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GSL S and A League and the Up/Down format revealed - Page 7

Forum Index > Community News and Headlines
158 CommentsPost a Reply
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The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 15:38:47
December 16 2010 15:36 GMT
#121
On December 16 2010 22:53 shannn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 22:45 DTWolfwood wrote:
I like the Code S system. But you only get a real round robin when its 1-1 all or 2-0 2-0

if its 2-0 1-1 1-1 0-2 you only get to watch the 1-1 play in M3

Well Code A Best of ONE kinda sux... must be because of time constraints

This is to avoid tie breakers and above all for the possibility of a group with more than 2 members of the same team. This to ensure they won't rig the matches (obviously you won't eliminate rigging matches entirely).


I don't understand what's wrong with using the difference between games won and games lost, or the match between two players with the same record, to decide who gets the position in the league. It's what they do in sports all over the world, and what GomTV already did in the Code A qualifications matches.
You Got The Touch
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
December 16 2010 16:05 GMT
#122
On December 17 2010 00:36 The Touch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 22:53 shannn wrote:
On December 16 2010 22:45 DTWolfwood wrote:
I like the Code S system. But you only get a real round robin when its 1-1 all or 2-0 2-0

if its 2-0 1-1 1-1 0-2 you only get to watch the 1-1 play in M3

Well Code A Best of ONE kinda sux... must be because of time constraints

This is to avoid tie breakers and above all for the possibility of a group with more than 2 members of the same team. This to ensure they won't rig the matches (obviously you won't eliminate rigging matches entirely).


I don't understand what's wrong with using the difference between games won and games lost, or the match between two players with the same record, to decide who gets the position in the league. It's what they do in sports all over the world, and what GomTV already did in the Code A qualifications matches.

Updated my post you quoted.

And I have posted in my OP why they did it the way they have mentioned it.


If only 1 player has won 2 games and 2 players are at 1-1 then the players with 1-1 will proceed to play again in playday 3 making it an effective Bo3.
The player that loses the first 2 games is automatically 4th and is demoted to Up and Down matches for Code S next Season and does not need to play according to the explainations in the first original post.

The difference in won and lost is the same for those players at 1-1 Only difference is that 1 player was up 1-0 before they played and the other 0-1.
Since the guy who was 0-1 won from the guy who was up 1-0 they will now play a rematch making it an effective Bo3.

Basically this also gives an advantage to players winning their first matches because then you only need to win once against the next opponent whereas if you lost the first match you have to win 2 times in a row against the same opponent while starting 0-1 behind in a bo3 (note the 0-1 is from your loss on your first match).

Basically this sytem makes every match very important except in 1 scenario which is the 2-0 / 1-1 / 1-1 / 0-2 group (the 0-2 won't need to play a third game then because he lost 2 games in a row making him inevitably 4th due to this system).

It's a good system while trying to aim for as less games as possible while still providing intense group plays. There won't be any tie breakers this way.

I will try to update my OP with a graphical image for everyone who doesn't understand how it actually is when I get back in 1.5 hours or so.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
vuduu
Profile Joined July 2010
31 Posts
December 16 2010 16:26 GMT
#123
I dont really care for the format, or the groups. But I love all these players I cant wait for gsl 2011!
Wivyx
Profile Joined May 2009
Norway624 Posts
December 16 2010 16:37 GMT
#124
I'm not too fond of this system at all. Say if player D is clearly the weaker player. A beats B and C beats D. Then A beats D and B beats C. Now we're at A 2-0, B 1-1, C 1-1, D 0-2. With this system B and C will play again to see who'll advance.

That's very unfair because B had to play the stronger player A, whilst C played the weaker player D. B have yet to play D and C yet to play A. Instead of having to beat player A, player C gets a rematch against B.

