I'd like to Apologize, I misclicked "preview" and accidentally clicked Post. Anyway here's it is.
The Very First Protosss to Reach #1 in the KESPA Rankings, #3 Most Wins at the Shinhan Bank Proleague, #3 at the Power Ranks. The Only Protoss to Ever win 3 StarLeagues. And the sole survivor of the Protoss Race.
Bisu
Everyone knows there are 3 S-Class Players right know who are Near-Bonjwa Status, namely, Flash, Jaedong, and of course, Bisu.
It all started way back on 2007. The Battle of the Maestro, and Bisu. Savior was the Bonjwa back then, considered as the "Scourge of Protoss" destroying everyone in his path. But it was until....
It was on GOM TV MSL were the 4th Bonjwa fell at the hands of the newly claimed "Revolutionist". Reining supreme, Bisu was appointed by the Xel Naga as the "Perfect Creation". Bisu, was pure in form, and essense. He knew what to do at any given situation, and won another MSL.
Time passed, and his "Perfection" began to fade, losing to Mind at the 3rd GOM TV MSL. And suddenly disappeared... But it was not long, when the Gods of StarCraft: Brood War, and was appointed as the "Pretty Boy Toss" sent out on 1 mission, to be Perfect once more, and be called a "Bonjwa".
Soon after, he and his fellow Race, dominated the Scene, Bisu leading his Race into "The Golden Age of Protoss" destroying everyone in his Path, taking his 3rd MSL, closer.. and closer... to being called "Bonjwa".
But alas, his reign was short lived, when he got kicked of the MSL, and OSL, destroying the dreams of the Bisu Fanboys around the world, the dream of their hero, becoming a Bonjwa. But it was his fall, that made him even stronger, when the Gods of OSL, gave him another chance by letting him replace Backho's spot for the OSL. Soon after, he dominated his opponents, left and right. Until.. haters chanted a spell on him. Cursing him, never ever to win an OSL in his life. So it happened, the Most Powerful of the Protoss Race, was but destroyed, but his Ally, getting 3-0ed by his good friend Fantasy.
The quest to Bonjwaism continues, it was indeed tough for him to lose and OSL, his very dream. Especially, when it could have been a Bisu vs Jaedong Final. But alas, one must move on, to become even stronger. So he did, Bisu grew stronger and stronger with each passing day, mentally and physically. Reaching the round of 16 of both the Avalon MSL, and the Bacchus OSL. But alas, the curse, Bisu losing to Zero and go.go getting kicked out of the OSL, because his Insurance Terran, insured that Bisu won't make it to Ro8. However, it was time for a rematch, Fantasy vs Bisu once again.
So it's time for Payback, as Bisu faces his good friend Fantasy once again, but this time, on MSL, which looks more epic than OSL atm. Destroying fantasy at game 1, defending against, the master of vultures, and simply OWNING him till the end. Off to game 2, where he displays his knowledge of the game, knowing Fantasy would wall, he uses his brain, and 2 gate Zeals his way into victory.
Bisu is now at the Ro8, as well as Jaedong. The most epic match, the world will ever see (next to -Combat-EX- vs Chill) which was destroyed by Fantasy last OSL, may now finally come. Bisu vs Jaedong in the finals. Yes it is indeed epic, knowing Bisu and Jaedong, they will both reach the Final and one of them will indeed succeed. As iloveoov, Nada, and Savior ahs done, to be considered a Bonjwa, one must win 3 MSLs, and the immediate OSL after. Bisu has not yet achieved this, but times change.
It was The Emperor, who was the very first to be called a "Bonjwa" but he never took the same path, as the other 3 did. He took it differently. Now, after over 10 years in the making, StarCraft: Broodwar is about to give way, to his decendant, StarCraft II. It is only fitting, that the 1st Bonjwa, and the Last Bonjwa, take a different path to Bonjwaism.
Bisu, Bisu, Bisu, the "Revolutionist", eXecutor of the Protoss Fleet, and Soon to be Bonjwa. Bisu has this in the bag. And win Avalon MSL easily, even if he will face a "rival", namely Jaedong. It will indeed be epic. Epic enought that everyone will respect him as...
Like everytime one of Bisu/Flash/JD is on an amazing streak and people start making threads about them being bonjwa's, irony makes them lose a few games right after the thread gets up and an amazing flamefest follows.
