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Hello everyone, monitor from iCCup [aka Pawp] here.
As the thread title suggests, this thread is dedicated to the candidate maps to be used in the GSL.
All of these maps are a step up from current Blizzard maps, and it is a great initiative for the entire Starcraft 2 Community. Players are welcome to give their input on each map, and point out anything that has gone unnoticed (flaws).
Each map will include basic information including map size, total spawns, total bases, and any notable flaws. An overview will be provided, and below it is a short write up on Pro's and Con's found with each map. Keep in mind these are unorthodox maps from what you're used to seeing!
Tal'Darim Altar
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zDFd3.jpg)
- Players: 4
- Total expansions: 20
- Map Bounds: 176x176
- Notable flaws: Natural is tankable, doodads prevent natural wall off
From test games, this map is too big. Games result in turtle fests, favoring zerg, because they can drone until they see the opponent push, then make their entire army off 3 base (due to larvae inject). Long games can be fun, but this map shows to favor zerg inherently.
20 Bases is a lot for any map, especially when they're this spread out. Rush distances are very long, making players uncomfortable to move around the map. Little amounts harass (no cliffs) supports this turtle style play. This map could prove to be balanced, but right now its just too big for races to keep up with Zerg's macro.
Aiur Garden
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pmJeg.jpg)
- Players: 4
- Total expansions: 12
- Map Bounds: 156x156
- Notable flaws: None [so far]
This map is seen as the best of them all. The current issues are chokes and air. The natural is easy to hold, but the 3rd has no room for surrounds/flanks. It makes it difficult for a Zerg to hold a 3rd base against Protoss, especially with a proxy pylon.
Colossi get hit hard on this map, because air can catch them off guard almost anywhere. A player can fly his air units into the wasted space (unused space ie water) and kill colossi from a distance without jeopardizing ground attack. Air units can also harass the natural very easily, considering it is hard to maneuver, and the minerals face out.
Biohazard
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vPxmg.jpg)
- Players: 4
- Total expansions:16
- Map Bounds:143x132
- Notable flaws: Gas geysers glitch, terrain moves when built on
Biohazard is a bizarre map. The entire map seems to have random (noise) terrain, and moves when you build on it. Textures are rather ugly in-game, they're solid colors randomly put places. The entire thing seems somewhat sloppy, but has a unique feel to it.
The 3rd is unbelievably choked, making an aggressive third hard to take. The High Yield mineral only expansion is, from test games, seemingly too close to the 3rd. If you can hold the 3rd, you can hold the High Yield. Don't forget the 3rd is harass-able though!
Terminus Re
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V3r5v.jpg)
- Players: 4
- Total expansions: 16
- Map Bounds: Unknown
- Notable flaws: None [yet]
This map has a very easy-to-take third with a high yield gas, so the main has a 2x ramp.
Crossfire
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/2/2c/Crossfire.jpg/405px-Crossfire.jpg)
- Players: 2
- Total expansions: 10
- Map Bounds: Unknown
- Notable flaws: None [yet]
Crossfire is a map by Blizzard, a direct port of Sin Peaks of Baekdu, which has been released for quite some time now. Currently, the 2x ramp out of the main seems unnecessary, especially considering the natural isn't able to be walled off.
The middle thirds are easy to hold, with the 1x ramp and they're very far out of the normal path. The entire maps is very choked, and can be awkward to fight on 2 base because of the High Ground cut off.
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Feel free to express you opinion, it could get put into the write-up section. If you found any notable flaws, say them here to be added.
Note: If we hear news a map has been removed from the candidates, we will update this thread.
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I played a lot of games on Crossfire. If you want any sort of long macro game, it's the perfect map. Attacking is very dangerous so sometimes it can go to a 200/200 stalemate where both players do not with to give up their position.
