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On September 20 2012 05:18 oneofthem wrote:
well, the dual wield gives 15% aspd. so add up the stats on the manticore+DML and if the dual wield stats exceed it, and if the average dps of the 2 bows are close to the manticore, then you have pretty equivalent dps.
the only issue i think is the different archery passive effects. at high crit damage, it may be better to get the 10% crit chance vs 50% crit damage.
None of that makes sense at all. DML can roll up to 20% Attack Speed so that bonus can exceed the dual wielding bonus. It can also roll less, but the 1 handers start with higher attack speed anyway so this really isn't an apples apples discussion. I'm pretty sure the pure damage roll of a Manticore is almost always going to exceed that of the Calamity or Danetta. Unless you get a perfect roll on the 1 hander and compare to the worst possible roll on the 2 hander.
It really depends on the playstyle you want to go for. I went dual wield for a long time, and so I used Caltrops and Ball lightning and had to kite a lot more. I switched to a crossbow, cluster arrow, and now I just blow shit up. There definitely is potential in the dual wielding build but you have to have some serious gear to make it work.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
uh, i didn't say it'll be easy. i sort of said the dps has to be close to the manticore, and that's very hard unless your bows are super godly.
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On September 20 2012 05:56 oneofthem wrote:
uh, i didn't say it'll be easy. i sort of said the dps has to be close to the manticore, and that's very hard unless your bows are super godly.
But even if the DPS is the same, the Manticore will still hit harder because of the lower attack speed. You'd have to have 1Handers with HIGHER DPS than the Manticore to get comparable raw damage.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if the dps is the same the 2 bows hit faster but with lower dmg. their dps should still be the same. it's dps after all
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Right, but character sheet damage doesn't take into account things like Hatred Regeneration, Kiting, Ball Lightning Procs, ect...
Our character sheep DPS might be the same, but if I'm using Cluster and you're using Ball Lightning, I'm going to seriously out perform you damage-wise for the first 3 seconds. If this is enough to wipe out a pack, then this is BY FAR a more efficient set up.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea but i thought that's not what he's asking about. maybe he thinks the fun nature dual wielding overrides hatred efficiency concerns.
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You're right, I guess I forgot what we were talking about.
To answer the original question, you would need an AWESOME Clamity and a damn near perfect Dannetta. In addition, you would have to spec your character for dual wielding. This means all the attack speed and crit damage you can get. When I was running it, I also built a lot tankier than I am now so that I could just pop Gloom and stand and shoot. You don't hit as hard Per Hit, so you want to shoot as much as you can, so unless you've got Pokebunny level APM, you'll need to be able to take a few hits.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if you can get a lot of crit chance, like 60%+, then stacking a lot of crit damage and +dmg on jewelry may be very effective with dual wielding. it looks really cool too and that's the deciding factor imo.
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On September 20 2012 06:37 oneofthem wrote:
yea but i thought that's not what he's asking about. maybe he thinks the fun nature dual wielding overrides hatred efficiency concerns.
Hatred efficiency can be increased by attacking faster i.e. hatred generators >.>
First you have to pick a weapon that best fits your gear. I know few DHs who don't use archery. If you have plenty of crit n crit dmg, go for bows. If you tons of crit but low crit dmg, go for crossbow. If you have tons of crit dmg but low crit then go for handbow.
In reality, as long as your dps is equal to another then you will kill stuff just as fast. The other thing you have to consider is your abilities and weapon stats. If you are against a reflect dmg mob for instance, would you rather have a cross/bow with 800 LoH or a handbow with 800 LoH? Obviously the handbow since the dmg reflected will be in smaller increments and the LoH will proc more. If you choose frost arrow, would you want a cross/bow or a handbow to keep the unit under the frost effect? Situational, It is possible to keep a unit under the frost effect with a crossbow but you are only getting a select few targets whereas with the handbow, you can maintain frost on most of the units but you deplete your hatred and have to switch to a hatred generator for a few seconds to where they catch up.
It is all personal preference to be honest and the only debate you should have is with yourself over if you want to play towards the benefits of each weapon.