While Bisu is the most succesfull and perhaps most talent protoss ever, his Bonjwa status is arguable. I just hope he won't start losing because of this thread.
On July 16 2009 22:31 FirstBorn wrote: Like everytime one of Bisu/Flash/JD is on an amazing streak and people start making threads about them being bonjwa's, irony makes them lose a few games right after the thread gets up and an amazing flamefest follows.
While Bisu is the most succesfull and perhaps most talent protoss ever, his Bonjwa status is arguable. I just hope he won't start losing because of this thread.
yeah knowing these threads, bisu is going to be losing soon
Bisu isn't Bonjwa, there's no doubt he's the best toss but he still isn't far enough ahead of Jaedong and Fantasy to be considered Bonjwa.
Flash isn't anywhere near being bonjwa, too inconsistent.
Edit: I'm not saying Flash is bad, I have a lot of respect for the guy, it's just that I don't think he's quite on the same level as Bisu and Jaedong and that Fantasy has been a very good contender for best T lately.
On July 16 2009 22:38 Scorch wrote: Bisu and Jaedong would both be bonjwas if it weren't for the existence of the respective other.
Add Flash to that and you have a true statement. There is no simple bonjwa at this current time, period. The skill level of those three is that good that it's impossible to pinpoint a 'bonjwa' out of those three (although Flash is definitely struggling as of late, no denying that).
On July 16 2009 22:38 SuperArc wrote: and wasnt savior the first person to be called bonjwa?
It was first mentioned in an interview during Shinhan-3 by a FiFo reporter doing an interview with Savior where he mentioned the term 'bonjwa'. Since then, us foreigners have seemed to applied it to previous generations.
On July 16 2009 22:38 SuperArc wrote: and wasnt savior the first person to be called bonjwa?
Yes
then they realised previous players (the other 3 bonjwas) did as well as savior during their time, so people called them bonjwa too, but only because of savior.
In all seriousness, Bisu's chances of winning the MSL are not that great, and Jaedong has a staggering lead on him in the Kespa rankings. His lead is almost worth a 1000 points, that's the same as sAviOr scored when he was in his prime, against the #2 KesPa at the time, Nada.
........ If he won the last OSL ("Bisu's Destiny"), i suppose he *could* be called a bonjwa, but that's still debatable due to his lack of dominance. However, he lost 3-0 to Fantasy. There are many talented players that have won titles, yet never held the title of Bonjwa. Reach, Ra, and Julyzerg are probably the most prominent ones. I think Bisu, as well as JD and Flash, will fit in their group.
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
On July 16 2009 22:45 minus_human wrote: hmmm... bisu - bonjwa? never
it feels good to be a hater
In all seriousness, Bisu's chances of winning the OSL are not that great, and Jaedong has a staggering lead on him in the Kespa rankings. His lead is almost worth a 1000 points, that's the same as sAviOr scored when he was in his prime, against the #2 KesPa at the time, Nada.
Unless you're talking about future OSLs (which I too think he won't be able to win that easily, because OSL mapmakers hate toss :p), he is already out of the current OSL
On July 16 2009 22:45 minus_human wrote: In all seriousness, Bisu's chances of winning the OSL are not that great.
Hey, 0% chance is pretty good isn't it?
Anyways, hasn't there been enough of this bonjwa talk? It's too ambiguous and up in the air as to who is the top player right now in the SC scene. Isn't being bonjwa all about being like the absolute best? If there's any doubt at all, then bonjwa he is not.
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
I like how I knew what the post was about by just reading the topic title and who played in the MSL.
Anyway
The fact that this kind of topic appears after nearly every single Ro16 win means the exact opposite of what the topic creators are trying to get across.
you can't call someone bonjwa if most people doesn't acknowledge it. Boxer and savior are bonjwas coz people agree and acknowledge that they are really bonjwas.
Oh, I was looking more at the winning percentage (which was a little above 65%), and not his performance in the leagues (he did OK in proleague though). I don't think it's fair to say that he's as much dependent on maps as other players, especially zergs, because the overall zerg winning percentage was under 50%. Sure, he played worse than his previous form, but he still played far better than "dropping out of the ro16" gives him credit for.
Anyway, I guess this thread dooms bisu to a relatively early and disappointing exit from the MSL, eh?
