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On January 09 2011 08:13 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:44 Austere wrote:
I think this is great in the long run but I think it might create serious issues in the short run. This is speculative on my part, as I haven't played on these maps or seen anyone play on them, but it's possible that the balance of the game that we have right now will be a bit different when the average game structure is changed to fit the generally larger map pool.
Isn't Terran in a bit of trouble with a map pool like this? Zerg units are by and large fast moving, and can also spawn in significant numbers at expansions simply due to their macro mechanics and Protoss has Warp Gate technology. Terran has.... Medivacs? Also I believe it is generally accepted that a Zerg not harassed properly by a Terran player is advantaged or a Protoss player who is allowed to macro and tech too freely is advantaged against Terran. I'm not trying to say the sky is falling or derail into a discussion about balance, but I could see these factors being an issue. The new maps will encourage macro games, obviously Terran is lacking in that department compared to Zerg and Protoss, hence why Terran can be safely buffed if games are played on larger maps. The maps will require some rebalancing, but it will (hopefully) be for the better.
I highly doubt Blizzard will balance the game around unofficial maps.
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Well if the maps are as "macro-oriented" as everyone says, then get ready to watch Zerg mass mutalisk harrass and dominate.
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I just played Aiur's Garden and I don't really like close positions, is that fixable?
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On January 09 2011 07:03 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:44 Austere wrote:
I think this is great in the long run but I think it might create serious issues in the short run. This is speculative on my part, as I haven't played on these maps or seen anyone play on them, but it's possible that the balance of the game that we have right now will be a bit different when the average game structure is changed to fit the generally larger map pool.
Isn't Terran in a bit of trouble with a map pool like this? Zerg units are by and large fast moving, and can also spawn in significant numbers at expansions simply due to their macro mechanics and Protoss has Warp Gate technology. Terran has.... Medivacs? Also I believe it is generally accepted that a Zerg not harassed properly by a Terran player is advantaged or a Protoss player who is allowed to macro and tech too freely is advantaged against Terran. I'm not trying to say the sky is falling or derail into a discussion about balance, but I could see these factors being an issue. Go watch flash play bw. same situation there, and made worse by the fact zerg has lurkers. In sc2, it should be very possible to use drops, hellion harass to open up the zerg. Not to mention the fact that a faster 3rd or 4th means terran has more income and can max and remax faster: thus mitigating one of the advantages of zerg.
Yeah i think thats the issue is Terran needs that third and once it has it the gas intensity of a unit doesn't really matter. Most Terrans, even me are used to getting 2 bases really quick, but hesitate to grab the third. I blame the map pool that makes mobility a requirement for thirds.
Note how alot of these maps seem easy to defend with siege tanks. Hope they get into the next patch pool.
Also i think later game terran has to actively/effectively harass throughout the game and can't falter in macro EVER(Which makes terran the race with the highest skill ceiling imho)
A banshee here a group of hellions their, Terran has the best harass and to win you have to take advantage. And as that goes on, you build your Terran ball.
Protoss Techs
Zerg Macros
Terran Harasses and Turtles or is Ubber aggressive with infantry
NOTE: Just noticed the easy Thirds and plentifulness of chokes. You know what that means.  . SIEGE TANKS 
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for all flamers who say the new maps are too big, you cant be from the sc1 communty ...
you will find out sooner or later that its not "funny" to see every game an allin rush, long macro games can be way more entertainment and when i see the first 1hour games on GSL i will be so haaaappy
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On January 09 2011 08:13 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:44 Austere wrote:
I think this is great in the long run but I think it might create serious issues in the short run. This is speculative on my part, as I haven't played on these maps or seen anyone play on them, but it's possible that the balance of the game that we have right now will be a bit different when the average game structure is changed to fit the generally larger map pool.
Isn't Terran in a bit of trouble with a map pool like this? Zerg units are by and large fast moving, and can also spawn in significant numbers at expansions simply due to their macro mechanics and Protoss has Warp Gate technology. Terran has.... Medivacs? Also I believe it is generally accepted that a Zerg not harassed properly by a Terran player is advantaged or a Protoss player who is allowed to macro and tech too freely is advantaged against Terran. I'm not trying to say the sky is falling or derail into a discussion about balance, but I could see these factors being an issue. The new maps will encourage macro games, obviously Terran is lacking in that department compared to Zerg and Protoss, hence why Terran can be safely buffed if games are played on larger maps. The maps will require some rebalancing, but it will (hopefully) be for the better.
