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On June 07 2012 03:56 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 03:51 Amui wrote:On June 07 2012 03:44 Slayer91 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:39 archon256 wrote:On June 07 2012 03:30 Slayer91 wrote:
Guys I read in this thread from public forums from a guy called bryron saying that block doesn't scale well with dodge because you can't block dodged attacks.
But why would you want to block dodged attacks? If you've dodged them they already do no damage. Or do you mean if an attack fails a dodge check the game doesn't do a block check? That can't be right, since that'd make block completely useless.
On another note concussive wave seems by far the must underused spirit generator. To me it's way too slow and the AoE is only useful for stuff like iskatu, normally whites are more easily kited/knockback spammed with FoT or WoTHF while elite packs don't have enough to justify the massive AoE radius which you trade off for speed. Sure it has nice damage reduction but so does FoT lightning flash and deadly reach Keen eye. In group play it seems like threatening shout is a better version of it since it's not needed to be constantly refreshed.
In an ideal world we'd be able to use two spirit generators and still survive. Think about it, CW, Lightning Flash, Keen Eye, Foresight, etc. all have buffs that last long enough for you to weave in another generator and get the benefits of both. Then you wouldn't have to compare using CW exclusively to any of the others, since you could use it in conjunction with them. Hopefully the Inferno changes will help with that. You can't block a dodged attack, meaning your block "roll" goes to waste 1/2 the time on average if you dodge 1/2 of attacks. That is, I suppose, are dodge and block "rolls" done seperately? If it works like WoW(I MT'd in WoW back when I played, at a fairly high level), dodge and block are on the same hit table. What this means is that if you have 30% dodge and 40% block, it will roll for a number between 0-100(with decimal places but whatever), and if you roll 1-30, you dodge, 31-70 you block and the rest you get hit for full damage. In WoW it was fairly important to fill the hit table because you'd be blocking for around 10% of most hits(pretty big for avoiding getting gibbed). In D3 I'd imagine it's even more important because with proper resists, block can mitigate 30-50% of an incoming hit in later parts of inferno, which is pretty huge. Yeah, I realize that's how it worked in WoW, and why I'm hoping it works like this in Diablo 3, but does anyone know? And to starfries, yes it also means they scale multiplicatively which I mentioned I believe my original post on the matter.
Oh yeah, I should have read more carefully. I don't know for sure, but most posts I've seen say it's multiplicative. The fact that different dodge sources stack multiplicatively makes me think block likely is as well.
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Block and Dodge work the same way in D3. They're all independant from one another. That's why your 16% dodge combined with your 30% dodge is not 46 but rather closer to 40. A 16% dodge skill makes you receive 16% less hits than whatever you had before. A 20% block would be 20% less damage if the block amount was high enough.
This is really the best way to do it. For whatever flaws D3 has, this system works beautifully.
And I really don't like removing damage % in coop and not replacing it with anything. The game was already tankable if people bothered to use damage lowering skills and good defensive shouts/auras, and quite easily once they fix the broken affixes. Damage % was dumb because of how bursty it is, but adding attack speed instead would be the correct fix, imo...
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yo i just wanted to discuss the implications of a IAS nerf and where I sit...
Me and my brother both play monks, and we love stacking IAS and LoH because to be honest, it really does aid in survivability and just overall pwning... but monks in general have put little value into 'life per spirit spent' items - simply because the metagame has not acknowledged the value in this stat yet, because with enough LoH, you don't even need it.
But now if they nerf IAS, that means a nerf to LoH, in which case the builds we've all been aiming for (1000+ LoH with 2-.2.5+ attack speed) will be seemingly less effective as they were previously. Yeah, it'll still be good, and still valuable to your build, but no where near as essential as we've determined it is in the current metagame.
With inferno mobs hitting less hard (i hope they don't hit too soft, because then it will just be too easy) and a nerf to AIS, I've been looking into combining life per spirit spent (and to a lesser extent, spirit regeneration) with IAS and LoH. Transcendence gives you ~62 life per spirit spent, and there are weapons out there that give ~20 life per spirit spent, and a legendary monk helm that also gives anywhere between 15-30 spirit spent with IAS and all res (if you can find it/afford it).
Less attack speed = less spirit + LoH, which means the rate at which we can bump our HP back has been severely nerfed, but I don't mind it so much because it just adds another dimension to the monk class.
So IMO, just a heads up, if you find an item with life per spirit spent, it would be wise to seriously consider it, because thats where i honestly think the metagame will shift toward for monk.
(feel free to disagree)
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Nerf to attack speed nerfs spirit as well you know. Unless you have a lot of spirit regen. Also they're not removing the stat from the game. A nerf from 50% IAS to 40% IAS won't mean much if mobs are hitter softer.