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On September 19 2012 13:19 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +I TC'd Vengeance not Archery, archery is crazy good it would be crazy not to take it. I think you've misread my original post - I mentioned that I took Bat, Vengence and Grenadier to make the Cluster Arrow build work. I agree that Vengence is great - in fact, in a post earlier in this thread, I mentioned that it improved my runs by about 15%. Hence, my interpretation of what you're saying is to swap Grenadier for Archery. However, I understand what you're saying and agree that Vengence > Grenadier. Show nested quote +next patch you'll be configurating to probably take on some harder difficulty levels so i doubt you'll want ot use BL or multishot. I agree that it's possible but we dont' really know so I'll leave it to the next patch. My post relates to current content and more specifically speed farming using the different skills and comparing cluster arrow vs multishot vs BL. Show nested quote +honestly all of the other abilties just suck except spike trap they barely do more damage than HA. with big crit chance and cdmg spray is more powerful than BL feels like. I'm surprised by this statement since many DHs are reporting better success (i.e. faster farming) using multishot. However, I'm pointing out that BL is also very good and seems to work better for me. Another high level DH (oneofthem) did some testing and drew similar conclusions. There is also no dispute that cluster arrow is the best single-target DPS (and hence feels very powerful to use), but most DHs are now going for fast full clears. However, it's been mentioned somewhere in this thread that it'll take around 100k DPS before switching becomes effective. Show nested quote +with vengeance ther's often times wher i'm able to pump out 5 or 6 clusters at once without firing any HA. It's not a case of how many cluster arrows you can fire at once, but the success of the run is the completion time. I'm also anedoctally saying that multishot or BL allows me to chain monster kills better which also leads to more exp per run.
no my interperation is to trade your 3rd for vengeance. i highlighted similarities that vengenace gives you that grenadier also gives you.
there's not really a reason not to pick up the passive dps bonuses, they're too good not to pick up.
yes i guess if you have so much dps that you can play with your dick in your hand i guess multishot (may?) be better.
i can't see how though unless white mobs are what's slowing you down. i can kill elites in a3 with one hatred bar (x3 cluster), and that's like the high end (sometimes 2 shots is all that is needed). i can't see how you can kill an elite pack anywhere that quick with MS or BL.
again like i said BL just does pathetic dmg i find, 90-120k a shot whereas HA crits for damn near 200k sometimes.
build probably didn't work for you cuz you were giving up SO MUCH dps just to fire a few more clusters (not really either since bat doesn't generate enough hatred over a small time frame for it to matter.
i can get big kill streaks using cluster as well, i can frquently get kill streaks that give me 7-12k exp no problem.
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On September 20 2012 06:00 Terranasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 05:56 oneofthem wrote:
uh, i didn't say it'll be easy. i sort of said the dps has to be close to the manticore, and that's very hard unless your bows are super godly. But even if the DPS is the same, the Manticore will still hit harder because of the lower attack speed. You'd have to have 1Handers with HIGHER DPS than the Manticore to get comparable raw damage.
doesn't calamity pretty much constant uptime for MoD.
i can see in pvp how calamity could be better. cdmg bonus has nothing on 12% flat damage if you have a pretty high dps roll.
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#1 Drop Ferret for Smokescreen
#2 Change NT to Cluster arrow
#3 You really should be using Sharpshooter until you have at least 40 percent Crit Chance.
As far as upgrades go. Your gear is fine, or really close to fine for act 3. You've got tons of life. Like more than enough. You just look a little low on resists. You can probably pick up AR on your shoulders or belt for pretty cheap... but your next big purchase really needs to be a better crossbow. If money is tight and you are on NA, hit me up in game and I'll give you one.
PS. Welcome to TL.