On top of that D could make it a three way tie at 1-2 after three rounds.
vectorix108
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4633 Posts
December 16 2010 16:39 GMT
#125
team kills galore!
Aka XephyR/Shaneyesss
mdma-_-
Profile Joined October 2010
Nauru1213 Posts
December 16 2010 17:30 GMT
#126
Imo they should just make the groups with winner/loser bracket.
So A-B and C-D would play first round. Then the winners play each other and the two losers play eah other. WB winner becomes place 1. The player who loses the losers game is out. An the remaining two battle for 2./3. place. In total that would be 5 games per group, no tiebrakers needed and everybody would need 2 wins to advance.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
December 16 2010 18:07 GMT
#127
People need to realise it's only partially a round robin format.
You need to think of it as a double elimination / round robin format.

Do you play every person in a double elimination bracket? no.
GOM has put it a bit unfortunately but they did mention GOM's method in groupstages.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
Typhon
Profile Joined July 2009
United States387 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 18:29:46
December 16 2010 18:26 GMT
#128
On December 17 2010 01:37 Wivyx wrote:
I'm not too fond of this system at all. Say if player D is clearly the weaker player. A beats B and C beats D. Then A beats D and B beats C. Now we're at A 2-0, B 1-1, C 1-1, D 0-2. With this system B and C will play again to see who'll advance.

That's very unfair because B had to play the stronger player A, whilst C played the weaker player D. B have yet to play D and C yet to play A. Instead of having to beat player A, player C gets a rematch against B.

On top of that D could make it a three way tie at 1-2 after three rounds.


What you're missing is that C is a higher seed than B. Remember, A was seed from top 8, and C was seeded from top 16.

Of course it's unfair to B, that's the point of the seeding ... that the top two players in each group (A/C) don't have to eliminate each other. That just makes the top players more likely to make it to the playoff rounds, and it's a good incentive to try to make it to top 16 or top 8 each season.
Typhon
Profile Joined July 2009
United States387 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:20:58
December 16 2010 18:38 GMT
#129
On December 17 2010 01:05 shannn wrote:
Basically this also gives an advantage to players winning their first matches because then you only need to win once against the next opponent whereas if you lost the first match you have to win 2 times in a row against the same opponent while starting 0-1 behind in a bo3 (note the 0-1 is from your loss on your first match).


but isn't that the same as saying "you're playing a bo3" because it's a given that in a bo3 you win when you win 2 games?
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:07:52
December 16 2010 18:52 GMT
#130
On December 17 2010 01:05 shannn wrote:
Updated my post you quoted.

...

It's a good system while trying to aim for as less games as possible while still providing intense group plays. There won't be any tie breakers this way.


Don't get me wrong, I understand what they're doing, and I can see that they're trying to minimise the number of games played (or more to the point, probably the number of games being casted, so that they can fit both the Code A and Code S tournaments in), but I don't understand why tie breakers are something that should be avoided. There are a number of very simple and quick ways of differentiating players who otherwise have the same record.
You Got The Touch
Antoine
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States7481 Posts
December 16 2010 19:04 GMT
#131
There's no simple way to differentiate in a 3-way tie, as can often happen in a 4-person round robin (3-0 1-2 1-2 1-2 or 2-1 2-1 2-1 0-3).
ModeratorFlash Sea Action Snow Midas | TheStC Ret Tyler MC | RIP 우정호
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:20:18
December 16 2010 19:16 GMT
#132
On December 17 2010 03:38 Typhon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2010 01:05 shannn wrote:
Basically this also gives an advantage to players winning their first matches because then you only need to win once against the next opponent whereas if you lost the first match you have to win 2 times in a row against the same opponent while starting 0-1 behind in a bo3 (note the 0-1 is from your loss on your first match).


It's equivalent to round robin in either case, they just don't play the games that have no impact on advancement or next season's ranking

Starting from:
2-0 ---- 1-1 ---- 1-1 ----- 0-2

then after players B and C play, it would be
2-0 , 2-1, 1-2, 0-2

so basically, the 1-2 player can't advance even if player A loses (he'd at most be tied for last), so why play the A-D game if it has no bearing on who advances?