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I'm curious if you dual wield and only 1 weapon has LoH, do you LoH the same as in using just 1 hand or does it apply for both.
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LoH adds up for both weapons. So if you can afford two 900LoHit 1h with good dps, you would get 1800LoHit from both hands wtih 15% increased attack speed for the cost of a shield.
It's probably really good if you're already geared not to use OwE and can get the 15% dodge instead.
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I tried the dodge but failed to get it to actually work properly, i must have been tired. (just tested it and obv it works) 
Finally beat act3 and first act4 boss (3rd primary kiting/forgot hpots herp), I still cant really farm act3 though. Had to nerf my dps all the way down to like 11k to get 1100 LoH ;/ Was tanking almost everything in 4mans though, golgors and some other kitable mobs were still 1 shotting me though (37k hp ;/) Was running Convition>Dishearten instead of Evasion>Hard Target though. (Deadly Reach>Keen Eye kite-tanking)
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actually playing around with dualweild quick dropping the 1200ar/80ra shield for second weapon works out as a slightly better tank for me, additionally I can boost it up with LoH and other stats I can get from the weapon; hmmz o.O
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On June 07 2012 07:42 xZiGGY wrote:I tried the dodge but failed to get it to actually work properly, i must have been tired. (just tested it and obv it works) Finally beat act3 and first act4 boss (3rd primary kiting/forgot hpots herp), I still cant really farm act3 though. Had to nerf my dps all the way down to like 11k to get 1100 LoH ;/ Was tanking almost everything in 4mans though, golgors and some other kitable mobs were still 1 shotting me though (37k hp ;/) Was running Convition>Dishearten instead of Evasion>Hard Target though. (Deadly Reach>Keen Eye kite-tanking)
I don't think you need that much LoH TBH, I got carried away and stacked LOH to around 800 using wep/rings/jewel and found myself having a difficult time when I had to kite or was forced to move often. I pretty much dialed it down to the +300gem on my dagger, +300 on my resist amulet. I still have a +attack speed +LoH ring, but I'm going to ditch that the moment I can find a good +attack speed + resist +vit/dex one too
Around 600-700~LoH is enough, after that just try pumping attack speed.
On the topic of Mantras, I can't seem to give up Evasion->Divine Protection, I honestly thought it would be unnecessary but goddamn has it been so useful. It stops you from getting one hitted by random ranged mobs (i.e Demonic Flyers).
And in terms of mitigation, 10% Dodge is just as good, mathematically, as 10% dmg reduction. Hard Target only seems to give me around 4%~ now and Mantra of Healing +20% resist around 3.9~%, the ~23% dodge I get from Evasion is a lot better.
Give Divine Protection a try, it really does save you a lot more times thank you think, and the debuff goes away when you die as well.
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Just downed Leoric on Inferno with my Monk, definitely sticking to him as my main. Through good and bad times, but the preview of 1.03 tells me the really good times are about to come :D
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One thing I havent seen pop into this discussion yet is the attack speed and stagger interaction. So, deadly reach kite tanking is kinda cool, but what I've seen a fair amount of is using fists of thunder (or to a lesser extent way of one hundred fists) to stagger opponents and how this relates to attack speed. Basically, every third attack with either of these 2 generators staggers the enemy, causing them to be knocked back slightly, missing there attack. Having faster attack speed means this occurs more often. So, dual wielding instead of having a shield means you in fact take less dmg from monsters because you stagger them more frequently. Dual wielding with a bit of attack speed mixed in means you can stagger most things faster than they can attack, meaning you take zero damage fighting small groups.
Ranged minions present a bit of a problem to this strategy, as they wont be continually forcing back at you to attack. For this reason, many use the thunderclap rune on fists of thunder, so you can easily close distance to begin the stagger on these mobs.
When you take a look at stagger and the affects it has on dmg reduction, its hard to put a theoritcal value to it, but in practice, the difference is huge. Doesnt matter if things one shot you (example - the tiny mobs in inferno pony land one shot me) if you just stagger them repeatedly so they never hit. It means building with a 2H is far less viable (imo, although it hasnt really been discussed much anyway, I think most realise that 1h's is where its at) and even having a sheild/1h can be inferior to dual wielding in another way.
Just another tick in the box for doing some sort of AS/LoH/dual wield dodge build.
My current train of thought is to stack dodge/AS/LoH, using dodge mantra with evasion, and fists of thunder (havent decided if i prefer dodge on that or thunderclap). This basically lets you maximise dps, using serenity to stand through tight situations, and having evasion to (hopefully) let you avoid death in those nasty situations where a blow hits you from range, or a melee before you stagger, allowing you to get serenity up and get into position. Overall this build excels at fighting in reasonable small packs of mobs, and with some proper positioning can allow you to hold a rare pack in place.