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
JD won WCG :p and raped in PL
and Bisu had never the "OSL curse" hahaha
WCG had blue storm though. That was jaedong's map.
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
JD won WCG :p and raped in PL
and Bisu had never the "OSL curse" hahaha
Bisu has the ultimate OSL curse, the Korean WCG qualifications were waaaay before the TaekBang, not to mention that WCG is using completely different maps.
Your JD fanboys is ok, but your hate towards Bisu is the most annoying thing to happen to me since Liverpool won the CL in the final vs Milan. Many ppl here dont like Bisu, but are so much more reasonable in their posts than you. If you want to learn how to express your feelings for him read some posts of Avidkeystamper or Atrioc
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
JD won WCG :p and raped in PL
and Bisu had never the "OSL curse" hahaha
Bisu has the ultimate OSL curse, the Korean WCG qualifications were waaaay before the TaekBang, not to mention that WCG is using completely different maps.
Your JD fanboys is ok, but your hate towards Bisu is the most annoying thing to happen to me since Liverpool won the CL in the final vs Milan. Many ppl here dont like Bisu, but are so much more reasonable in their posts than you. If you want to learn how to express your feelings for him read some posts of Avidkeystamper or Atrioc
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
JD won WCG :p and raped in PL
and Bisu had never the "OSL curse" hahaha
Bisu has the ultimate OSL curse, the Korean WCG qualifications were waaaay before the TaekBang, not to mention that WCG is using completely different maps.
Your JD fanboys is ok, but your hate towards Bisu is the most annoying thing to happen to me since Liverpool won the CL in the final vs Milan. Many ppl here dont like Bisu, but are so much more reasonable in their posts than you. If you want to learn how to express your feelings for him read some posts of Avidkeystamper or Atrioc
Still remember that while Savior was destroying everyone in the MSL a few years back, he still uberly failed in the OSL, getting stuck in prelims and survivor stages for quite a while. Everyone still considered him bonjwa though cause he was destroying everything in MSL.
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
JD won WCG :p and raped in PL
and Bisu had never the "OSL curse" hahaha
Bisu has the ultimate OSL curse, the Korean WCG qualifications were waaaay before the TaekBang, not to mention that WCG is using completely different maps.
Your JD fanboys is ok, but your hate towards Bisu is the most annoying thing to happen to me since Liverpool won the CL in the final vs Milan. Many ppl here dont like Bisu, but are so much more reasonable in their posts than you. If you want to learn how to express your feelings for him read some posts of Avidkeystamper or Atrioc
I find it quite ironic how you're talking about fanboys and yet you diss one of the greatest CL finals in the history just because your favorite team did not win.
Ugh, I hate these "Bisu/Jaedong/Whatever Bonjwa" threads. They're stupid, devolve into a flamefest, and inevitably, the mentioned player starts losing a little ways down the line.
No, Bisu is not a Bonjwa. No, Jaedong is not a Bonjwa. Saying anything about either of them being Bonjwa just proves that you haven't been following professional Starcraft for nearly long enough.
I'm a Bisu fan. I will agree that he's the best player to ever play Protoss. But to say that he's a Bonjwa is to ignore the sheer dominance and power of past Bonjwas.
On July 16 2009 22:45 minus_human wrote: hmmm... bisu - bonjwa? never
it feels good to be a hater
In all seriousness, Bisu's chances of winning the OSL are not that great, and Jaedong has a staggering lead on him in the Kespa rankings. His lead is almost worth a 1000 points, that's the same as sAviOr scored when he was in his prime, against the #2 KesPa at the time, Nada.
Unless you're talking about future OSLs (which I too think he won't be able to win that easily, because OSL mapmakers hate toss :p), he is already out of the current OSL
On July 16 2009 22:31 disciple wrote: hmmm I wonder how Jaedong did during the Taek-Bang season...
Considering the maps, he did incredibly well. Bisu himself commented once with amazement on Jaedong's ability to dominate the scene even when the entire zerg race is slumping.
JD was out from every competition in the Ro16, at least now bisu is the only toss to make it to Ro8 of some league. Jd is as much as map dependable as everyone
JD won WCG :p and raped in PL
and Bisu had never the "OSL curse" hahaha
Bisu has the ultimate OSL curse, the Korean WCG qualifications were waaaay before the TaekBang, not to mention that WCG is using completely different maps.