Otherwise, you have after the second day:
2-0, 2-0, 0-2, 0-2 or
1-1 x4.

1-1 x4 playing out is standard round robin,
2-0 x2 has already decided the top 2, when you play the remaining round robin, it would be for deciding A/B positions and not who advances. 16-32 are equivalently the same rank, so C/D do not need to play.

quoting myself from OP

Playday 3 has 3 scenario's as GOM has posted it.

If after 2 Playdays there are 2 players who has won 2 games then they proceed to Ro16 but they will still play eachother in playday 3 to determine group rankings. So it will be a full round robin in this case.

If only 1 player has won 2 games and 2 players are at 1-1 then the players with 1-1 will proceed to play again in playday 3 making it an effective Bo3.
The player that loses the first 2 games is automatically 4th and is demoted to Up and Down matches for Code S next Season and does not need to play according to the explainations in the first original post.

Third scenario is if there are all 4 players who are 1-1 then the remaining matches will be played against eachother who hasn't faced eachother making it a normal round robin group again.

Exactly what you just said.


Basically this also gives an advantage to players winning their first matches because then you only need to win once against the next opponent whereas if you lost the first match you have to win 2 times in a row against the same opponent while starting 0-1 behind in a bo3 (note the 0-1 is from your loss on your first match).

What is wrong with that statement?
If you lose your first match you are 0-1. You take that into account against your next opponent because if you win that game you will be 1-1. Then you play again against the same opponent. Doesn't this equate to a Bo3 ? Lose 1st match and you're 0-1 behind and have to win 2 times which means it's 2-1 just like in a Bo3.

If you win your first match you're 1-0 meaning if you win again you're through to the ro16 which is also basically a bo3. The third match when you're 2-0 against another 2-0 means to determine the ranks first or second which seems to have some sort of impact on the 2nd groupstage. Whereas if you are the only one with 2-0 after 2 rounds then you're 1st and don't have to play again which is in the OP. So my statement about winning the first match having a big advantage is wrong?

I honestly can't see what you are trying to correct me if you are trying to correct me.

On December 17 2010 03:52 The Touch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2010 01:05 shannn wrote:
Updated my post you quoted.

...

It's a good system while trying to aim for as less games as possible while still providing intense group plays. There won't be any tie breakers this way.


Don't get me wrong, I understand what they're doing, and I can see that they're trying to minimise the number of games played (or more to the point, probably the number of games being casted, so that they can fit both the Code A and Code S tournaments in), but I don't understand why tie breakers are something that should be avoided. There are a number of very simple and quick ways of differentiating players who otherwise have the same record.

Tie brakers are never easy to differentiate. If you can tell me an easy way without getting a tie breaker after having a tie breaker between 3 players then the system is wrong that GOM posted.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
Turing
Profile Joined April 2010
United States211 Posts
December 16 2010 19:19 GMT
#133
On December 16 2010 15:52 Letitfly wrote:
Does anyone think that the koreans fear the foreigners? So they pit the only 2 foreigners in S class against each other. I mean what are the odds they would be in the same group and the play each other first round. Just seems like the group drawing could have been fixed alittle. Just saying


The match-ups aren't random, they're determined by ranking in Code S.
The Touch
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom667 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:32:35
December 16 2010 19:23 GMT
#134
On December 17 2010 04:04 Antoine wrote:
There's no simple way to differentiate in a 3-way tie, as can often happen in a 4-person round robin (3-0 1-2 1-2 1-2 or 2-1 2-1 2-1 0-3).


On December 17 2010 04:16 shannn wrote:
Tie brakers are never easy to differentiate. If you can tell me an easy way without getting a tie breaker after having a tie breaker between 3 players then the system is wrong that GOM posted.


I do agree that it's worth avoiding tie breakers when using a BO1 format, though there are still simple and easy solutions to differentiating (such as the extra series used by OSL), but then it's not exactly quick.