One final thought is the usefulness of tempest rush. Its something I've been experimenting with recently. Its like a force move on steriods. Should you get into a nasty position, you can move through anything to change that position. You can take the rune giving 25% dmg reduction whilst you move, so that ranged attacks or dmg on the ground doesnt hurt you as much as you change the position your in. The stagger/slow is fantastic in those situations where you can see an unavoidable attack animation winding up, or you need to move through the mobs that are mostly surrounding you to dodge something from range. It allows you to be doing slightly more damage as you reposition, do it with utility and reposition in situations where you'd otherwise be dead. The only downside I can see to it is if your running a build similar to mine, you lack a decent spirit dump (I use Serenity/breath of heaven/dodge mantra/sweeping winds with fists of thunder/tempest rush on mouse) In a really defensive situation, you have plenty of spirit dump in the form of breath/dodge mantra spam/using tempest rush to move, but when you get to a boss, you'll sometimes cap out, and spamming dodge mantra isnt necessarily useful if your avoiding boss mechanic attacks and have no need for extra dodge continually. It's still pretty cool to have in boss fights, being able to move through the boss is definitely useful (think butcher with his windup attack, diablo with his spines/fire/lazer etc)
I'd love to hear if anyone else has used tempest rush in an infernoish situation. I know I used it earlier on in my game and found it lack luster, but now that I feel the need to reposition more frequently, I've found doing so with damage, a damage reduction and the ability to move through creatures with a speed boost to be incredibly useful. Thoughts?
TL:DR Stagger on spirit generators with high AS is awesome, and tempest rush is really useful.
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On June 07 2012 05:17 run.at.me wrote:
yo i just wanted to discuss the implications of a IAS nerf and where I sit...
Me and my brother both play monks, and we love stacking IAS and LoH because to be honest, it really does aid in survivability and just overall pwning... but monks in general have put little value into 'life per spirit spent' items - simply because the metagame has not acknowledged the value in this stat yet, because with enough LoH, you don't even need it.
But now if they nerf IAS, that means a nerf to LoH, in which case the builds we've all been aiming for (1000+ LoH with 2-.2.5+ attack speed) will be seemingly less effective as they were previously. Yeah, it'll still be good, and still valuable to your build, but no where near as essential as we've determined it is in the current metagame.
With inferno mobs hitting less hard (i hope they don't hit too soft, because then it will just be too easy) and a nerf to AIS, I've been looking into combining life per spirit spent (and to a lesser extent, spirit regeneration) with IAS and LoH. Transcendence gives you ~62 life per spirit spent, and there are weapons out there that give ~20 life per spirit spent, and a legendary monk helm that also gives anywhere between 15-30 spirit spent with IAS and all res (if you can find it/afford it).
Less attack speed = less spirit + LoH, which means the rate at which we can bump our HP back has been severely nerfed, but I don't mind it so much because it just adds another dimension to the monk class.
So IMO, just a heads up, if you find an item with life per spirit spent, it would be wise to seriously consider it, because thats where i honestly think the metagame will shift toward for monk.
(feel free to disagree)
fwiw a friend of mine found a weapon with 56 life per spirit spent. i tried it out but had to give it back since it had just 600 dps.
so its theoretically possible to get even crazier values.
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I'm convinced that crafting is completely rigged. I just drained about ~3.2m on 9 grand talon fist weps plus the recipe, and none of them turned out higher than 300 dps.
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On June 07 2012 13:10 Daozzt wrote:
I'm convinced that crafting is completely rigged. I just drained about ~3.2m on 9 grand talon fist weps plus the recipe, and none of them turned out higher than 300 dps.
FWIW it's not ever worth crafting weaps. Best crafted weaps are ilvl 62, best weaps in game are 63, so you'd have to literally roll perfect stats to get one that'd match up to an average 63
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On June 07 2012 13:10 Daozzt wrote:
I'm convinced that crafting is completely rigged. I just drained about ~3.2m on 9 grand talon fist weps plus the recipe, and none of them turned out higher than 300 dps.
Sounds like they weren't kidding when they were talking about crafting being a money sink kekekeke.
Seriously though, that's pretty fucked. They really need to mod crafting to be a bit less random otherwise it will continue to stay pointless with all the gear on the AH.
Edit: last bit read awfully
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Wetty, as long as you have 2a/s, you stunlock foes with FoT. Dual wield definitely isn't a requirement. As for Tempest Rush, most people (me included) seem to prefer Dashing Strike if we're taking a skill for mobility. The current trend seems to go toward the Ally instead, to simply get into tricky situations way less often.
Dommk, "10% dodge is just as good as 10% DR" is only valid if you calculate it correctly. Going from 70 to 73% armor rating is effectively 10% DR. Hard target, in practice, usually gives you 10% DR. With your numbers, I'd estimate it takes you from 62 to 66 or something along those lines. As for Divine Protection, don't mobs usually take you from 30% HP to death in one shot? Meaning that it simply won't activate? Moreover, if the cooldown isn't reset when you refresh the aura, it is absolutely useless. Receiving 10% less damage is much better than receiving 80% less 3 secs per 90.