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On September 20 2012 11:10 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 13:19 Azzur wrote:I TC'd Vengeance not Archery, archery is crazy good it would be crazy not to take it. I think you've misread my original post - I mentioned that I took Bat, Vengence and Grenadier to make the Cluster Arrow build work. I agree that Vengence is great - in fact, in a post earlier in this thread, I mentioned that it improved my runs by about 15%. Hence, my interpretation of what you're saying is to swap Grenadier for Archery. However, I understand what you're saying and agree that Vengence > Grenadier. next patch you'll be configurating to probably take on some harder difficulty levels so i doubt you'll want ot use BL or multishot. I agree that it's possible but we dont' really know so I'll leave it to the next patch. My post relates to current content and more specifically speed farming using the different skills and comparing cluster arrow vs multishot vs BL. honestly all of the other abilties just suck except spike trap they barely do more damage than HA. with big crit chance and cdmg spray is more powerful than BL feels like. I'm surprised by this statement since many DHs are reporting better success (i.e. faster farming) using multishot. However, I'm pointing out that BL is also very good and seems to work better for me. Another high level DH (oneofthem) did some testing and drew similar conclusions. There is also no dispute that cluster arrow is the best single-target DPS (and hence feels very powerful to use), but most DHs are now going for fast full clears. However, it's been mentioned somewhere in this thread that it'll take around 100k DPS before switching becomes effective. with vengeance ther's often times wher i'm able to pump out 5 or 6 clusters at once without firing any HA. It's not a case of how many cluster arrows you can fire at once, but the success of the run is the completion time. I'm also anedoctally saying that multishot or BL allows me to chain monster kills better which also leads to more exp per run. no my interperation is to trade your 3rd for vengeance. i highlighted similarities that vengenace gives you that grenadier also gives you. there's not really a reason not to pick up the passive dps bonuses, they're too good not to pick up. yes i guess if you have so much dps that you can play with your dick in your hand i guess multishot (may?) be better. i can't see how though unless white mobs are what's slowing you down. i can kill elites in a3 with one hatred bar (x3 cluster), and that's like the high end (sometimes 2 shots is all that is needed). i can't see how you can kill an elite pack anywhere that quick with MS or BL. again like i said BL just does pathetic dmg i find, 90-120k a shot whereas HA crits for damn near 200k sometimes. build probably didn't work for you cuz you were giving up SO MUCH dps just to fire a few more clusters (not really either since bat doesn't generate enough hatred over a small time frame for it to matter. i can get big kill streaks using cluster as well, i can frquently get kill streaks that give me 7-12k exp no problem.
Like you, I was a Cluster Arrow user until I read up about the experiences of other high level DHs. If you're unaware, many have switched to multishot now. And because I listened to them, I did the experimentation and indeed found it better. When you post about how "multishot (may?) be better", you are ignoring what other DHs have been saying in this thread.
My original post also takes this a step further and investigates BL as well, while asking for verification on what I'm finding. Another hypothesis I have is that multishot may be better (for me) than BL if have higher crit, but I'll need to test this before drawing any conclusions.
As for the passive DPS bonuses, they are great, but in my Cluster Arrow build, my experimentation with Steady Aim, Grenadier, Vengence led to a small increase in performance (I estimate 2-3%) compared with Steady Aim, Archery, Vengence. This was based on real experience, not just a theorycrafted "too good not to pick up". In fact, I didn't even think of it until I saw the specs of some high level DHs and then decided to test it out myself.
And yes, white mobs is what slows me down - this will be verified by the experiences of other high level DHs. We have moved away from elite killing to fast runs. So, when you post about how Cluster Arrow is superior in elite killing, that's really not useful information for us since we already know it.
Also, if you haven't seen some of my other posts in this thread, I always advice struggling DHs to use Cluster Arrow. This is because at their gear level, in my opinion, Cluster Arrow is better and they won't be able to use multishot effectively. It is also superior in elite killing, which is what most likely bringing them unstuck.
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multishot clears way way faster for me at 110k dps. yes, it takes me 8-10 shots to kill an elite, but it's nearly as fast as cluster for me (although admittedly i run archery/steady aim/tactical as well as bat, so multishot plays better to those). but your speed at clearing rooms increases so much, while the elite kills are never really what slows down a high end dh.
there are obviously many things cluster is better at. with current a3 farming for mf and paragon, multishot is better high dps, but once the players x8 equivalent and more boss content are out i imagine this will change. but for now, maximizing mf with legacy nat, vault, multishot, and around 100k dps will likely net you far faster runs than making a 150-200k dps cluster arrow dh.
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Reading the posts in this thread, I think I'll give multishot a go. I have 101k dps atm, running Archery and Steady Aim. What should my third passive be? Also, do you guys recommend full broadside or fire at will?
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On September 20 2012 13:52 Chairman Ray wrote:
Reading the posts in this thread, I think I'll give multishot a go. I have 101k dps atm, running Archery and Steady Aim. What should my third passive be? Also, do you guys recommend full broadside or fire at will?
Do you use ToC as the main damage dealer? If so, probably tactical advantage or sharpshooter I think. If not, I would take vengence. Also, I recommend Fire at Will.
Multishot will take some getting used to (like I found out when I first took it). Report your findings!
