gear if you don't want to spend 5 minutes on every elite camp on an act you outgear. I'm currently farming act 3 5 stack spider-->azmodan with FoThunderclap, bladestorm and overawe and it's really damn fast even if you die a bunchif you don't want to skip certain elite packs+affixes (mortar illusionist arcane occulist sup) the speed you do everything especially bosses more than makes up for it. Didn't say damage or seize the initiative is bad, read what i said before raging at me. Which monks cleared diablo isn't a definitive proof, lots of it was done with exploits such as the old shield mantra activation using infinite spirit from sweeping winds procing quickening rune. Plus the skill of the actual player, insane items from ah with very high resistances and armor, and the fact that you don't need a perfect build and items to complete soft-core all make this argument fairly weak, oh an 1.4k of dex is not a lot at all on perfect gear, kinda proves my point. I was talking about the perceived idea that dex is a lot better than vitality, i was simply pointing out that this is false. Although i completely admit its Dependant on the persons gear. The fact it only buys time once is not only not true, it also doesn't mean it isn't good. For a start if you have said 500k health to the extreme, you could practically stand toe to toe with mobs on every fight, meaning you could do full damage. Take this down a few notches, the logic still holds but you do have to kite at some point. Also you say it only effects you once, i have over 40k health on my monk, i often over-heal with transcendence, breath of heaven, potions and life on hit, this isn't optimal. This is because i have to heal because i get back into "possible one shot on next hit". What about when your fozen? doesn't matter how much damage and life on hit you have, if you get caught out in a frozen and the mob can deal more than your 25k health in that time, vitality is looking pretty good here. what about when you get jailed or vortex'd or tel-ported on, does the rule "just kite more" apply here? Also even if you never gain back to full health, if a burst damage of a mob say does 30k health dmg, if you have less life than that you're dead, if you have more life than that, maybe you wont return to that full 60k health, but your not dead, so it's worth it. Think about it. As for dodge, its bad because it's a) its a bad tanking stat b) most monks have enough dex that they gain very little from it. Sorry I really should have been more specific, dodge from dex once you have average monk gear is bad. It's a bad tanking state a) because it's inconsistent and random, and also because it doesn't scale with any damage mitigation or vitality, only healing and cool-downs(to some degree), but only in a random sense | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:24 UdderChaos wrote: dodge is just basically shit, which in turn makes dex, even with seize the initiative, basically a crap stat. On June 12 2012 23:24 UdderChaos wrote: Didn't say dodge or damage or seize the imitative is bad, read what i said before raging at me wat I haven't had experienced getting bursted by anything that isn't dodgeable or easy to see coming. arcane beams avoid those. Frozen avoid that. Jailed vortex desecrate - serenity that. It's usually survivable anyway though. The main burst I experience is subjugators//blood clan occulist elites who do over 20k damage per hit (can't remember what it is with keen eye and 11.5k armour, but 936 resist all regardless), but they hit fast as well so you just basically have to dodge and split them up and use mystic ally well. On June 12 2012 23:24 UdderChaos wrote:Plus the skill of the actual player, insane items from ah with very high resistances and armor, and the fact that you don't need a perfect build and items to complete soft-core all make this argument fairly weak, oh an 1.4k of dex is not a lot at all on perfect gear, kinda proves my point. Proves what point? If you say dex is a crap stat, but people can finish the hardest content there is more or less (very hard elite packs) with clearly imperfect gear and low vit, what's your point? Are you playing hardcore and massively overcompensating vit because death is permanent? Because I wasn't aware we were talking about hardcore. Hardcore is a whole different ballpark because you basically have to overgear content because shit happens or lag happens and you instant die. In which case I say yes vit is fantastic because it allows room for error which isnt important in "softcore". In "softcore" the aim is to complete the content with the minimal gear necessary and then later as fast as possible both of which dexterity is far better at. (obviously resist/armour/loh/IAS/weapon DPS all important too. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
Yeah i didnt mean to include dodge in that sentence, read my edit. On June 12 2012 23:38 Slayer91 wrote: I haven't had experienced getting bursted by anything that isn't dodgeable or easy to see coming. arcane beams avoid those. Frozen avoid that. Jailed vortex desecrate - serenity that. It's usually survivable anyway though. The main burst I experience is subjugators//blood clan occulist elites who do over 20k damage per hit (can't remember what it is with keen eye and 11.5k armour, but 936 resist all regardless), but they hit fast as well so you just basically have to dodge and split them up and use mystic ally well. Right so everything is easily dodgeable and no one dies on soft-core, got it. And no one would ever dream of resetting certain combinations. On June 12 2012 23:38 Slayer91 wrote: Proves what point? If you say dex is a crap stat, but people can finish the hardest content there is more or less (very hard elite packs) with clearly imperfect gear and low vit, what's your point? Are you playing hardcore and massively overcompensating vit because death is permanent? Because I wasn't aware we were talking about hardcore. Hardcore is a whole different ballpark because you basically have to overgear content because shit happens or lag happens and you instant die. In which case I say yes vit is fantastic because it allows room for error which isnt important in "softcore". In "softcore" the aim is to complete the content with the minimal gear necessary and then later as fast as possible both of which dexterity is far better at. (obviously resist/armour/loh/IAS/weapon DPS all important too. You seem to latch on the absolutes a bit too easy. There is a balance. There is a balance between dieing and doing as much damage as possible to get an optimally fast clear. There is a balance between dex increasing your damage and health prolonging a fight allowing you to damage more often, and being safer, meaning you die less, hence less time running back and not doing more damage. | ||
