On January 14 2013 07:21 dAPhREAk wrote: it really is pointless to play over mp0/1. even the extra item drop is pretty much negligible.
for xp, right now yes going over mp1 will lower ur xp/hr, next patch it will change though with the big increase to xp per mp.
for loot, wrong. the bonus item is massive in the highest mps. thing is that u need the hell of a toon and high paragon too make it efficent. You literaly flood the ground with items in mp8 and above. Must be doing act 3 and specific areas with high density mobs that have good drop tables though.
I get more legs doing mp8-10 runs than full mf mp2 runs. thing is Im paragon 81 with 35% mf in gear counting follower, so thats just 22%mf from cap.
On January 14 2013 16:06 Cascade wrote: Hmm, just got this run linked to me from a friend:
it is essentially skycrown --> tower of the damned --> keeps lvl 2 --> rakkis crossing + fields --> arreat crater with the option of doing caverns of frost and core of arreat as well if you want more loot, but less XP.
He claims it is 20% more XP efficient than alkhaizer runs, and that it is viable for any class.
Does anyone have experience and/or an opinion on this route?
I tested it and it was a little better for me (barb none ww )
I like the general direction you have. I think more HP would be healthy. (zing)
A really nice skill change you could make would be Temporal Flux instead of Galvanizing Ward. It's getting buffed in 1.07; effect will be 60% slow for 3 s on arcane dmg, instead of 30% 2 sec. Seeker + Temporal flux + Teleport will be pretty good I think, especially against melee. Might also be interesting to play around with adding a signature spell + arcane dynamo to get the 'uberdeath' effect for seeker.
On January 14 2013 07:21 dAPhREAk wrote: it really is pointless to play over mp0/1. even the extra item drop is pretty much negligible.
for xp, right now yes going over mp1 will lower ur xp/hr, next patch it will change though with the big increase to xp per mp.
for loot, wrong. the bonus item is massive in the highest mps. thing is that u need the hell of a toon and high paragon too make it efficent. You literaly flood the ground with items in mp8 and above. Must be doing act 3 and specific areas with high density mobs that have good drop tables though.
I get more legs doing mp8-10 runs than full mf mp2 runs. thing is Im paragon 81 with 35% mf in gear counting follower, so thats just 22%mf from cap.
i disagree. i can clear act3 in a short amount of time on mp0/1. the speed with which i can do it overrides any benefit from higher mf on higher mp, or bonus item (i.e., clearing act3 runs in less than 10 mins > an additional 200% mf or extra item drop). only in the circumstance of keys/ubers where drop rate is specifically tied to the mp level do i think it matters.
edit: the new patch is going to change everything so this may not be the case post-patch.
i like ur mitigation and life reg, though id probably try to add in a bit more life if possible. The shield a find a bit on the offensive side, if i was gona be using a shield id consider more block chance and maybe adding some reduced damage from elites there too. whats ur full buffed ehp in that set? btw, why tals helm and not mempo?
as for the skillset, what the hell are you doing with blood magic? ls gona be terribad for pvp like 1.5ls off a 40k hp pools is what? 600 life back after emptying his life bar? might as well get the 5% extra damage frome force.. reversal.... as it sounds nice to have 8 secs to tele again could be very predictable as u know where the next tele will land u might consider using wormhole for mobility or fracture too have some decoys. also no ap spenders, might aswell have some big hitters to spend ap on.
I have a similar idea in mind but a different take, 700k pre dodge ehp vs elites and 36 bonus to elites. more ias less and cd, dont want em monks n dh dodging so easily plus ill have like 1300loh and 19 apoc at around 2.5 aps with mms 1 porc rate. so my plan is getting ap n life back through it, also cooldown reduction via cm. same take on having prismatic, hydra, tele (fracture). since i will be taking illusionist id rather have something else than ds to benefit so will probably be either mi or bubble, not sure here. im not gona buff my dps with magic weapon ill use metor shower to spend my ap probably use temporal flux so the mms slow down the player and its harder for him to dodge the shower.
i disagree. i can clear act3 in a short amount of time on mp0/1. the speed with which i can do it overrides any benefit from higher mf on higher mp, or bonus item (i.e., clearing act3 runs in less than 10 mins > an additional 200% mf or extra item drop). only in the circumstance of keys/ubers where drop rate is specifically tied to the mp level do i think it matters.
edit: the new patch is going to change everything so this may not be the case post-patch.
depends at what speed ur clearing the same content in mp8-10, but legs come out of drops not kills, so it doesnt matter if you are doing the same run and killing 2x more stuff if its dropping 3x less stuff. I run both setups so im not biased too one or other i do what gives me better results, and lately its mp8 sns, wasnt the case 15 paragon levels ago though, also got better gear tbh.
