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GSL soundproof issue - Official comment - Page 13

Forum Index > Community News and Headlines
257 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 11 12 13 All
DaNoSauR
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia12 Posts
January 22 2011 16:59 GMT
#241
Why would they censor the interview....
aztrorisk
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States896 Posts
January 23 2011 01:11 GMT
#242
censorship is bad

btw, I'm surprised the utube video hasn't been removed yet
A lock that opens to many keys is a bad lock. A key that opens many locks is a master key.
powerdawg96
Profile Joined November 2010
United States129 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 00:18:52
January 24 2011 00:18 GMT
#243
lol @ Gom's lame editing of jinro's interview. not cool ... the skipping was so obvious @ ~ 2:43

and kudos to Jinro for being honest. Jinro's such a nice guy.
capomatrice
Profile Joined October 2010
United States30 Posts
January 24 2011 05:37 GMT
#244
On January 20 2011 03:20 s.a.y wrote:
Jinro is a baller for confessing.


so true. i dig jinro even more now for being honest - seems like a chill dude.

crappen
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway1546 Posts
January 24 2011 08:32 GMT
#245
The censoring part, what kind of stupid pot head came up with that decision? Please just tell me its the culture or something so I can have an understanding of it, a business culture of some kind.

But I really like Jinro for being super honest.
zere
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany1287 Posts
January 24 2011 08:40 GMT
#246
A column was published on the SC2-pro-team-association website about this. My korean is pretty bad, but if Google serves me right, then they call the videoediting a "disappointment".
ModeratorWenn ich einmal traurig bin, dann trink' ich einen Korn. Wenn ich dann noch traurig bin, dann trink' ich noch 'nen Korn. Und wenn ich dann noch traurig bin, dann fang' ich an von vorn!
Ctrl W
Profile Joined August 2010
12 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 16:44:00
January 24 2011 16:36 GMT
#247
whoops - wrong thread.
anyuta34i
Profile Joined January 2011
Albania9 Posts
January 25 2011 03:09 GMT
#248
--- Nuked ---
Snickersnee
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States241 Posts
January 25 2011 09:12 GMT
#249
I'm glad they're going to try and make it better but censorship is never good when you are trying to be the best place to watch sc2.
Had an idea that combines the intimate moment of delivering babies with Crazy Taxi last night. Can emotional arcade style gaming work?
F u r u y a
Profile Joined August 2010
Brazil173 Posts
January 25 2011 18:15 GMT
#250
On January 22 2011 11:18 RetFan wrote:
To Teamliquid members

The issue relating to soundproof booths has been an issue in Starcraft 1. The most notable case being the case of flash and what was termed an 'Ear Hack by some members of the TL community.

I'd like to point out how significant this issue is by discussing:

- The engineering of the sound booth
- The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

Construction of the sound proof booth

The booth used both in Starcraft and Starcraft II are different, however the design is practically unchanged.

A sound proof booth is mainly achieved through the use of two planes of sound proof glass, which have a vacuum between them. Since sound is a wave, it needs a medium through which to travel. As more than half the booth is constructed with this glass, it prevents most of the noise from entering in and out.

However, anyone who has lived in an apartment with windows made of soundproof glass knows that sound can still get through. Not through the glass itself but through layers of air that provide ventilation. Where I stay, I have sound proof glass surrounding one side of the building, yet I am able to hear the music from a club from my house which is 15 minutes away.

Now in the case of Starcraft, bear in mind that the source and the receiver (player) are very close. The energy density of sound waves will be the strongest in this scenario, as the intensity of sound is attenuated according to the inverse square of the distance from the source.

Next, we contemplate that the booth is also made of other elements that include metal, fabric and paper. This provides barely any real sound blockage from the commentators.The noise blockage comes exclusively from the ear muffs.

The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

It is established that the majority of sound reduction is achieved through the use of muffs and noise reduction in ear headphones, with the booth itself providing very little actual support. Again, ear muffs also do not provide perfect sound reduction against broad sound waves and in particular, speech.

In ear canal headphones can provide additional sound reduction properties but again, this can be very minimal. As an owner of a pair of Shure SE530 headphones, which boast superior noise reduction capabilities, I am very clear as to how the dynamics work. The way that noise is reduced is through blocking the ear canal using a choice of foam or silicone ear buds which can be chosen in accordance to size. Only a perfect fit can increase bass response and reduce noise. Anything less than a perfect fit allows most of the sound reduction properties to be negated.

As a result of inadequate sound reduction measures and the intensely loud commentator speakers, players who are smart are able to take advantage of the situation. By choosing a ear bud which is small, and wearing a particular brand of ear muffs, a player is able to hear most of what is being spoken or yelled by the commentators in a live broadcast. This provides invaluable information to the recipient of the information, allowing them to hard counter any type of play.