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Charger
United States2405 Posts
Anyway, I made it to 60, geared up a little bit (wow gearing 2 chars is expensive) but I still don't have a good, solid build down really (I don't think). Can someone post their build in inferno and some notes on what I should be after when gearing up? I would be much appreciated and would be happy to return the favor if any of you roll WD as your next class.  I know I need LoH (only like 600 or so atm) and high resistance so I stacked fire resistance and am using OWE. I am using a 1 handed fist weap and a shield. Guess I can just link my current build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aYgXjh!XUZ!aacaca. Doesn't seem to mesh well with each other and in inferno I noticed my mystic ally is constantly dying now. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:51 UdderChaos wrote: Yeah i didnt mean to include dodge in that sentence, read my edit. Right so everything is easily dodgeable and no one dies on soft-core, got it. And no one would ever dream of resetting certain combinations. You seem to latch on the absolutes a bit too easy. There is a balance. There is a balance between dieing and doing as much damage as possible to get an optimally fast clear. There is a balance between dex increasing your damage and health prolonging a fight allowing you to damage more often, and being safer, meaning you die less, hence less time running back and not doing more damage. Not everything is easily dodgeable, but the things that CAN be dodged HAVE to be dodged because wether you have 45k hp ot 30k hp they will kill you if you don't. Having 45k hp allows more room for error, thats all. People die in soft-core all the time. I almost never reset combinations (except now when I definitely can kill basically everything in act 3 with the safe build, but if I'm farming with overawe and FoT I'm not going to spend 20 min dying on packs that are really really hard to kill and right outside the waypoint) but I have spent 30 mins+ on killing some combinations but it was definitely a practice/learning experience and dying/ressing doesn't help because losing all your buffs is worse than having to wait for a few cds to get your hp back. Yes, vit is useful, you're safer, you may die less, you should always look for it on items. However you're saying that vit is underrated and dex is "basically a crap stat" when I completely disagree. If someone is struggling in inferno there is NO need for vit to clear the content. Yes you might die a lot but you'll die a lot anyway. However to get the bare minimum to clear inferno you need certain amounts of attack speed, resistances, armour, life on hit, and preferably DPS. If you want to be safer to farm easier sure, but that doesn't mean you say "get more vit" to some guy who literally cannot clear the content, because vit matters very little, if someone is trying to get enough to clear act 2 inferno, worrying about keeping his hp over 35 k or something way more than he needs is just making him waste more time farming better quality gear instead of getting cheaper gear with the mort important stats. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:15 Slayer91 wrote: Not everything is easily dodgeable, but the things that CAN be dodged HAVE to be dodged because wether you have 45k hp ot 30k hp they will kill you if you don't. Having 45k hp allows more room for error, thats all. People die in soft-core all the time. I almost never reset combinations (except now when I definitely can kill basically everything in act 3 with the safe build, but if I'm farming with overawe and FoT I'm not going to spend 20 min dying on packs that are really really hard to kill and right outside the waypoint) but I have spent 30 mins+ on killing some combinations but it was definitely a practice/learning experience and dying/ressing doesn't help because losing all your buffs is worse than having to wait for a few cds to get your hp back. Yes, vit is useful, you're safer, you may die less, you should always look for it on items. However you're saying that vit is underrated and dex is "basically a crap stat" when I completely disagree. If someone is struggling in inferno there is NO need for vit to clear the content. Yes you might die a lot but you'll die a lot anyway. However to get the bare minimum to clear inferno you need certain amounts of attack speed, resistances, armour, life on hit, and preferably DPS. If you want to be safer to farm easier sure, but that doesn't mean you say "get more vit" to some guy who literally cannot clear the content, because vit matters very little, if someone is trying to get enough to clear act 2 inferno, worrying about keeping his hp over 35 k or something way more than he needs is just making him waste more time farming better quality gear instead of getting cheaper gear with the mort important stats. yes but in your example, struggling to clear inferno act 2, means he doesn't have enough armor and resistances, unless he took 0 dex and vit they don't really come into it. | ||
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Zedders
Canada450 Posts