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On January 09 2011 08:19 monitor wrote:Hello everyone, monitor from iCCup [aka Pawp] here. As the thread title suggests, this thread is dedicated to the candidate maps to be used in the GSL.All of these maps are a step up from current Blizzard maps, and it is a great initiative for the entire Starcraft 2 Community. Players are welcome to give their input on each map, and point out anything that has gone unnoticed (flaws). Each map will include basic information including map size, total spawns, total bases, and any notable flaws. An overview will be provided, and below it is a short write up on Pro's and Con's found with each map. Keep in mind these unorthodox maps from what you're used to seeing!
Has GSL announced that they will be including their own set of custom maps? Did I miss something?
Conceptually, I like Tal'Darim Altar a lot, though it may be impractical to play on... Aiur Garden is really nice as well, but I'm wondering whether the backdoor expo has destructible rocks?
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Excellent write up. Looking forward to how this develops in the future. Also the BW version of Sin Peaks of Baekdu features a low ground between two pairs of the six "peaks":
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
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On January 09 2011 08:27 Omigawa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 08:19 monitor wrote:Hello everyone, monitor from iCCup [aka Pawp] here. As the thread title suggests, this thread is dedicated to the candidate maps to be used in the GSL.All of these maps are a step up from current Blizzard maps, and it is a great initiative for the entire Starcraft 2 Community. Players are welcome to give their input on each map, and point out anything that has gone unnoticed (flaws). Each map will include basic information including map size, total spawns, total bases, and any notable flaws. An overview will be provided, and below it is a short write up on Pro's and Con's found with each map. Keep in mind these unorthodox maps from what you're used to seeing! Has GSL announced that they will be including their own set of custom maps? Did I miss something? Conceptually, I like Tal'Darim Altar a lot, though it may be impractical to play on... Aiur Garden is really nice as well, but I'm wondering whether the backdoor expo has destructible rocks?
"GSL Code S progamer NSPGenius just posted a thread on PlayXP about GSL official map change.
According to NSPGenius, 4 bad maps will be pulled out from GSL official maps. Those 4 maps are Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, Blistering Sands and unknown one. For replacement, 4 other maps will be used on GSL.
According to a reply from GSL staff, Gisado Star-Challenge is now testing new maps for next GSL season."
Thread seen here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182734
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On January 09 2011 08:30 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 08:27 Omigawa wrote:On January 09 2011 08:19 monitor wrote:Hello everyone, monitor from iCCup [aka Pawp] here. As the thread title suggests, this thread is dedicated to the candidate maps to be used in the GSL.All of these maps are a step up from current Blizzard maps, and it is a great initiative for the entire Starcraft 2 Community. Players are welcome to give their input on each map, and point out anything that has gone unnoticed (flaws). Each map will include basic information including map size, total spawns, total bases, and any notable flaws. An overview will be provided, and below it is a short write up on Pro's and Con's found with each map. Keep in mind these unorthodox maps from what you're used to seeing! Has GSL announced that they will be including their own set of custom maps? Did I miss something? Conceptually, I like Tal'Darim Altar a lot, though it may be impractical to play on... Aiur Garden is really nice as well, but I'm wondering whether the backdoor expo has destructible rocks? " GSL Code S progamer NSPGenius just posted a thread on PlayXP about GSL official map change.
According to NSPGenius, 4 bad maps will be pulled out from GSL official maps. Those 4 maps are Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant, Blistering Sands and unknown one. For replacement, 4 other maps will be used on GSL.
According to a reply from GSL staff, Gisado Star-Challenge is now testing new maps for next GSL season." Thread seen here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182734
Sorry,
I just saw the headline after replying 
But all of those maps are a step up from Steppes, Delta, and Blistering imo, although I would love to see a remake of Steppes that has a longer rush distance and maybe an extra expansion on each side, and minus the rocks at the northmost/southmost expansions. I think it would be a very solid map.
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Aiur Garden is really good, the others are sorta meh. remove steppes imo for aiur and thats it.
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Its too late for me to make a complete analysis, but here is a short summary of how I see the korean maps:
Maps are too big and have too many bases.
-Terrans cant play these maps. Its like playing ZvT on steppes and going 16hatch 15 pool.