Id do the math for you but i dont have enough time now, ill just give u a link where we were having this discussion in battle.net somewhere around there are calculations on the bonus item vs fast runs.
i disagree. i can clear act3 in a short amount of time on mp0/1. the speed with which i can do it overrides any benefit from higher mf on higher mp, or bonus item (i.e., clearing act3 runs in less than 10 mins > an additional 200% mf or extra item drop). only in the circumstance of keys/ubers where drop rate is specifically tied to the mp level do i think it matters.
edit: the new patch is going to change everything so this may not be the case post-patch.
depends at what speed ur clearing the same content in mp8-10, but legs come out of drops not kills, so it doesnt matter if you are doing the same run and killing 2x more stuff if its dropping 3x less stuff. I run both setups so im not biased too one or other i do what gives me better results, and lately its mp8 sns, wasnt the case 15 paragon levels ago though, also got better gear tbh.
Id do the math for you but i dont have enough time now, ill just give u a link where we were having this discussion in battle.net somewhere around there are calculations on the bonus item vs fast runs.
it all depends on the math. i havent done the calculation either so im not saying my opinion is set in stone, but i still think that the lower mp levels are better. i am sure there is some breakpoint where the increased mf and item drop of high levels overcomes the speed, and i have no idea where it is. if someone does have a link to the math, i would love to see it.
just take ur time n read the posts i put so u can get an idea, thing in high mps is killing lots of whites (not mainly scorpions or fallen) that have good chance to drop something (potion, gold, tome, whatever) so the bonus item gives u an item, lots of rolls to try get legs. But you need to be able to clear fast there so ur toon has to be expensive so its sort of efficent.
btw not sayng low mp archon is inneficent, it also is. it really is either low mp or high mp, middle is a waste.
On January 14 2013 16:06 Cascade wrote: Hmm, just got this run linked to me from a friend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OGnpaV7krs&feature=youtu.be it is essentially skycrown --> tower of the damned --> keeps lvl 2 --> rakkis crossing + fields --> arreat crater with the option of doing caverns of frost and core of arreat as well if you want more loot, but less XP.
He claims it is 20% more XP efficient than alkhaizer runs, and that it is viable for any class.
Does anyone have experience and/or an opinion on this route?
He updated it a bit later with this one
I think some people said he wasn't the first one who came with it, but it's effective anyway. I tried it a few times and it seems to be pretty good, but I didn't measure XP/hour or anything. What's really good is that in these 3 zones, you can keep archon up nonstop.
Thanks! Archon indeed works pretty well on it. Better than on alkhaizer I'd say. Only played with a friend so far, but I manage to keep archon up more than I usually do when playing in a group of 2. It is not bad for loot either right?
On another note, I am choosing between zuni's 3 piece set (armour, ring, boots) versus tal rashas armour.
If you are doing cm/ww, then I guess you have to choose tal rashas for the attack speed, but if I am aiming for an archon build, maybe with the possibility to swap some items and run cm/ww as well? The set bonus of zunimassa seems very tempting, and I have seen some high geared archons using zunimassa. Maybe zunis is bis for archon, and tal rashas better for cm/ww? Tal rashas maybe can be good for an economy archon though. + Show Spoiler [my profile if relevant] +
On December 26 2012 22:53 ximae wrote: @thisisnotralph, one of the things you gotta think about on which build to take is whether u play in group or not and if you do what kind of mp lvl you farm in. as archon suxs for groupplay, for lower mps you could do with spectral blade build (archon geared with decent defense) but if you farm in group and it is higher mps (mp5 or above) the only real option is cm.
i peeked at ur toon and you have some major upgrading to do but the good news is the economy is so trashed right now that you can do miracles with 50 mill. a good cm will be sort of out of your reach for that budget but you could easily hit 200k dps or more with archon.
you could start gearing for archon to start making money, but laying some decent base to be able to transition slowly into cm as some of the bis slots are the same but the difference really lies in that for archon u wil be getting more cd and for cm ias, cc is a given for both.