But frankly BO1 is an awful format, both for the players and for the viewers, especially with the current map pool. I would vastly prefer BO3 round robin group stages. It would be far easier to differentiate between players in that situation, based on individual games won and lost, and you can always fall back on the series between the players in question (which happens in regular sports, as well as in the Code S Determination matches) if their overall 'goal difference', so to speak, is the same.

You Got The Touch
Typhon
Profile Joined July 2009
United States387 Posts
December 16 2010 19:24 GMT
#135
@shannn, not trying to correct you, just trying to clarify the logic. I edited my previous post to make it shorter. basically, you said that it gives an advantage to the player who wins first, but in any kind of bo3, you'd have to win 2 matches, so it's the same kind of "oh, if you win 2 in a row you dont' have to play the third game anymore" kind of advantage.
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:44:19
December 16 2010 19:38 GMT
#136
On December 17 2010 04:24 Typhon wrote:
@shannn, not trying to correct you, just trying to clarify the logic. I edited my previous post to make it shorter. basically, you said that it gives an advantage to the player who wins first, but in any kind of bo3, you'd have to win 2 matches, so it's the same kind of "oh, if you win 2 in a row you dont' have to play the third game anymore" kind of advantage.

It was talking about the mental state you get in when you win the first match which is the same as in a bo3.
Being behind has more pressure as you only need to lose once rather than two times so it's actually more advantageous if you're starting 1-0 in a Bo3 rather than 0-1. It's a mental state which the player puts himself in going in a match.
It's still the same thing which comes down to if you win the 2nd and 3rd game but the state you start into a match is advantageous or not? That's what I meant.

On December 17 2010 04:23 The Touch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2010 04:04 Antoine wrote:
There's no simple way to differentiate in a 3-way tie, as can often happen in a 4-person round robin (3-0 1-2 1-2 1-2 or 2-1 2-1 2-1 0-3).


Show nested quote +
On December 17 2010 04:16 shannn wrote:
Tie brakers are never easy to differentiate. If you can tell me an easy way without getting a tie breaker after having a tie breaker between 3 players then the system is wrong that GOM posted.


I do agree that it's worth avoiding tie breakers when using a BO1 format, though there are still simple and easy solutions to differentiating (such as the extra series used by OSL), but then it's not exactly quick.

But frankly BO1 is an awful format, both for the players and for the viewers, especially with the current map pool. I would vastly prefer BO3 round robin group stages. It would be far easier to differentiate between players in that situation, based on individual games won and lost, and you can always fall back on the series between the players in question (which happens in regular sports, as well as in the Code S Determination matches) if their overall 'goal difference', so to speak, is the same.


Isn't the extra series longer ? Yea you answered that. Which GOM doesn't want.

Bo3 is better than bo1 yes. But GOM can't do that for now as it's more expensive and takes more time which they can't do for some reasons.

Now take those into account and the way GOM has set it up now is the best method based on what the time and budget asks for apparently.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
oprandom
Profile Joined November 2010
United States33 Posts
December 16 2010 20:32 GMT
#137
The best thing about this is they put the priority in matching players of similar skill, and advancing as many top players as possible in the fewest matches.
I will random you
oprandom
Profile Joined November 2010
United States33 Posts
December 16 2010 21:04 GMT
#138
Code A indeed is like a second chance. It's like double elimination, where all the players who got eliminated get dropped to Code A. Besides, the whole point is to decide who gets to move to Code S and if you lose your first game someone else is going to be more deserving
I will random you
Lamphead
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada241 Posts
December 16 2010 21:58 GMT
#139
so...what happens if a person in Code S gets sick, say, and they can't play on of the GSL leagues...they automatically drop to Code A?!
We didn't lose the game. We just ran out of time. - Vince Lombardi
LittLeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden7973 Posts
December 16 2010 22:55 GMT
#140
Couldnt be more excited for this.
I think the system is great (Okay, I dont understand it 100 % but it looks good)
and 2011 will be the Glory year of SC2!
☆Grubby ☆| Tod|DeMusliM|ThorZaiN|SaSe|Moon|Mana| ☆HerO ☆
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