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On September 20 2012 12:41 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 11:10 dreamsmasher wrote:On September 19 2012 13:19 Azzur wrote:I TC'd Vengeance not Archery, archery is crazy good it would be crazy not to take it. I think you've misread my original post - I mentioned that I took Bat, Vengence and Grenadier to make the Cluster Arrow build work. I agree that Vengence is great - in fact, in a post earlier in this thread, I mentioned that it improved my runs by about 15%. Hence, my interpretation of what you're saying is to swap Grenadier for Archery. However, I understand what you're saying and agree that Vengence > Grenadier. next patch you'll be configurating to probably take on some harder difficulty levels so i doubt you'll want ot use BL or multishot. I agree that it's possible but we dont' really know so I'll leave it to the next patch. My post relates to current content and more specifically speed farming using the different skills and comparing cluster arrow vs multishot vs BL. honestly all of the other abilties just suck except spike trap they barely do more damage than HA. with big crit chance and cdmg spray is more powerful than BL feels like. I'm surprised by this statement since many DHs are reporting better success (i.e. faster farming) using multishot. However, I'm pointing out that BL is also very good and seems to work better for me. Another high level DH (oneofthem) did some testing and drew similar conclusions. There is also no dispute that cluster arrow is the best single-target DPS (and hence feels very powerful to use), but most DHs are now going for fast full clears. However, it's been mentioned somewhere in this thread that it'll take around 100k DPS before switching becomes effective. with vengeance ther's often times wher i'm able to pump out 5 or 6 clusters at once without firing any HA. It's not a case of how many cluster arrows you can fire at once, but the success of the run is the completion time. I'm also anedoctally saying that multishot or BL allows me to chain monster kills better which also leads to more exp per run. no my interperation is to trade your 3rd for vengeance. i highlighted similarities that vengenace gives you that grenadier also gives you. there's not really a reason not to pick up the passive dps bonuses, they're too good not to pick up. yes i guess if you have so much dps that you can play with your dick in your hand i guess multishot (may?) be better. i can't see how though unless white mobs are what's slowing you down. i can kill elites in a3 with one hatred bar (x3 cluster), and that's like the high end (sometimes 2 shots is all that is needed). i can't see how you can kill an elite pack anywhere that quick with MS or BL. again like i said BL just does pathetic dmg i find, 90-120k a shot whereas HA crits for damn near 200k sometimes. build probably didn't work for you cuz you were giving up SO MUCH dps just to fire a few more clusters (not really either since bat doesn't generate enough hatred over a small time frame for it to matter. i can get big kill streaks using cluster as well, i can frquently get kill streaks that give me 7-12k exp no problem. Like you, I was a Cluster Arrow user until I read up about the experiences of other high level DHs. If you're unaware, many have switched to multishot now. And because I listened to them, I did the experimentation and indeed found it better. When you post about how "multishot (may?) be better", you are ignoring what other DHs have been saying in this thread. My original post also takes this a step further and investigates BL as well, while asking for verification on what I'm finding. Another hypothesis I have is that multishot may be better (for me) than BL if have higher crit, but I'll need to test this before drawing any conclusions. As for the passive DPS bonuses, they are great, but in my Cluster Arrow build, my experimentation with Steady Aim, Grenadier, Vengence led to a small increase in performance (I estimate 2-3%) compared with Steady Aim, Archery, Vengence. This was based on real experience, not just a theorycrafted "too good not to pick up". In fact, I didn't even think of it until I saw the specs of some high level DHs and then decided to test it out myself. And yes, white mobs is what slows me down - this will be verified by the experiences of other high level DHs. We have moved away from elite killing to fast runs. So, when you post about how Cluster Arrow is superior in elite killing, that's really not useful information for us since we already know it. Also, if you haven't seen some of my other posts in this thread, I always advice struggling DHs to use Cluster Arrow. This is because at their gear level, in my opinion, Cluster Arrow is better and they won't be able to use multishot effectively. It is also superior in elite killing, which is what most likely bringing them unstuck.
i dont know why you assume i didn't test anything. maybe 20k more dps will allow me to use multishot again. it was shitty last time i tried it. in addition i do a decent amount of leveling in groups.
hmm honestly i dont really maximize that much anymore i just log on do a run or two and then log off, dont even use the gem in my helm.
i just dont have any problems with white mobs, vault solves that.
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I am running 130k dps with 47,5% crit and i still prefer evasive fire/cluster arrow over hungering/multishot. all those white mobs that come in 2s or 3s are terribly annoying to get rid of with HA compared to EF. Yes multishot blows up large groups quickly, but so does cluster arrow. I don't feel comfortable having to use my hatred spender for white mobs. But I supposed it's a matter of preference. Also with gloom/vault I feel like i hardly ever use SS, but honestly I don't see any other skill being worthwhile.
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EPT