Your JD fanboys is ok, but your hate towards Bisu is the most annoying thing to happen to me since Liverpool won the CL in the final vs Milan. Many ppl here dont like Bisu, but are so much more reasonable in their posts than you. If you want to learn how to express your feelings for him read some posts of Avidkeystamper or Atrioc
I find it quite ironic how you're talking about fanboys and yet you diss one of the greatest CL finals in the history just because your favorite team did not win.
I hate both Milan and Liverpool with passion. What annoyed my as fuck was the liverpool fans' reaction after this match...
I will never discredit Jaedong from his accomplishments but he was as metagame and map balance dependable as the other zerg players during TaekBang. PL is something completely different - ask Sea, he raped shit in PL but failed on the same maps in the individuals.
Our last real Bonjwa was sAviOr... Then currently the one closest to it would probably be jaedong Bonjwa's have been awarded for not life time performance but more like dominance over a period solid of time. Bisu, jaedong and Flash are just Semi-Bonjwa as their dominance during any time has been short lived maybe stiff competition between the 3, i really though this would have been a jaedong post.
On July 16 2009 22:45 minus_human wrote: hmmm... bisu - bonjwa? never
it feels good to be a hater
In all seriousness, Bisu's chances of winning the MSL are not that great, and Jaedong has a staggering lead on him in the Kespa rankings. His lead is almost worth a 1000 points, that's the same as sAviOr scored when he was in his prime, against the #2 KesPa at the time, Nada.
This is probably a better mark when you lead by a huge amount over number 2 ranked player, we adding little quarks to make it superstitious later like 3 msl 1 osl along with things like toppled the one before him etc.
I am so glad you made this thread, now Bisu will go into slump mode and JD can proceed to take both leagues. Thanks!
Oh, and when are people finally going to start acknowledging the fact that Flash is starting to slip out of the top 3 due to fantasy playing so well? Right now people should be saying there can't be a bonjwa because of the JD/bisu/fantasy trio. Flash is playing terrible atm.
The competition is just so thick right now, it's very hard to be a bonjwa for these guys even if they reach and surpass the level of previous bonjwas. Both Bisu and Jaedong are best at their races for quite a while, but they can't just run over everything. Map making and discovery of all the new build orders simply made the game so much more balanced and competitive then ever, if that even sounds possible.
jaedong and bisu both dont consistently dominate each other, so neither of them can be a bonjwa. and even as a bisu fan i must admit that from an objective point of view bisu and jaedong both possess about the same amount of "greatness".
On July 17 2009 01:13 Black Gun wrote: jaedong and bisu both dont consistently dominate each other, so neither of them can be a bonjwa. and even as a bisu fan i must admit that from an objective point of view bisu and jaedong both possess about the same amount of "greatness".
It's not necessarily on their record vs. each other. It's easy to see that Jaedong is better overall - he's done better in the individual leagues, and there's no doubt to that. And don't give me this "curse" BS and all this crap about "map dependencies" because at the end of the day it's the man that is playing better that walks away from a BOx match. Neither of them are Bonjwas, but Bisu has no chance to be now, and JD is the only one with a chance. He may be able to do it, but he needs to keep his form up and continue dominating.
On July 17 2009 01:19 Stratos_speAr wrote: It's not necessarily on their record vs. each other. It's easy to see that Jaedong is better overall - he's done better in the individual leagues, and there's no doubt to that. And don't give me this "curse" BS and all this crap about "map dependencies" because at the end of the day it's the man that is playing better that walks away from a BOx match. Neither of them are Bonjwas, but Bisu has no chance to be now, and JD is the only one with a chance. He may be able to do it, but he needs to keep his form up and continue dominating.
He's not dominating right now even. He's doing better than anyone else, but not by a wide enough margin for the term "dominating" to be appropriate.
First off, Bisu wasn't a Bonjwa. He was on a 3 month streak, hardly bonjwa. Bonjwa's winning streaks have to be linked or else Julyzerg would be considered a Bonjwa. Second off, Fantasy has been better then Flash for quite some time now.
Didn't the 'Bisu Bonjwa' thing get knocked out already? To be a bonjwa you have to be virtually invencible for a certain amount of time, isn't it? Even if he gets an OSL win...
