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On June 12 2012 02:27 wwiv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:10 Pwere wrote:
Slayer, the diminishing return means this:
Going from 0 to 3000 armor gives you about 50% absorb (or 0 to 300 resist, they work on exactly the same scale 1:10). Going from 3000 to 6000 gives you 33% more (6k is 66%, meaning that you receive 33% less damage). So clearly the 2nd 3k wasn't nearly as good. 9k? 75%. 12k, 80%, and so on. Those numbers aren't exactly accurate because we don't know the exact monster level, but the diminishing return is there.
look at it from this perspective, every 100 resistance improves your damage reduction by 10% at 700 resistance, you have 70% damage reduction, you take 30% damage at 800 resistance, you have 73% damage reduction, you take 27% damage 30-27=3% which is 10% of 30. there is no diminishing return This is not the correct formula. The first 100 doesn't give you 10% but 25%. 300 is 50%, not 27%. Don't worry, I did my homework.
And slayers, obviously the way you count it seems to have no diminishing return, but going from 5 secs to 10 secs is a much better improvement than 10 to 15. That's what I'm getting at.
As for 700, obviously it's a completely arbitrary number, and I never said to not get more. I said that if you have more, you probably forgot a better stat somewhere, but hey, it's the gear you're stuck with, we don't have the luxury of upgrading that often. It just seems to be a number where most people end up, and it's a "good enough" number to farm act 3. I mentioned that the point was balance, but since it's easier but more expensive to get resists than armor for monks, shopping for dex/armor is a good way to gear up.
But anyway, we're getting lost in semantics here. You can plug in your numbers in a sheet like this:
D3 EHP Calculator , and see for yourself.On June 12 2012 03:04 xZiGGY wrote:
I thought dex didn't have dminishing returns only just that it has 3 tiers and in the third 100 dex = 1% dodge? Nope, Dex works with the usual formula, roughly Dex/(Dex+3000). So 1k is 25%, 2k 40%, etc. Since dodge is basically damage reduction with higher variance, it's still really, really good. Armor/damage doesn't hurt either. I think Dex is underrated by most monks.
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On June 12 2012 04:09 Pwere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:27 wwiv wrote:On June 12 2012 02:10 Pwere wrote:
Slayer, the diminishing return means this:
Going from 0 to 3000 armor gives you about 50% absorb (or 0 to 300 resist, they work on exactly the same scale 1:10). Going from 3000 to 6000 gives you 33% more (6k is 66%, meaning that you receive 33% less damage). So clearly the 2nd 3k wasn't nearly as good. 9k? 75%. 12k, 80%, and so on. Those numbers aren't exactly accurate because we don't know the exact monster level, but the diminishing return is there.
look at it from this perspective, every 100 resistance improves your damage reduction by 10% at 700 resistance, you have 70% damage reduction, you take 30% damage at 800 resistance, you have 73% damage reduction, you take 27% damage 30-27=3% which is 10% of 30. there is no diminishing return This is not the correct formula. The first 100 doesn't give you 10% but 25%. 300 is 50%, not 27%. Don't worry, I did my homework.
i didn't state it was the correct formula, i was trying to illustrate that you do get consistent gains (regard to effective health) with boosting resistance even if the gains from damage reduction fall less than proportionately. therefore diminishing returns does not apply when we consider the purpose of damage reduction in the first place.
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You're arguing different definitions of the received damage - whether it's the initial amount (in which case it is diminishing), or the remaining amount (in which case it isn't).
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wwiv, it does; I always count it that way as well.
0 - 0% reduction
100 - 25% - 25% effective reduction from last
200 - 40% - 20%
300 - 50% - 16.6%
600 - 66% - 33%
900 - 75% - 25%
1200 - 80% - 20%
I can't make it any clearer than that. I thought it was your way at first too, but there is effective diminishing return. I really like the system they used though.
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I've been playing around with my DPS build a little bit, and this is what I got
Build:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#UdYXki!VUe!ZbcbaZ
Notice: No Serenity
With a tank I can group threw act 1 with shit gear. My resist's are shit, armor shit, hp shit, however I do 35k dps when buffed. Only fighting elites do I need a tank. Trash mobs are tanked easily.
I figure by gearing up maintaining my dps and becoming more tanky I will be able to farm the rest of the acts.
Act 2 kicks my ass atm so I am just farming Butcher with 5 stacks nephew.