-Juding from the games I have watched, a lot of games absolutly nothing happens unitl 12-14min.
Biohazard looks layout wise so weird, but somewhat interesting. The map is is pretty borderline distance wise but its possible id say.
If the all of these high grounds above the natural and third are actually pathable its terrible for obvious reasons.
I guess I dont need to say something about aesthetics.
I have seen a game where they used a different map. They might be randomly testing some until they find some good. I dont expect these to be final.
Even though I think its a great move to include custom maps in the GSL, the maps listed here are equally bad or worse than blizzard current ones.
Is it just me or does the korean mapping scene seem to be way behind the western one?
cheers,
madsquare
edited:
telling from google trans of the GSL staff reply on playxp, it seems they are intentionally looking for bigger maps to prevent cheese and short games.
Its still too late to elaborate why exactly, but I think most of us agree that huge maps are the wrong approach to address this problem?
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Tbh I don't like Crossfire at all, one slight mistake by a zerg and Protoss can forcefield half the army for nothing.
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Is it just me or does the korean mapping scene seem to be way behind the western one?
Keep in mind they haven't been in the game as long, so they have to catch up. Right now their maps are too big though.
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Aiur Garden that is on EU is bugged. If you spawn top left corner, your natural (the down from your base, not the back door expo) has a weird SCV bug. If your SCV doesn't acquire a mineral patch and bounces around looking for one, it moves into the main and sits at the top of the hill. It's as if there looking for an 8th patch and then getting confused that theres only 7.
Don't know if its EU specific or who to report it to? I have replay if required.
EDIT: the map uploaded on EU is different and has an extra base, its this extra one that is bugged. So I think this can be ignored (except by the uploader who should update it  )
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United States7166 Posts
if it is indeed true that zerg is too strong on these large maps, then that's only because blizzard's been balancing their game around their mostly small sized maps. i personally think the game should then be rebalanced around these larger-than-blizz maps as i still think larger sized maps are better for the game overall.
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On January 09 2011 09:38 Zelniq wrote:
if it is indeed true that zerg is too strong on these large maps, then that's only because blizzard's been balancing their game around their mostly small sized maps. i personally think the game should then be rebalanced around these larger-than-blizz maps as i still think larger sized maps are better for the game overall.
hmm, its a good point but i think maybe just choking up some areas could make it harder for zerg.
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On January 09 2011 09:38 Zelniq wrote:
if it is indeed true that zerg is too strong on these large maps, then that's only because blizzard's been balancing their game around their mostly small sized maps. i personally think the game should then be rebalanced around these larger-than-blizz maps as i still think larger sized maps are better for the game overall.
The only issue with large maps is the Queen design.
Creep makes longer games easier and easier to control the map. With long rush distances, zerg unit speed on creep is exponentially faster than other races on big maps (because of rush distance). Creep spread wouldn't necessarily have to change to balance late game, but inject would.
Inject on three base allows a Zerg to drone until the enemy pushes, then make a 200/200 army. They can then rebuild their army before the opponent gets to them. Zerg is just too powerful on big maps, especially when they get to 4 base.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
I think GSL can get way better maps to replace those they aren't satisfied with.
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United States7166 Posts
also it's not practical to think that zerg can just make their entire army once they see enemy move out. for example in zvt, zerg needs to have a standing army already to deal with drops, but more importantly to not let tanks get free reign to move all the way up to zerg's base and siege up before any threat of zerg units.
and in general for all matchups, zerg's method of destroying a maxed army is to fight and lose most or all their units, but remax or reproduce a ton of units with saved larva. if your first fight is just outside your base then theyre too close to you and will suffer too much damage, you want to engage as far away as possible.
as for doing this in this earlier on like in the midgame (say around 7-10 minutes), stalling units for more drones, this is already happening and it's generally agreed upon athat zerg has to/should be doing this by the top players
wait i just re-read monitor's last post..are you saying the maps are so big that zerg can see an army moving out, start making a 200/200 army, lose it, then remax again to 200 before enemy makes it to your base? i find that hard to believe, and also strange that a game would get to such a weird point. what did the zerg have like 7000+ total resources saved up in these games youre speaking of?