I suspect that KT Flash has been aware of this issue for a very long period of time and has been taking advantage of it. Time and time again, there have been matches where he turns his scouting SCV around for no reason, and is able to find proxy buildings built by his opponents. I am sure TL readers (non-flash) fans can give numerous examples.

I doubt Liquid Jinro thought about the repercussions of discussing the sound proofing issue in his interview. I believe that it was the adrenaline that caused him to state this in the interview. Otherwise, just like Flash, he could have exploited this physical flaw for many GSLs to come.

Quoted for truth.

Despite not being an issue directly related to the engineering of booth itself — another thing that could help would be making the relative positions of the loudspeakers and the booth in such a way that the booth stays at the direction of lowest acoustic gain possible of the loudspeakers.

This was already pointed out by the user mojo_ca.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
January 25 2011 21:33 GMT
#251
On January 26 2011 03:15 F u r u y a wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2011 11:18 RetFan wrote:
To Teamliquid members

The issue relating to soundproof booths has been an issue in Starcraft 1. The most notable case being the case of flash and what was termed an 'Ear Hack by some members of the TL community.

I'd like to point out how significant this issue is by discussing:

- The engineering of the sound booth
- The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

Construction of the sound proof booth

The booth used both in Starcraft and Starcraft II are different, however the design is practically unchanged.

A sound proof booth is mainly achieved through the use of two planes of sound proof glass, which have a vacuum between them. Since sound is a wave, it needs a medium through which to travel. As more than half the booth is constructed with this glass, it prevents most of the noise from entering in and out.

However, anyone who has lived in an apartment with windows made of soundproof glass knows that sound can still get through. Not through the glass itself but through layers of air that provide ventilation. Where I stay, I have sound proof glass surrounding one side of the building, yet I am able to hear the music from a club from my house which is 15 minutes away.

Now in the case of Starcraft, bear in mind that the source and the receiver (player) are very close. The energy density of sound waves will be the strongest in this scenario, as the intensity of sound is attenuated according to the inverse square of the distance from the source.

Next, we contemplate that the booth is also made of other elements that include metal, fabric and paper. This provides barely any real sound blockage from the commentators.The noise blockage comes exclusively from the ear muffs.

The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

It is established that the majority of sound reduction is achieved through the use of muffs and noise reduction in ear headphones, with the booth itself providing very little actual support. Again, ear muffs also do not provide perfect sound reduction against broad sound waves and in particular, speech.

In ear canal headphones can provide additional sound reduction properties but again, this can be very minimal. As an owner of a pair of Shure SE530 headphones, which boast superior noise reduction capabilities, I am very clear as to how the dynamics work. The way that noise is reduced is through blocking the ear canal using a choice of foam or silicone ear buds which can be chosen in accordance to size. Only a perfect fit can increase bass response and reduce noise. Anything less than a perfect fit allows most of the sound reduction properties to be negated.

As a result of inadequate sound reduction measures and the intensely loud commentator speakers, players who are smart are able to take advantage of the situation. By choosing a ear bud which is small, and wearing a particular brand of ear muffs, a player is able to hear most of what is being spoken or yelled by the commentators in a live broadcast. This provides invaluable information to the recipient of the information, allowing them to hard counter any type of play.

I suspect that KT Flash has been aware of this issue for a very long period of time and has been taking advantage of it. Time and time again, there have been matches where he turns his scouting SCV around for no reason, and is able to find proxy buildings built by his opponents. I am sure TL readers (non-flash) fans can give numerous examples.

I doubt Liquid Jinro thought about the repercussions of discussing the sound proofing issue in his interview. I believe that it was the adrenaline that caused him to state this in the interview. Otherwise, just like Flash, he could have exploited this physical flaw for many GSLs to come.

Quoted for truth.

Despite not being an issue directly related to the engineering of booth itself — another thing that could help would be making the relative positions of the loudspeakers and the booth in such a way that the booth stays at the direction of lowest acoustic gain possible of the loudspeakers.

This was already pointed out by the user mojo_ca.


im curious as to how accurate that is, whether it just sounds legit and uses someone really good (flash) as an example or whether its actually legitimately possible that the progamers hear it
though if i remember correctly they have game sounds on maximum too
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 21:57:36
January 25 2011 21:49 GMT
#252
On January 22 2011 11:18 RetFan wrote:
To Teamliquid members

The issue relating to soundproof booths has been an issue in Starcraft 1. The most notable case being the case of flash and what was termed an 'Ear Hack by some members of the TL community.

I'd like to point out how significant this issue is by discussing:

- The engineering of the sound booth
- The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

Construction of the sound proof booth

The booth used both in Starcraft and Starcraft II are different, however the design is practically unchanged.