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Or you can just swap LoH for raw dps, that works as well :s
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On June 12 2012 04:09 Pwere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:27 wwiv wrote:On June 12 2012 02:10 Pwere wrote:
Slayer, the diminishing return means this:
Going from 0 to 3000 armor gives you about 50% absorb (or 0 to 300 resist, they work on exactly the same scale 1:10). Going from 3000 to 6000 gives you 33% more (6k is 66%, meaning that you receive 33% less damage). So clearly the 2nd 3k wasn't nearly as good. 9k? 75%. 12k, 80%, and so on. Those numbers aren't exactly accurate because we don't know the exact monster level, but the diminishing return is there.
look at it from this perspective, every 100 resistance improves your damage reduction by 10% at 700 resistance, you have 70% damage reduction, you take 30% damage at 800 resistance, you have 73% damage reduction, you take 27% damage 30-27=3% which is 10% of 30. there is no diminishing return This is not the correct formula. The first 100 doesn't give you 10% but 25%. 300 is 50%, not 27%. Don't worry, I did my homework. And slayers, obviously the way you count it seems to have no diminishing return, but going from 5 secs to 10 secs is a much better improvement than 10 to 15. That's what I'm getting at. As for 700, obviously it's a completely arbitrary number, and I never said to not get more. I said that if you have more, you probably forgot a better stat somewhere, but hey, it's the gear you're stuck with, we don't have the luxury of upgrading that often. It just seems to be a number where most people end up, and it's a "good enough" number to farm act 3. I mentioned that the point was balance, but since it's easier but more expensive to get resists than armor for monks, shopping for dex/armor is a good way to gear up. But anyway, we're getting lost in semantics here. You can plug in your numbers in a sheet like this: D3 EHP Calculator , and see for yourself. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 03:04 xZiGGY wrote:
I thought dex didn't have dminishing returns only just that it has 3 tiers and in the third 100 dex = 1% dodge? Nope, Dex works with the usual formula, roughly Dex/(Dex+3000). So 1k is 25%, 2k 40%, etc. Since dodge is basically damage reduction with higher variance, it's still really, really good. Armor/damage doesn't hurt either. I think Dex is underrated by most monks.
Err, 5 seconds to 10 seconds or 10 seconds to 15 seconds its 5 seconds either way. I don't see why the first 5 is better than the next 5.
"I said that if you have more, you probably forgot a better stat somewhere"
Why's that? You're also saying that you should get armour over resists when if this argument is about diminishing returns (lack thereof) then armour has the same problem and you should never go higher than 7k armour! (Obviously it stacks a bit better than then the diminishing returns kicks in so what's the point?!?!?!)
On a side note I went for a 5 NV stack diablo run when I got side tracked the first time I tried by 2 consecutive subjugator elite packs (second pakc I just said fuck this shit table flip and go farm somewhere). It started off with... 2 consecutive subjugator packs. I had to kill about 9 elite packs by the time I realized I'm not suppose to start at the start of act IV. Lol. Then I got to diablo with I dunno, 15 mins left on the NV? (took me ages to find the exit, didn't find any elite packs) and then I fucked up and got stuck in phase 3 at about 20% and died zzzz.
Still felt very manageable which I'm sort of surprised at apparently subjugator is by far the hardest elite pack to deal with. I can't be bothered to try again though, but SOON I will have the 5 stack NV diablo done in proper. (I guess I need to find a pack to get to 30 minutes to be sure.. Diablo with deadly reach takes quite a while to kill)
I used the calculator, no matter what resistance value I had it gives the same amount of EHP. Diminishing returns nowhere. The values for armour and HP went up, however, but we already knew that happens. Also dex gives nowhere near the EHP of resists.
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On June 12 2012 04:47 Pwere wrote:
wwiv, it does; I always count it that way as well.
0 - 0% reduction
100 - 25% - 25% effective reduction from last
200 - 40% - 20%
300 - 50% - 16.6%
600 - 66% - 33%
900 - 75% - 25%
1200 - 80% - 20%
I can't make it any clearer than that. I thought it was your way at first too, but there is effective diminishing return. I really like the system they used though.
yes the value of damage reduction gained per point decreases but the idea of diminishing returns is that you gain less benefit from each additional point. you do not. armor and resist does not concern with just damage reduction, it applies to the damage you take and therefore your effective health.
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I guess the way you count it has no diminishing return, but let's settle for this then: Armor makes your resists better, and resists make your armor better, in term of effective hp. So, ideally, you want them to line up before buffs.On June 12 2012 05:05 Slayer91 wrote:Why's that? You're also saying that you should get armour over resists when if this argument is about diminishing returns (lack thereof) then armour has the same problem and you should never go higher than 7k armour! (Obviously it stacks a bit better than then the diminishing returns kicks in so what's the point?!?!?!) You shouldn't aim to go over 7k unbuffed armor, and most people are actually around 5k, which is why buying +armor makes so much sense, before you even consider that it's cheaper than resist all. Unbuffed means before enchantress/hard target, not just keen eye. And please stop saying never everywhere; remember that it's about tips for people gearing up through act 1/2.
As for the Diablo runs, I didn't see higher quality drops from him, compared to siege/spider/azmodan. Obviously, sample size, etc. but has it been confirmed that Diablo drops better gear on average?
ps. If Diablo was a subjugator, monks would not solo inferno.
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Any experiences about Diablo in inferno ? I'm trying for 3hours now, but I'm still having lot of difficulties especially in 3rd phase. Am I a noob, or is he really hard ? :-/
I'm using : http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aYXgjh!ZUX!ZYbaca
With while buffed : 28K hp, 25k dps, 850 all resists, 10.1k Armor, 2AS and 1.1k LoH.