He never took into account that Iris is going to rape the piss out of Bisu
lol? bisu can practice with fantasy, pretty much the strongest tvp player out there right now. i really dont see bisu being defeated by iris. im rather afraid of zergs as the zvp metagame seems to be shifted quite far towards z atm.
Still remember that while Savior was destroying everyone in the MSL a few years back, he still uberly failed in the OSL, getting stuck in prelims and survivor stages for quite a while. Everyone still considered him bonjwa though cause he was destroying everything in MSL.
Yeah, but what we remember is that he did eventually take the gold in OSL towards the end of his dominance. And at the same time he looked scary in the superfights in a couple of ways:
1) He was number one and killed Boxer, which was expected, in the hyped Superfight. His win was expected, but the fact the match took place was a testimony to his prowess. (poor boxer. I was so sad.)
2) NaDa, whose nuts I was hanging onto so tightly, ended up falling in the Superfight 3 (I think) and in the OSL to Savior. (It was a good thing he did get the revenge though in the Masters.)
3) Savior all-killed the Superfight 'Ace' tournament basically.
It was all happening so fast and almost congruent. He had trashed MSL, qualified and won OSL, and won those special exhibitions.
True though, there was a time when he couldn't take OSL, but there was also a time when he was in the finals and was winning.
He never took into account that Iris is going to rape the piss out of Bisu
lol? bisu can practice with fantasy, pretty much the strongest tvp player out there right now. i really dont see bisu being defeated by iris. im rather afraid of zergs as the zvp metagame seems to be shifted quite far towards z atm.
On July 16 2009 22:21 ReCharge wrote: Reining supreme, Bisu was appointed by the Xel Naga as the "Perfect Creation". Bisu, was pure in form, and essense.
The problem lies in the fact that people have various opinions on what makes a Bonjwa, since a Bonjwa is not an official title and hence does not have official criteria by which players can be judged. Some say that the ELO ranking is important, others say that the number of titles is important, yet others say that it has nothing to do with scores etc.
Until some form of minimal requirements become an official standard by which Bonjwa are measured, threads such as this will continue to appear.
Bisu doesn't want to be bonjwa. He's aiming much higher. Add that to the bazillion different criterion people are using for "bonjwa", and we'll never have another. If Bisu continues to win tournaments and such, he will need a different title, as he has done things very differently. If he doesn't, then there is no problem.
In either case, the term of bonjwa can safely be retired.
The Very First Protosss to Reach #1 in the KESPA Rankings, #3 Most Wins at the Shinhan Bank Proleague, #3 at the Power Ranks. The Only Protoss to Ever win 3 StarLeagues. And the sole survivor of the Protoss Race.
bisu's been 70% pvz, 76% pvt and 78% pvp since his incruit loss to stork. Hes a fucking beast. Cant that be enough? Lets cut these impossible expectations on Bisu, Jaedong, etc.
As much as I love JD, even if he did win both the OSL and MSL I still wouldn't consider him a bonjwa until he made it to 3 more OSL finals (win or lose). A bonjwa is someone who shows a long period (At least a year) of dominance/invincibility. I don't think there WILL be a bonjwa in any case. The two halfjwas will ride SC1 off into abyss.
Meh, they're are so many great players right now, that the next bonjwa would have to do something that made everyone go "wtf, hows that even possible?" OR they could just cheese it up every game.. to rise up just that much higher than everyone else.
On July 17 2009 05:16 Saracen wrote: Although the content kind of sucks, I like the effort put into the OP. BTW, why is there a spoiler tag in the title?
It was mentioned that Bisu and Jaedong qualified to Ro8 of MSL.
Anyways, if Bisu does win this MSL, he will be both the first Protoss to win 4 SLs and the first PLAYER to win 4 MSLs Too bad he'll never win an OSL XD
what the hell? okay, bisu really is a s-class player, but from my point of view jeadong is so much closer to the bonjwa status than you can ever imagine :o
On July 17 2009 05:16 Saracen wrote: Although the content kind of sucks, I like the effort put into the OP. BTW, why is there a spoiler tag in the title?
It was mentioned that Bisu and Jaedong qualified to Ro8 of MSL.
Anyways, if Bisu does win this MSL, he will be both the first Protoss to win 4 SLs and the first PLAYER to win 4 MSLs Too bad he'll never win an OSL XD
If Bisu wins his 4th MSL, he will be in a club of his own and I hope plexa's point that "kids grow up with the dreams to win the OSL so Stork's 1 osl >>>> Bisu's 3 MSL, and therefor Stork is the more accomplished player" will finally be put aside...