If u want a cheap and effective way to boost dps for sustained archon, get yourself a skorn u can even get it with life steal . i bought a 1400dps with 550 int for 2 mill and 1330 300 int with 5.3 ls for 8 mill.
ShockNadoShards you can only do when you have the armour/ar/loh requirements in check so if you want to gear for that and while you get ur defence in place you could always use cristal shell instead of shards and prismatic armour instead of shocking aspect, u will dealing half the damage but you will be able to survive well and freeze well as long as the aps/cc/apoc requirements are met.
hey there:
so i finally got to actually buying a couple items for the sustained archon build. i got my DPS to over 100k with a black weapon + trium, but i still am not sure where to upgrade next. i have 60 mil left to spend, and i am constantly dying on MP1. i can't keep archon up, and even when i am in archon, elites are eating me alive. add to that, i can't really get back to archon cause i have no APOC. my primary stat (ray of frost, cold blood) doesn't process at all and i can't really use WW cause i run out of arcane.
i really think i need some life leech somewhere, but i dont know how to get that without dropping 50+ mil on a good weapon. also, not sure how to get to 24 movement without breaking the bank. is the 24 a must-must?
is my defense ok? i'm not sure if im dying mostly due to not knowing how to run the build quite yet, or if my character just isn't built right.
so i finally got to actually buying a couple items for the sustained archon build. i got my DPS to over 100k with a black weapon + trium, but i still am not sure where to upgrade next. i have 60 mil left to spend, and i am constantly dying on MP1. i can't keep archon up, and even when i am in archon, elites are eating me alive. add to that, i can't really get back to archon cause i have no APOC. my primary stat (ray of frost, cold blood) doesn't process at all and i can't really use WW cause i run out of arcane.
i really think i need some life leech somewhere, but i dont know how to get that without dropping 50+ mil on a good weapon. also, not sure how to get to 24 movement without breaking the bank. is the 24 a must-must?
is my defense ok? i'm not sure if im dying mostly due to not knowing how to run the build quite yet, or if my character just isn't built right.
hey, i wouldnt invest in ls right now as they are nerfing reflect next patch. just use blood magic instead of force weapon. that will get you the sustain u need except for rd now, just kill them a few at a time and pick up globes with them.If u do want some cheap ls, life steal skorns arent too expensive right now but its still gona be 20 mill to get decent 1300 damage. ur defenses are fine for mp1 what u need is more life try hitting at least 30k.
as for archon running out there is 2 things, one is just routing just do high density mob areas in act3 (core, tower of the damned 1, keeps 3,keeps2, skycrown, craters 1 n 2,,rakkis, fields of slaughter) and u need 24% moove speed. so if u dont want to loose defense aim to get some tyrales might they have ms and ar as default, and get some boots with moove speed.
btw: if ur low on apoc and crit chance use a primary not a secondary, good options are living lightning(shit damage good proc rate) of forked lightning (shit proc rate good damage).
On December 26 2012 22:53 ximae wrote: @thisisnotralph, one of the things you gotta think about on which build to take is whether u play in group or not and if you do what kind of mp lvl you farm in. as archon suxs for groupplay, for lower mps you could do with spectral blade build (archon geared with decent defense) but if you farm in group and it is higher mps (mp5 or above) the only real option is cm.
i peeked at ur toon and you have some major upgrading to do but the good news is the economy is so trashed right now that you can do miracles with 50 mill. a good cm will be sort of out of your reach for that budget but you could easily hit 200k dps or more with archon.
you could start gearing for archon to start making money, but laying some decent base to be able to transition slowly into cm as some of the bis slots are the same but the difference really lies in that for archon u wil be getting more cd and for cm ias, cc is a given for both.
If u want a cheap and effective way to boost dps for sustained archon, get yourself a skorn u can even get it with life steal . i bought a 1400dps with 550 int for 2 mill and 1330 300 int with 5.3 ls for 8 mill.