A sound proof booth is mainly achieved through the use of two planes of sound proof glass, which have a vacuum between them. Since sound is a wave, it needs a medium through which to travel. As more than half the booth is constructed with this glass, it prevents most of the noise from entering in and out.

However, anyone who has lived in an apartment with windows made of soundproof glass knows that sound can still get through. Not through the glass itself but through layers of air that provide ventilation. Where I stay, I have sound proof glass surrounding one side of the building, yet I am able to hear the music from a club from my house which is 15 minutes away.

Now in the case of Starcraft, bear in mind that the source and the receiver (player) are very close. The energy density of sound waves will be the strongest in this scenario, as the intensity of sound is attenuated according to the inverse square of the distance from the source.

Next, we contemplate that the booth is also made of other elements that include metal, fabric and paper. This provides barely any real sound blockage from the commentators.The noise blockage comes exclusively from the ear muffs.

The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

It is established that the majority of sound reduction is achieved through the use of muffs and noise reduction in ear headphones, with the booth itself providing very little actual support. Again, ear muffs also do not provide perfect sound reduction against broad sound waves and in particular, speech.

In ear canal headphones can provide additional sound reduction properties but again, this can be very minimal. As an owner of a pair of Shure SE530 headphones, which boast superior noise reduction capabilities, I am very clear as to how the dynamics work. The way that noise is reduced is through blocking the ear canal using a choice of foam or silicone ear buds which can be chosen in accordance to size. Only a perfect fit can increase bass response and reduce noise. Anything less than a perfect fit allows most of the sound reduction properties to be negated.

As a result of inadequate sound reduction measures and the intensely loud commentator speakers, players who are smart are able to take advantage of the situation. By choosing a ear bud which is small, and wearing a particular brand of ear muffs, a player is able to hear most of what is being spoken or yelled by the commentators in a live broadcast. This provides invaluable information to the recipient of the information, allowing them to hard counter any type of play.

I suspect that KT Flash has been aware of this issue for a very long period of time and has been taking advantage of it. Time and time again, there have been matches where he turns his scouting SCV around for no reason, and is able to find proxy buildings built by his opponents. I am sure TL readers (non-flash) fans can give numerous examples.

I doubt Liquid Jinro thought about the repercussions of discussing the sound proofing issue in his interview. I believe that it was the adrenaline that caused him to state this in the interview. Otherwise, just like Flash, he could have exploited this physical flaw for many GSLs to come.


This is actually a lot of bullshit, at least the conclusions.

1) I dont know how SC1 does it, but all the players wear the same brand headphones. Theres no "Oh Im going with this super minimalistic headset because I just adore the colour", you play with what you are given.

2) The reason I could hear anything had nothing to do with the headphones!! GOM plays the terran theme on max volume constantly during your games, not the best for your ears maybe but certainly drowns out the crowd. The ONLY reason I heard anything was because just as the game started the track restarted and thus the volume dipped for 1 second.

3) If I hadnt been so pumped I would have told GOM in private instead of doing it in public, because it really did not affect this particular game but as it could affect future games, and I believe they will do their best to prevent it from happening again, they deserve to know.

I take offense to the insinuations that Id exploit something like this -_-

Im not gonna comment on Flash at all, because I do not know him or the ear hack incident, but given that you were so quick to assume that I would unscrupulously exploit this without knowing me at all, I dont put too much stock in that opinion.

Yes, I am offended.

On January 26 2011 06:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2011 03:15 F u r u y a wrote:
On January 22 2011 11:18 RetFan wrote:
To Teamliquid members

The issue relating to soundproof booths has been an issue in Starcraft 1. The most notable case being the case of flash and what was termed an 'Ear Hack by some members of the TL community.

I'd like to point out how significant this issue is by discussing:

- The engineering of the sound booth
- The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

Construction of the sound proof booth

The booth used both in Starcraft and Starcraft II are different, however the design is practically unchanged.

A sound proof booth is mainly achieved through the use of two planes of sound proof glass, which have a vacuum between them. Since sound is a wave, it needs a medium through which to travel. As more than half the booth is constructed with this glass, it prevents most of the noise from entering in and out.

However, anyone who has lived in an apartment with windows made of soundproof glass knows that sound can still get through. Not through the glass itself but through layers of air that provide ventilation. Where I stay, I have sound proof glass surrounding one side of the building, yet I am able to hear the music from a club from my house which is 15 minutes away.

Now in the case of Starcraft, bear in mind that the source and the receiver (player) are very close. The energy density of sound waves will be the strongest in this scenario, as the intensity of sound is attenuated according to the inverse square of the distance from the source.

Next, we contemplate that the booth is also made of other elements that include metal, fabric and paper. This provides barely any real sound blockage from the commentators.The noise blockage comes exclusively from the ear muffs.