As for LoHit, the more, the better, always, unless you sacrifice a lot of stats for it. It's not like vit where going from 50 to 60k hp does absolutely nothing for you in most cases. Get a 800+ LoHit weapon then just take what you can on rings/amulets. Ìt's not worth wasting the amazing stats an amulet has simply to get LoHit, as with everything, it's all a balancing act, which is the beauty of this system. IAS + LoHit + high Res/Armor is what you're aiming for.
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Stuck on Part 3 of Act 3 inferno, soul lashers/rippers/rapers.. like.. theres nothing I can do. I just die.....
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rOx7J.jpg)
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On June 07 2012 14:30 Pwere wrote:
Wetty, as long as you have 2a/s, you stunlock foes with FoT. Dual wield definitely isn't a requirement. As for Tempest Rush, most people (me included) seem to prefer Dashing Strike if we're taking a skill for mobility. The current trend seems to go toward the Ally instead, to simply get into tricky situations way less often.
Dommk, "10% dodge is just as good as 10% DR" is only valid if you calculate it correctly. Going from 70 to 73% armor rating is effectively 10% DR. Hard target, in practice, usually gives you 10% DR. With your numbers, I'd estimate it takes you from 62 to 66 or something along those lines. As for Divine Protection, don't mobs usually take you from 30% HP to death in one shot? Meaning that it simply won't activate? Moreover, if the cooldown isn't reset when you refresh the aura, it is absolutely useless. Receiving 10% less damage is much better than receiving 80% less 3 secs per 90.
As for LoHit, the more, the better, always, unless you sacrifice a lot of stats for it. It's not like vit where going from 50 to 60k hp does absolutely nothing for you in most cases. Get a 800+ LoHit weapon then just take what you can on rings/amulets. Ìt's not worth wasting the amazing stats an amulet has simply to get LoHit, as with everything, it's all a balancing act, which is the beauty of this system. IAS + LoHit + high Res/Armor is what you're aiming for.
2a/s is much easier to achieve with dual wield, but you are of course correct, if you can get 2a/s and still be using a shield, you've got some hot gear. As for dashing strike, I've found it to be incredibly unreliable, the dashes dont seem to move over terrain very well, and I never actually make it to the target (Maybe this is because I play with ~300ms all the time, yay no SEA servers?) It also doesnt help if your surrounded (horde/illusion) and need to get out, but theres nothing at range to dash to (maybe jumping to the outside of the pack, but would you be on the correct side of them?), or if your trying to get away from a boss.
Whats your reasoning behind the ally meaning you dont get into as many tricky situations? Ive seen builds revolving around using deadly reach over the top of your ally, but never seemed to be able to get him to tank the majority of damage, or even be useful in those situations (elite packs tend to kill him pretty quick with lazers/desecrator/molten etc)
On June 07 2012 14:33 Depetrify wrote:Stuck on Part 3 of Act 3 inferno, soul lashers/rippers/rapers.. like.. theres nothing I can do. I just die..... + Show Spoiler +
More health? Your health pool seems somewhat low given your other stats. You have incredibly high armour/resistance/%life to multiply against any increased vitality you get your hands on, maybe it would help. Also reaching 2a/s (dual wielding or more AS items) to help stagger your enemies as discussed above
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If you just turned 60, have beaten hell, but barely can kill anything in late hell/early inferno (my weapon is like 480 dps), where should I farm? Should I keep plodding through inferno A1? I have like no gold, because well, honestly I haven't found anything decent...at all to sell or keep.
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On June 07 2012 15:05 cLutZ wrote:
If you just turned 60, have beaten hell, but barely can kill anything in late hell/early inferno (my weapon is like 480 dps), where should I farm? Should I keep plodding through inferno A1? I have like no gold, because well, honestly I haven't found anything decent...at all to sell or keep.
The loot in A1 inferno isnt particularly good, no better than anything in late hell. If your having trouble with late hell, I'd just recommend going backwards to somewhere you feel comfortable with. NV buff makes a pretty big difference to your income now that you've reached 60, so even if your just farming hell for drops and most of them get vendored, you'll be receiving much more loot and gold drops, and that will build up your cash pretty quick. Make a concious effort to save gold towards a weapon, try to get something around the 700-800 dps range, just a blue will work fine to get you started further along towards then end of hell and the beginning of inferno. Farming act 3 hell may even find you some useful gear when you start finding more due to NV buff. Regardless, I believe its better to work on something you can do with relative ease, rather than dying continually in harder content for a not much greater reward.
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EPT