ShockNadoShards you can only do when you have the armour/ar/loh requirements in check so if you want to gear for that and while you get ur defence in place you could always use cristal shell instead of shards and prismatic armour instead of shocking aspect, u will dealing half the damage but you will be able to survive well and freeze well as long as the aps/cc/apoc requirements are met.
hey there:
so i finally got to actually buying a couple items for the sustained archon build. i got my DPS to over 100k with a black weapon + trium, but i still am not sure where to upgrade next. i have 60 mil left to spend, and i am constantly dying on MP1. i can't keep archon up, and even when i am in archon, elites are eating me alive. add to that, i can't really get back to archon cause i have no APOC. my primary stat (ray of frost, cold blood) doesn't process at all and i can't really use WW cause i run out of arcane.
i really think i need some life leech somewhere, but i dont know how to get that without dropping 50+ mil on a good weapon. also, not sure how to get to 24 movement without breaking the bank. is the 24 a must-must?
is my defense ok? i'm not sure if im dying mostly due to not knowing how to run the build quite yet, or if my character just isn't built right.
I think I am more or less in your situation, or at least was recently, so I understand you perfectly. A few hints:
1. Don't run mp1. Go for the densest areas of act 3. As for example the run areat crater --> keeps lvl2 --> rakkis crossing in the video just a few posts above. Go MP0. it should be a lot easier to maintain archon then, due to the high monster density and lower HP of mp0.
2. 24% move speed is really helpful, and I see you don't even have 12... First priority is really to get boots with 12% move speed. Doesn't have to be expensive. For the other 12%, look into lacuni prowlers. With cc they are very expensive (bigger part of you budget), but I think you can get them without cc for decent price (not sure though). You may have to sacrifice some stats, but the increased attack speed should make you not lose too much dps, and the +movespeed will help you maintain archon a lot. May be other alternatives for the off-slot 12% movespeed, listen to the others for that.
3. I don't like your helmet. As you are running archon, you have no need for APOC, so you are paying a lot for a stat that you have no use whatsoever for. Also, the ruby is good, but if you are struggling to do the runs properly, it is probably better to use a +life instead. Then when you have the runs going smooth, you can change it for a ruby (or topaz), but until then, life is probably the choice for helmet socket.
4. Regarding life steal and reflect damage, I still have the same problem. Black weapons with CD and LS and high dps are ridiculously expensive. You are looking at 100M. At least. Reflect damage will get nerfed in 1.0.7, so consider holding off with that investment. If still needed after patch, it should at least be a bit cheaper I hope, as demand goes down. For now, try to get some life on hit, maybe some life per second, and just kite the reflect damage mobs, using potions and pick up globes. Or die like a man to them! > : D More life also helps, as they sometimes die before you do (specially at MP0). Which takes me to next point:
5. You need more life. 23k is not enough. Minimum 30, and without life steal, it is really convenient to have even 35k-40k. You will notice that reflect damage is less of a problem then, and dying in general. You can drop a bit armour if you want, The 6k you have is a lot more than most wizards I think. You have no vit on your shoulders or chest for example. And you can get % life in the helmet socket as mentioned above. That should bring you above 35k I think, otherwise you can get some higher vit rolls on the other slots, or maybe on the lacunis that you may or may not buy, or even on the rings. Your resist all is fine.
6. An easy way to increase dps is probably to get more cc. (For example on the new helmet that will replace your silly APOC helm! Or exchange the +attack speed for +cc on your second ring (that ring maybe can get some vit as well if needed?).)
7. Skills: Doesn't matter much what skill you use to reset cooldown. I use ww and diamond skin (I think many do the same), but whatever suits you is fine, point is that it shouldn't be needed often. As you are having problems dying and sustaining archon, but your 100k dps should be fine for now (it works for me at least, although I sometimes wish I had a bit more), I would go a bit more defensive and speed. More defence will give you more effective dps (and thus higher kill speed), as you can be braver in staying and tanking through charging elite packs. a) blood magic is a must, as you dont have any life steal. You don't need the last 5%. b) Skip glass cannon. Use for example blur to survive, or evocation to get archon back up asap. Your dps is enough on MP0. c) For more speed, less defence, consider storm armour with scramble. The lightning is really convenient for sweeping up leftover monsters as well, and allows you to not stop for stray single monsters. d) For more speed, less dps, try teleport on archon. On mp0 your dps should be enough as it is.