The practical effects of 'ear hacking'

It is established that the majority of sound reduction is achieved through the use of muffs and noise reduction in ear headphones, with the booth itself providing very little actual support. Again, ear muffs also do not provide perfect sound reduction against broad sound waves and in particular, speech.

In ear canal headphones can provide additional sound reduction properties but again, this can be very minimal. As an owner of a pair of Shure SE530 headphones, which boast superior noise reduction capabilities, I am very clear as to how the dynamics work. The way that noise is reduced is through blocking the ear canal using a choice of foam or silicone ear buds which can be chosen in accordance to size. Only a perfect fit can increase bass response and reduce noise. Anything less than a perfect fit allows most of the sound reduction properties to be negated.

As a result of inadequate sound reduction measures and the intensely loud commentator speakers, players who are smart are able to take advantage of the situation. By choosing a ear bud which is small, and wearing a particular brand of ear muffs, a player is able to hear most of what is being spoken or yelled by the commentators in a live broadcast. This provides invaluable information to the recipient of the information, allowing them to hard counter any type of play.

I suspect that KT Flash has been aware of this issue for a very long period of time and has been taking advantage of it. Time and time again, there have been matches where he turns his scouting SCV around for no reason, and is able to find proxy buildings built by his opponents. I am sure TL readers (non-flash) fans can give numerous examples.

I doubt Liquid Jinro thought about the repercussions of discussing the sound proofing issue in his interview. I believe that it was the adrenaline that caused him to state this in the interview. Otherwise, just like Flash, he could have exploited this physical flaw for many GSLs to come.

Quoted for truth.

Despite not being an issue directly related to the engineering of booth itself — another thing that could help would be making the relative positions of the loudspeakers and the booth in such a way that the booth stays at the direction of lowest acoustic gain possible of the loudspeakers.

This was already pointed out by the user mojo_ca.


im curious as to how accurate that is, whether it just sounds legit and uses someone really good (flash) as an example or whether its actually legitimately possible that the progamers hear it
though if i remember correctly they have game sounds on maximum too

Not just gamesounds. Theres also huge speakers in your booth that play music on max volume, then you put your headset on, from where you hear the gamesound (also set to maximum).
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
speedphlux
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Bulgaria962 Posts
January 26 2011 02:36 GMT
#253
Well, from what Jinro is saying, I guess I'll never be playing in a GSL booth, coz I simply can't stand loud in-game sounds and music :D

Now if that was my only issue thou, I'd be happy
... Humanity Is Not What I Suffer From ...
FlashIsHigh
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States474 Posts
January 26 2011 09:53 GMT
#254
Jinro is a man among men
KT Flash// WhiteRa/Scarlett/Naniwa/MC/Huk/Nony
RetFan
Profile Joined December 2010
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-26 15:27:01
January 26 2011 13:02 GMT
#255
Hi LiquidJinro,

Thank you for the feedback regarding this issue.

Starcraft: BroodWar

In Starcraft 1, the players use different brand headphones and ear muffs in respect to their team. For example, from memory, MBC Game Hero use blue ear muffs with a dragon icon. The quality among the sound reduction equipment would therefore vary depending on their equipment manufacturer.

It is to the best of my knowledge that the rules in Starcraft I do not disallow players to use a sound attenuator to control the resistance in regard to in ear canal headphones with high impedance. This also give control of volume. In addition to the ability to loosely fit the in ear canals with smaller sized ear buds, there is a lot of room for player abuse if they wanted to.

Liquid Jinro

I believe that you are an honest player who conforms to a high level of professional ethics.The term ear hack was used because it was a term previously used in regard to Flash's games. It was repeated for consistency. Not to underlie what occurred in relation to your particular case.

Furthermore, the commentary was in the Korean language, and I believe/know that you had no intention of using the flaw in booth design to your advantage. However, given it exists, many players in your position would have kept quiet. I mentioned the possibility that you stated this in the interview because of adrenaline and excitement. The possibility that a player could have exploited this is real and the purpose of my last statement was not to insinuate that you actually did. I apologize if this was not clear in the original post.

Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
January 26 2011 13:17 GMT
#256
Alright, Im sorry - I felt you were insinuating I would have kept quiet were it not for said adrenaline.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
RetFan
Profile Joined December 2010
32 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-26 15:35:31
January 26 2011 15:28 GMT
#257
No, I'm sorry that I didn't make it more clear in the original post.

Congratulations on your results this GSL and good luck for the future.

I Hope you are still on good terms with MC after your victory against him this season
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-26 17:38:20
January 26 2011 17:38 GMT
#258
Np, yep we are - hes not one to hold a grudge over a game!
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
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