Imagine Stork being more accomplished...or flash... or casy...
lol Go.go, Hwasin and Zero vs. Flash, Effort and Yarnc....I take the latter three any day, only a blind Bisu fanboy would say that Jaedong's group is way easier.
I think it's good that starcraft finishes with no true bonjwa...shows how the game evolved to a state where the top players are constantly bringing each other down...and no one can be truly dominant.
On July 17 2009 07:06 ForTenPoints wrote: lol Go.go, Hwasin and Zero vs. Flash, Effort and Yarnc....I take the latter three any day, only a blind Bisu fanboy would say that Jaedong's group is way easier.
I think it's good that starcraft finishes with no true bonjwa...shows how the game evolved to a state where the top players are constantly bringing each other down...and no one can be truly dominant.
Bisu was in the former group so you are kinda contradicting yourself unless I'm misunderstanding you "taking" them..
On July 17 2009 07:06 ForTenPoints wrote: lol Go.go, Hwasin and Zero vs. Flash, Effort and Yarnc....I take the latter three any day, only a blind Bisu fanboy would say that Jaedong's group is way easier.
I think it's good that starcraft finishes with no true bonjwa...shows how the game evolved to a state where the top players are constantly bringing each other down...and no one can be truly dominant.
It's not just who the players are, it's how Bisu/Jaedong would do vs his set of opponents. Bisu had to play go.go on Return of the King which he probably thought was imba therefore did stupid shit, and Zero's ZvP is seriously ridiculous; who would have thought of queens? Plus Zero had already denied Bisu a chance in Lost Saga MSL so I don't get why you would think he's an easy opponent for Bisu. Jaedong, however, had 2 ZvZs which is really easy for him, plus Flash was being really really bad vs Z in that series; did you see how easily he lost?
I think Bisu would have done way better if he had a Flash Effort and Yarnc group. Yarnc is sub 50% ZvP (1-3 vs bisu), and Bisu is also 3-0 against Effort. Bisu also played a lot of games vs Flash so he should be familiar with him and his style, and if he played like he did in GOM then he should be able to beat flash again. I would be more surprised if Bisu didn't make out of a Flash Effort and Yarnc group.
wow, not going to happen. Even if he wins his 4th MSL, it's not as if he has been so incredibly dominant. Sure, he has dominated the MSL, but what about the OSL. July has 3 OSLs and isn't a bownja. It isn't just a matter of titles. They are important, but more than anything it is a feeling/era of domination.
there will be no bonjwa. flash is out of the osl and msl. jaedong is going to crash because he does EVERYTHING for his team and is in gom, osl and msl. and bisu just rises and falls between A class and S class.
because bonjwa was so debatable didn't we agree that: bonjwa = (1)OSL+(3)MSL
like July has a golden mouse but isn't bonjwa (isn't even in heritage league) but flash has 2 titles and he is in the race for the title? okay...
if the OP didn't have a T1 badge on and if Bisu didn't have such a large number of fanboys, i might have been a bit more convinced. until Bisu wins his OSL, he's not a bonjwa.
On July 17 2009 08:31 redtooth wrote: because bonjwa was so debatable didn't we agree that: bonjwa = (1)OSL+(3)MSL
like July has a golden mouse but isn't bonjwa (isn't even in heritage league) but flash has 2 titles and he is in the race for the title? okay...
if the OP didn't have a T1 badge on and if Bisu didn't have such a large number of fanboys, i might have been a bit more convinced. until Bisu wins his OSL, he's not a bonjwa.
By your logic, Boxer wouldn't qualify as a Bonjwa, which would be disgustingly false. It doesn't matter if Bisu wins this MSL and the next OSL, his dominance has been too fractured -- after his loss to Mind and not even making it to the finals of the next MSL, people didn't even consider him the top of his race, much less of the world.
The only person who's got a chance is Jaedong. A lot of people will say Bonjwa if he pulls a Boxer + nada (golden mouse, back to back OSLs), and it'll be hard to argue if he also pulls a Nal_Ra (OSL and MSL win in the same season). These are major ifs, so I don't think we can ever count on someone going bonjwa for quite some time.