Hmm, that is all that comes to me right now. Made an essay already though... >_> sorry about that. If you have question regarding some specific slot, feel free to ask. Also, feel free to have a look at my profile if you want. I have "minimum" to run archon through mp0 act3, and then just stacked MF on top of that. So those stats I have are enough to run archon decently, but much less will probably struggle. My stats are very similar to yours, only 24% movespeed, a bit more life (but less armour!), and more defensive/speed skills.
Did anyone see the new patch notes? Blizzard got a ridiculous buff. That blizzard farming build is going to possibly be the fastest of any character now, if it wasn't already.
Edit: Arcane Orb got a huge buff as well. Arcane Nova could potentially be used for farming now? Probably still way slower than blizzard though.
On January 14 2013 07:21 dAPhREAk wrote: it really is pointless to play over mp0/1. even the extra item drop is pretty much negligible.
for xp, right now yes going over mp1 will lower ur xp/hr, next patch it will change though with the big increase to xp per mp.
for loot, wrong. the bonus item is massive in the highest mps. thing is that u need the hell of a toon and high paragon too make it efficent. You literaly flood the ground with items in mp8 and above. Must be doing act 3 and specific areas with high density mobs that have good drop tables though.
I get more legs doing mp8-10 runs than full mf mp2 runs. thing is Im paragon 81 with 35% mf in gear counting follower, so thats just 22%mf from cap.
Yep Shandlar made a pretty informative post about how good the item bonus really is. He thinks ~MP7 is optimal for item farming provided like you said the right setup
On January 14 2013 07:21 dAPhREAk wrote: it really is pointless to play over mp0/1. even the extra item drop is pretty much negligible.
for xp, right now yes going over mp1 will lower ur xp/hr, next patch it will change though with the big increase to xp per mp.
for loot, wrong. the bonus item is massive in the highest mps. thing is that u need the hell of a toon and high paragon too make it efficent. You literaly flood the ground with items in mp8 and above. Must be doing act 3 and specific areas with high density mobs that have good drop tables though.
I get more legs doing mp8-10 runs than full mf mp2 runs. thing is Im paragon 81 with 35% mf in gear counting follower, so thats just 22%mf from cap.
i disagree. i can clear act3 in a short amount of time on mp0/1. the speed with which i can do it overrides any benefit from higher mf on higher mp, or bonus item (i.e., clearing act3 runs in less than 10 mins > an additional 200% mf or extra item drop). only in the circumstance of keys/ubers where drop rate is specifically tied to the mp level do i think it matters.
edit: the new patch is going to change everything so this may not be the case post-patch.
There are a lot of high level geared dudes who farm lots of items on high MP and they conclude it's better for loot farming, largely due to the extra item mechanic. For sure, low MP farming is excellent for items, and by far the best right now for EXP. But Ximae is right about loot on higher MP provided the right gearing and spec, because there are a lot of people who have tested that and come to that same conclusion, people farming both low MP archon like you are and doing higher MP farming
On January 14 2013 07:21 dAPhREAk wrote: it really is pointless to play over mp0/1. even the extra item drop is pretty much negligible.
for xp, right now yes going over mp1 will lower ur xp/hr, next patch it will change though with the big increase to xp per mp.
for loot, wrong. the bonus item is massive in the highest mps. thing is that u need the hell of a toon and high paragon too make it efficent. You literaly flood the ground with items in mp8 and above. Must be doing act 3 and specific areas with high density mobs that have good drop tables though.
I get more legs doing mp8-10 runs than full mf mp2 runs. thing is Im paragon 81 with 35% mf in gear counting follower, so thats just 22%mf from cap.
i disagree. i can clear act3 in a short amount of time on mp0/1. the speed with which i can do it overrides any benefit from higher mf on higher mp, or bonus item (i.e., clearing act3 runs in less than 10 mins > an additional 200% mf or extra item drop). only in the circumstance of keys/ubers where drop rate is specifically tied to the mp level do i think it matters.
edit: the new patch is going to change everything so this may not be the case post-patch.