Yeah im hoping these new maps reveal imbalances in the macro game and they can be fixed. For example if Steppes of War was in BW, Protoss would win with a 2 gate every game.
Although Blizzard wants a variety of games, rush games should not be part of it. Nobody wants, nor likes rush games. And balancing around such maps is stupidity.
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FINALLY about god damn time they change some of the horrendous maps, this is very exciting.
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Can you drop like at every expansion at Biohazard or does it look like that only?
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United States7166 Posts
these maps look to be a huge improvement over what we have currently. and the important thing here is that the new map process has begun. it will eventually trickle down to the ladder pool and a bunch of other tournaments as well.
words cannot express how happy I am that this is finally happening
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On January 09 2011 08:21 CoR wrote:
for all flamers who say the new maps are too big, you cant be from the sc1 communty ...
you will find out sooner or later that its not "funny" to see every game an allin rush, long macro games can be way more entertainment and when i see the first 1hour games on GSL i will be so haaaappy
Hey wassup. I feel like flaming you but I'll hold back.
There's a limit to how big maps can be. Even in SC1, the larger maps were more zerg favoured because they could drone harder. Same concept applies in SC2. These maps are too big, especially because of how SC2 was balanced around smaller maps. I'm all for having some more regular sized maps such as 128x128 but these ones are overcompensating.
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United States7166 Posts
On January 09 2011 08:26 ngri wrote:
Can you drop like at every expansion at Biohazard or does it look like that only?
you can, but the area to drop is all small for all the spots and all of it can be attacked by roaches (assuming they have vision of cliff)
i'm much more concerned about how ridiculous tank pushes will be to adjacent bases, as they can fit through those tiny passageways completely circumventing the wide open center, the only good area to fight a siege tanked position. at least the distance is fairly long though and air looks fairly strong on that map
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On January 09 2011 08:28 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 08:26 ngri wrote:
Can you drop like at every expansion at Biohazard or does it look like that only? you can, but the area to drop is all small for all the spots and all of it can be attacked by roaches (assuming they have vision of cliff) i'm much more concerned about how ridiculous tank pushes will be to adjacent bases, as they can fit through those tiny passageways completely circumventing the wide open center, the only good area to fight a siege tanked position. at least the distance is fairly long though and air looks fairly strong on that map
Tanks are strong on Biohazard because of that choke, yeah. Getting a surround on a turtling Terran is very difficult, especially since they can wall off wherever they want.
Tanks can also siege most of the natural from the lowground on Tal'Darim Altar- pretty big issue.
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If Blizzard doesn't add these, or future GSL maps to the ladder than the ladder just becomes irrelevant. It's up to them.
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The maps, gameplay-wise, all look pretty high quality. I'm not a fan of rotational symmetry, but it's not as big of a deal on these maps as it is on Delta Quadrant.
Worth noting that Biohazard is ugly as hell. I hope this is an unfinished version, the tileset is so nice (Shakuras Plateau for example) but they obviously put 0 effort into making the map look good. Gameplay first, as always, but I couldn't stand to watch or play games on this one.
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Yes! Outstanding news! This will be a huge boon to the tournament and the game as a whole if its true.
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Oh, and FINALLY the real balancing of the game can start! That's actually one of the best things in my mind.
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I'm really looking forward to the... "balance discussions" that will follow when player favourites start dropping thanks to changed metagame caused by the new maps 
Brace yourselves.
But really, the biggest challenge will be making maps fair to each race. GSL has to prove they can do that before I can personally accept taking these new maps into the map pool.
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Unreal, wish Blizz would also purge some of the maps in the current pool.
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On January 09 2011 08:51 Greentellon wrote:I'm really looking forward to the... "balance discussions" that will follow when player favourites start dropping thanks to changed metagame caused by the new maps Brace yourselves. But really, the biggest challenge will be making maps fair to each race. GSL has to prove they can do that before I can personally accept taking these new maps into the map pool.
Balance discussion for sure will follow... check out this thread for some info on the maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182833
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as long as maps keep changing, this will be awesome. great job GSL
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EPT