The only logical outcome of this discussion on the fifth bonjwa, is that the title of the last bojwas of SC1 is shared between flash,bisu and jaedong...
He's only qualified for MSL right now. OSL would always be more prestigious, it's just that he gets kicked out of it. Good for him he gets kicked out because calling someone insurance.
he aint no bonjwa, he doesnt even have a fucking osl
*edit* not to mention, he isn't a clear standout above the rest of the crowd. he just got knocked out of the osl in one of the easiest brackets, of his making again.
is he the favorite in the MSL when jaedong is still alive and kicking? hell no. plus, i dont doubt one of the dark horses knocking him out before he even reaches the finals.
u aint a bonjwa till u honestly know in your heart, no matter who this guy goes up against, he comes out victorious. whether it be a 4 pool rush, proxy bunker rushes, proxy dual gates, nething. it doesn't matter. (check savior in his prime and his invinciblity to cheese)
but bisu... if he faces flash, jaedong, stork, fantasy, effort or by.hero, it's a coin toss who will come out on top.
On July 16 2009 23:10 TheYango wrote: Ugh, I hate these "Bisu/Jaedong/Whatever Bonjwa" threads. They're stupid, devolve into a flamefest, and inevitably, the mentioned player starts losing a little ways down the line.
No, Bisu is not a Bonjwa. No, Jaedong is not a Bonjwa. Saying anything about either of them being Bonjwa just proves that you haven't been following professional Starcraft for nearly long enough.
I'm a Bisu fan. I will agree that he's the best player to ever play Protoss. But to say that he's a Bonjwa is to ignore the sheer dominance and power of past Bonjwas.
Like most people have said, there is no bonjwa at the moment, but Jaedong is closest.
Also, while Flash has faltered a bit lately, Fantasy and Effort are coming up fast. At the moment I would put Flash/Effort/Fantasy in the second tier of progamers, just under Jaedong/Bisu.
u aint a bonjwa till u honestly know in your heart, no matter who this guy goes up against, he comes out victorious. whether it be a 4 pool rush, proxy bunker rushes, proxy dual gates, nething. it doesn't matter. (check savior in his prime and his invinciblity to cheese)
but bisu... if he faces flash, jaedong, stork, fantasy, effort or by.hero, it's a coin toss who will come out on top.
it's ridiculous to expect any player to win every match they play. even iloveoov at the peak of his dominance dropped games and his bonjwa run was imo the most dominating.
I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events. Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja.
On July 17 2009 11:15 lolaloc wrote: I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events. Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja.
i think for savior it was something like either 2 consecutive msl, runner up and another msl win followed by osl. he dominated for a span of like 18 months or so? bisu has never dominated for more than one season, he always tapers off after a win, goes into a slump, then comes back.
Basically, when Chojja interrupted Savior, Savior was still the best Zerg player and still the best player in that tournament. When Bisu faltered to Mind, it was just Mind being so good at that point to dismantle Bisu and the rest of his competition -- the same goes, in a lesser way (considering maps), to when ForGG trounced Jaedong. Then he didn't make the final of the next MSL. He never went on a solid run that dominated a series of tournaments besides his 2 back to back MSLs, which was good, but not amazing nor Bonjwa like.
It's the same reason a lot of people won't really consider Jaedong Bonjwa if he wins this OSL and MSL -- That's still only 2 seasons of dominance (1 OSL win, followed by 1 OSL and an MSL and the same time), and not a period as long as any of the past bonjwas. He may end up the most accomplished player ever, even if he's not Bonjwa.
On July 17 2009 11:15 lolaloc wrote: I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events. Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja.
i think for savior it was something like either 2 consecutive msl, runner up and another msl win followed by osl. he dominated for a span of like 18 months or so? bisu has never dominated for more than one season, he always tapers off after a win, goes into a slump, then comes back.
all the bonjwas has 3 MSL and a OSL except boxer but winning the titles doesnt make them bonjwa it was just that they dominated in their time. Look at boxer with only one MSL and look at july with a golden mouse but noone ever says july is a bonjwa because of titles
On July 17 2009 11:15 lolaloc wrote: I thought the requirement to be bonjwa is to achieve something:
BoxeR - two consecutive OSL's (with one MSL) and dominating other special events. Nada - 3 consecutive MSL's and Golden Mouse oov - 3 consecutive MSL's and 2 OSL's sAviOr - 3 MSL's and 1 OSL
For me, if Jaedong wins both MSL and OSL (Golden Mouse), he proves that he is the bonjwa of this generation.
Bisu just doesn't cut it because he cannot extend his domination to win consecutive titles. Considering his non-consecutive third MSL win is just underrating Nada and Oov's achievement. Also, sAviOr was able to follow up with an OSL win despite dropping one MSL to Chojja.
I have to agree. Nobody will deny Bisu is strong... but he's never dominated for a long enough period to earn the title. A little sad though, for balance reasons it would be nice to have a P bonjwa.
If at nothing else, Bisu is certainly the most important P.
LOL i love this treads.. its like people rooting for his fav progamer and bashing the others... for me the bjonwa are extint... and the only bjonwa are the older ones, Jaedong is just the best and probably will be the best progamer ever. (if he doesnt burn out)
Ya - theres a lot of back n forth of "bisu's really good" and "bisu's no bonjwa".. I dont think there should be a real term of "bonjwa" or not - I know its basically a term meaning most-dominant or untouchable pro-gamer.. but it's all coincidental or semi-temporary..
I mean sure, its good that there are S-class pro-gamers, but I think we should leave it at that.. I mean.. there is no permament dominance of a pro-gaming scene - sure Savior did for a long time, but he wasnt (obviously) permanately dominant.. until he ran into the Revolutionist.
I think it's more formal and appropriate to lable them as S and A class progamers.. 'cause no one will be purely untouchable. Those are some really impressive statistics by the other players, oov, savior, boxer and nada - but its just because @ the time, they were in their prime and prolly most focused and determined to be successful.
Bisu was super successful when he went into the osl or msl which ever, when he ran into Fantasy, but got 3-0'd. Jaedong was prolly expected to be winning this upcoming gom final, until he got 2-0'd by Effort.. Its all circumstancial. Likewise though, i'll agree and definately support Bisu as the #1 Protoss to have ever graced the pro-gaming stage (success rate wise) but the whole bonjwa term.. especially for Protoss - is kinda fragile - when there are so many ways to lose a game, i.e. queens from type-b or vult run-by's or sneaky drops from Fantasy etc.
I don't think anyone is truely untouchable. Every game is determined by many aspects. Luck, attitude, scouting, pressure and etc.
And given his loss to Effort he isn't dominant enough.
I think you're either
A) Overestimating Bisu's "impact on the game"
or
B) Underestimating the bonjwa's impact on the game.
Someone (I believe Plexa) once highlighted what each bonjwa brought to the game. In a very rough paraphrase it was: BoxeR was micro, NaDa was management, Oov was macro and sAviOr was timing.
I recognize Bisu definitely had an impact on the way people play Protoss, but not to the extent that other races were adopting from him. They were adapting to him.
He never took into account that Iris is going to rape the piss out of Bisu
lol? bisu can practice with fantasy, pretty much the strongest tvp player out there right now. i really dont see bisu being defeated by iris. im rather afraid of zergs as the zvp metagame seems to be shifted quite far towards z atm.
Savior had something crazy like 7 MSL finals in a row. That's dominance. Same for the other bonjwas. If Jaedong wins the OSL, he'll be the most accomplished and best skill-wise zerg (though he already is), but he won't have that dominant air because Bisu, and potentially Fantasy, Flash, and Effort. Not being bonjwa doesn't take anything away from anybody when you consider his competition. I can definitely see JD being the GOAZ without being bonjwa. Not now, but with a few more titles.
On July 17 2009 14:48 TwoStep wrote: Savior had something crazy like 7 MSL finals in a row. That's dominance. Same for the other bonjwas. If Jaedong wins the OSL, he'll be the most accomplished and best skill-wise zerg (though he already is), but he won't have that dominant air because Bisu, and potentially Fantasy, Flash, and Effort. Not being bonjwa doesn't take anything away from anybody when you consider his competition. I can definitely see JD being the GOAZ without being bonjwa. Not now, but with a few more titles.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/2/27/BisuBio.png)
Flash, 
Jaedong, and of course, 
Bisu.![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/en/gfx/msl-banner.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/thumb/d/d1/Bisusavior.jpg/120px-Bisusavior.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/images/people/bisu_chickenpox_232.jpg)