I've been reading this thread for awhile now and it's quite hard to gather information on what it is that people seek when buying monk gear. I think Diablo 3 is made so that you must alter your skills based on what items you have, which is a complete reversal of Diablo 2 [have a planned out skill tree/stats and THEN find the best items] I think it would be very useful to see what monks(Inferno lvl 60) look for in each set of gear. You think maybe Blizzard will release AH stats? :D It'd be useful to know what the difference in price a stat would take over another stat. Such as +Life% over +Vit or +Fire Resist over All resist etc. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
-Life on hit (at least 600~ I'd say) -Attack speed (>1.7 Attacks per second) -Resistances (>500) -Armour (>5000) -HP (>20k) Dex (>1000 prefered) Gearing is a huge part of diablo don't expect it to be done for you. | ||
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Zedders
Canada450 Posts
On June 13 2012 02:37 Slayer91 wrote: You need to make your own conclusions to some extent. The basics are always: -Life on hit (at least 600~ I'd say) -Attack speed (>1.7 Attacks per second) -Resistances (>500) -Armour (>5000) -HP (>20k) Dex (>1000 prefered) Gearing is a huge part of diablo don't expect it to be done for you. But see that's only what you think. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
But yes the exact amount of LoH, AS, dex, resist, armor, and hp you need are up to skill and playstyle. There's also a huge difference between barely able to clear something for the first time and to consistently farm. | ||
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
You want dex + double res on all your gear, plus the gear specific attribute. The really high dex stuff goes to DH because they can afford it, so stick with 150ish dex + 80 vit stuff by convenience. Now, attributes to look for: Gloves: Attack speed Bracers: Ranged % reduction (ranged -dmg%) Helm: Socket or Block% with Helm of Command (these got cheaper, probably due to crafting exploits) Chest: Elite -dmg% Rings/amulet: LoHit, attack speed, ranged/elite reduction.. you have to get lucky. Belt/shoulders: Those got really expensive, so probably settle for some dex, high vit, double resist/armor. Boots: Forget movement speed, overrated for monks, way too expensive. Grab 200+dex, 100+vit, 100+ total resist, maybe even armor. Much cheaper than other slots for what you get. Shield: Tough one. You either get a really expensive block% + 3-4k shield, or grab a cheaper one for stats. Hard to shop for. Weapon: Attackspeed, LoHit, but those got ridiculously expensive. Probably settle for attack speed + dps and get lucky on jewelry; you can't get a good weapon on a budget. If I had to give points to stats, it would look something like this: Dex 10, Vit 4, Armor 1-1.5, Resist 12, Life Regen 0.5, elite -dmg% 100, ranged -dmg% 65, melee -dmg% 50 I doubt any good monk greatly differs from these, but obviously it also depends on what gear you already have. LoHit/attack speed is usually not a tradeoff, except on rings/amulets, but since you very rarely have two good amulets, it doesn't really matter. ps. The reason to go for ranged instead of melee is because ranged stuff is not affected by resolve/blind and hurts a lot more. | ||
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slained
Canada966 Posts
With 1700 dex, we're getting 52% dodge, meaning we're certainly going to not take 4 hits in a roll. Less than 5% chance of that happening. Not using mantra of evasion gives us 37% dodge meaning we're gonna be taking 4 hits in a roll, 15% of the time. Thats 3 times more often. Notice I used the word often, since it is inevitable we're going to be taking 4 unlucky hits in a roll. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
not really. Multiplicative scaling is pretty bullshit meaning getting bare minimum balance values of resist armour and hp is basically required and the same thing with initail life on hit//attack speed and DPS in terms of dex/as/weapon dmg. I've yet to see someone post a pic of their inferno monk with values less than these and doing well, and 1 or 2 values significantly higher. The closest you'll find is DW monks with 2 sick life on hit weapons and relatively low armour. And also saying "that's only what you think" and then adding absolutely no insight doesn't really contribute to the thread. At least what I said works and all you've said is "but how do you know?". Because of experience and the way the numbers work out, what more do you want?? Also even without blind/resolve if you use deadly reach automatically you won't get zerged by melees the way ranged do which makes melee reduction not too important. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jaFkT.jpg) Glass cannon monk is best monk. Durable as a piece paper and occasionally one shotted, but sub 2 minute Diablo kills are worth the sacrifice | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
You can dodge any spell and most attacks with it. Example 1: Your jailed and the leets proc frozen. Right before the orbs explode do a dashing strike, if you time it correctly it will make you invulnerable during the frozen orb hit, you take no damage and are not frozen. Note: Dashing Strike also counters Jailor, You can move your dashing strike distance while jailed. This helps if you are against Arcane/Jailor. When the Arcane line is just about to hit you, dashing strike over it. Think of it as jump rope. Hands down I value this spell over serenity. It gives you invulnerability at choice with no cooldown, it just takes some skill to pull off. I use quicksilver for it so it becomes spammable at 10 spirit. Also those big things in Act 3 that 1-shot you with a super powerful 2-legged attack, dashing strike before it hits the ground, you are now invulnerable the whole fight. Also if some of you are using firestorm/resolve, the dash from this spell will be able to make your firestorm last for two to three packs down the line saving spirit. I would argue that it is the best skill a monk has in terms of survivability. I just rolled a HC monk, and I am never taking it off my right click. | ||
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