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Be careful about this effective health idea, is a useful tool but isn't completely true. Life on hit and the fact players kite mobs and the affixes mobs have plus the number of mobs attacking you and the fact the more damage you do to them the less time they are alive an such forth mean that it's impossible to effectively mathematically model damage completely unless anyone wants to spend a long time properly modeling it. Long story short, take effective health with a grain of salt.
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On June 12 2012 06:31 Gevna wrote:Any experiences about Diablo in inferno ? I'm trying for 3hours now, but I'm still having lot of difficulties especially in 3rd phase. Am I a noob, or is he really hard ? :-/ I'm using : http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aYXgjh!ZUX!ZYbacaWith while buffed : 28K hp, 25k dps, 850 all resists, 10.1k Armor, 2AS and 11k LoH.
Elaborate. What's your issues with him? The only thing that kills me in diablo is getting caged like a retard (happens a lot rarely die), not invulling my clones Wave of Light or horribly fucking up postioning in last phase so you spend too much time in fire and have trouble avoiding the lightning breath. Your stats seem fine.
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On June 12 2012 06:31 Gevna wrote:Any experiences about Diablo in inferno ? I'm trying for 3hours now, but I'm still having lot of difficulties especially in 3rd phase. Am I a noob, or is he really hard ? :-/ I'm using : http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aYXgjh!ZUX!ZYbacaWith while buffed : 28K hp, 25k dps, 850 all resists, 10.1k Armor, 2AS and 11k LoH.
How the fuck do you have 11k LoH?
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On June 12 2012 06:46 Depetrify wrote:How the fuck do you have 11k LoH?
I missed the dot.
My main issue is his fire, and combination of spells. I guess I have bad positioning. It feels like I'm always in fire, and with other source of damages (like dot or fireball) I will always die.
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On June 12 2012 06:31 UdderChaos wrote:
Be careful about this effective health idea, is a useful tool but isn't completely true. Life on hit and the fact players kite mobs and the affixes mobs have plus the number of mobs attacking you and the fact the more damage you do to them the less time they are alive an such forth mean that it's impossible to effectively mathematically model damage completely unless anyone wants to spend a long time properly modeling it. Long story short, take effective health with a grain of salt.
Yeah, a lot of it considers the fact that you just stand there and get hit by everything like a main tank in WoW. The thing is though, this isn't WoW. You don't have healers spamming on you 24/7 and it's not about being able to stand in one spot and take hits longer, so effective health is pretty useless unless you plan on playing like that. The only stats necessary to clear inferno are ~700 resistance and ~30-40k hp -- nothing else. As long as you can survive a few hits, you can adjust your stats to suit your playstyle.
On June 12 2012 06:55 Gevna wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:46 Depetrify wrote:On June 12 2012 06:31 Gevna wrote:Any experiences about Diablo in inferno ? I'm trying for 3hours now, but I'm still having lot of difficulties especially in 3rd phase. Am I a noob, or is he really hard ? :-/ I'm using : http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aYXgjh!ZUX!ZYbacaWith while buffed : 28K hp, 25k dps, 850 all resists, 10.1k Armor, 2AS and 11k LoH. How the fuck do you have 11k LoH? I missed the dot. My main issue is his fire, and combination of spells. I guess I have bad positioning. It feels like I'm always in fire, and with other source of damages (like dot or fireball) I will always die.
Dodge all bone cages, serenity when he directly lands fireball on you, use blind on the clone to burst it down, use mystic ally to tank everything, always dps from behind him if he's attacking ally, if he attacks you back up and resummon ally, summon ally and run to health pool for emergency. Oh, and change your blind to 30% dmg, the miss isn't necessary and he shouldn't ever hit you more than twice in a row because you have ally/blind/serenity.
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Consider getting transcendence? Not sure if resolve works on the fire dot stuff. I never found his fire TOO problematic. Or try making your mystic ally tank a few. I dunno.
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i just blind him to cancel the fire thing. if he does it again then you serenity
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Still having quite a bit trouble Act 3 inferno, Siegebreaker and on. Am I undergeared? What should I replace? tips etc please :d All my info is in this imgur album
http://imgur.com/a/TbdXR
Those stats include my self buffs
I know you're gonna say get a faster weapon, but im not that rich :O , this one was like 6m alone
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Thank you all for your advices, especially about mystic ally tanking. I just killed Diablo. I'm really happy and feel really satisfied about cleaning the game (without any exploit) before inferno's nerf 
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Your gear is pretty awesome. You can afford to drop some dex/vit for attack speed though, it's what you're really missing. Your resists are a bit low on account of having very few if not any double resist (all resist+phys resist+Dex+vit ) items.
Basically you have the tough decision on getting attack speed on rings/amulet or some other piece. Having a mace is an issue most people use 1.4 attack speed weapons.
I'm not certain if the best way might not be to just get more resists and tank everything out, you have insane amounts of dex that it's a shame to lose it.
My advice would be to actually sell your weapon for a 1.4 one with socket and similar DPS, the stats aren't that important, but there's no easy way of going about it.
You could also work around but using more weapon damage stuff, replace blind with sweeping wind would be the first thing I'd do. I never found blind that useful with deadly reach builds whiel sweeping wind is an insane portion of your DPS.
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EPT
