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On July 16 2009 23:10 TheYango wrote:
Ugh, I hate these "Bisu/Jaedong/Whatever Bonjwa" threads. They're stupid, devolve into a flamefest, and inevitably, the mentioned player starts losing a little ways down the line.
No, Bisu is not a Bonjwa. No, Jaedong is not a Bonjwa. Saying anything about either of them being Bonjwa just proves that you haven't been following professional Starcraft for nearly long enough.
I'm a Bisu fan. I will agree that he's the best player to ever play Protoss. But to say that he's a Bonjwa is to ignore the sheer dominance and power of past Bonjwas.
^^ That made some sense.
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Like most people have said, there is no bonjwa at the moment, but Jaedong is closest.
Also, while Flash has faltered a bit lately, Fantasy and Effort are coming up fast. At the moment I would put Flash/Effort/Fantasy in the second tier of progamers, just under Jaedong/Bisu.
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On July 17 2009 10:17 piratebay wrote:
u aint a bonjwa till u honestly know in your heart, no matter who this guy goes up against, he comes out victorious. whether it be a 4 pool rush, proxy bunker rushes, proxy dual gates, nething. it doesn't matter. (check savior in his prime and his invinciblity to cheese)
but bisu... if he faces flash, jaedong, stork, fantasy, effort or by.hero, it's a coin toss who will come out on top.
it's ridiculous to expect any player to win every match they play. even iloveoov at the peak of his dominance dropped games and his bonjwa run was imo the most dominating.
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I dont see bisu getting bonjwa anytime soon, but one could make an argument for jaedong IF he manages to take home both osl and msl.
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Bisu can't be the last sc1 bonjwa, he plays Protoss!
I say go Jaedong..
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^^
That's the point, there should be a Bonjwa for each race, and Bisu is the best fit.
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I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events.
Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse
oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's
sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja.
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On July 17 2009 11:15 lolaloc wrote:
I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events.
Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse
oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's
sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja.
i think for savior it was something like either 2 consecutive msl, runner up and another msl win followed by osl. he dominated for a span of like 18 months or so? bisu has never dominated for more than one season, he always tapers off after a win, goes into a slump, then comes back.
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Basically, when Chojja interrupted Savior, Savior was still the best Zerg player and still the best player in that tournament. When Bisu faltered to Mind, it was just Mind being so good at that point to dismantle Bisu and the rest of his competition -- the same goes, in a lesser way (considering maps), to when ForGG trounced Jaedong. Then he didn't make the final of the next MSL. He never went on a solid run that dominated a series of tournaments besides his 2 back to back MSLs, which was good, but not amazing nor Bonjwa like.
It's the same reason a lot of people won't really consider Jaedong Bonjwa if he wins this OSL and MSL -- That's still only 2 seasons of dominance (1 OSL win, followed by 1 OSL and an MSL and the same time), and not a period as long as any of the past bonjwas. He may end up the most accomplished player ever, even if he's not Bonjwa.
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On July 17 2009 11:20 piratebay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2009 11:15 lolaloc wrote:
I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events.
Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse
oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's
sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja. i think for savior it was something like either 2 consecutive msl, runner up and another msl win followed by osl. he dominated for a span of like 18 months or so? bisu has never dominated for more than one season, he always tapers off after a win, goes into a slump, then comes back.
all the bonjwas has 3 MSL and a OSL except boxer but winning the titles doesnt make them bonjwa it was just that they dominated in their time. Look at boxer with only one MSL and look at july with a golden mouse but noone ever says july is a bonjwa because of titles
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On July 17 2009 11:15 lolaloc wrote:
I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events.
Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse
oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's
sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja. I have to agree. Nobody will deny Bisu is strong... but he's never dominated for a long enough period to earn the title. A little sad though, for balance reasons it would be nice to have a P bonjwa.
If at nothing else, Bisu is certainly the most important P.
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Can we disown you now?
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Of anyone is close to being Bonjwa it is Jaedong. Even he isn't at a relatively higher level among the rest of the players to be called bonjwa though.
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I dont think either are bonjwa, but I noticed a little fun fact.
Bisu's record since 10/11/2008 is 101 wins - 34 losses (74.81%)
Jaedong's record since 12/12/2008 is 85 wins - 32 losses (72.65%)
If you go any farther back, the win rate drops lower. I remember a graph a while ago where Savior's prime is around 72% win rate (I might be wrong).
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I like (I can't remember who first posted this)'s requirements for Bonjwa:
1. Major tournament success (4 major titles or so, w/e)
2. Significant impact on the game
3. Dominance over a sustained period of time
Bisu is close to #1 and has #2, but without #3 he is not Bonjwa.
Edit- and unless Jaedong continues dominating he isn't either. And given his loss to Effort he isn't dominant enough.
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LOL i love this treads.. its like people rooting for his fav progamer and bashing the others...
for me the bjonwa are extint... and the only bjonwa are the older ones, Jaedong is just the best and probably will be the best progamer ever. (if he doesnt burn out)
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Ya - theres a lot of back n forth of "bisu's really good" and "bisu's no bonjwa"..
I dont think there should be a real term of "bonjwa" or not - I know its basically a term meaning most-dominant or untouchable pro-gamer.. but it's all coincidental or semi-temporary..
I mean sure, its good that there are S-class pro-gamers, but I think we should leave it at that..
I mean.. there is no permament dominance of a pro-gaming scene - sure Savior did for a long time, but he wasnt (obviously) permanately dominant.. until he ran into the Revolutionist.
I think it's more formal and appropriate to lable them as S and A class progamers.. 'cause no one will be purely untouchable.
Those are some really impressive statistics by the other players, oov, savior, boxer and nada - but its just because @ the time, they were in their prime and prolly most focused and determined to be successful.
Bisu was super successful when he went into the osl or msl which ever, when he ran into Fantasy, but got 3-0'd. Jaedong was prolly expected to be winning this upcoming gom final, until he got 2-0'd by Effort.. Its all circumstancial.
Likewise though, i'll agree and definately support Bisu as the #1 Protoss to have ever graced the pro-gaming stage (success rate wise) but the whole bonjwa term.. especially for Protoss - is kinda fragile - when there are so many ways to lose a game, i.e. queens from type-b or vult run-by's or sneaky drops from Fantasy etc.
I don't think anyone is truely untouchable. Every game is determined by many aspects. Luck, attitude, scouting, pressure and etc.
but gL to all players.
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I don't think there will be a next bonjwa before sc2 comes out, no progamer is dominating atm and i dont think it will change in the near future
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EPT