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Well obviously, you won't be making your entire army from nothing but you stilll need less of a standing army before he pushes out.
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On January 09 2011 10:31 Zelniq wrote:
also it's not practical to think that zerg can just make their entire army once they see enemy move out. for example in zvt, zerg needs to have a standing army already to deal with drops, but more importantly to not let tanks get free reign to move all the way up to zerg's base and siege up before any threat of zerg units.
and in general for all matchups, zerg's method of destroying a maxed army is to fight and lose most or all their units, but remax or reproduce a ton of units with saved larva. if your first fight is just outside your base then theyre too close to you and will suffer too much damage, you want to engage as far away as possible.
as for doing this in this earlier on like in the midgame (say around 7-10 minutes), stalling units for more drones, this is already happening and it's generally agreed upon athat zerg has to/should be doing this by the top players
wait i just re-read monitor's last post..are you saying the maps are so big that zerg can see an army moving out, start making a 200/200 army, lose it, then remax again to 200 before enemy makes it to your base? i find that hard to believe, and also strange that a game would get to such a weird point. what did the zerg have like 7000+ total resources saved up in these games youre speaking of?
I think what monitor is trying to say is that they can do that in the early/mid game which sets them up to have a brutally advanced economy in the late game so that they can start throwing away 200/200 armies. That is exactly the problem we ran into on Enigma and why it was cut from the monthly map pool.
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On January 09 2011 10:31 Zelniq wrote:
also it's not practical to think that zerg can just make their entire army once they see enemy move out. for example in zvt, zerg needs to have a standing army already to deal with drops, but more importantly to not let tanks get free reign to move all the way up to zerg's base and siege up before any threat of zerg units.
and in general for all matchups, zerg's method of destroying a maxed army is to fight and lose most or all their units, but remax or reproduce a ton of units with saved larva. if your first fight is just outside your base then theyre too close to you and will suffer too much damage, you want to engage as far away as possible.
as for doing this in this earlier on like in the midgame (say around 7-10 minutes), stalling units for more drones, this is already happening and it's generally agreed upon athat zerg has to/should be doing this by the top players
wait i just re-read monitor's last post..are you saying the maps are so big that zerg can see an army moving out, start making a 200/200 army, lose it, then remax again to 200 before enemy makes it to your base? i find that hard to believe, and also strange that a game would get to such a weird point. what did the zerg have like 7000+ total resources saved up in these games youre speaking of?
Hmmm.. I did do a rather bad job explaining my reasoning. Note that this balance issue is only apparent on gigantic maps (144x144+).
The basic idea is:
On a map with long rush distances, no cliff harass, and close expansions (like Tal'Darim Altar), a Zerg on 3+ bases can reproduce their army too fast.
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Two base Zerg can make enough units to fend off early attacks. Then they take their 3rd. With three easy-to-hold bases and long distances, they can safely drone as long as they scout+defend harass. When they scout the full Terran army pushing, they can make their own army from stockpiled larvae and have it ready in time for attack.
This is generally how Zerg works, but on big maps combined with creep (to provide vision and speeds up rush distance) this is amplified. Terran and Protoss can't keep up with Zerg's ability to macro.
edit//: This.
I think what monitor is trying to say is that they can do that in the early/mid game which sets them up to have a brutally advanced economy in the late game so that they can start throwing away 200/200 armies. That is exactly the problem we ran into on Enigma and why it was cut from the monthly map pool.
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If you guys would like to see games on the maps then go to http://www.gomtv.com/game/
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/EsztG.jpg)
Click on that then the title of the vid or thumbnail of the vid.
When you press play you will need to install something, it takes a few seconds, press the button on the left.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/SLo1H.jpg)
Low and high quality vids 
btw when you play a vid, you will have to watch 4-5 ads, then you will see the game, then 4 or 5 more then another one.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/6_Sin%20Peaks%20of%20Baekdu.jpg)