There are a lot of high level geared dudes who farm lots of items on high MP and they conclude it's better for loot farming, largely due to the extra item mechanic. For sure, low MP farming is excellent for items, and by far the best right now for EXP. But Ximae is right about loot on higher MP provided the right gearing and spec, because there are a lot of people who have tested that and come to that same conclusion, people farming both low MP archon like you are and doing higher MP farming
like i said, i havent done the math--its just my feeling that the speed overrides any benefit from higher mp/item mechanic. also, i read somewhere that the extra item was always a rare (the legitimacy of the statement is questionable). so, for all intents and purposes, the extra item is likely worthless unless its gloves or jewelry. can you link me to the tests? i would like to read. thanks!
Yep Shandlar made a pretty informative post about how good the item bonus really is. He thinks ~MP7 is optimal for item farming provided like you said the right setup
yeah i should really go back to mp7 and do some testing and see the results as it is faster but not sure, bonus itemm % is starting to drop too low for my likes.
i am also liking mp10 too, get 5 stacks and wormhole over rest of elites just killing what u have been kiting into mobs and u just cant get rid off. mp 10 bonus drop is massive 30% more than mp8, doing the run like that is just taking me like 5 more mins than mp8 and i think i could do it fater if i had a bit better mitigation as i die more than in mp8. i did some runs and was killing around 1400 whites hour, which was slightly less than 30% less than in mp8 (1800) and considering the bonus item diff is 30% it even might be worthwhile, prob is when u get stuck on some elites u cant leave behind and have to kill, there u waste tons of time.
so 1800 x 0,3 (average drop chance) x 0,7(bonus item %) = 378 bonus items
vs
1400 x 0,3 x 1 (100% bonus) = 420 bonus items
then mp8 would top it off coz ur killing less elites n whites for standard drops.... but if i could manage to do something like 1600-1700 whites hour in mp10 im pretty sure it would come out on top as the bonus items numbers really are more than double of them standard drops at those levels.
like i said, i havent done the math--its just my feeling that the speed overrides any benefit from higher mp/item mechanic. also, i read somewhere that the extra item was always a rare (the legitimacy of the statement is questionable). so, for all intents and purposes, the extra item is likely worthless unless its gloves or jewelry. can you link me to the tests? i would like to read. thanks!
no that guys probably never even tried or actually cared to look whats dropping as bonus item. bonus item range from white to leg, its decided in a mf roll hence the bigger mf in higher mps benefits.
this is how it works:
u kill something and it rolls to see if it drops something (blizz stated around 30% but its mob independant)
if it drops something it has too roll what it drops, either gold, tome, health globe, gem or item.
if it is item it has to roll again to see the ilevel, then comes in mf to decide the quality and the what it is.
when it has dropped something be it what ever u get another roll to see if u get bonus item ( the % per mp) this will always be an item. and then we go to previous step to see what it was.
Yep Shandlar made a pretty informative post about how good the item bonus really is. He thinks ~MP7 is optimal for item farming provided like you said the right setup
yeah i should really go back to mp7 and do some testing and see the results as it is faster but not sure, bonus itemm % is starting to drop too low for my likes.
i am also liking mp10 too, get 5 stacks and wormhole over rest of elites just killing what u have been kiting into mobs and u just cant get rid off. mp 10 bonus drop is massive 30% more than mp8, doing the run like that is just taking me like 5 more mins than mp8 and i think i could do it fater if i had a bit better mitigation as i die more than in mp8. i did some runs and was killing around 1400 whites hour, which was slightly less than 30% less than in mp8 (1800) and considering the bonus item diff is 30% it even might be worthwhile, prob is when u get stuck on some elites u cant leave behind and have to kill, there u waste tons of time.
so 1800 x 0,3 (average drop chance) x 0,7(bonus item %) = 378 bonus items
vs
1400 x 0,3 x 1 (100% bonus) = 420 bonus items
then mp8 would top it off coz ur killing less elites n whites for standard drops.... but if i could manage to do something like 1600-1700 whites hour in mp10 im pretty sure it would come out on top as the bonus items numbers really are more than double of them standard drops at those levels.
Did none of you guys who are talking about mp levels see the 12 hour marathon run between a monk barb and wiz? The barb and monk got the same amount of drops despite the barb being on mp5 and the monk on 10. There's really no reason to go to a higher mp for "loot".
EPT
)
It is not bad for loot either right?
A few hints:
