What you guys think about this?
personally i support prop 8 but i really wouldnt care either way im just not a fan of gay marriage what do you guys think about this supreme court decision?
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TheDarkSwarM
United States4 Posts
What you guys think about this? personally i support prop 8 but i really wouldnt care either way im just not a fan of gay marriage what do you guys think about this supreme court decision? | ||
ulszz
Jamaica1787 Posts
i mean 2 in the pink 1 in the stink? srsly? however, i believe anyone should have the right to marriage. and the whole "but god says marriage is between a man and woman" is utter bullshit. wut happend to division of church and state. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15317 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
However, I am against prop 8. I just don't get why people are so concerned that the institution of marriage will somehow be corrupted if people of the same gender are allowed to marry. Luckily, in the future California should only become more liberal as the conservative christians become old and die off. | ||
R3condite
Korea (South)1541 Posts
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iNcontroL
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USA29055 Posts
Discuss the subject perhaps not the banning. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
In a sense, petitioners' and the attorney general's complaint is that it is just too easy to amend the California constitution through the initiative process. But it is not a proper function of this court to curtail that process; we are constitutionally bound to uphold it. Basically, the Court was not in a position to rule for or against gay marriage per se, and thus their ruling should not be interpreted as the Court taking a position on gay marriage. California's direct democracy measures are responsible for much more damage than Proposition 8 - there's an interesting article in last week's Economist that sums up how propositions and initiatives have led to legislative gridlock and massive budget problems in CA. It's recommended reading for any Californian and an interesting case study in the shortcomings of direct democracy. | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
Alec Baldwin makes the case + Show Spoiler + Why Childless Straight Couples Make the Case for Gay Marriage I don't know what the best perspective is on the gay marriage issue. I don't know what to say to people to convince them that the issue of individual rights alone is enough to grant gay couples the right to marry. We live in a time when the idea of individual rights has been relegated to a quaint afterthought during the realignment of American values resulting from the current brawl between capitalism and democracy. One perspective, however, keeps coming back at me. Fundamentalists believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and for the purpose of creating a family. A gay couple is incapable of having their own children, they assert, so they do not qualify to be married. But what of heterosexual couples who marry with no intention of having children. Beyond any issues of infertility or illness, there are men and women who are married in the eyes of the state, enjoying all of the legal benefits, who have no intention of having children. They seek only companionship and all of the entitlements that come with marriage. Sex, joy, partnership, caring. All of that is theirs, even though they will never bear children and willfully so. If the state says they are free to do that, why aren't gay couples, as well. This country denies gay couples that right only by asserting that gay Americans do not have the exact same rights as those deliberately childless straight couples. And that is to say that homosexuality itself is illegal. Opponents would have to say that they do not want gay couples to enjoy the same lifestyle as straight couples who refuse to have children because gay Americans are not entitled to have the sex, joy, partnership and caring that their straight counterparts have. They would, therefore, have to outlaw homosexuality itself. Either that or outlaw every single marriage wherein that couple refuses to raise a family. One or the other. That's it. No other choice. Do you think this society is prepared to outlaw homosexuality? Even with all the fear and hatred of homosexuals that some groups promulgate today? Think about that. Think about the effort and cost involved to argue that case. To write and manifest those laws. To prosecute them and punish the "transgressors." Will our society similarly outlaw childless heterosexual marriage? Of course not. That is ridiculous in the extreme. Ridiculous and wrong. Once you embrace this basic idea, the rest of the argument falls into place. Gay couples are free not only to marry, but to create families in every way that heterosexual couples who cannot bear their own children do. Adoption, surrogacy, etc. One does not have to possess one molecule of identification with the gay cultural or political experience in this country to believe that gay Americans have the right to marry. Such a stance is not similar to saying, "I always wanted to play the piano so I favor government scholarships for music study." You do not need to have one ounce of affinity for gay people in our society whatsoever to recognize that they are being shamefully wronged every day we allow this to continue. | ||
InToTheWannaB
United States4770 Posts
I don't think having gay parents will make a child gay or anything silly like that. Still your going to take a crap load of verbal abuse with gay parents. I'm not sure its right to put a child threw that. I guess the alternative is having no parents at all, but the point is gay adoption seems like a better issuse to debate then gay marriage. | ||
Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:18 TheDarkSwarM wrote: So proposition 8 in California was challenged in the supreme court by all the Gay people in California and it was upheld and kept outlawing gay marriage for the foreseeable future What you guys think about this? personally i support prop 8 but i really wouldnt care either way im just not a fan of gay marriage what do you guys think about this supreme court decision? Why aren't you a fan of gay marriage? They deserve to suffer like everyone else. | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
I am not educated enough to really discuss all the court related stuff. I simply have voted 2 times in four years to try and legalize gay marriage and it hasn't worked out =(. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:34 JWD wrote: California's direct democracy measures are responsible for much more damage than Proposition 8 - there's an interesting article in last week's Economist that sums up how propositions and initiatives have led to legislative gridlock and massive budget problems in CA. It's recommended reading for any Californian and an interesting case study in the shortcomings of direct democracy. This problem may be most obvious in California, but it is by no means unique to California; every single year I see fucking stupid garbage get put on my state's ballots. | ||
selboN
United States2523 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:47 AttackZerg wrote: I can't believe gay marriage keeps getting denied =(. Its so embarassing for me. I am very proud of where I'm from but if the most liberal state can't even treat people as equals what hope do all the crappy-redneck states in the bible belt have. I am not educated enough to really discuss all the court related stuff. I simply have voted 2 times in four years to try and legalize gay marriage and it hasn't worked out =(. So, what "crappy-redneck states" are you referring to? I think your lack of education goes deeper than just your ignorance to the legal system. | ||
Railz
United States1449 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:31 R3condite wrote: well at least during that short interval of time ppl were allowed to marry rite? so i've heard anyways Short? There are a ton of pre-married gay couples in California. This banning idea is new to this year. Bullshit I say, when a state like Iowa somehow manages to get more more morales then California where gay rights first were even heard of. | ||
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RaGe
Belgium9945 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:42 InToTheWannaB wrote: I personally think that gay marriage is fine. Its not hurting anyone if two gay people get hitched. What always surprises me is how fiercely people with fight over gay marriage, but no one talks about gay adoption. I don't think having gay parents will make a child gay or anything silly like that. Still your going to take a crap load of verbal abuse with gay parents. I'm not sure its right to put a child threw that. I guess the alternative is having no parents at all, but the point is gay adoption seems like a better issuse to debate then gay marriage. I think alot of people that are against gay marriage should actually just be against gay adoption. Their arguments mostly only apply for religious marriage or adoption. I have not come across any real argument against gay marriage yet, and can't imagine there being any to be honest. I'm always in utter disbelief when people say "it just feels wrong" and think that's enough of an argument. Have you ever heard that in any other debate as a valid argument? Some people are just too narrow-minded. No gay marriage is pure discrimination. | ||
Railz
United States1449 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:51 selboN wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:47 AttackZerg wrote: I can't believe gay marriage keeps getting denied =(. Its so embarassing for me. I am very proud of where I'm from but if the most liberal state can't even treat people as equals what hope do all the crappy-redneck states in the bible belt have. I am not educated enough to really discuss all the court related stuff. I simply have voted 2 times in four years to try and legalize gay marriage and it hasn't worked out =(. So, what "crappy-redneck states" are you referring to? I think your lack of education goes deeper than just your ignorance to the legal system. Bullshit. Education has nothing to do with culturing. Anyone who has traveled the USA can attest to what the difference in cultural differences between a state like New York and a state like Tennessee. He is absolutely correct, if not a bit harsh. Nothing but the courts is stopping Gay Marriage in California - only thing stopping them is the monetary support coming in from the Mormons in Utah. | ||
AlTheCake
Canada1071 Posts
I hope gay people in the U.S. can marry soon, though. And kudos to all the people who voting against prop 8. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. | ||
Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:51 selboN wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:47 AttackZerg wrote: I can't believe gay marriage keeps getting denied =(. Its so embarassing for me. I am very proud of where I'm from but if the most liberal state can't even treat people as equals what hope do all the crappy-redneck states in the bible belt have. I am not educated enough to really discuss all the court related stuff. I simply have voted 2 times in four years to try and legalize gay marriage and it hasn't worked out =(. So, what "crappy-redneck states" are you referring to? I think your lack of education goes deeper than just your ignorance to the legal system. Everything south of Missouri. Don't try to pretend it isn't true.. because it is. I know, i've lived in Texas for 17 years. | ||
InToTheWannaB
United States4770 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:34 JWD wrote: It's important to note that the California Supreme Court had its hands tied somewhat in this case, because it makes its rulings based on the CA Constitution (and Prop 8 amends the CA Constitution to prohibit gay marriage). Here's the gist of the majority opinion: Show nested quote + In a sense, petitioners' and the attorney general's complaint is that it is just too easy to amend the California constitution through the initiative process. But it is not a proper function of this court to curtail that process; we are constitutionally bound to uphold it. Basically, the Court was not in a position to rule for or against gay marriage per se, and thus their ruling should not be interpreted as the Court taking a position on gay marriage. California's direct democracy measures are responsible for much more damage than Proposition 8 - there's an interesting article in last week's Economist that sums up how propositions and initiatives have led to legislative gridlock and massive budget problems in CA. It's recommended reading for any Californian and an interesting case study in the shortcomings of direct democracy. Did anyone see the last Real Time with Bill Maher? "No one can govern this state(California) because it's illegal to do it. We govern by ballot initiative. And we only write two kinds of those: spend money on things I like; and don't raise my taxes. We vote yes on gain, no on pain. This is why America's founders wanted a representative democracy. Because they knew if you gave the average guy the chance, he'd vote for a fantasy world with no taxes, free beer and vagina trees" ahhh classic | ||
ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:34 JWD wrote: California's direct democracy measures are responsible for much more damage than Proposition 8 - there's an interesting article in last week's Economist that sums up how propositions and initiatives have led to legislative gridlock and massive budget problems in CA. It's recommended reading for any Californian and an interesting case study in the shortcomings of direct democracy. The special election almost definitely cost more money than what will be saved from the one proposition that passed. What a farce. | ||
selboN
United States2523 Posts
Psh fuck it. Just let it be known, I'm from Texas and I'm not a "red-neck". | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:51 selboN wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:47 AttackZerg wrote: I can't believe gay marriage keeps getting denied =(. Its so embarassing for me. I am very proud of where I'm from but if the most liberal state can't even treat people as equals what hope do all the crappy-redneck states in the bible belt have. I am not educated enough to really discuss all the court related stuff. I simply have voted 2 times in four years to try and legalize gay marriage and it hasn't worked out =(. So, what "crappy-redneck states" are you referring to? I think your lack of education goes deeper than just your ignorance to the legal system. Actually is it based off of travel, I used lack of education as a way of avoid a detailed discussion that wouldn't mean anything to me. All of the crap states include ..... get real man I'm not setting that one up. Sorry but being white and looking mexican and traveling east and not north taught me alot about how many really terrible parts there are to this country? Why so defensive are you from one of those crappy redneck states? | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:02 selboN wrote: EDIT: Psh fuck it. Just let it be known, I'm from Texas and I'm not a "red-neck". Texas is not a crappy state. I was treated very kind there. Also if you live in dallas I envy you, hottest girls I've ever seen! | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. Im not hateful at all, and no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. You appeared to have missed my point completely. I am talking about a specific sacred bond, that is between a man and a women that help carry on the human race. I am not saying gays can't have a sacred bond, I am just saying that the bond they have shouldn't be called marraige. The definition of marraige is clearly laid out in my post. You talk about the strawman fallacy at the end of your post yet your whole reply was fallacious. Your accusing of being hateful, putting words in my mouth, and picking out certain parts of my argument. Why don't u try responding the evolutionary reason to why humans have marraige in the first place? Then we can have a good argument. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:54 Railz wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:51 selboN wrote: On May 30 2009 07:47 AttackZerg wrote: I can't believe gay marriage keeps getting denied =(. Its so embarassing for me. I am very proud of where I'm from but if the most liberal state can't even treat people as equals what hope do all the crappy-redneck states in the bible belt have. I am not educated enough to really discuss all the court related stuff. I simply have voted 2 times in four years to try and legalize gay marriage and it hasn't worked out =(. So, what "crappy-redneck states" are you referring to? I think your lack of education goes deeper than just your ignorance to the legal system. Bullshit. Education has nothing to do with culturing. Anyone who has traveled the USA can attest to what the difference in cultural differences between a state like New York and a state like Tennessee. He is absolutely correct, if not a bit harsh. Nothing but the courts is stopping Gay Marriage in California - only thing stopping them is the monetary support coming in from the Mormons in Utah. ...and the people? | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
If it insists on having legal marriages then refusing to allow homosexuals to marry goes against everything that this country was founded on and people have fought for so many years to gain. If we preach equality then that is what we need, true equality. Don't give me this civil unions for gays and marriage for straight people. Separate but equal is never equal. And for those people that suggest this will lead to things such as polygamy, who are you to decide that polygamy is wrong? If the people involved love each other then stay the fuck out of their business. Your church has every right to stop anybody they want from getting married, the government does not. I have no problem with people who believe that gay marriage is wrong, that's their right. Everyone has the right to their own values and opinions. But the second they try pushing their beliefs and values on everybody else who is different from them, then I have a big BIG problem with it. The sanctity of marriage is bullshit. I've seen so many devout christian evangelists who are married in the most disgusting relationships you can imagine. Spouses that barely tolerate each other, if even that, domestic abuse... the sanctity of marriage is a sham. What gives people that hate each other the right to marry yet people that love each other can't? That's just not right. If the precious bible is your only moral compass then take a look at the story of Lot. The man got plastered and fucked his daughters and he is a major religious figure. | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
Doesn't the constitution apply to all citizens, or even all people, in all states? So then that's the dispute? Anyway, I don't understand what the role of the state is in this anyway. If churches don't want to recognize these marriages, fine. That's their choise. But how can the state even deny them from marrying? I understand a married couple receive tax benefits, which is already strange in itself, but besides that can't people just have a party with their friends and declare themselves married? That is how it has been all throughout history. Marriage is something between two people. All throughout history in every culture religious institutions and governments never had any role in marriage. Sure, back then it was the two fathers or families. But in the modern world all you need is 2 people. | ||
Masamune
Canada3401 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. Im not hateful at all, and no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. You appeared to have missed my point completely. I am talking about a specific sacred bond, that is between a man and a women that help carry on the human race. I am not saying gays can't have a sacred bond, I am just saying that the bond they have shouldn't be called marraige. The definition of marraige is clearly laid out in my post. You talk about the strawman fallacy at the end of your post yet your whole reply was fallacious. Your accusing of being hateful, putting words in my mouth, and picking out certain parts of my argument. Why don't u try responding the evolutionary reason to why humans have marraige in the first place? Then we can have a good argument. What is the sacred bond you speak of that is supposedly going to carry on the human race? I'm seriously not getting it at all. And I'm even more baffled by this evolutionary reason to marriage. DO you even understand evolution at all? If anything, you could make a case for marriage going against humans' evolutionary drive to propogate their genes and not stay confined to the same partner. This may be reflected in high divorce rates and the amount of cheating you see in many couples' relationships. Of course there are many other reasons to this, but stop spewing your bullshit about marriage and it having an evolutionary function because I highly doubt there is any strong case for this, or at least one which seems already validated like you claim it to be. | ||
Comeh
United States18918 Posts
Let them have the damned marriage and stop denying their rights as American's, thank you very much. If you have to change the title of "marriage" for gay people, let it be...but I would wager it would only be temporary. This will turn out to be a(nother) sad stain on what is American history. Now let's get back to worrying about REAL issues...ie: the recession. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. Im not hateful at all, and no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. You appeared to have missed my point completely. I am talking about a specific sacred bond, that is between a man and a women that help carry on the human race. I am not saying gays can't have a sacred bond, I am just saying that the bond they have shouldn't be called marraige. The definition of marraige is clearly laid out in my post. You talk about the strawman fallacy at the end of your post yet your whole reply was fallacious. Your accusing of being hateful, putting words in my mouth, and picking out certain parts of my argument. Why don't u try responding the evolutionary reason to why humans have marraige in the first place? Then we can have a good argument. There is no evolutionary reason humans have an institution of marriage. Its made up. In fact humans are not even naturally monogamous. There have been numerous studies on the subject and our brains aren't' wired that way. Humans are perfectly capable of reproducing without marriage, something readily apparent in today's society where pregnancy out of wedlock is commonplace. If the goal of marriage is to produce children and carry on the human race then not only is that flawed logic in the first place but the goal of producing children is far better accomplished with multiple partners. As I said, religious institutions have every right to deny marriage to whomever they please, but if a government founded on equality for everyone wants a piece of the action then they damn well better be prepared for true equality. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. And I see your arguments about how heterosexuality is important for the perpetuation of the human race, but that's totally irrelevant unless you can somehow prove that legalizing gay marriage would lead to a drop in birthrates (good luck, I can't even think of a mechanism for that effect). And of course, you're operating under the assumption that more births is good, which in the 21st century is shaky ground at best. Basically, your original post is a bunch of true statements that do not compose an argument against gay marriage. I may as well construct my argument like this: I like bananas. Apples are good too. Should we allow gay marriage? The answer is simple. Yes. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:47 Masamune wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. Im not hateful at all, and no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. You appeared to have missed my point completely. I am talking about a specific sacred bond, that is between a man and a women that help carry on the human race. I am not saying gays can't have a sacred bond, I am just saying that the bond they have shouldn't be called marraige. The definition of marraige is clearly laid out in my post. You talk about the strawman fallacy at the end of your post yet your whole reply was fallacious. Your accusing of being hateful, putting words in my mouth, and picking out certain parts of my argument. Why don't u try responding the evolutionary reason to why humans have marraige in the first place? Then we can have a good argument. What is the sacred bond you speak of that is supposedly going to carry on the human race? I'm seriously not getting it at all. And I'm even more baffled by this evolutionary reason to marriage. DO you even understand evolution at all? If anything, you could make a case for marriage going against humans' evolutionary drive to propogate their genes and not stay confined to the same partner. This may be reflected in high divorce rates and the amount of cheating you see in many couples' relationships. Of course there are many other reasons to this, but stop spewing your bullshit about marriage and it having an evolutionary function because I highly doubt there is any strong case for this, or at least one which seems already validated like you claim it to be. There is an evolutionary reason for almost everything my friend. All my arguments are valid arguments made by philisophers much more intelligent then both you and I. (We spent a few weeks on this subject in my philosophy in ethics class) In no way should anyone consider my reasons as "bullshit". You seem to be very emotionaly attached to this subject... Yes you see cheating and high divorce rates these days, and the numbers are growing. However I guarentee that couples that have children in a marraige have a much higher chance of bearring their offspring together to a higher age vs couples that have children out of wedlock since there is much more to lose. I am straying off subject.Your questioning this "sacred bond" like it means nothing, yet you seem to be such a strong advocate of gay "marraige". Like I said I have nothing against gay unions. It just shouldn't be called marraige. Marraige by definition is a cultural constant in which the translation is universal. Gays getting married goes against this definition and therefore should be called something else. Saying that there is no evoltionary reason for marraige is non sense. If that is true then how can you explain tribes and cultures around the world having some form of marraige? | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:02 scwizard wrote: I know numerous gay/bi/queer types. Sometimes it seems like half the girls I know are bi. I like these people and wish for their happiness, and that is why I oppose proposition 8. So yeah that's my position, and that position makes me wonder, do people like houseurmusic know any gay people? Do they have any gay friends? Do they have any gay people that they admire? | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
#2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. You can see this with gestapo anti-prop 8 supporters in california. Vandalizing churches, pushing down old people, threatening people, etc. They only do it to whites and LDS churches / Catholic churches. Yet, blacks and hispanics overwhelmingly voted for prop 8 who come from very traditional backgrounds. Do they go out and try and threaten them? Anyways, have your civil unions and benefits, but marriage is between a man and a woman period. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:09 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:02 scwizard wrote: I know numerous gay/bi/queer types. Sometimes it seems like half the girls I know are bi. I like these people and wish for their happiness, and that is why I oppose proposition 8. So yeah that's my position, and that position makes me wonder, do people like houseurmusic know any gay people? Do they have any gay friends? Do they have any gay people that they admire? Allen Turing is the first that comes to my head. I'm sure there is more but me stating people I admire whom are gay has nothing to do with anything. I can be gay for all you know. There are many gays that are not for gay marraige. My arguement is straight from symmantics, I have no emotional connection to this subject. Please stop pretending that I do, and take some time to read my posts and try to understand what I am saying. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:12 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. This is relativist bullshit and has no place in this thread. Of course I can objectively define a proper family. You may disagree with my definition, but here it goes: A proper family is a social unit which will provide children with a proper upbringing. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. This is the most hypocritical comment I've seen in a long time. You want to ban people from being married because of your personal views, yet feel they're imposing their ideology on others by wanting something which will have no effect on you in any way? I... don't even know how to respond to something that asinine. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:02 scwizard wrote: I know numerous gay/bi/queer types. Sometimes it seems like half the girls I know are bi. I like these people and wish for their happiness, and that is why I oppose proposition 8. Do you know they can get everything a married couple has in a civil union, however it's not 'called' marriage so their supposed 'rights' are being infringed. Ludicrous crap. No one is denying them anything. They can go frolic and cavort in their house, wherever, no one is stopping them. Answer me this. Is anyone stopping them from being together? | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:12 JWD wrote: First off, LEARN TO SPELL MARRIAGE BEFORE YOU TRY TO ENTER A DEBATE ABOUT IT | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:14 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:12 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. This is relativist bullshit and has no place in this thread. Of course I can objectively define a proper family. You may disagree with my definition, but here it goes: A proper family is a social unit which will provide children with a proper upbringing. That's still not objective. Your view is that a proper family must provide children with a "proper upbringing." That's completely subjective. Your view of a proper upbringing can be completely different than somebody elses. The fact that I can disagree with your definition and we can have a debate on it is the very definition of subjective. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. Show nested quote + #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. They aren't losing out on any benefits, yet, they still employ gestapo tactics, threaten, and call everyone who opposes them bigots. Of course if a group of people have the exact same thing as another group, yet the other group (GLBT) are trying to change the meaning of marriage, you don't think they are imposing on the second group at all? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:17 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. This is the most hypocritical comment I've seen in a long time. You want to ban people from being married because of your personal views, yet feel they're imposing their ideology on others by wanting something which will have no effect on you in any way? I... don't even know how to respond to something that asinine. Do you realize that Civil Unions have the same benefits as Marriage? Civil union is a contract with the state, marriage is a religious ceremony and between a man and a woman. Off topic, but yes it does in fact effect me. I am paying for their benefits with my tax dollars. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:12 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. It is hard to objectively define anything. Objectively means how most people would perceive entity X. Maybe proper was a poor choice of a word, however I guarentee that if you polled a large group of people from around the world they would give you similar answer to what a proper family should be. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:19 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:14 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:12 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. This is relativist bullshit and has no place in this thread. Of course I can objectively define a proper family. You may disagree with my definition, but here it goes: A proper family is a social unit which will provide children with a proper upbringing. That's still not objective. Your view is that a proper family must provide children with a "proper upbringing." That's completely subjective. Your view of a proper upbringing can be completely different than somebody elses. The fact that I can disagree with your definition and we can have a debate on it is the very definition of subjective. Proper family is the nuclear family. Statistics show that this is the best environment for success for children. Period. You disagree, I'll go link you with 50 sources if you want to go there. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:08 houseurmusic wrote: There is an evolutionary reason for almost everything my friend. Spoken like someone who doesnt understand evolution. People like to lump social, behavioral and political patterns into evolution in the hopes that it will lend scientific crediblity to their argument. They are wrong. Evolution deals with the selection of genetic traits overtime in a population. Social, behavioral and political patterns are emergent properties from a host of other factors. On May 30 2009 09:08 houseurmusic wrote: Yes you see cheating and high divorce rates these days, and the numbers are growing. However I guarentee that couples that have children in a marraige have a much higher chance of bearring their offspring together to a higher age vs couples that have children out of wedlock since there is much more to lose. Please site the study you are quoting. You cant simply say "I gaurentee" and then state something as a fact. On May 30 2009 09:08 houseurmusic wrote: Like I said I have nothing against gay unions. It just shouldn't be called marraige. Marraige by definition is a cultural constant in which the translation is universal. Gays getting married goes against this definition and therefore should be called something else. ? Lol lets talk definitions Main Entry: mar·riage Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry Date: 14th century 1 a (1): the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2): the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b: the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c: the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:19 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:14 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:12 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. This is relativist bullshit and has no place in this thread. Of course I can objectively define a proper family. You may disagree with my definition, but here it goes: A proper family is a social unit which will provide children with a proper upbringing. That's still not objective. Your view is that a proper family must provide children with a "proper upbringing." That's completely subjective. Your view of a proper upbringing can be completely different than somebody elses. The fact that I can disagree with your definition and we can have a debate on it is the very definition of subjective. Proper family is the nuclear family. Statistics show that this is the best environment for success for children. Period. You disagree, I'll go link you with 50 sources if you want to go there. Let's not get sidetracked. The debate here is over Proposition 8 (gay marriage), not gay parents. They're different issues. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:18 JWD wrote: Dear houseurmusic, because you apparently missed it from the last page: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:12 JWD wrote: First off, LEARN TO SPELL MARRIAGE BEFORE YOU TRY TO ENTER A DEBATE ABOUT IT lol oops, never have been a good spellar- thank you for pointing that out. | ||
mcgriddle
United States253 Posts
On May 30 2009 08:05 AttackZerg wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 08:02 selboN wrote: EDIT: Psh fuck it. Just let it be known, I'm from Texas and I'm not a "red-neck". Texas is not a crappy state. I was treated very kind there. Also if you live in dallas I envy you, hottest girls I've ever seen! After living in texas all my life, and then going to school in iowa... i have found people are pretty much the same... If you go to the country people are redneck (not that this is always a bad thing... they just tend to be more racist) But religion is the number one thing to blame for why gay marriage can not be legalized. The only people I have met who were very opposed to gay marriage were also VERY religious. So for bible belt states... I would agree with the description of crappy. And if you think dallas girls are hot... just go to europe :D. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: Marriage is sacreligious. lol | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:25 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:19 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:14 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:12 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:09 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 09:06 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 08:34 houseurmusic wrote: On May 30 2009 08:17 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote: Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us. This sacred bond has then been passed on as a meme for thousands of years now. We call this bond marraige. This bond is understood universally since every culture has a form of it. It is also the same word that connects us to our most primitive ancestors. Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. You sir are a hateful fool, like all the others against it. Catch words like Sacred bond, foundation proper family and even survival are nothing more than a pile of bullshit If anything a society with more gays is the only thing that can keep our world from being completely flooded with people, and more orphans with decent family that care for them. As I have posted before in this thread http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/why-childless-straight-co_b_208457.html Here is pretty well writen the basic explanation of why theres no rational explanation of why gay couples should be denied this right. If a straight couple can decide not to have any children at all, only marry for pleasure, benefits, and being with each other, why cant gay couples do the same ? Also, gay couples have as many options as many couples in regards to having children, lesbians can do in vitro, and they can adopt in general. Also saying that gay couples are unfit to raise children as a whole is a hatefull assumption, as there are many straight couples completely unqualified and qualified to the job who completely screw their children life in every possible way daily. If you really believe that marriage is all about the children (which seems to be the only straw man left), then straight couples should not be able to marry until they have children, and that still is not enough grounds to forbid gay marriage because all the "evidence" on gays being unfit to raise children is steriotype based. no where in my post did I say that gays cannot raise children or are unfit to. Oh come on: On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. On May 30 2009 07:56 houseurmusic wrote:Do I care about gays being together? Hell no, but should we call a union between two of them marraige? The answer is simple. No. "Marriage is the foundation to a proper family" "Two gays together shouldn't be called a marriage" Sounds like "gays are unfit to raise children" to me. Then please, objectively define a proper family for me. You can't objectively define a proper family. I can't, he can't, you can't. A "proper family" is only what somebody decides is a proper family. Your definition is no more right than anybody else's. Its a personal belief, and you have no right to decide what constitutes a "proper family" for anybody but yourself. This is relativist bullshit and has no place in this thread. Of course I can objectively define a proper family. You may disagree with my definition, but here it goes: A proper family is a social unit which will provide children with a proper upbringing. That's still not objective. Your view is that a proper family must provide children with a "proper upbringing." That's completely subjective. Your view of a proper upbringing can be completely different than somebody elses. The fact that I can disagree with your definition and we can have a debate on it is the very definition of subjective. Proper family is the nuclear family. Statistics show that this is the best environment for success for children. Period. You disagree, I'll go link you with 50 sources if you want to go there. Let's not get sidetracked. The debate here is over Proposition 8 (gay marriage), not gay parents. They're different issues. Oh, so now you don't want to go there, yet the other responses were ok. Sorry, I had to burst the bubble that people don't think the nuclear family gives the best chance at success. Anyways, lets end it here, unless people really want me to go there and prove them wrong. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefore I see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:25 Archerofaiur wrote: Spoken like someone who doesnt understand evolution. People like to lump social, behavioral and political patterns into evolution in the hopes that it will lend scientific crediblity to their argument. They are wrong. Evolution deals with the selection of genetic traits overtime in a population. Social, behavioral and political patterns are emergent properties from a host of other factors. you are the one who doesn't understand evolution look the word up. there is more than 1 definition. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:22 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:17 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. This is the most hypocritical comment I've seen in a long time. You want to ban people from being married because of your personal views, yet feel they're imposing their ideology on others by wanting something which will have no effect on you in any way? I... don't even know how to respond to something that asinine. Do you realize that Civil Unions have the same benefits as Marriage? Civil union is a contract with the state, marriage is a religious ceremony and between a man and a woman. Off topic, but yes it does in fact effect me. I am paying for their benefits with my tax dollars. So its okay for them to pay for your benefits with their tax dollars but you refuse to pay for theirs? Sorry man that doesn't fly. Until the government stops conducting marriages than no, its not a religious ceremony between a man and a woman. Religious institutions conduct religious ceremonies, not courts. They have the right to stop gays from being married in their churches. If the government is conducting it then it needs to be everybody or nobody. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. LOL I like this arguement. Make the gay people seem oppressive. Its the Pro-marriage (btw the name is ridiculos for a group that wants less marriage) bloc that is being wronged. We should have used this with slavery (stop trying to impose your "free" ideology on me). | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: What do homosexuals really want? To get married, just like you or I want to get married. Edit: or, more broadly, what kOol said. | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefore I see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. to be treated as equals | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:32 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. LOL I like this arguement. Make the gay people seem oppressive. Its the Pro-marriage (btw the name is ridiculos for a group that wants less marriage) bloc that is being wronged. We should have used this with slavery (stop trying to impose your "free" ideology on me). Do you realize that Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED? Do you even know this? | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:30 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:25 Archerofaiur wrote: Spoken like someone who doesnt understand evolution. People like to lump social, behavioral and political patterns into evolution in the hopes that it will lend scientific crediblity to their argument. They are wrong. Evolution deals with the selection of genetic traits overtime in a population. Social, behavioral and political patterns are emergent properties from a host of other factors. you are the one who doesn't understand evolution look the word up. there is more than 1 definition. You specifically invoked the biological definition. On May 30 2009 09:08 houseurmusic wrote: being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:33 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:32 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. LOL I like this arguement. Make the gay people seem oppressive. Its the Pro-marriage (btw the name is ridiculos for a group that wants less marriage) bloc that is being wronged. We should have used this with slavery (stop trying to impose your "free" ideology on me). Do you realize that Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED? Do you even know this? Aegraen please reply, from where do you derive the definition of marriage ? | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:25 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:08 houseurmusic wrote: There is an evolutionary reason for almost everything my friend. Spoken like someone who doesnt understand evolution. People like to lump social, behavioral and political patterns into evolution in the hopes that it will lend scientific crediblity to their argument. They are wrong. Evolution deals with the selection of genetic traits overtime in a population. Social, behavioral and political patterns are emergent properties from a host of other factors. On the contrary, only someone who has not and idea on what evolution is would say something like this. Memes When it comes to primitive human survival, cultural inheritence is mandatory. (Dawkins, "The God Delusion", Chapter 5) Dawkins is a world renowned evolutionary biologist. You are completely wrong for not "lumping" social behavioral reasons into the evolution of humans. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:33 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:30 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:25 Archerofaiur wrote: Spoken like someone who doesnt understand evolution. People like to lump social, behavioral and political patterns into evolution in the hopes that it will lend scientific crediblity to their argument. They are wrong. Evolution deals with the selection of genetic traits overtime in a population. Social, behavioral and political patterns are emergent properties from a host of other factors. you are the one who doesn't understand evolution look the word up. there is more than 1 definition. You specifically invoked the biological definition. well, it wasn't me that you were talking to before but anyways I don't see where that happened | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? | ||
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
Do you want THIS to be your child after a day at school? "Mom, Dad, I learned today that a prince can marry a prince and that I can marry a princess!" Children have enough to worry about. They don't need to worry about gay marriage also! Do you want the rights of those who consider marriage between a man and a woman to be violated? If you do nothing, then your voice will no longer be heard! Politicians can't even fix our economy, and yet they have time to make changes to marriage? It went on and on. It was so laughable for so many reasons. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? How does it matter what past religion allowed gay marriage? How did you not understand my point. This entire country is built upon freedom of religion. So I ask again, where does your definition of marriage come from ? | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:33 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:32 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. LOL I like this arguement. Make the gay people seem oppressive. Its the Pro-marriage (btw the name is ridiculos for a group that wants less marriage) bloc that is being wronged. We should have used this with slavery (stop trying to impose your "free" ideology on me). Do you realize that Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED? Do you even know this? In many states, same-sex partners are even prohibited from civil unions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg Pro tip: don't ask "Do you even know this?" incredulously, when "this" isn't true in many cases. | ||
KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:34 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:33 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:32 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. LOL I like this arguement. Make the gay people seem oppressive. Its the Pro-marriage (btw the name is ridiculos for a group that wants less marriage) bloc that is being wronged. We should have used this with slavery (stop trying to impose your "free" ideology on me). Do you realize that Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED? Do you even know this? Aegraen please reply, from where do you derive the definition of marriage ? Way to sidetrack the issue. Anyways, previous to 2003 (That's when Merriam changed the definition), there was no such thing as 'same-sex' marriage. It's pretty absurd in the first place to put 'same-sex' infront of marriage, if marriage defines this all ready. From this point on I never want to see people put, 'same-sex', 'gay', etc. infront of marriage if you believe that marriage all ready means this. It just goes to show the hypocrisy. Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:37 Archerofaiur wrote: How warped has religion become that it now precludes love? I see where you're coming from, but please don't give the opposition fodder by introducing religion. I can just see the anti-gay-marriage posters in this thread reading your post and then salivating uncontrollably as they write a response like: "show me where i said religion precludes love. marraige does not equal love, gays can have civil unions and be in love". | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:37 Archerofaiur wrote: How warped has religion become that it now precludes love? The religious institution of marriage has never had anything to do with love. For thousands of years people have married their daughters off in exchange for debts, property, and social standing. Love, unfortunately, has little to do with it as long as they have different sets of genitalia. | ||
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:34 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:33 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:32 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. LOL I like this arguement. Make the gay people seem oppressive. Its the Pro-marriage (btw the name is ridiculos for a group that wants less marriage) bloc that is being wronged. We should have used this with slavery (stop trying to impose your "free" ideology on me). Do you realize that Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED? Do you even know this? Aegraen please reply, from where do you derive the definition of marriage ? Way to sidetrack the issue. Anyways, previous to 2003 (That's when Merriam changed the definition), there was no such thing as 'same-sex' marriage. It's pretty absurd in the first place to put 'same-sex' infront of marriage, if marriage defines this all ready. From this point on I never want to see people put, 'same-sex', 'gay', etc. infront of marriage if you believe that marriage all ready means this. It just goes to show the hypocrisy. Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. so?? if its been between a man and a woman in the past, why should it still be like that now? Can't things change? if the only basis for not allowing it is...."well...they always dun' it that way!!" then thats ridiculous | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
*gets divorced 3 times* | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
Marriage is matrimony. It is a display of love and/or devotion between 2 individuals. If 2 men(or 2 women) love each other why should they not be allowed to do this, if not for reasons of religious agenda ? How does what has happened in the past matter at all? In the past no one flew to the moon. In the past, all groups have kept slaves. In the past, murder was commonplace. In the past - eh, do I really need to continue on with this list? | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. That does not mean they are right about Proposition 8. Stop trying to disguise the fact that there is no rational basis for your beliefs by dropping random facts about a small minority of the opposition. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:42 JWD wrote: lol, I wonder how many times Aegrean is going to compare gay marriage supporters to the Gestapo in this thread. I could change it around, you never know, but the tactics are pulled straight from their playbook. I followed each side seeing how it unfolded in the most liberal state in the country. Frankly, let california do what it wants to do, but don't hold me responsible for their decisions like the stimulus crapola. They'll be bankrupt soon enough anyways. | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:43 travis wrote: How does what has happened in the past matter at all? It's shows that the people that claim: "Marriage is fundamentally something between two people, and god/church/state." are wrong. I am sure no one tries to claim that because it was like that throughout history that means it should be that way now because it is better for exactly that reason. Ok, Aegraen is an idiot even when he is on the same side of the argument. Makes sense.. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. What 'rights' do they not have? | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. http://vimeo.com/2053489 lol | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:45 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. That does not mean they are right about Proposition 8. Stop trying to disguise the fact that there is no rational basis for your beliefs by dropping random facts about a small minority of the opposition. One, its not a small minority. It's the vast majority. Secondly, so because you believe their 'plight' is so moral and they are losing out on all these 'rights' (Again, those in marriage, and civil unions have the same benefits. I'll make this easy. You believe benefits = rights), they're above being civil? Have mercy on all of us if this behavior is condoned. | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. really? here....read a report from APA + Show Spoiler + In January 2009, the American Psychological Association (APA) released three separate studies that described the psychological distress associated with anti same-sex marriage amendments. One study using national survey responses of LGBTI individuals found that those who live in states that have passed marriage amendments experienced increased psychological stress not due to other pre-existing conditions but as “a direct result of the negative images and messages associated with the ballot campaign and the passage of the amendment.” Furthermore, participants reported feeling “alienated from their community, fearful they would lose their children, and concerned they would become victims of anti-gay violence.” These studies also reported that this harm extends to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex (LGBTI) family members and straight allies who experience a form of “secondary minority stress.” Finally, “although many participants displayed resiliency and effective coping with this stress, some experienced strong negative consequences to their mental and physical health.” Marriage Equality USA, through a series of town halls held across California and a national on-line survey of over 3,100 respondents, collected community input regarding the homophobia and other harm experienced through initiative campaigns, like Proposition 8, and received personal stories that mirror these APA findings. In our report “Prop 8 Hurt My Family – Ask Me How,” we collected almost 1,200 individual experiences which illustrate how: LGBTI people experience increased verbal abuse, homophobia, physical harm and other discrimination associated with or resulting from the Prop 8 campaign; Children of same-sex couples express fear due to direct exposure to homophobia and hate and concerns that the passage of Prop 8 means they could be taken from their families and targeted for further violence; LGBTI youth and their supporters experience increased bullying at schools as Prop 8’s passage fosters a supportive environment for homophobic acts of physical and emotional violence; Straight allies experience the impact of homophobia firsthand and express shock and fear for their LGBTI family members and friends and the danger they may experience if they were perceived as gay or an ally; Families are torn apart as relatives divide on Prop 8; and Communities are destroyed from the aftermath of abusive behavior towards them during local street demonstrations, neighborhood divisions, and the impact of “knowing your neighbor” voted against your family. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. What 'rights' do they not have? And you've been shown several times as being wrong. Many, in fact most, states do not give civil unions, and of those that do several do not give equal benefits to married couples. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. What 'rights' do they not have? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal What a novel idea! | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:48 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. http://vimeo.com/2053489 lol I stand corrected, do you have any more incidents? No one should condone any of this behavior. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:50 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. What 'rights' do they not have? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal What a novel idea! The only thing that is seperate is the name. Just goes to show how fervant those who want marriage to be defined as between the same sex goes. Equating this to either womans suffrage, or the civil rights movement, is absurd in the extreme of your position. No one is stopping anyone from being together. They have the exact same benefits as those who are married. Just because their union is called 'Civil' and not 'marriage' and is not tied to the church means they are somehow losing some ephemeral 'rights'? Please... | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? churches would NOT be forced to perform same sex marriages...that is purely propaganda | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:51 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:48 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. http://vimeo.com/2053489 lol I stand corrected, do you have any more incidents? No one should condone any of this behavior. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/29/state/n064853D35.DTL http://vodpod.com/watch/1218422-skinhead-ordered-to-stand-trial-for-anti-gay-yes-on-8-hate-crime-span-classsourcetowleroadspan http://www.independent.com/news/2008/dec/18/anti-gay-graffiti-scrawled-clearview-home/ http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/syracuse_police_identify_shoot.html Come to think of it, because all anti-gay hate crime perpetrators would probably vote Yes on 8, I think your position that Proposition 8's opponents are more "like the Gestapo" looks even sillier. And wait, you're saying that a majority of Prop 8 opponents used violent tactics? Um...please don't generalize anecdotal evidence. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:54 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:50 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. What 'rights' do they not have? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal What a novel idea! The only thing that is seperate is the name. The only thing seperating a white fountain from a colored fountain is the name. You know It would be nice if people would just learn from history once so we dont have to keep repeating it. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:56 koOl wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? churches would NOT be forced to perform same sex marriages...that is purely propaganda What do you think marriage is? Do you know who marries couples? I'm sorry, but going to the local judicial services and getting your 'paper' is not marriage. Sure, you get your state derived benefits, that is associated with marriage and civil unions, but then you just want that called marriage, and not a civil union? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:57 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. The government grants the same benefits to gay couples as it does to straight couples. Try again. | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:58 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:56 koOl wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? churches would NOT be forced to perform same sex marriages...that is purely propaganda What do you think marriage is? Do you know who marries couples? I'm sorry, but going to the local judicial services and getting your 'paper' is not marriage. Sure, you get your state derived benefits, that is associated with marriage and civil unions, but then you just want that called marriage, and not a civil union? your point being?? that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that churches wouldnt be forced to perform same sex marriages, ones that choose to do it could | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
a) claims "Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED?" when in fact many states do not even recognize same-sex civil unions b) believes legalizing gay marriage will involve "forcing churches to do something that is a sin in their religion" | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:59 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:57 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. The government grants the same benefits to gay couples as it does to straight couples. Try again. ...except the benefit of being able to marry. And please, stop ignoring the fact that many states do not even recognize same-sex civil unions. I already posted a link to a wikipedia map that will illustrate this for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
But that certainly is not the issue at hand. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:00 JWD wrote: I think Aegraen, while he has good intentions, has illustrated pretty effectively that he has very little grasp of the issue at hand: a) claims "Gay couples HAVE THE SAME BENEFITS DERIVED FROM THE STATE AS THOSE MARRIED?" when in fact many states do not even recognize same-sex civil unions b) believes legalizing gay marriage will involve "forcing churches to do something that is a sin in their religion" Yah I was just going to pull an article that NYTimes had recently about how civil unions cant get health care for partners. and then of course theres the fact that even IF civil unions had exactly the same federal benifits it would still be "seperate but equal" rationalizing and it would be just as wrong as when it was applied to blacks. | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:59 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:57 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. The government grants the same benefits to gay couples as it does to straight couples. Try again. No, actually it doesn't. You keep stating this but its completely false. Only 8 states grant civil unions or domestic partnerships which similar rights to marriage, and 5 more grant some of the same rights. Since this thread is specifically on prop 8 in california, domestic partnership differs in the following ways: # Couples seeking domestic partnership must already share a residence, married couples may be married without living together. # Couples seeking domestic partnership must be 18 or older, minors can be married before the age of 18 with the consent of their parents. # California permits married couples the option of confidential marriage, there is no equivalent institution for domestic partnerships. In confidential marriages, no witnesses are required and the marriage license is not a matter of public record. # Married partners of state employees are eligible for the CalPERS long-term care insurance plan, domestic partners are not. # There is, at least according to one appellate ruling, no equivalent of the Putative Spouse Doctrine for domestic partnerships. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:57 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:51 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:48 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. http://vimeo.com/2053489 lol I stand corrected, do you have any more incidents? No one should condone any of this behavior. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/29/state/n064853D35.DTL http://vodpod.com/watch/1218422-skinhead-ordered-to-stand-trial-for-anti-gay-yes-on-8-hate-crime-span-classsourcetowleroadspan http://www.independent.com/news/2008/dec/18/anti-gay-graffiti-scrawled-clearview-home/ http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/syracuse_police_identify_shoot.html Come to think of it, because all anti-gay hate crime perpetrators would probably vote Yes on 8, I think your position that Proposition 8's opponents are more "like the Gestapo" looks even sillier. And wait, you're saying that a majority of Prop 8 opponents used violent tactics? Um...please don't generalize anecdotal evidence. That's the best you have? The first two are the same story, the fourth has no merit because the police have no idea why it happened, so because the mother said it was because he was gay then it was? So, you gave me two. Of course that behavior is horrendous, and one is a skin-head. I think i'll link you some in a bit. Runs the gamut from pro gay marching into churches and disrupting services to harassing and threatening businesses and persons. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:05 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:57 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:51 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:48 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. http://vimeo.com/2053489 lol I stand corrected, do you have any more incidents? No one should condone any of this behavior. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/29/state/n064853D35.DTL http://vodpod.com/watch/1218422-skinhead-ordered-to-stand-trial-for-anti-gay-yes-on-8-hate-crime-span-classsourcetowleroadspan http://www.independent.com/news/2008/dec/18/anti-gay-graffiti-scrawled-clearview-home/ http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/syracuse_police_identify_shoot.html Come to think of it, because all anti-gay hate crime perpetrators would probably vote Yes on 8, I think your position that Proposition 8's opponents are more "like the Gestapo" looks even sillier. And wait, you're saying that a majority of Prop 8 opponents used violent tactics? Um...please don't generalize anecdotal evidence. That's the best you have? The first two are the same story, the fourth has no merit because the police have no idea why it happened, so because the mother said it was because he was gay then it was? So, you gave me two. Of course that behavior is horrendous, and one is a skin-head. I think i'll link you some in a bit. Runs the gamut from pro gay marching into churches and disrupting services to harassing and threatening businesses and persons. let me post thisf or u again cuz it seems you have missed it: + Show Spoiler + In January 2009, the American Psychological Association (APA) released three separate studies that described the psychological distress associated with anti same-sex marriage amendments. One study using national survey responses of LGBTI individuals found that those who live in states that have passed marriage amendments experienced increased psychological stress not due to other pre-existing conditions but as “a direct result of the negative images and messages associated with the ballot campaign and the passage of the amendment.” Furthermore, participants reported feeling “alienated from their community, fearful they would lose their children, and concerned they would become victims of anti-gay violence.” These studies also reported that this harm extends to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex (LGBTI) family members and straight allies who experience a form of “secondary minority stress.” Finally, “although many participants displayed resiliency and effective coping with this stress, some experienced strong negative consequences to their mental and physical health.” Marriage Equality USA, through a series of town halls held across California and a national on-line survey of over 3,100 respondents, collected community input regarding the homophobia and other harm experienced through initiative campaigns, like Proposition 8, and received personal stories that mirror these APA findings. In our report “Prop 8 Hurt My Family – Ask Me How,” we collected almost 1,200 individual experiences which illustrate how: LGBTI people experience increased verbal abuse, homophobia, physical harm and other discrimination associated with or resulting from the Prop 8 campaign; Children of same-sex couples express fear due to direct exposure to homophobia and hate and concerns that the passage of Prop 8 means they could be taken from their families and targeted for further violence; LGBTI youth and their supporters experience increased bullying at schools as Prop 8’s passage fosters a supportive environment for homophobic acts of physical and emotional violence; Straight allies experience the impact of homophobia firsthand and express shock and fear for their LGBTI family members and friends and the danger they may experience if they were perceived as gay or an ally; Families are torn apart as relatives divide on Prop 8; and Communities are destroyed from the aftermath of abusive behavior towards them during local street demonstrations, neighborhood divisions, and the impact of “knowing your neighbor” voted against your family. | ||
s_side
United States700 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:00 koOl wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:58 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:56 koOl wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? churches would NOT be forced to perform same sex marriages...that is purely propaganda What do you think marriage is? Do you know who marries couples? I'm sorry, but going to the local judicial services and getting your 'paper' is not marriage. Sure, you get your state derived benefits, that is associated with marriage and civil unions, but then you just want that called marriage, and not a civil union? your point being?? that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that churches wouldnt be forced to perform same sex marriages, ones that choose to do it could My point being is the arguement for gay marriage isn't one of 'rights' or 'benefits' anymore, because those who are gay have the same 'rights' and 'benefits' as straight couples. Now, they want to impose their views of marriage onto religion and the churches. It's quite obvious. Stop obfuscating the real issue at hand. 80% of this country are christians. You want to force these 80% to essentially change the definition of marriage for what purpose? Of course the purpose is to make this behavior 'socially' recognized as normal and acceptable even though it goes against nature. I have no problem with gays having the same state derived benefits. I do have problems when you force others to adapt your views through governmental action, when there is no rights being infringed upon. I'd recommend looking up the Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, and the US Constitution, and show me where, marriage is a right. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. - About the equal rights which you seem to think are already in place: Why are people protesting? Please explain how this is possible when according to you there is no issue apparently. My take on this is that not allowing gays to marry is a discrimination based on sexuality. You can come up with a compromis that gives the same benefits, but it's like having to wear the star of david (you started these lame ww2 analogies), you're still reminded painfully every day for being different. If it's the same why call it different? It's painfully obvious that the reason for this is to maintain some kind of gap to support your feelings of superiority. Either allow gays to marry or don't, but don't make up some bullshit compromis and pretend it isn't discrimination, I'm pretty sure that's not simply for the majority to decide. Since you seem to love branding people: If this debate was years ago I'm you'd be arguing for racial segregation. As usual I'd like to suggest to you that maybe there is such a thing called human progress. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:05 travis wrote: There is no way to debate with someone who chooses what to respond to. Who isnt addressing your point? If you want put (respond please) at the end of points you want addressed. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:09 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:05 travis wrote: There is no way to debate with someone who chooses what to respond to. Who isnt addressing your point? If you want put (respond please) at the end of points you want addressed. I think he has to be referring to Aegraen, the guy is completely ignoring all the posts where we tell him he has his facts totally wrong. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:09 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:00 koOl wrote: On May 30 2009 09:58 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:56 koOl wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? churches would NOT be forced to perform same sex marriages...that is purely propaganda What do you think marriage is? Do you know who marries couples? I'm sorry, but going to the local judicial services and getting your 'paper' is not marriage. Sure, you get your state derived benefits, that is associated with marriage and civil unions, but then you just want that called marriage, and not a civil union? your point being?? that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that churches wouldnt be forced to perform same sex marriages, ones that choose to do it could My point being is the arguement for gay marriage isn't one of 'rights' or 'benefits' anymore, because those who are gay have the same 'rights' and 'benefits' as straight couples. You really need to stop with that argument because it is entirely false and has been shown to be such multiple times. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:05 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:57 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:51 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:48 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:41 micronesia wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. I think any major issue has tons of this shit and you are just cherry picking anyway. Wrong. Prop 8 supporters never did any of this. http://vimeo.com/2053489 lol I stand corrected, do you have any more incidents? No one should condone any of this behavior. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/29/state/n064853D35.DTL http://vodpod.com/watch/1218422-skinhead-ordered-to-stand-trial-for-anti-gay-yes-on-8-hate-crime-span-classsourcetowleroadspan http://www.independent.com/news/2008/dec/18/anti-gay-graffiti-scrawled-clearview-home/ http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/syracuse_police_identify_shoot.html Come to think of it, because all anti-gay hate crime perpetrators would probably vote Yes on 8, I think your position that Proposition 8's opponents are more "like the Gestapo" looks even sillier. And wait, you're saying that a majority of Prop 8 opponents used violent tactics? Um...please don't generalize anecdotal evidence. That's the best you have? The first two are the same story, the fourth has no merit because the police have no idea why it happened, so because the mother said it was because he was gay then it was? So, you gave me two. Of course that behavior is horrendous, and one is a skin-head. I spent two minutes on this (literally googling "proposition 8 supporter violence") because I don't think it's really relevant to the core issue here (gay marriage). I merely wanted to address your request for more incidents. Let's get off this nonsense about which camp is more violent - you can stop threatening to pull out your links to examples of anti-Prop 8 violence like it's some sort of game-ending ultimate weapon in this debate. Instead, I'd like to see you address some of the more obvious faults in your reasoning which have been pointed out on earlier pages. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. hmmm...a libertarian who thinks it's the government's business to prevent certain citizens from getting married? Really? | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:17 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. hmmm...a libertarian who thinks it's the government's business to prevent certain citizens from getting married? Really? Lol great point. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:16 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. This is great, but it has nothing to do with whether gay marriage should be legalized. Get off it. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:04 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. The government grants the same benefits to gay couples as it does to straight couples. Try again. No, actually it doesn't. You keep stating this but its completely false. Only 8 states grant civil unions or domestic partnerships which similar rights to marriage, and 5 more grant some of the same rights. Since this thread is specifically on prop 8 in california, domestic partnership differs in the following ways: # Couples seeking domestic partnership must already share a residence, married couples may be married without living together. # Couples seeking domestic partnership must be 18 or older, minors can be married before the age of 18 with the consent of their parents. # California permits married couples the option of confidential marriage, there is no equivalent institution for domestic partnerships. In confidential marriages, no witnesses are required and the marriage license is not a matter of public record. # Married partners of state employees are eligible for the CalPERS long-term care insurance plan, domestic partners are not. # There is, at least according to one appellate ruling, no equivalent of the Putative Spouse Doctrine for domestic partnerships. The only benefit there, that isn't the same is CalPERS. Fight for that, not to change the definition of marriage. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:17 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. hmmm...a libertarian who thinks it's the government's business to prevent certain citizens from getting married? Really? Yes, I am opposed to them getting married. I am not opposed to civil unions and the granting of same benefits. How again, is that against libertarianism? Personally, I'm perfectly ok, with the abolishment of state derived benefits for all parties whether its marriage or civil unions. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:04 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. The government grants the same benefits to gay couples as it does to straight couples. Try again. No, actually it doesn't. You keep stating this but its completely false. Only 8 states grant civil unions or domestic partnerships which similar rights to marriage, and 5 more grant some of the same rights. Since this thread is specifically on prop 8 in california, domestic partnership differs in the following ways: # Couples seeking domestic partnership must already share a residence, married couples may be married without living together. # Couples seeking domestic partnership must be 18 or older, minors can be married before the age of 18 with the consent of their parents. # California permits married couples the option of confidential marriage, there is no equivalent institution for domestic partnerships. In confidential marriages, no witnesses are required and the marriage license is not a matter of public record. # Married partners of state employees are eligible for the CalPERS long-term care insurance plan, domestic partners are not. # There is, at least according to one appellate ruling, no equivalent of the Putative Spouse Doctrine for domestic partnerships. The only benefit there, that isn't the same is CalPERS. Fight for that, not to change the definition of marriage. How do you expect people to take you seriously when you just quoted a post with 5 benefits same sex couples do not share and tried to say that the only different one is CalPERS. That's even only the government benefit differences and does not include differences in treatment instituted by individual organizations such as preventing or denying access to things like insurance or visitation rights. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:19 JWD wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:16 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. This is great, but it has nothing to do with whether gay marriage should be legalized. Get off it. Why are you saying gay marriage if you believe marriage can be between gay couples? It's like me saying straight marriage. Its absurd. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:22 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:04 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 09:55 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:50 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:43 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Marriage as always been only between a man and a woman throughout all of history. If I can provide you an example will you admit your definition is wrong? On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Remember when those black people were being oppressive and doing all those things. Good thing we didnt cave and give them equal rights. Otherwise everyone would want them. I addressed this, gay couples have the same benefits as married couples. ...except being able to marry. So you want to force the churches to do something that is a sin in their religion? What happened to freedom of religion? Nobody wants the churches to do anything. The issue is that the government is the one refusing to grant marriages, and the government shouldn't get to exclude people. The government grants the same benefits to gay couples as it does to straight couples. Try again. No, actually it doesn't. You keep stating this but its completely false. Only 8 states grant civil unions or domestic partnerships which similar rights to marriage, and 5 more grant some of the same rights. Since this thread is specifically on prop 8 in california, domestic partnership differs in the following ways: # Couples seeking domestic partnership must already share a residence, married couples may be married without living together. # Couples seeking domestic partnership must be 18 or older, minors can be married before the age of 18 with the consent of their parents. # California permits married couples the option of confidential marriage, there is no equivalent institution for domestic partnerships. In confidential marriages, no witnesses are required and the marriage license is not a matter of public record. # Married partners of state employees are eligible for the CalPERS long-term care insurance plan, domestic partners are not. # There is, at least according to one appellate ruling, no equivalent of the Putative Spouse Doctrine for domestic partnerships. The only benefit there, that isn't the same is CalPERS. Fight for that, not to change the definition of marriage. How do you expect people to take you seriously when you just quoted a post with 5 benefits same sex couples do not share and tried to say that the only different one is CalPERS. That's even only the government benefit differences and does not include differences in treatment instituted by individual organizations such as preventing or denying access to things like insurance or visitation rights. Because a benefit specifies economic derivation. PS: Power of Attorney covers the latter part of your arguement, which you can get outside of a civil union and marriage. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. The principles of Libertarianism are to maximize individual liberty, minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions, or for some libertarians (me), the abolition of the state. So yes, your attitude that the state should be able to have control over who can and cannot get married is in direct conflict with libertarian ideals. | ||
DM20
Canada544 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism You should be against prop 8 and let the churches decide whether or not they can ban marriage in their church. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:19 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 10:16 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. This is great, but it has nothing to do with whether gay marriage should be legalized. Get off it. Why are you saying gay marriage if you believe marriage can be between gay couples? It's like me saying straight marriage. Its absurd. Im sorry is that really the best arguement you could come up with after everyone just disproved everything you said? | ||
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:19 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 10:16 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. This is great, but it has nothing to do with whether gay marriage should be legalized. Get off it. Why are you saying gay marriage if you believe marriage can be between gay couples? It's like me saying straight marriage. Its absurd. If you want to make the point that we either should change the way we speak about it or admit that we already have made up our minds and should take your stance, then sure you can make it. But don't randomly harass someone for using the term which has already been coined/accepted. It's irrelevant to the current state of your discussion. I'm honestly disgusted by what I've read from you in this thread. I very rarely am this agitated, but I also tend to stay away from controversial issue threads so I might just not be desensitized enough. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:16 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 opposers who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. How do 20+ incidents represent millions of people? How does this discredit anything I said? I am against prop 8, I am not assaulting anyone. Also updated my post with my thoughts on the main subject to not get too offtopic here. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:25 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. The principles of Libertarianism are to maximize individual liberty, minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions, or for some libertarians (me), the abolition of the state. So yes, your attitude that the state should be able to have control over who can and cannot get married is in direct conflict with libertarian ideals. Marriage is not a right; I believe in Federalism. Therefore I am not against any tenants of libertarianism. Personally, if I had the choice I would abolish all state derived benefits associated with marriage and civil unions. The abolition of the state, is called anarchy. You're an anarchist, not a libertarian. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:27 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:25 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. The principles of Libertarianism are to maximize individual liberty, minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions, or for some libertarians (me), the abolition of the state. So yes, your attitude that the state should be able to have control over who can and cannot get married is in direct conflict with libertarian ideals. Marriage is not a right; I believe in Federalism. Therefore I am not against any tenants of libertarianism. Personally, if I had the choice I would abolish all state derived benefits associated with marriage and civil unions. The abolition of the state, is called anarchy. You're an anarchist, not a libertarian. You're right, I am. Guess what, anarchy is nothing more than an extreme form of libertarianism. | ||
seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. | ||
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KwarK
United States42185 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:19 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 10:16 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:09 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 09:57 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:54 Diomedes wrote: Wait, Aegraen is calling those who want to lift bans on gay marriage oppressive like the gestapo? WTF? I thought he meant the other way around? WTF Ban me if he isn't a troll. Nope, not at all. I'm calling those who employ coercive, violent, and strongarm tactics as comparable to exactly what the Gestapo did. The majority of anti prop 8, supported these, and employed these tactics once they lost, and even beforehand. What a retarded analogy, the contexts are so different it's not even funny. People against prop 8 who act in outrage do so because they want equal rights, not because they think they are the master race. You're one to talk by the way, this is probably the most manipulative argument I have ever seen: On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. This is all documented immensely, and if you want me to link for you, I'll gladly do that. Ad hominem, stereotyping, hasty generalization, scare tactics, in the current context I'd call your methods as detestable as the prop 8 supporters who resort to violent acts. Not to mention you openly support torture, you comparing someone with the gestapo is incredibly ironic. http://michellemalkin.com/?s=proposition 8 mob There are at least 20+ incidents, across a variety of spectrum. Read at your behest. This is great, but it has nothing to do with whether gay marriage should be legalized. Get off it. Why are you saying gay marriage if you believe marriage can be between gay couples? It's like me saying straight marriage. Its absurd. Because marriage is already legal in some contexts, he wishes it to be widened to the context of gays. Just saying "whether marriage should be legalized" would create confusion because of this. His meaning was clear, his wording correct, your point, ridiculous. Perhaps the stupidest thing you've said yet which given your history is actually really impressive. | ||
DM20
Canada544 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:30 seppolevne wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. This is like telling a black he can ride the bus but he has to sit at the back. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:25 DM20 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism You should be against prop 8 and let the churches decide whether or not they can ban marriage in their church. I am not lock and step with every tenant of libertarianism. For example, I am not an anarchist. Secondly, I also share the views of conservatism, that being strong military, federalism, and abiding by the US Constitution (means absolving 99% of Federal Government institutions, this can be parlayed to libertarianism also), non-interventionism, etc. I am for prop 8 because using the government to force religions to accept the definition that is proposed, and to socially force others to share your views is not a governmental function. There is no rights being infringed upon, its purely use of government to try and change social acceptance, period. If you're for this, then how is that being a libertarian? | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:27 Aegraen wrote: Therefore I am not against any tenants of libertarianism. On May 30 2009 10:32 Aegraen wrote: I am not lock and step with every tenant of libertarianism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenants http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenets | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:29 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:27 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:25 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. The principles of Libertarianism are to maximize individual liberty, minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions, or for some libertarians (me), the abolition of the state. So yes, your attitude that the state should be able to have control over who can and cannot get married is in direct conflict with libertarian ideals. Marriage is not a right; I believe in Federalism. Therefore I am not against any tenants of libertarianism. Personally, if I had the choice I would abolish all state derived benefits associated with marriage and civil unions. The abolition of the state, is called anarchy. You're an anarchist, not a libertarian. You're right, I am. Guess what, anarchy is nothing more than an extreme form of libertarianism. You're belief that without a state that you have maximum freedom and personal liberty is in reality, the opposite. Without some structure, you have no liberty or freedom, because anyone can come and take from you and kill you. There is no laws, to prevent this. Anyways off topic. | ||
DM20
Canada544 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:32 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:25 DM20 wrote: On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism You should be against prop 8 and let the churches decide whether or not they can ban marriage in their church. I am not lock and step with every tenant of libertarianism. For example, I am not an anarchist. Secondly, I also share the views of conservatism, that being strong military, federalism, and abiding by the US Constitution (means absolving 99% of Federal Government institutions, this can be parlayed to libertarianism also), non-interventionism, etc. I am for prop 8 because using the government to force religions to accept the definition that is proposed, and to socially force others to share your views is not a governmental function. There is no rights being infringed upon, its purely use of government to try and change social acceptance, period. If you're for this, then how is that being a libertarian? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008) + Show Spoiler + The proponents argued that exclusively heterosexual marriage was "an essential institution of society," that leaving the constitution unchanged would "result in public schools teaching our kids that gay marriage is okay," and that gays would "redefine marriage for everyone else." Prop 8 was to undo the legalization of gay marriage, so you have it backwards, its the church forcing their views onto everyone else. | ||
seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:32 DM20 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:30 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. This is like telling a black he can ride the bus but he has to sit at the back. Buses are a public service. The church is not. The state should have no (real) say as to what a church does, and the church should have no say in what the state does. | ||
DeathSpank
United States1029 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:38 seppolevne wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:32 DM20 wrote: On May 30 2009 10:30 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. This is like telling a black he can ride the bus but he has to sit at the back. Buses are a public service. The church is not. The state should have no (real) say as to what a church does, and the church should have no say in what the state does. somehow I doubt a church is going to marry gay people....I also doubt that the majority of gay couples will want to get married in a church. | ||
DM20
Canada544 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:38 seppolevne wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:32 DM20 wrote: On May 30 2009 10:30 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. This is like telling a black he can ride the bus but he has to sit at the back. Buses are a public service. The church is not. The state should have no (real) say as to what a church does, and the church should have no say in what the state does. Yes so the way it was, gays could get married if they found a church to marry them, the choice to marry even with heterosexual couples is up to the church, if you can't find a church you do it at a courthouse. Prop 8 made it illegal for gays to marry even at court houses. Telling a gay person they can get married but not calling it marriage is even more insulting than saying they can't | ||
koOl
Canada254 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:39 DeathSpank wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:38 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 10:32 DM20 wrote: On May 30 2009 10:30 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. This is like telling a black he can ride the bus but he has to sit at the back. Buses are a public service. The church is not. The state should have no (real) say as to what a church does, and the church should have no say in what the state does. somehow I doubt a church is going to marry gay people....I also doubt that the majority of gay couples will want to get married in a church. there are MANY churches that would...maybe not traditional ones but yes, there are MANY that do | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:14 houseurmusic wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:09 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 08:02 scwizard wrote: I know numerous gay/bi/queer types. Sometimes it seems like half the girls I know are bi. I like these people and wish for their happiness, and that is why I oppose proposition 8. So yeah that's my position, and that position makes me wonder, do people like houseurmusic know any gay people? Do they have any gay friends? Do they have any gay people that they admire? I can be gay for all you know. There are many gays that are not for gay marraige. Are you fucking kidding me. I challenge teamliquid to find either of the following: 1. A person who is gay/bi and opposed to gay marriage. 2. A person who has a very close gay/bi friend and is opposed to gay marriage. I won't believe such people exist unless there's evidence to the contrary. | ||
seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:40 DM20 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:38 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 10:32 DM20 wrote: On May 30 2009 10:30 seppolevne wrote: On May 30 2009 09:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote: I don't care about gay marriage in terms of "marriage," the church can keep that. The part I have a problem with is how gays aren't allowed the same domestic partnership and financial/social benefits as male/female couples. I think the church can refuse to "marry" two gay people, but they shouldn't be allowed to even have influence on whether or not these people share the benefits. Basically, I think they should be allowed to "marry" without the title of "marriage." My thoughts as well. This is like telling a black he can ride the bus but he has to sit at the back. Buses are a public service. The church is not. The state should have no (real) say as to what a church does, and the church should have no say in what the state does. Yes so the way it was, gays could get married if they found a church to marry them, the choice to marry even with heterosexual couples is up to the church, if you can't find a church you do it at a courthouse. Prop 8 made it illegal for gays to marry even at court houses. Telling a gay person they can get married but not calling it marriage is even more insulting than saying they can't Ok I wasn't all that versed in Prop 8. The first paragraph I completely agree with. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:35 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:29 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:27 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:25 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. The principles of Libertarianism are to maximize individual liberty, minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions, or for some libertarians (me), the abolition of the state. So yes, your attitude that the state should be able to have control over who can and cannot get married is in direct conflict with libertarian ideals. Marriage is not a right; I believe in Federalism. Therefore I am not against any tenants of libertarianism. Personally, if I had the choice I would abolish all state derived benefits associated with marriage and civil unions. The abolition of the state, is called anarchy. You're an anarchist, not a libertarian. You're right, I am. Guess what, anarchy is nothing more than an extreme form of libertarianism. You're belief that without a state that you have maximum freedom and personal liberty is in reality, the opposite. Without some structure, you have no liberty or freedom, because anyone can come and take from you and kill you. There is no laws, to prevent this. Anyways off topic. There are no laws to prevent somebody from coming and killing me, but there are also no laws preventing me from defending myself, or even doing the same to them. Safety != liberty or freedom. However, this is completely off topic for this thread. To make this relevant I'll address your continued assertion that marriage is not a right. You are correct, marriage is not a right. However allowing the government to decide who is capable of entering into the privilege of marriage is still counter to libertarian ideals. You are arguing against things that are not happening. Nobody is trying to change the church's rights or definition of marriage. The problem is that there is a governmental institution of marriage, which is conducted by the state, and is being denied to individuals. You don't get to decide that somebody can't drive a car because you don't like the make of car they're driving. Likewise you shouldn't get to decide that a person cannot be married in a state sanctioned union because you dont' like the person they're marrying. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:46 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:35 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:29 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:27 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:25 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:18 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 10:12 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:03 Diomedes wrote: Aegraen is posting offensive stereotype nonsense, in the bluntest most unconvincing manners, in almost every thread. So surely you are wrong. Main problem is his intentions. I suspect he is some enbittered far left wing 'liberal' trying to make 'his opponents' look bad. Try again, I'm a libertarian/conservative. You call yourself that but your attitude and viewpoints are completely counter to libertarian/conservative ideals. No, they are not. The principles of Libertarianism are to maximize individual liberty, minimization of state power over individuals' personal and economic decisions, or for some libertarians (me), the abolition of the state. So yes, your attitude that the state should be able to have control over who can and cannot get married is in direct conflict with libertarian ideals. Marriage is not a right; I believe in Federalism. Therefore I am not against any tenants of libertarianism. Personally, if I had the choice I would abolish all state derived benefits associated with marriage and civil unions. The abolition of the state, is called anarchy. You're an anarchist, not a libertarian. You're right, I am. Guess what, anarchy is nothing more than an extreme form of libertarianism. You're belief that without a state that you have maximum freedom and personal liberty is in reality, the opposite. Without some structure, you have no liberty or freedom, because anyone can come and take from you and kill you. There is no laws, to prevent this. Anyways off topic. There are no laws to prevent somebody from coming and killing me, but there are also no laws preventing me from defending myself, or even doing the same to them. Safety != liberty or freedom. However, this is completely off topic for this thread. To make this relevant I'll address your continued assertion that marriage is not a right. You are correct, marriage is not a right. However allowing the government to decide who is capable of entering into the privilege of marriage is still counter to libertarian ideals. You are arguing against things that are not happening. The nobody is trying to change the church's rights or definition of marriage. The problem is that there is a governmental institution of marriage, which is conducted by the state, and is being denied to individuals. You don't get to decide that somebody can't drive a car because you don't like the make of car they're driving. Likewise you shouldn't get to decide that a person cannot be married in a state sanctioned union because you dont' like the person they're marrying. Who said I am against civil unions? Secondly, I'd be perfectly happy abolishing all state derived benefits to both civil unions and marriage. I don't see why having a baby entitles you to tax cuts, and all sorts of other ludicrous bonus' over individuals. I shouldn't be subsidizing other's children. On that point, we should repel the 16th amendment, and institute a fair tax. The rate at which is proposed now, is way too high (23%), more in line would be a 10-15% tax, and require 2/3 of house and senate to raise. This is way off topic now. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
In that case wouldn't that mean that there's no formal institution of marriage? How would custody battles be decided then if there's no such legal thing as marriage? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. | ||
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KwarK
United States42185 Posts
It's a secular institution and one which is so entrenched within our society that entrenching a rival institution for gays to the same extent would be impossible. The only way to make it fair is to allow anyone who wants to get married to get married. If the church then wants to make up their own thing which is for straight couples only then they can. After all, it's not like they invented marriage, it was a social institution, as it always had been, when they claimed that only they had the right to officiate in it. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:05 scwizard wrote: So you think that there shouldn't be a governmental institution of marriage? In that case wouldn't that mean that there's no formal institution of marriage? How would custody battles be decided then if there's no such legal thing as marriage? No, government should not give benefits to those in civil unions or marriage. This includes, tax breaks, tax exemptions, etc. There is a formal institution, you just wouldn't receive any benefits for being married. The same way they are now. Whoever is the more fit parent receives custody. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:10 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:05 scwizard wrote: So you think that there shouldn't be a governmental institution of marriage? In that case wouldn't that mean that there's no formal institution of marriage? How would custody battles be decided then if there's no such legal thing as marriage? No, government should not give benefits to those in civil unions or marriage. This includes, tax breaks, tax exemptions, etc. There is a formal institution, you just wouldn't receive any benefits for being married. The same way they are now. Whoever is the more fit parent receives custody. Ahh, ok. That is a very reasonable ground to take. It'll never catch on though. Heterosexuals won't accept it though, because it deprives them of benefits, and homosexuals will never accept it because it deprives them of the opportunity to have the government make their relationship something legitimate through calling it officially marriage. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. How statistically prevalent does something need to be before it can be "normalized"? | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. The problem with this example is that pedophilia and murder are damaging to other people. Homosexuality affects nobody except the two people involved, who in my opinion are entitled to decide what is right for them as long as it is not affecting others. You can make the argument that gay marriage affects others by giving them tax benefits or whatnot, but as long as straight couples are entitled to those benefits then the state should not be able to deny homosexual couples those same benefits. As I said in my first post, the state sanctioned institution of marriage should not exist. Have a system of unions that allows for rights such as visitation, custody, etc and be done with it. But as long as the governmental institution of marriage exists it needs to be equal for everyone regardless of their sexual affiliation. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:15 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:10 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:05 scwizard wrote: So you think that there shouldn't be a governmental institution of marriage? In that case wouldn't that mean that there's no formal institution of marriage? How would custody battles be decided then if there's no such legal thing as marriage? No, government should not give benefits to those in civil unions or marriage. This includes, tax breaks, tax exemptions, etc. There is a formal institution, you just wouldn't receive any benefits for being married. The same way they are now. Whoever is the more fit parent receives custody. Ahh, ok. That is a very reasonable ground to take. It'll never catch on though. Heterosexuals won't accept it though, because it deprives them of benefits, and homosexuals will never accept it because it deprives them of the opportunity to have the government make their relationship something legitimate through calling it officially marriage. Of course. It's all about money (Mostly in respect to homosexuals), for both parties. ![]() Then again, you have to have some principles to turn down money. Say, like, what all states who cherish federalism should have done to all Stimulus money. Oh well. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. you really got me there, and i was just about to make plans for those 50 bucks. | ||
Kwidowmaker
Canada978 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. Fucking is slang, you can't even try to fucking give it a definite definition. The animal world is incredibly homosexual at times. Early civilisation had homosexuality. What you mean by "normal" is what is currently accepted by society. But society can be improved. The only reasons for not letting gays marry are bigoted and cruel. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:21 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. The problem with this example is that pedophilia and murder are damaging to other people. Homosexuality affects nobody except the two people involved, who in my opinion are entitled to decide what is right for them as long as it is not affecting others. You can make the argument that gay marriage affects others by giving them tax benefits or whatnot, but as long as straight couples are entitled to those benefits then the state should not be able to deny homosexual couples those same benefits. As I said in my first post, the state sanctioned institution of marriage should not exist. Have a system of unions that allows for rights such as visitation, custody, etc and be done with it. But as long as the governmental institution of marriage exists it needs to be equal for everyone regardless of their sexual affiliation. While I agree, as long as there is state derived benefits, there should be civil unions, and marriage. To me, its a social and cultural battle as well, but I agree that they should be entitled to the same benefits, however, calling it marriage, no. I'm just wondering how far you are going to push this. What about NAMBLA? What about Polygamy? What about pedophilia? As long as you aren't calling marriage a right, and it is indeed a benefit, then the state and ultimately the populace (voters), can decide who can, and who cannot receive that benefit. It is called a democratic notion. The will of the voters has been done. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:25 Kwidowmaker wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. Fucking is slang, you can't even try to fucking give it a definite definition. The animal world is incredibly homosexual at times. Early civilisation had homosexuality. What you mean by "normal" is what is currently accepted by society. But society can be improved. The only reasons for not letting gays marry are bigoted and cruel. Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. Secondly, look up fuck in the merriam-webster dictionary. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. | ||
alt.tday
United States180 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an oriface that it fits into. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an oriface that it fits into. well nature didn't create dicks so we could masturbate but pretty much everyone does it so if 2 guys or 2 chicks love each other then what is the problem ? or would u suddenly be ok with 2 chicks getting married if one of them got a sex change operation ? | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an oriface that it fits into. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_conjugation So if you really want to talk about what is natural then Non-heterosexual sex is orders of magnitude more common than heterosexual sex. Oh and dont load the debate by anthropomorphising nature. Nature is not an anti-gay marriage advocate. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
Fucking is defined as penis going into vagina. Therefore two women can't fuck unless one of them has a penis. And if you've never seen a women with a penis, then you haven't read as much hentai as I have ![]() However fucking as a slangword is defined loosely. I've seen it used to refer to homosexual sex., but being a slangword it has no formal definition. ^ and that's really all there is to say on the matter ^ | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
if it's because they can't have chrildren then sterile hetrosexuals should be denied it aswell. | ||
s_side
United States700 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:20 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. How statistically prevalent does something need to be before it can be "normalized"? You still haven't answered this Aegraen :/ | ||
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:39 s_side wrote: It seems to me that there are MANY more important things we should be worrying about. I could give a shit about what you stick your dick in as long as it's of age and not retarded. You left out the 'consenting' part lol | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
this has been pointed out over and over, in other threads than this one as well. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:41 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:20 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. How statistically prevalent does something need to be before it can be "normalized"? You still haven't answered this Aegraen :/ Thats for each person to answer, and generally for society to decide. My personal opinion on the matter, at least 15%. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:43 travis wrote: that's because he very very clearly chooses the posts that will be easy for him to respond to, and doesn't respond to the other stuff. this has been pointed out over and over, in other threads than this one as well. There's like 8 people I'm talking to, I have a life outside this forum. How about you go into every thread and debate with multiple people. Of course its not reasonable for me to respond to every post. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:43 travis wrote: that's because he very very clearly chooses the posts that will be easy for him to respond to, and doesn't respond to the other stuff. this has been pointed out over and over, in other threads than this one as well. Oh man ![]() This is one of the disadvantages internet debate has over irl debate ![]() | ||
expendable
United States17 Posts
Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. I'm trying to not get banned after my first post so I'm going to keep this extra nice. "The population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe of any rights." This, then, means that slavery was fine? Imagine if we tried to tell all black people that they are allowed to have civil unions but that they are barred from marriage because that isn't "normal" - even thinking that would get you labeled a racist. You, instead of being racist, are homophobic. A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. The constitution was written with the goal that the majority would never be able to take away the rights of the minority. The fact that you don't consider marriage a right for gays is laughable. Again, imagine if you tried to say that blacks should only get civil unions to 'preserve marriage'. There is absolutely no justification for saying "we have x, but they shouldn't get it because they're black/gay/insert-physical-characteristic-here." I really wish you could be gay (or any minority) for a day so that you could see the real consequences of your discrimination. being gay isn't natural/normal and therefore gays don't deserve what we have This arguments really makes me think you're trolling, but i'm gonna respond anyway - hopefully you are just very young and haven't seen much of the real world yet. This line of thinking is exactly how the Holocaust was caused - anyone (specifically Jews) who isn't of the 'Aryan race' i.e. normal was killed. I'm sure we can both agree that this is something that we would all like to avoid repeating. | ||
Kwidowmaker
Canada978 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:30 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:25 Kwidowmaker wrote: On May 30 2009 11:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. Fucking is slang, you can't even try to fucking give it a definite definition. The animal world is incredibly homosexual at times. Early civilisation had homosexuality. What you mean by "normal" is what is currently accepted by society. But society can be improved. The only reasons for not letting gays marry are bigoted and cruel. Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. Secondly, look up fuck in the merriam-webster dictionary. Fuck is used too frequently by people who didn't look it up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary for me to take Merriam seriously on this one. But that's just spitting hairs. Just because most of the population decide that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry doesn't mean that it's not cruel and bigoted. It's bigoted because it's justified on the most ignorant grounds - 'Gay is unnatural' 'They want to make my children gay' 'They want to force churches to marry them' 'Gays are violent protesters' - and because it feeds on the bigoted anti-gay sentiment that exists. It's cruel because it punishes a segment of the population simply for their choice of sex. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:46 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:43 travis wrote: that's because he very very clearly chooses the posts that will be easy for him to respond to, and doesn't respond to the other stuff. this has been pointed out over and over, in other threads than this one as well. Oh man ![]() This is one of the disadvantages internet debate has over irl debate ![]() Another disadvantage is that I can't rebuttal with hard proven facts and make people stutter, or relinquish the arguement at hand. Though, with debates on opinions, this normally isn't the case. However, if it was IRL I would have pushed the nuclear family part further. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:28 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:21 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. The problem with this example is that pedophilia and murder are damaging to other people. Homosexuality affects nobody except the two people involved, who in my opinion are entitled to decide what is right for them as long as it is not affecting others. You can make the argument that gay marriage affects others by giving them tax benefits or whatnot, but as long as straight couples are entitled to those benefits then the state should not be able to deny homosexual couples those same benefits. As I said in my first post, the state sanctioned institution of marriage should not exist. Have a system of unions that allows for rights such as visitation, custody, etc and be done with it. But as long as the governmental institution of marriage exists it needs to be equal for everyone regardless of their sexual affiliation. While I agree, as long as there is state derived benefits, there should be civil unions, and marriage. To me, its a social and cultural battle as well, but I agree that they should be entitled to the same benefits, however, calling it marriage, no. I'm just wondering how far you are going to push this. What about NAMBLA? What about Polygamy? What about pedophilia? As long as you aren't calling marriage a right, and it is indeed a benefit, then the state and ultimately the populace (voters), can decide who can, and who cannot receive that benefit. It is called a democratic notion. The will of the voters has been done. I'd push it as far as consenting adults can decide what they do together. Pedophilia is not between consenting adults,it is an adult taking advantage of a person who does not understand the consequences of their actions, or is being forced into something they don't want to do. Polygamy should be nobody's business except those involved as long as its between adults capable of making their own decisions. And no, the state cannot decide who can benefit from an institution such as marriage. That's called discrimination and there are laws specifically to prevent it. Accepting one type of discrimination as okay while others are not is hypocritical. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
Also, can straight people get a civil union? I can't imagine why they should be discriminated against, there would be no argument. But then, gay people can't get a marriage so its not equal. Last point: when the laws that govern the benefits of marriage inevitably change, civil unions (being different) might not automatically change with them. Separate but equal is not equal. | ||
Kerotan
England2109 Posts
In addition, animals engaging in homosexual relationships is well documented, and more to the point, if two people love each other enough to make the commitment, then who are we to argue as outside observers that they can't just because they can't reproduce the species that way. Just give them the civil rights of conventional couples, call it whatever you like. Also to the guy above me, "separate but equal is not equal" Hear, hear. | ||
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:47 Kwidowmaker wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:25 Kwidowmaker wrote: On May 30 2009 11:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. Fucking is slang, you can't even try to fucking give it a definite definition. The animal world is incredibly homosexual at times. Early civilisation had homosexuality. What you mean by "normal" is what is currently accepted by society. But society can be improved. The only reasons for not letting gays marry are bigoted and cruel. Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. Secondly, look up fuck in the merriam-webster dictionary. Fuck is used too frequently by people who didn't look it up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary for me to take Merriam seriously on this one. But that's just spitting hairs. Just because most of the population decide that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry doesn't mean that it's not cruel and bigoted. It's bigoted because it's justified on the most ignorant grounds - 'Gay is unnatural' 'They want to make my children gay' 'They want to force churches to marry them' 'Gays are violent protesters' - and because it feeds on the bigoted anti-gay sentiment that exists. It's cruel because it punishes a segment of the population simply for their choice of sex. Very loaded wording haha. I think most/all people will agree it's not fair to label it as 'choice.' | ||
s_side
United States700 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:43 micronesia wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:39 s_side wrote: It seems to me that there are MANY more important things we should be worrying about. I could give a shit about what you stick your dick in as long as it's of age and not retarded. You left out the 'consenting' part lol Haha. Indeed I did. That issue aside, it seems to me like you have to be a pretty insecure individual to feel that your marriage is threatened by someone else's marriage to someone of the same sex. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:47 expendable wrote: Show nested quote + Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. I'm trying to not get banned after my first post so I'm going to keep this extra nice. "The population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe of any rights." This, then, means that slavery was fine? Imagine if we tried to tell all black people that they are allowed to have civil unions but that they are barred from marriage because that isn't "normal" - even thinking that would get you labeled a racist. You, instead of being racist, are homophobic. Show nested quote + A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. The constitution was written with the goal that the majority would never be able to take away the rights of the minority. The fact that you don't consider marriage a right for gays is laughable. Again, imagine if you tried to say that blacks should only get civil unions to 'preserve marriage'. There is absolutely no justification for saying "we have x, but they shouldn't get it because they're black/gay/insert-physical-characteristic-here." I really wish you could be gay (or any minority) for a day so that you could see the real consequences of your discrimination. Actually funny you should bring that up since whether a slave was allowed to get married was determined by his master. Now this was traditional, done since the begining of time. It was still wrong. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:48 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:46 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:43 travis wrote: that's because he very very clearly chooses the posts that will be easy for him to respond to, and doesn't respond to the other stuff. this has been pointed out over and over, in other threads than this one as well. Oh man ![]() This is one of the disadvantages internet debate has over irl debate ![]() Another disadvantage is that I can't rebuttal with hard proven facts. you should've stopped right there. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check | ||
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micronesia
United States24615 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:49 Idle wrote: Pedophilia is not between consenting adults,it is an adult taking advantage of a person who does not understand the consequences of their actions, or is being forced into something they don't want to do. Be careful. I know you mean no harm, but you are making a mistake that is rather dangerous when perpetuated. Pedophilia is not rape, or anything like that. It is a sexual preference and/or psychological disorder/state. Pedophilia is a particular case of Paraphilia, which is "powerful and persistent sexual interest other than in copulatory or precopulatory behavior with phenotypically normal, consenting adult human partners." quoth wikipedia | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:44 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:41 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:20 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. How statistically prevalent does something need to be before it can be "normalized"? You still haven't answered this Aegraen :/ Thats for each person to answer, and generally for society to decide. My personal opinion on the matter, at least 15%. Damn, women who's had sex during their lifetime with other women is at 11% according to a study. So close and yet so far. Nice dodge ![]() Well anyways what culture considers as normal is obviously not a binary. I would still like to see homosexual relationships considered normal, because of the reasons I initially gave. Hopefully more states will embrace gay marriage, which will help homosexual relationships be considered more normal than they are now. But yeah, if you consider anything below 15% to be abnormal, and you believe that it's wrong to try and force abnormal things into the cultural norm, then I'll never be able to convince you that you should vote against proposition 8 G_G | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:47 expendable wrote: Show nested quote + Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. I'm trying to not get banned after my first post so I'm going to keep this extra nice. "The population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe of any rights." This, then, means that slavery was fine? Imagine if we tried to tell all black people that they are allowed to have civil unions but that they are barred from marriage because that isn't "normal" - even thinking that would get you labeled a racist. You, instead of being racist, are homophobic. Show nested quote + A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. The constitution was written with the goal that the majority would never be able to take away the rights of the minority. The fact that you don't consider marriage a right for gays is laughable. Again, imagine if you tried to say that blacks should only get civil unions to 'preserve marriage'. There is absolutely no justification for saying "we have x, but they shouldn't get it because they're black/gay/insert-physical-characteristic-here." I really wish you could be gay (or any minority) for a day so that you could see the real consequences of your discrimination. Slavery took away the rights of blacks. That's why there was a Civil Rights movement. Oh, I guess I'm homophobic, even though I don't care who they hell they fuck. I don't care if they even hit on me, I just tell them I'm not gay and thats that, if it continues then I can press charges for being harassed. Couple that with, I don't mind being friends, with, or if I have family members that are gay (as my last GF had a gay brother and I couldn't have cared less). Anyways, if it makes you feel your arguement is any better by labeling the opposition as 'racist' or 'homophobic', then so be it. Whatever makes you feel you hold the moral high ground. You're so infallible. Oh, I'm glad you think it's laughable even though, the Bill of Rights and US Constitution clearly expresses that marriage is not a right. If you believe it is a right, then you agree with NAMBLA, pedophilia, polygamy, etc. You can't just extend rights to one group, or a few groups, a right is specific to all groups. Think this through before you start down the road of 'marriage is a right, not a benefit' | ||
L
Canada4732 Posts
I think there going to be a point where legal arguments start to break down and a new classification of childrearing couples vs. non-childrearing couples will become a greater concern than homo/heterosexual issues, and government will back out of the marriage business entirely and simply enforce marriage as a subsection of contractual obligations. There's a LOT of work to be done in the western world to produce a sustainable policy on family law which is gender equitable, accurate, and fair. Homosexual rights are just the tip of the iceberg. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:49 Idle wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:21 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. The problem with this example is that pedophilia and murder are damaging to other people. Homosexuality affects nobody except the two people involved, who in my opinion are entitled to decide what is right for them as long as it is not affecting others. You can make the argument that gay marriage affects others by giving them tax benefits or whatnot, but as long as straight couples are entitled to those benefits then the state should not be able to deny homosexual couples those same benefits. As I said in my first post, the state sanctioned institution of marriage should not exist. Have a system of unions that allows for rights such as visitation, custody, etc and be done with it. But as long as the governmental institution of marriage exists it needs to be equal for everyone regardless of their sexual affiliation. While I agree, as long as there is state derived benefits, there should be civil unions, and marriage. To me, its a social and cultural battle as well, but I agree that they should be entitled to the same benefits, however, calling it marriage, no. I'm just wondering how far you are going to push this. What about NAMBLA? What about Polygamy? What about pedophilia? As long as you aren't calling marriage a right, and it is indeed a benefit, then the state and ultimately the populace (voters), can decide who can, and who cannot receive that benefit. It is called a democratic notion. The will of the voters has been done. I'd push it as far as consenting adults can decide what they do together. Pedophilia is not between consenting adults,it is an adult taking advantage of a person who does not understand the consequences of their actions, or is being forced into something they don't want to do. Polygamy should be nobody's business except those involved as long as its between adults capable of making their own decisions. And no, the state cannot decide who can benefit from an institution such as marriage. That's called discrimination and there are laws specifically to prevent it. Accepting one type of discrimination as okay while others are not is hypocritical. The government is in the business of discrimination. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
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Kwidowmaker
Canada978 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:50 micronesia wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:47 Kwidowmaker wrote: On May 30 2009 11:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:25 Kwidowmaker wrote: On May 30 2009 11:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:13 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5zOlPsO6U4 Fucking means copulation. Two non-human females cannot fuck. I guess you fell for it. Fucking is slang, you can't even try to fucking give it a definite definition. The animal world is incredibly homosexual at times. Early civilisation had homosexuality. What you mean by "normal" is what is currently accepted by society. But society can be improved. The only reasons for not letting gays marry are bigoted and cruel. Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. Secondly, look up fuck in the merriam-webster dictionary. Fuck is used too frequently by people who didn't look it up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary for me to take Merriam seriously on this one. But that's just spitting hairs. Just because most of the population decide that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry doesn't mean that it's not cruel and bigoted. It's bigoted because it's justified on the most ignorant grounds - 'Gay is unnatural' 'They want to make my children gay' 'They want to force churches to marry them' 'Gays are violent protesters' - and because it feeds on the bigoted anti-gay sentiment that exists. It's cruel because it punishes a segment of the population simply for their choice of sex. Very loaded wording haha. I think most/all people will agree it's not fair to label it as 'choice.' I didn't realise that when I wrote it. It is a choice in that it's a conscious choice of who you have sex with, but I agree that one cannot choose who or what one is attracted to. If that were the case tubbies wouldn't be so lonely ![]() | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
Anyways, if it makes you feel your arguement is any better by labeling the opposition as 'racist' or 'homophobic', then so be it. Whatever makes you feel you hold the moral high ground. You're so infallible Don't be a hypocrite, this is your favorite argument which you use in every thread. On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. On May 30 2009 11:57 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:49 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 11:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:21 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. The problem with this example is that pedophilia and murder are damaging to other people. Homosexuality affects nobody except the two people involved, who in my opinion are entitled to decide what is right for them as long as it is not affecting others. You can make the argument that gay marriage affects others by giving them tax benefits or whatnot, but as long as straight couples are entitled to those benefits then the state should not be able to deny homosexual couples those same benefits. As I said in my first post, the state sanctioned institution of marriage should not exist. Have a system of unions that allows for rights such as visitation, custody, etc and be done with it. But as long as the governmental institution of marriage exists it needs to be equal for everyone regardless of their sexual affiliation. While I agree, as long as there is state derived benefits, there should be civil unions, and marriage. To me, its a social and cultural battle as well, but I agree that they should be entitled to the same benefits, however, calling it marriage, no. I'm just wondering how far you are going to push this. What about NAMBLA? What about Polygamy? What about pedophilia? As long as you aren't calling marriage a right, and it is indeed a benefit, then the state and ultimately the populace (voters), can decide who can, and who cannot receive that benefit. It is called a democratic notion. The will of the voters has been done. I'd push it as far as consenting adults can decide what they do together. Pedophilia is not between consenting adults,it is an adult taking advantage of a person who does not understand the consequences of their actions, or is being forced into something they don't want to do. Polygamy should be nobody's business except those involved as long as its between adults capable of making their own decisions. And no, the state cannot decide who can benefit from an institution such as marriage. That's called discrimination and there are laws specifically to prevent it. Accepting one type of discrimination as okay while others are not is hypocritical. The government is in the business of discrimination. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? Affirmative action only exists because America was dominated by a long period of discrimination. Affirmative action promotes equality, like always you're ignoring historical context. Turns out it's a little harder for ethnic minorities / women to get a job, even in this day and age. Stop looking at everything through your own eyes. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:55 Aegraen wrote: You know what else isn't a right? The right to vote. The right to citizenry. If your following the same logic as saying marriage isn't a right. It's a right in the sense that we shouldn't discriminate based on arbitrary moral standards, such as gender. Age is NOT morally arbitrary (and one could argue polygamy is or isn't). Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:47 expendable wrote: Ah, there goes the bigot and cruel pejoratives. You realize, this is hurting the movement, not strengthening it correct? Anyways, the population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe on any rights. I'm trying to not get banned after my first post so I'm going to keep this extra nice. "The population can decide who receives benefits and who doesn't, as long as it doesn't infringe of any rights." This, then, means that slavery was fine? Imagine if we tried to tell all black people that they are allowed to have civil unions but that they are barred from marriage because that isn't "normal" - even thinking that would get you labeled a racist. You, instead of being racist, are homophobic. A right being those granted under the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, not whatever conjured rights you make up. The constitution was written with the goal that the majority would never be able to take away the rights of the minority. The fact that you don't consider marriage a right for gays is laughable. Again, imagine if you tried to say that blacks should only get civil unions to 'preserve marriage'. There is absolutely no justification for saying "we have x, but they shouldn't get it because they're black/gay/insert-physical-characteristic-here." I really wish you could be gay (or any minority) for a day so that you could see the real consequences of your discrimination. Slavery took away the rights of blacks. That's why there was a Civil Rights movement. Oh, I guess I'm homophobic, even though I don't care who they hell they fuck. I don't care if they even hit on me, I just tell them I'm not gay and thats that, if it continues then I can press charges for being harassed. Couple that with, I don't mind being friends, with, or if I have family members that are gay (as my last GF had a gay brother and I couldn't have cared less). Anyways, if it makes you feel your arguement is any better by labeling the opposition as 'racist' or 'homophobic', then so be it. Whatever makes you feel you hold the moral high ground. You're so infallible. Oh, I'm glad you think it's laughable even though, the Bill of Rights and US Constitution clearly expresses that marriage is not a right. If you believe it is a right, then you agree with NAMBLA, pedophilia, polygamy, etc. You can't just extend rights to one group, or a few groups, a right is specific to all groups. Think this through before you start down the road of 'marriage is a right, not a benefit' | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:53 micronesia wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:49 Idle wrote: Pedophilia is not between consenting adults,it is an adult taking advantage of a person who does not understand the consequences of their actions, or is being forced into something they don't want to do. Be careful. I know you mean no harm, but you are making a mistake that is rather dangerous when perpetuated. Pedophilia is not rape, or anything like that. It is a sexual preference and/or psychological disorder/state. Pedophilia is a particular case of Paraphilia, which is "powerful and persistent sexual interest other than in copulatory or precopulatory behavior with phenotypically normal, consenting adult human partners." quoth wikipedia Thank you, let me try to clarify my position better. I have no problems with the condition of pedophilia. while I find it to be unsettling, I also see that it is a condition that the person has no control over. Where it crosses the line is acting upon your compulsion. the people a pedophile has a preference of having sexual relations with (children) are not capable of having a consenting sexual relationship. They aren't capable of understanding the consequences and are not emotionally prepared for such acts. It is the act of having sex with a person not capable of consenting that I have a problem with, not the preference itself. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
Oh, but sorry, "I'm so close-minded and need to move with the times" Give me a break... We're honestly going backwards, not forwards. Homosexual culture in Ancient Greece was around for a long time, it's nothing new!!!! The family unit has all but been, destroyed and it is because of all this political correct 'nonsense' that they feed us in the media. Now please don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against homosexuals at all (my best friend is a homosexual), but I do have a problem with normalizing it in our society. | ||
expendable
United States17 Posts
Oh, I'm glad you think it's laughable even though, the Bill of Rights and US Constitution clearly expresses that marriage is not a right. If you believe it is a right, then you agree with NAMBLA, pedophilia, polygamy, etc. You can't just extend rights to one group, or a few groups, a right is specific to all groups. Think this through before you start down the road of 'marriage is a right, not a benefit' Marriage is not the right - the right is equal protection under the law, which this is blatantly not. Marriage is not the issue here, the issue is that some people think it is OK to have different laws for different people (in this case, gays instead of blacks) - which is exactly what started the civil rights movement. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. It is impossible for two members of the same gender to reproduce. I'm sure no one is disagreeing with you on this. Stop avoiding the actual issues. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:57 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:49 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 11:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:21 Idle wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. Is pedophilia normal? Is murder, normal? Extremes, but it drives the point down, that at such huge minority, it cannot be constituted as something that is normal. The problem with this example is that pedophilia and murder are damaging to other people. Homosexuality affects nobody except the two people involved, who in my opinion are entitled to decide what is right for them as long as it is not affecting others. You can make the argument that gay marriage affects others by giving them tax benefits or whatnot, but as long as straight couples are entitled to those benefits then the state should not be able to deny homosexual couples those same benefits. As I said in my first post, the state sanctioned institution of marriage should not exist. Have a system of unions that allows for rights such as visitation, custody, etc and be done with it. But as long as the governmental institution of marriage exists it needs to be equal for everyone regardless of their sexual affiliation. While I agree, as long as there is state derived benefits, there should be civil unions, and marriage. To me, its a social and cultural battle as well, but I agree that they should be entitled to the same benefits, however, calling it marriage, no. I'm just wondering how far you are going to push this. What about NAMBLA? What about Polygamy? What about pedophilia? As long as you aren't calling marriage a right, and it is indeed a benefit, then the state and ultimately the populace (voters), can decide who can, and who cannot receive that benefit. It is called a democratic notion. The will of the voters has been done. I'd push it as far as consenting adults can decide what they do together. Pedophilia is not between consenting adults,it is an adult taking advantage of a person who does not understand the consequences of their actions, or is being forced into something they don't want to do. Polygamy should be nobody's business except those involved as long as its between adults capable of making their own decisions. And no, the state cannot decide who can benefit from an institution such as marriage. That's called discrimination and there are laws specifically to prevent it. Accepting one type of discrimination as okay while others are not is hypocritical. The government is in the business of discrimination. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? Which is also something I am 100% against. Affirmative action is nothing more than discrimination of the majority, which to me is just as wrong as discrimination of the minorities. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:54 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:44 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:41 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:20 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:12 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 10:53 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: Please, homosexuals stop trying to impose your ideology onto others. It's getting a tad ridiculous. You aren't happy with having the same benefits in civil unions, you just want to the name 'marriage' and to impose your views on everyone. I have heard from homosexuals that the homosexual agenda is to make gay marriage legal, so that homosexuality will begin to be considered something that's normal in our culture. Truly this terrible agenda must be stopped :O Homosexuality, isn't normal. Propagation of the species is hardcoded into all species. Something that a tiny minority of the country does, isn't normal. (I'm waiting for, but, but, animals have same-sex also!) I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. Also, while it may happen, and rarely at that, two males having sex in the wild (lions, zebra, spiders, what have you), is not the norm. With the laws of propagation and nature out of the way, I don't care one iota what gays do in their lives. I'm for, civil unions. I also am for abolishment of state derived benefits to all parties. Gays have every single right entitled to them as citizens of the USA under the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence (throwing this one here, just for the hell of it). The day that gays are denied one of the rights entitled to all citizens of this country, will be the day I'll stand up for them. At least we stopped calling it a right. We're using normal to mean different things here. I'm using normal to mean: Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard So basically, something that's is part of the standard culture. While you're using it to mean: Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. Are you saying that nothing biologically unnatural should be culturally acceptable? Because that's a pretty absurd stance to take. No, what I'm saying is that trying to normalize something that a huge minority does, goes against what constitutes normalcy. How statistically prevalent does something need to be before it can be "normalized"? You still haven't answered this Aegraen :/ Thats for each person to answer, and generally for society to decide. My personal opinion on the matter, at least 15%. Damn, women who's had sex during their lifetime with other women is at 11% according to a study. So close and yet so far. Nice dodge ![]() Well anyways what culture considers as normal is obviously not a binary. I would still like to see homosexual relationships considered normal, because of the reasons I initially gave. Hopefully more states will embrace gay marriage, which will help homosexual relationships be considered more normal than they are now. But yeah, if you consider anything below 15% to be abnormal, and you believe that it's wrong to try and force abnormal things into the cultural norm, then I'll never be able to convince you that you should vote against proposition 8 G_G I wouldn't ever. But, again I don't live in CA, and my residency is in FL. You should be going after the black and hispanic population of CA as they are very traditional and adamantly oppose gay marriage. Most whites are actually, in favor. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:01 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. So when did nature become a barrier for humans? Do surgeries occure in nature? Techonlogy? You are a bad troll and your arguments are so archaic you sound beyond dumb. Your posts always full of fallacies. I take them as an insult to my intelligence, so go fuck yourself. Someone ban this idiot. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:00 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + Anyways, if it makes you feel your arguement is any better by labeling the opposition as 'racist' or 'homophobic', then so be it. Whatever makes you feel you hold the moral high ground. You're so infallible Don't be a hypocrite, this is your favorite argument which you use in every thread. Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. Not a hypocrit, those things happened and can be proven. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:01 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. Ok, first of all fuck is definitely colloquial. Secondly, and more importantly, OBVIOUSLY this basically destroys any argument based of naturalness or whatever you were hoping to achieve. BTW: according to dictionary.com sexual intercourse (which is according to dictionary.com also what fucking is) is genital contact, esp. the insertion of the penis into the vagina followed by orgasm; coitus; copulation. NOTE: especially not exclusively Another definition: Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis. Obviously its impossible for anything besides humans (hetero or homo sexual) to fuck, in this sense, but take that out and it seems like...the moneky's are fucking. $50? | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:02 expendable wrote: It is impossible for two members of the same gender to reproduce. Not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacktip_shark "In the absence of males, females are also capable of asexual reproduction." | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:06 Archerofaiur wrote: Aegraen you better be paying at least one of us. Hands you ten rubels. | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:01 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Our kids will be exposed to this, and there is a lot of evidence that suggests environmental factors play a huge role in making one homosexual or not. I certainly don't want my future kids to think being homosexual is normal and fine, when it clearly isn't. I'd love to see one unbiased study that suggests environmental factors play a role in one's sexuality. The only ones I can find have been done by or funded by organizations with an anti-homosexual agenda. You need to support your argument with evidence. Additionally, saying something "clearly" isn't fine is a complete joke when that's the basis of an entire debate. If its being debated then sorry bud but its not clearly anything. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:01 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. What's so hard to comprehend is why any of this is relevant to anything. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:10 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:02 expendable wrote: It is impossible for two members of the same gender to reproduce. Not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacktip_shark "In the absence of males, females are also capable of asexual reproduction." Wrong. I guess you missed the part where it said two members of the same gender. Asexual reproduction, is conducted purely by one individual. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:10 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:01 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. What's so hard to comprehend is why any of this is relevant to anything. Regardless... I think I've shown him to be fairly wrong. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:05 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:00 Frits wrote: Anyways, if it makes you feel your arguement is any better by labeling the opposition as 'racist' or 'homophobic', then so be it. Whatever makes you feel you hold the moral high ground. You're so infallible Don't be a hypocrite, this is your favorite argument which you use in every thread. On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. Not a hypocrit, those things happened and can be proven. I am anti-prop 8, please prove how I did any of those things. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:10 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:01 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. What's so hard to comprehend is why any of this is relevant to anything. Originally, it was to point out that homosexuality, is not normal, because it goes against nature and for the propagation of species (Whether this is any merit to the arguement is for each person to think about, then again I pointed this also, because this is the true goal of the pro-gay marriage agenda, to normalize their actions). Then I threw in jest the 50$ comment, because if people would have noticed, the statement illustrated the impossibility of the situation. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
I still haven't seen an example of two members of the same gender, in a two (or more) gendered species, being capable of sexual reproduction. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:14 scwizard wrote: Aegraen is actually correct and doesn't owe any of you people jack. I still haven't seen an example of two members of the same gender, in a two (or more) gendered species, being capable of sexual reproduction. He said fuck. No reproduction. Therefore he owes me $50 | ||
benjammin
United States2728 Posts
where would we be? | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:11 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:10 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 12:02 expendable wrote: It is impossible for two members of the same gender to reproduce. Not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacktip_shark "In the absence of males, females are also capable of asexual reproduction." Wrong. I guess you missed the part where it said two members of the same gender. Asexual reproduction, is conducted purely by one individual. Sigh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdelloidea There happy? The entire race is female. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:13 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:05 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:00 Frits wrote: Anyways, if it makes you feel your arguement is any better by labeling the opposition as 'racist' or 'homophobic', then so be it. Whatever makes you feel you hold the moral high ground. You're so infallible Don't be a hypocrite, this is your favorite argument which you use in every thread. On May 30 2009 09:39 Aegraen wrote: Anyways, anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. Vandalizing property, threatening peoples lives, assault and battery, runs the gamut. Reminds me of the gestapo. Calling up businesses and threatening them with violence, etc. Not a hypocrit, those things happened and can be proven. I am anti-prop 8, please prove how I did any of those things. Let me amend my statement then. Many anti-prop 8 supporters are oppressive. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:15 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:14 scwizard wrote: Aegraen is actually correct and doesn't owe any of you people jack. I still haven't seen an example of two members of the same gender, in a two (or more) gendered species, being capable of sexual reproduction. He said fuck. No reproduction. Therefore he owes me $50 Then he clarified fuck to mean reproduction. If you want to get technical, then fuck means sexual intercourse, and sexual intercourse means "Coitus between humans." Therefore nothing that's not human can fuck. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
god. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
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jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. except the definition of fuck is broader, as was previously mentioned. but i guess you "having a life" made you skip that post. | ||
MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:16 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:11 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:10 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 12:02 expendable wrote: It is impossible for two members of the same gender to reproduce. Not true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacktip_shark "In the absence of males, females are also capable of asexual reproduction." Wrong. I guess you missed the part where it said two members of the same gender. Asexual reproduction, is conducted purely by one individual. Sigh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdelloidea There happy? The entire race is female. I don't think you understand what asexual means. Merriam Webster: Asexual - : involving or reproducing by reproductive processes (as cell division, spore formation, fission, or budding) that do not involve the union of individuals or gametes <asexual reproduction> <an asexual generation> b: produced by asexual reproduction <asexual spores> | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
This is using Aegraen's definition of the word fuck. End of story. Using other definitions maybe they can, but not using his. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:18 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:15 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:14 scwizard wrote: Aegraen is actually correct and doesn't owe any of you people jack. I still haven't seen an example of two members of the same gender, in a two (or more) gendered species, being capable of sexual reproduction. He said fuck. No reproduction. Therefore he owes me $50 Then he clarified fuck to mean reproduction. If you want to get technical, then fuck means sexual intercourse, and sexual intercourse means "Coitus between humans." Therefore nothing that's not human can fuck. Yeah but its obvious he's assuming that animals can fuck. Only heterosexual ones though. But it turns out he's wrong. I didn't see the reproduction part though. DISCLAIMER: If anyone points me out to be a flaming idiot I can change the entire meaning of what I said. Thank you! | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:20 scwizard wrote: Guys, two females can't fuck. This is using Aegraen's definition of the word fuck. End of story. Using other definitions maybe they can, but not using his. Oh ok. Two humans can't kiss. I'm keeping my definition a secret though, until someone proves me wrong. See how difficult that makes communication? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
Aegraen, tell everyone here how you define fuck so we can settle this once and for all. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:13 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:10 Frits wrote: On May 30 2009 12:01 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 11:32 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 11:31 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 11:07 Aegraen wrote: I'll pay 50$ to the first person who can show me how two female non-humans can fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm Ill take cash or check. Once again. Earthworms are hermaphrodites. Not female. Edit: The point I was trying to make, is that nature didn't create females to fuck each other. Nor, did they create males to fuck each other, just so happens they have an orifice that it fits into. Wait wait wait. You are aware homosexual relations A) have happened all throughout human history, and B) happen in non-humans? http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/20/63351/1173 edit: I'll take cash or check /facepalm. It is impossible, for two non-human females to fuck each other. You have to have a penis (Not necessarily, in the human sense, since dildo's fill the niche of sexual intercourse), to fuck, this is called copulation, or sexual intercourse. What is so hard to comprehend. What's so hard to comprehend is why any of this is relevant to anything. Originally, it was to point out that homosexuality, is not normal, because it goes against nature and for the propagation of species (Whether this is any merit to the arguement is for each person to think about, then again I pointed this also, because this is the true goal of the pro-gay marriage agenda, to normalize their actions). Then I threw in jest the 50$ comment, because if people would have noticed, the statement illustrated the impossibility of the situation. It happens, therefore it's part of nature, since we all originated from nature. Where do you decide nature stops and abnormal starts? Doesn't the fact that it occurs in non human nature all the time make it normal? What do you even know about the biology of homosexuality and it's effects on species? Please don't start a biological debate because your statement about the $50 bet already shows that you know nothing about the diversity of nature. Besides if you were to apply that argument you would have to conclude that women who can't get pregnant (or anyone who can't reproduce) shouldn't be allowed to marry because they go against the propagation of species. You're basically saying that anyone who isn't normal should not be allowed to marry. You draw the line at homosexuality, maybe it's time to change where we draw the line? It certainly would help diminish discrimination. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:20 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:18 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:14 scwizard wrote: Aegraen is actually correct and doesn't owe any of you people jack. I still haven't seen an example of two members of the same gender, in a two (or more) gendered species, being capable of sexual reproduction. He said fuck. No reproduction. Therefore he owes me $50 Then he clarified fuck to mean reproduction. If you want to get technical, then fuck means sexual intercourse, and sexual intercourse means "Coitus between humans." Therefore nothing that's not human can fuck. Yeah but its obvious he's assuming that animals can fuck. Only heterosexual ones though. But it turns out he's wrong. I didn't see the reproduction part though. DISCLAIMER: If anyone points me out to be a flaming idiot I can change the entire meaning of what I said. Thank you! I didn't say only heterosexual ones. Go back and read the post. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Intercourse is: 3: physical sexual contact between individuals that involves the genitalia of at least one person ^ according to webster ^ Therefore females can fuck by touching their genitalia together in a sexual way. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:25 IntoTheWow wrote: Don't waste your time with him. Just ignore the troll. Can we just all ignore this idiot? Do you call everyone who opposes your views an idiot? Take a step back and see how flinging pejoratives doesn't help anyones case when arguing. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
*"physical sexual contact between individuals that involves the genitalia of at least one person" is intercourse *intercourse is fucking *therefore tribadism is fucking *therefore two females can fuck My logic is flawless. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:28 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:25 IntoTheWow wrote: Don't waste your time with him. Just ignore the troll. Can we just all ignore this idiot? Do you call everyone who opposes your views an idiot? Take a step back and see how flinging pejoratives doesn't help anyones case when arguing. No i call an idiot someone who engages in argument and uses logical fallacies. Also someone who chooses which posts to ignore and which ones to answer. If you are going to play devil's advocate in every thread you enter than answer all the posts you get and without using fallacies. | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Most fungi have both a haploid and diploid stage in their life cycles. In sexually-reproducing fungi, compatible individuals combine by cell fusion of vegetative hyphae by anastomosis, required for the initiation of the sexual cycle. Ascomycetes and basidiomycetes go through a dikaryotic stage, in which the nuclei inherited from the two parents do not fuse immediately after cell fusion, but remain separate in the hyphal cells (see heterokaryosis). The 8-spored asci of Morchella elata, viewed with phase contrast microscopy.In ascomycetes, dikaryotic hyphae of the hymenium form a characteristic hook at the hyphal septum. During cell division, formation of the hook ensures proper distribution of the newly divided nuclei into the apical and basal hyphal compartments. An ascus (plural asci) is then formed, in which karyogamy (nuclear fusion) occurs. These asci are embedded in an ascocarp, or fruiting body. Karyogamy in the asci is followed immediately by meiosis and the production of ascospores. The ascospores are disseminated and germinate and may form a new haploid mycelium.[49]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus#Sexual_reproduction I could do this all day. See thats the funny thing about nature. It created a whole bunch of ways for organisms to reproduce. You know why? Because theres no one right way. So you can stick to heterosexual missionary with a traditional post-colital cigarrette. But stop claiming nature meant for your way to be the best. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: clever. Except read scwizard's post. I can go get my dictionary (actual paper) if you want. But he seems to have owned you pretty hard. give him the 50?Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:30 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:25 IntoTheWow wrote: Don't waste your time with him. Just ignore the troll. Can we just all ignore this idiot? Do you call everyone who opposes your views an idiot? Take a step back and see how flinging pejoratives doesn't help anyones case when arguing. No i call an idiot someone who engages in argument and uses logical fallacies. Also someone who chooses which posts to ignore and which ones to answer. If you are going to play devil's advocate in every thread you enter than answer all the posts you get and without using fallacies. I'm sorry, I cannot be reasonably required to answer every post when I'm debating with upwards of 6+ posters. To impose those requirements is pretty absurd restriction isn't it? Secondly, when dealing with opinions, as such this is, there is no such thing as logic. Belief systems are not built upon logic. Principles, are not built upon logic. Values, are not built upon logic. I all ready laid out my opinion in the matter, I've just been needlessly arguing semantics for the past 2 pages. I won't stoop to actually, calling you an idiot, but I think people who base their beliefs on logic, and who bases the merits of opinions on logic, is, sorry, the idiot. Philosophy is antithesis to logic, and that is the core of belief systems. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:34 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + clever. Except read scwizard's post. I can go get my dictionary (actual paper) if you want. But he seems to have owned you pretty hard. give him the 50?On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary I don't have any way to accept 50$, but temaliquid does. Donate it to the site ![]() | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:33 Archerofaiur wrote: "Species may possess vegetative incompatibility systems that allow mating only between individuals of opposite mating type, while others can mate and sexually reproduce with any other individual or itself. Species of the former mating system are called heterothallic, and of the latter homothallic.[48] Most fungi have both a haploid and diploid stage in their life cycles. In sexually-reproducing fungi, compatible individuals combine by cell fusion of vegetative hyphae by anastomosis, required for the initiation of the sexual cycle. Ascomycetes and basidiomycetes go through a dikaryotic stage, in which the nuclei inherited from the two parents do not fuse immediately after cell fusion, but remain separate in the hyphal cells (see heterokaryosis). The 8-spored asci of Morchella elata, viewed with phase contrast microscopy.In ascomycetes, dikaryotic hyphae of the hymenium form a characteristic hook at the hyphal septum. During cell division, formation of the hook ensures proper distribution of the newly divided nuclei into the apical and basal hyphal compartments. An ascus (plural asci) is then formed, in which karyogamy (nuclear fusion) occurs. These asci are embedded in an ascocarp, or fruiting body. Karyogamy in the asci is followed immediately by meiosis and the production of ascospores. The ascospores are disseminated and germinate and may form a new haploid mycelium.[49]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus#Sexual_reproduction I could do this all day. See thats the funny thing about nature. It created a whole bunch of ways for organisms to reproduce. You know why? Because theres no one right way. So you can stick to heterosexual missionary with a traditional post-colital cigarrette. But stop claiming nature meant for your way to be the best. It created two ways. Asexual and sexual. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:34 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:30 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:25 IntoTheWow wrote: Don't waste your time with him. Just ignore the troll. Can we just all ignore this idiot? Do you call everyone who opposes your views an idiot? Take a step back and see how flinging pejoratives doesn't help anyones case when arguing. No i call an idiot someone who engages in argument and uses logical fallacies. Also someone who chooses which posts to ignore and which ones to answer. If you are going to play devil's advocate in every thread you enter than answer all the posts you get and without using fallacies. I'm sorry, I cannot be reasonably required to answer every post when I'm debating with upwards of 6+ posters. To impose those requirements is pretty absurd restriction isn't it? Secondly, when dealing with opinions, as such this is, there is no such thing as logic. Belief systems are not built upon logic. Principles, are not built upon logic. Values, are not built upon logic. I all ready laid out my opinion in the matter, I've just been needlessly arguing semantics for the past 2 pages. I won't stoop to actually, calling you an idiot, but I think people who base their beliefs on logic, and who bases the merits of opinions on logic, is, sorry, the idiot. Philosophy is antithesis to logic, and that is the core of belief systems. Then what's to argue? If you believe something different then say "i believe in: this, this and this" and leave the thread. But stop posting shit like it's the one and only truth that there is. Facts that come from a logical train of though have more value that simple beliefs. Also your believes have nothing to do with you twisting the truth (such as leaving a definition from the dictionary out to favor your argument). Stop using silly scapegoats and argument. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:36 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:33 Archerofaiur wrote: "Species may possess vegetative incompatibility systems that allow mating only between individuals of opposite mating type, while others can mate and sexually reproduce with any other individual or itself. Species of the former mating system are called heterothallic, and of the latter homothallic.[48] Most fungi have both a haploid and diploid stage in their life cycles. In sexually-reproducing fungi, compatible individuals combine by cell fusion of vegetative hyphae by anastomosis, required for the initiation of the sexual cycle. Ascomycetes and basidiomycetes go through a dikaryotic stage, in which the nuclei inherited from the two parents do not fuse immediately after cell fusion, but remain separate in the hyphal cells (see heterokaryosis). The 8-spored asci of Morchella elata, viewed with phase contrast microscopy.In ascomycetes, dikaryotic hyphae of the hymenium form a characteristic hook at the hyphal septum. During cell division, formation of the hook ensures proper distribution of the newly divided nuclei into the apical and basal hyphal compartments. An ascus (plural asci) is then formed, in which karyogamy (nuclear fusion) occurs. These asci are embedded in an ascocarp, or fruiting body. Karyogamy in the asci is followed immediately by meiosis and the production of ascospores. The ascospores are disseminated and germinate and may form a new haploid mycelium.[49]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus#Sexual_reproduction I could do this all day. See thats the funny thing about nature. It created a whole bunch of ways for organisms to reproduce. You know why? Because theres no one right way. So you can stick to heterosexual missionary with a traditional post-colital cigarrette. But stop claiming nature meant for your way to be the best. It created two ways. Asexual and sexual. Asexual covers ALOT, it's like saying there are two countries in the world: Botswana and not-Botswana. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Donate the $50 to Teamliquid. And don't make stupid bets in the future. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:37 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:34 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:30 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:25 IntoTheWow wrote: Don't waste your time with him. Just ignore the troll. Can we just all ignore this idiot? Do you call everyone who opposes your views an idiot? Take a step back and see how flinging pejoratives doesn't help anyones case when arguing. No i call an idiot someone who engages in argument and uses logical fallacies. Also someone who chooses which posts to ignore and which ones to answer. If you are going to play devil's advocate in every thread you enter than answer all the posts you get and without using fallacies. I'm sorry, I cannot be reasonably required to answer every post when I'm debating with upwards of 6+ posters. To impose those requirements is pretty absurd restriction isn't it? Secondly, when dealing with opinions, as such this is, there is no such thing as logic. Belief systems are not built upon logic. Principles, are not built upon logic. Values, are not built upon logic. I all ready laid out my opinion in the matter, I've just been needlessly arguing semantics for the past 2 pages. I won't stoop to actually, calling you an idiot, but I think people who base their beliefs on logic, and who bases the merits of opinions on logic, is, sorry, the idiot. Philosophy is antithesis to logic, and that is the core of belief systems. Then what's to argue? If you believe something different then say "i believe in: this, this and this" and leave the thread. But stop posting shit like it's the one and only truth that there is. Facts that come from a logical train of though have more value that simple beliefs. Also your believes have nothing to do with you twisting the truth (such as leaving a definition from the dictionary out to favor your argument). Stop using silly scapegoats and argument. Believe it or not, some people like to debate and argue. This is why there are lawyers. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:41 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:37 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:34 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:30 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:25 IntoTheWow wrote: Don't waste your time with him. Just ignore the troll. Can we just all ignore this idiot? Do you call everyone who opposes your views an idiot? Take a step back and see how flinging pejoratives doesn't help anyones case when arguing. No i call an idiot someone who engages in argument and uses logical fallacies. Also someone who chooses which posts to ignore and which ones to answer. If you are going to play devil's advocate in every thread you enter than answer all the posts you get and without using fallacies. I'm sorry, I cannot be reasonably required to answer every post when I'm debating with upwards of 6+ posters. To impose those requirements is pretty absurd restriction isn't it? Secondly, when dealing with opinions, as such this is, there is no such thing as logic. Belief systems are not built upon logic. Principles, are not built upon logic. Values, are not built upon logic. I all ready laid out my opinion in the matter, I've just been needlessly arguing semantics for the past 2 pages. I won't stoop to actually, calling you an idiot, but I think people who base their beliefs on logic, and who bases the merits of opinions on logic, is, sorry, the idiot. Philosophy is antithesis to logic, and that is the core of belief systems. Then what's to argue? If you believe something different then say "i believe in: this, this and this" and leave the thread. But stop posting shit like it's the one and only truth that there is. Facts that come from a logical train of though have more value that simple beliefs. Also your believes have nothing to do with you twisting the truth (such as leaving a definition from the dictionary out to favor your argument). Stop using silly scapegoats and argument. Believe it or not, some people like to debate and argue. This is why there are lawyers. So basically you ignore my post and answer whatever you feel like? try again. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. We have come a long way since the stone age. We can reproduce without entering a penis inside a vagina. How is sexual intercourse a major problem to create marriage? Why are you looking for nature examples on sex when marriage is a men creation? Elaborate please. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? In context my dear. The true goal of the pro-gay marriage side is to normalize their actions and make acceptable to society (80% of america are christians, and while not homogenous in beliefs, catholicism the main denomination makes up the majority of christians). Not the obtaining of state derived benefits, though this is one goal, not the goal. In other words, it's a battle of religion whether you want to see it that way or not. Personally, I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. Again, I believe there should be no, state derived benefits for marriage or civil unions. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:44 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? In context my dear. The true goal of the pro-gay marriage side is to normalize their actions and make acceptable to society (80% of america are christians, and while not homogenous in beliefs, catholicism the main denomination makes up the majority of christians). Not the obtaining of state derived benefits, though this is one goal, not the goal. In other words, it's a battle of religion whether you want to see it that way or not. Personally, I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. Again, I believe there should be no, state derived benefits for marriage or civil unions. No it's not a battle of religion. See, gays do want to have their ways "normalized" as you put it, but that's not what this is about. Marriage is civil and therefore this should be based on civil ideals (secularism) instead of cultural ideals. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:44 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. Well in California the majority is forcing their belief that marriage is between a man and a woman on the minority. What makes that not also fascist? | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You claim to be agnostic? lol | ||
Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
Personally, I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. So, you would be for gay marriage then. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. Not love. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:44 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? In context my dear. The true goal of the pro-gay marriage side is to normalize their actions and make acceptable to society (80% of america are christians, and while not homogenous in beliefs, catholicism the main denomination makes up the majority of christians). Not the obtaining of state derived benefits, though this is one goal, not the goal. nice job completly dodging the question. why is reproduction important to marriage? In other words, it's a battle of religion whether you want to see it that way or not. Personally, I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. Again, I believe there should be no, state derived benefits for marriage or civil unions. no one is forcing any chrisitan church to marry gay couples, no one is forcing any christian anything. Prop 8 is to remove gay marriage, it's imposing christian beliefs on them. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:48 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:44 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: [quote] You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. Well in California the majority is forcing their belief that marriage is between a man and a woman on the minority. What makes that not also fascist? Marriage is not a right. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. it is? really? are you allowed to marry when you can't or won't have children? | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:51 Archerofaiur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: [quote] You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. Not love. Actually, an evolutionary and biological argument could be made that reproduction is the reason love exists in the first place. | ||
2nd1rst
United States40 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:44 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? In context my dear. The true goal of the pro-gay marriage side is to normalize their actions and make acceptable to society (80% of america are christians, and while not homogenous in beliefs, catholicism the main denomination makes up the majority of christians). Not the obtaining of state derived benefits, though this is one goal, not the goal. In other words, it's a battle of religion whether you want to see it that way or not. Personally, I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. Again, I believe there should be no, state derived benefits for marriage or civil unions. I'm with Aegraen I don't think marriage should have anything to do with the states/government. I also don't see why you are getting so upset over this IntoTheWow. You belittle his argument and even go so far as to ask mods to ban him in the irc? | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:50 Jyvblamo wrote: Show nested quote + Personally, I think it's pretty fascist to force your belief system on other's when there is no right being infringed upon. So, you would be for gay marriage then. No, but civil unions I'm for. I've said this many times over. | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:52 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:51 Archerofaiur wrote: On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: [quote] Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. Not love. Actually, an evolutionary and biological argument could be made that reproduction is the reason love exists in the first place. An evolutionary argument can be made that reproduction is the reason everything about humans exists and functions how it does in the first place... | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:52 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: [quote] You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. it is? really? are you allowed to marry when you can't or won't have children? These days marriage has evolved into something else for some people, but historically getting married was intrinsically tied to reproduction. Hence the tradition of consummating marriages. "Its [consummation's] legal significance arises from theories of marriage as having the purpose of producing legally recognized descendants of the partners" On May 30 2009 12:54 Nadagast wrote: An evolutionary argument can be made that reproduction is the reason everything about humans exists and functions how it does in the first place... Exactly. | ||
APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:57 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:52 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: [quote] Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. it is? really? are you allowed to marry when you can't or won't have children? These days marriage has evolved into something else for some people, but historically getting married was intrinsically tied to reproduction. Hence the tradition of consummating marriages. "Its [consummation's] legal significance arises from theories of marriage as having the purpose of producing legally recognized descendants of the partners" are we talking about going back in time and introducing gay marriage? old defenitions of marriage are irrelevant. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:57 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:52 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: [quote] Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: You said 50$. Its ok though cause everyone knew you were A) wrong when you made that statement and B) not the kind of person who would follow through on his word anyway You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. it is? really? are you allowed to marry when you can't or won't have children? These days marriage has evolved into something else for some people, but historically getting married was intrinsically tied to reproduction. Hence the tradition of consummating marriages. "Its [consummation's] legal significance arises from theories of marriage as having the purpose of producing legally recognized descendants of the partners" Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:54 Nadagast wrote: An evolutionary argument can be made that reproduction is the reason everything about humans exists and functions how it does in the first place... Exactly. My entire point was that your point was unnecessary | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
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scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:58 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:57 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:52 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:44 scwizard wrote: On May 30 2009 12:40 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:38 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:33 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:29 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:26 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: [quote] Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Uh proof that it's the only? besides your claim? btw: the source on dictionary.com for MY definition is Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. I used the actual Merriam-Webster website. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary On May 30 2009 12:23 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:17 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 12:15 Aegraen wrote: [quote] You seriously believe two non-human females can fuck? Fuck means copulation. Copulation means sexual intercourse. In the animal kingdom, it is impossible for two females to fuck, period. If they could, it would go against every single thing we know. Dictionary.com Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS 2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis Merriam-Webster is the most reputable dictionary there is for the english language, and is generally considered the only. Main Entry: sexual intercourse Function: noun Date: 1799 1 : heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : coitus 2 : intercourse (as anal or oral intercourse) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis Yeah, funny how you chose to leave the 3rd definition out. There is no third definition. As long as we going by merriam-webster, and intercourse is defined as such, I would say yes, then I am wrong. Too bad others can't admit when they are ever wrong. Anyways, rubbing genitals together, as defined as intercourse, however they can't reproduce. and going back to the original discussion, how is reproduction important to marriage? Well, to begin with it's the reason marriage exists in the first place. it is? really? are you allowed to marry when you can't or won't have children? These days marriage has evolved into something else for some people, but historically getting married was intrinsically tied to reproduction. Hence the tradition of consummating marriages. "Its [consummation's] legal significance arises from theories of marriage as having the purpose of producing legally recognized descendants of the partners" are we talking about going back in time and introducing gay marriage? old defenitions of marriage are irrelevant. I agree with you completely. Marriage has evolved over time and I would like to see it continue to evolve. I'm hoping the popular definition of marriage will evolve into something that encompasses unions of love between two or more partners of the of any combination of sexes. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:58 Mindcrime wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? Golden rule is philosophical, not logical. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:00 keV. wrote: Not granting gays the same marriage rights is straight up discrimination. End of story. Are you with me with abolishing Affirmative Action, minority favoring (free college, etc.), and other forms of governmental discrimination? | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? You see, a belief starts with an axiom. From there everything it's obtained due to logic (With the help of data, historical data in this case). Why do you think all religions base themselves on documents, historical data and logical arguments so much? Because they can ignore it while it's not there (Due to their axioms). But once religion goes against logic, it must change it's paradigm, or die against it. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:00 Aegraen wrote: Uh....philosophy is based on logic.Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:58 Mindcrime wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? Golden rule is philosophical, not logical. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:00 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:58 Mindcrime wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? Golden rule is philosophical, not logical. rofl wat | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:03 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + Uh....philosophy is based on logic.On May 30 2009 13:00 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:58 Mindcrime wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? Golden rule is philosophical, not logical. Some philosophy is based on logic. Some philosophy critiques logic (such as Kant *barf*) | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:02 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? You see, a belief starts with an axiom. From there everything it's obtained due to logic (With the help of data, historical data in this case). Why do you think all religions base themselves on documents, historical data and logical arguments so much? Because they can ignore it while it's not there (Due to their axioms). But once religion goes against logic, it must change it's paradigm, or die against it. What? Faith is antithetical to logic. Religion is built upon faith. So, I guess jonah and the whale, adam and eve, jesus ressurecting, are all built upon logical arguements, historical data, and documentation of events. | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:01 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:00 keV. wrote: Not granting gays the same marriage rights is straight up discrimination. End of story. Are you with me with abolishing Affirmative Action, minority favoring (free college, etc.), and other forms of governmental discrimination? Yes. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:04 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:03 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:00 Aegraen wrote: Uh....philosophy is based on logic.On May 30 2009 12:58 Mindcrime wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? Golden rule is philosophical, not logical. Some philosophy is based on logic. Some philosophy critiques logic (such as Kant *barf*) Kant is great. Great as in he contributed a lot to the field of philosophy like it or not. | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? You're being disingenuous, switching between is and ought; I think most people in this thread are concerned with ought, not is | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? It is a right, just because you can convolute an issue doesn't mean I have to waste my time. It is a right of passage for two people demonstrating there loyality and commitment inside of all societies. Period. I am a biggot, people who think gay people do not deserve x right or y right are disgusting trash. I have no problem thinking biggots are garage, guess what I also hate racist biggots and sexist biggots too. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:05 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:02 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? You see, a belief starts with an axiom. From there everything it's obtained due to logic (With the help of data, historical data in this case). Why do you think all religions base themselves on documents, historical data and logical arguments so much? Because they can ignore it while it's not there (Due to their axioms). But once religion goes against logic, it must change it's paradigm, or die against it. What? Faith is antithetical to logic. Religion is built upon faith. So, I guess jonah and the whale, adam and eve, jesus ressurecting, are all built upon logical arguements, historical data, and documentation of events. Now you are being stupid and taking parable in a literal sense... Religion is based in faith, and from them there from logic. The same way every science needs a base to stand on, and from there build it's paradigm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom Math, Physics, chemistry, nothing would exist without axioms. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: The difference is whether something is morally arbitrary or not. Age is not a morally arbitrary barrier (although perhaps WHEN we qualify "adulthood" is) Gender is. Polygamy might be, I could go both ways on that. Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
"Oh well if we cant drown people then that means we cant put people in jail. We have to draw the line somewhere." | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage minor exceptions? you mean like not counting as married if you decide to move states? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots! | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage pretty good reason. also, prop 8 was to take away their right, not to introduce it. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. stopped reading there You are an ignorant fool. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. No, children don't have the same ability to consent that adults do. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots! being a pedophile isn't illegal, molesting children is. see the difference? also prop 8 was forcing the christian view of marriage on everyone else, not the other way around. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that I think I am intelligent, I think Ill post.. Prop 8 is nothing more than something I know nothing about, that's all it is, nothing else. <COMPLETELY FALSE STATEMENT THAT I DID NOT RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage fixed | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote: #2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word" So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:21 Mindcrime wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. No, children don't have the same ability to consent that adults do. Nor do most adults. Consent has a lot to do with maturity. The arbitrary age of 18 isn't a magical period of, now they can consent, before they can't. What reasoning do you bring for the age of 18? In ancient rome adulthood was, what 13 or 14? (I forget the exact age, though I know it is young). In many cultures it is 12 or 13. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready. | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready. Why shouldn't they get all? | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:22 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots! being a pedophile isn't illegal, molesting children is. see the difference? also prop 8 was forcing the christian view of marriage on everyone else, not the other way around. You mean the universal religious view of marriage? | ||
Savio
United States1850 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:27 keV. wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready. Why shouldn't they get all? I'm not saying they should, however they should in a civil union, not marriage. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage Uh...ok first of all no it's not. Second who cares what it is? What's wrong with normalizing homosexuality? Did they do something wrong, is there something innately better about "traditional" family values? Have you noticed saying "traditional" is a much nicer-sounding way of say "bigot"? The KKK defended their position on racism by declaring their values "traditional" and protecting "traditional anglo-saxon values" much the same way we seem to be protecting traditional christian values here. By the law creating a distinction they encourage separation between gays and straights. It's actually a good thing to normalize. | ||
Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready. they already had it. prop 8 was about removing it. you keep on talking about them imposing their beleifs on everyone else when it was the other way around. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:27 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:22 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote: Well what a shocker. After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots. I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back. While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple. Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots! being a pedophile isn't illegal, molesting children is. see the difference? also prop 8 was forcing the christian view of marriage on everyone else, not the other way around. You mean the universal religious view of marriage? Universal?? Since when? | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready. You realize prop 8 outlaws gay marriage, so this was initiated by people against gay marriage, right? | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:14 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:05 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:02 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote: No one if forcing your belief system. Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? You see, a belief starts with an axiom. From there everything it's obtained due to logic (With the help of data, historical data in this case). Why do you think all religions base themselves on documents, historical data and logical arguments so much? Because they can ignore it while it's not there (Due to their axioms). But once religion goes against logic, it must change it's paradigm, or die against it. What? Faith is antithetical to logic. Religion is built upon faith. So, I guess jonah and the whale, adam and eve, jesus ressurecting, are all built upon logical arguements, historical data, and documentation of events. Now you are being stupid and taking parable in a literal sense... Religion is based in faith, and from them there from logic. The same way every science needs a base to stand on, and from there build it's paradigm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom Math, Physics, chemistry, nothing would exist without axioms. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:23 D10 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote: [quote] Please provide any rational justification for this statement. [quote] This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word" So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it. i'm a barbarian because i asked wether marriage must be allowed by a religion? | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:30 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:23 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote: [quote] Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word" So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it. i'm a barbarian because i asked wether marriage must be allowed by a religion? You are a barbarian becaouse you had to ask And Aegraen, yep its a right universal to all groups, of 2 adult human beings. Seriously, you are a pedophile, play the devil advocate's here and tell me how would you make the argument that because any group of 2 adult human beings being able to marry that would theoretically extend that right to groups bigger than 2 people or children or animals, explain. | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
Some gays are crazy, I'm sure they love nothing more than going to war with the one thing that has kept them under a microscope their whole lives (religion) fighting endlessly for the word "marriage." If the fight was honestly just for the word marriage, then I would tell them to shut it too. However, that is not the case. | ||
jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:33 D10 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:30 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:23 D10 wrote: On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote: On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote: [quote] ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word" So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it. i'm a barbarian because i asked wether marriage must be allowed by a religion? You are a barbarian becaouse you had to ask And Aegraen, yep its a right universal to all groups, of 2 adult human beings. Seriously, you are a pedophile, play the devil advocate's here and tell me how would you make the argument that because any group of 2 adult human beings being able to marry that would theoretically extend that right to groups bigger than 2 people or children or animals, explain. edit: misunderstanding. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:35 keV. wrote: If civil unions provided the SAME EXACT benefits that marriages did AND was recognized by the entire nation, you would hear less uproar. Some gays are crazy, I'm sure they love nothing more than going to war with the one thing that has kept them under a microscope their whole lives (religion) fighting endlessly for the word "marriage." If the fight was honestly just for the word marriage, then I would tell them to shut it too. However, that is not the case. I wouldn't. The letter of the law reflects and changes the morality of the people. Basically, the law should reflect the societal ideal. So in this case it would be the ideal that gay and straight people are treated and looked at equally. | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:39 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:35 keV. wrote: If civil unions provided the SAME EXACT benefits that marriages did AND was recognized by the entire nation, you would hear less uproar. Some gays are crazy, I'm sure they love nothing more than going to war with the one thing that has kept them under a microscope their whole lives (religion) fighting endlessly for the word "marriage." If the fight was honestly just for the word marriage, then I would tell them to shut it too. However, that is not the case. I wouldn't. The letter of the law reflects and changes the morality of the people. Basically, the law should reflect the societal ideal. So in this case it would be the ideal that gay and straight people are treated and looked at equally. Thats silly and also impossible, have you been to the south? Its more important that they are viewed as equal by the government, one word isn't going to change generations of bible thumping. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote: lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage Jan and Tom decided that if we allowed black people to be married it could have harmful consequences. Jan and Tom's children might be read stories about two black people being married. Churchs might be required to marry black people. And adopted children might be placed under the care of BLACK PEOPLE! Jan and Tom are still friends with there black nieghbors. In fact there having a BBQ right now. But they decided that its ok to discriminate as long as you can justify it with fearful scenarios. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:41 keV. wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:39 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:35 keV. wrote: If civil unions provided the SAME EXACT benefits that marriages did AND was recognized by the entire nation, you would hear less uproar. Some gays are crazy, I'm sure they love nothing more than going to war with the one thing that has kept them under a microscope their whole lives (religion) fighting endlessly for the word "marriage." If the fight was honestly just for the word marriage, then I would tell them to shut it too. However, that is not the case. I wouldn't. The letter of the law reflects and changes the morality of the people. Basically, the law should reflect the societal ideal. So in this case it would be the ideal that gay and straight people are treated and looked at equally. Thats silly and also impossible, have you been to the south? Its more important that they are viewed as equal by the government, one word isn't going to change generations of bible thumping. Of course it's silly and impossible. It's they ideal. Equal by the government only comes when they both are recognized as marriage. Is it progress to get separate but equal? yes. Is it perfect? no. | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent | ||
2nd1rst
United States40 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:45 Aegraen wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 11:43 travis wrote: that's because he very very clearly chooses the posts that will be easy for him to respond to, and doesn't respond to the other stuff. this has been pointed out over and over, in other threads than this one as well. There's like 8 people I'm talking to, I have a life outside this forum. How about you go into every thread and debate with multiple people. Of course its not reasonable for me to respond to every post. Fair enough but from what I have observed it seems like you skip over the best points. Just opinion, but I do try to be impartial. | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:43 Nadagast wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent Well that's what I would respond. Then he would tell you about how it endangers society and how it's unnatural. And how they already have rights. The paradox of anti-gay marriage is this: If getting the word marriage is no big deal, then why not let them get it? If it IS a big deal, then they should be allowed to get it, because not getting it is violating their rights. | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:46 2nd1rst wrote: I am a christian and I am not sure what to think about prop 8. According to my religion Homosexuality is a sin, but so are a lot of of other things. To me gay marriage is not a big deal because it does not really hurt me. But it pisses me off to see people call proponents of prop 8 "disgusting trash" and acting like if you believe gay marriage is wrong you are a troll or an idiot. It is not unreasonable to be concerned with the effects gay marriage could have on society and your children. I don't see how this is pure discrimination when domestic partnerships have the same legal rights and privileges as marriages in California. Domestic partnerships ARE NOT THE SAME THING as marriages. They are regulated by state and sometimes not even recognized period. If you don't see the issue with that, then you are a god damn idiot. I don't care if you are religious or not. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:48 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain What right should not extend to all groups? | ||
Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:47 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:43 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent Well that's what I would respond. Then he would tell you about how it endangers society and how it's unnatural. And how they already have rights. It doesn't endanger society at all; gay people are already living together and having relationships and the world hasn't exploded. 'Unnatural'? As if that's a good argument that anything is bad, and it's not even true... Heh. I know you aren't making these points, but I wanted to reply to hypothetical-Aegraen | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:49 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:48 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain What right should not extend to all groups? Well what do you mean by morally? Voting is arguable. Although I think it should go to everyone. The right to bear arms? | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:51 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:49 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain What right should not extend to all groups? Well what do you mean by morally? Voting is arguable. Although I think it should go to everyone. The right to bear arms? ok well I guess you are right heh. I didn't consider some things. the penal system and children are examples where this breaks down but I think that most rights should be extended to all groups | ||
2nd1rst
United States40 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:47 keV. wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:46 2nd1rst wrote: I am a christian and I am not sure what to think about prop 8. According to my religion Homosexuality is a sin, but so are a lot of of other things. To me gay marriage is not a big deal because it does not really hurt me. But it pisses me off to see people call proponents of prop 8 "disgusting trash" and acting like if you believe gay marriage is wrong you are a troll or an idiot. It is not unreasonable to be concerned with the effects gay marriage could have on society and your children. I don't see how this is pure discrimination when domestic partnerships have the same legal rights and privileges as marriages in California. Domestic partnerships ARE NOT THE SAME THING as marriages. They are regulated by state and sometimes not even recognized period. If you don't see the issue with that, then you are a god damn idiot. I don't care if you are religious or not. What do you mean they are "regulated by state and sometimes not even recognized period." Can you give a few examples. I am genuinely interested in this, because as i stated in my post I am not sure what to think of prop 8. | ||
Culture
Canada488 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:51 Nadagast wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:47 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:43 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent Well that's what I would respond. Then he would tell you about how it endangers society and how it's unnatural. And how they already have rights. It doesn't endanger society at all; gay people are already living together and having relationships and the world hasn't exploded. 'Unnatural'? As if that's a good argument that anything is bad, and it's not even true... Heh. I know you aren't making these points, but I wanted to reply to hypothetical-Aegraen Basically, marriage is important because it allows society to form monogamies which are important for society to exist (this is actually true, i can argue this one) Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. Also marriage is a religious ceremony at its roots and therefore you cannot force religion to bend to others wills. "Although I am very liberal I am concerned about the institution of marraige. Marraige is the foundation to a proper family. Almost all these sacred bonds between a man and a women yield children. These children will have the best chance for survival if their parents are in love and don't stray. This is true from a Darwinian point of view, being in love means there is less chance of straying to another partner because of chemical reactions tricking our minds into believing the one we are with is the best possible choice. However, this chemical reaction isn't enough. Humans are a very social species and even in the most primitive cultures there was the idea of this sacred bond between men and women. People who loved, and cultures that had this bond were the groups that had the best chance of survival, and thus went on reproducing to lead to us." Some dude earlier on | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:52 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:51 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:49 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain What right should not extend to all groups? Well what do you mean by morally? Voting is arguable. Although I think it should go to everyone. The right to bear arms? ok well I guess you are right heh. I didn't consider some things. the penal system and children are examples where this breaks down but I think that most rights should be extended to all groups Of course, I think you are right there. The system of rights would break down otherwise. | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:53 2nd1rst wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:47 keV. wrote: On May 30 2009 13:46 2nd1rst wrote: I am a christian and I am not sure what to think about prop 8. According to my religion Homosexuality is a sin, but so are a lot of of other things. To me gay marriage is not a big deal because it does not really hurt me. But it pisses me off to see people call proponents of prop 8 "disgusting trash" and acting like if you believe gay marriage is wrong you are a troll or an idiot. It is not unreasonable to be concerned with the effects gay marriage could have on society and your children. I don't see how this is pure discrimination when domestic partnerships have the same legal rights and privileges as marriages in California. Domestic partnerships ARE NOT THE SAME THING as marriages. They are regulated by state and sometimes not even recognized period. If you don't see the issue with that, then you are a god damn idiot. I don't care if you are religious or not. What do you mean they are "regulated by state and sometimes not even recognized period." Can you give a few examples. I am genuinely interested in this, because as i stated in my post I am not sure what to think of prop 8. Marriage is recognized by the federal government. Which means that EVERYONE who is legally married regardless of where they live (in the USA) is entitled to the benefits marriage provide. Civil Unions/Domestic Partnerships are NOT recognized by the federal government, they are regulated by the STATE. IE I get married to Tom in Massachusetts and we totally love anal sex, then Tom gets a job offer that can change our life, but its in Tennessee, so our "marriage" is meaningless there and we lose all of our benefits. Is that fair? Religion should not even be included in the argument period. | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:00 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Kev, you raise a valid point about the civil union not being accepted in other states. However, there in lie the problem, other states.... So is not your problem with other states? ?? edit: the more states with gay marriage the more places it's recognized | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:00 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Kev, you raise a valid point about the civil union not being accepted in other states. However, there in lie the problem, other states.... So is not your problem with other states? or the judiciary that fails to apply the full faith and credit clause and allows a marriage in one state to not be recognized in another. :| | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:03 2b-Rigtheous wrote: why don't other states accept the civil union? Well if its illegal there, then that means their people don't want it. Meaning the don't have to recognize it because its a state thing. | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:00 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Kev, you raise a valid point about the civil union not being accepted in other states. However, there in lie the problem, other states.... So is not your problem with other states? No. These civil unions and domestic partnerships are also different in every state. Even if all the states had a gay marriage policy they would all be regulated separately with different clauses/discrepancies. In my eyes, the only way to make it fair, is to recognize some form of gay union at the federal level, that carries with it ALL of the benefits that legally married people receive. | ||
Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
^ argument to justify giving children different rights thn adults | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. Since when it's the purpose of marriage to reproduce? When did it become a requirement to be married to reproduce? You still live in the 1800's? Marriage is not even needed to raise a kid. Lots of 'modern' couples raise kids in concubinage. | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:06 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. Since when it's the purpose of marriage to reproduce? When did it become a requirement to be married to reproduce? You still live in the 1800's? Marriage is not even needed to raise a kid. Lots of 'modern' couples raise kids in concubinage. Well yeah that's a major hole in the argument ITW I actually am for gay marriage btw so please dont think these are my opinions. Not sure whether you did or not, this is just a disclaimer T_T | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:08 2b-Rigtheous wrote: of course I agree wholeheartedly with sentiment of gay union on a federal level. However, my problem is with normalizing homosexuality, not the rights that homosexuals are entitled to receive. So Prop 8 or not, it doesn't solve the problem in other states. It just forces them to travel to Cali to get married. Kind of like a loop hole. What's wrong with normalizing homosexuality? And even without prop 8 you can't just go to Cali to get married? because other states don't recognize it. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:08 2b-Rigtheous wrote: of course I agree wholeheartedly with sentiment of gay union on a federal level. However, my problem is with normalizing homosexuality, not the rights that homosexuals are entitled to receive. So Prop 8 or not, it doesn't solve the problem in other states. It just forces them to travel to Cali to get married. Kind of like a loop hole. you still don't know what prop 8 did? ffs | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:09 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 14:06 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. Since when it's the purpose of marriage to reproduce? When did it become a requirement to be married to reproduce? You still live in the 1800's? Marriage is not even needed to raise a kid. Lots of 'modern' couples raise kids in concubinage. Well yeah that's a major hole in the argument ITW I actually am for gay marriage btw so please dont think these are my opinions. Not sure whether you did or not, this is just a disclaimer T_T I know, sorry if i come off as attacking you. I'm not against you, i'm just trying to prove right what I think through logic... | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
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2nd1rst
United States40 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:05 keV. wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 14:00 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Kev, you raise a valid point about the civil union not being accepted in other states. However, there in lie the problem, other states.... So is not your problem with other states? No. These civil unions and domestic partnerships are also different in every state. Even if all the states had a gay marriage policy they would all be regulated separately with different clauses/discrepancies. In my eyes, the only way to make it fair, is to recognize some form of gay union at the federal level, that carries with it ALL of the benefits that legally married people receive. So does prop 8 not mean much in the grand scheme of things? If prop 8 had failed would other states be required to recognize gay marriages in California? | ||
DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:11 IntoTheWow wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 14:09 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 14:06 IntoTheWow wrote: On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. Since when it's the purpose of marriage to reproduce? When did it become a requirement to be married to reproduce? You still live in the 1800's? Marriage is not even needed to raise a kid. Lots of 'modern' couples raise kids in concubinage. Well yeah that's a major hole in the argument ITW I actually am for gay marriage btw so please dont think these are my opinions. Not sure whether you did or not, this is just a disclaimer T_T I know, sorry if i come off as attacking you. I'm not against you, i'm just trying to prove right what I think through logic... Oh no, its fine, I was just making sure you didn't think I was an idiot. I think the idea is that the basis of marriage is to reproduce even if you don't actually. And being gay eliminates that possibility. | ||
scwizard
United States1195 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:51 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:47 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:43 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent Well that's what I would respond. Then he would tell you about how it endangers society and how it's unnatural. And how they already have rights. It doesn't endanger society at all; gay people are already living together and having relationships and the world hasn't exploded. 'Unnatural'? As if that's a good argument that anything is bad, and it's not even true... Heh. I know you aren't making these points, but I wanted to reply to hypothetical-Aegraen Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. According to who? If you asked most people what the purpose of marriage was, I bet that most people wouldn't give that answer. Marriage is a human invention, a cultural concept, and it can change over time. Some of the cultural changes are effected by court rulings and passings of law. The word "marriage" means a lot more to people than what marriages mean legally. Marriages conjure up images of lifelong relationships, raising children together, weddings, the union of families. I think it's important that gay marriage be recognized legally, and not merely gay "civil unions", because saying that gays are allowed to marry says a number of other things as well, such as: 1. It's ok for two people of the same gender to raise children together. Who could object to a married couple raising a child? 2. It's ok for two people of the same gender to have sex with each other. Who could object to a married couple having sex? 3. A gay relationship is a real relationship. Who could say that a marriage "isn't a real relationship"? 4. Attempting to breaking appart a married couple is wrong. It would be especially inconceivable to religious folk who consider marriage sacred to some degree. | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:11 2nd1rst wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 14:05 keV. wrote: On May 30 2009 14:00 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Kev, you raise a valid point about the civil union not being accepted in other states. However, there in lie the problem, other states.... So is not your problem with other states? No. These civil unions and domestic partnerships are also different in every state. Even if all the states had a gay marriage policy they would all be regulated separately with different clauses/discrepancies. In my eyes, the only way to make it fair, is to recognize some form of gay union at the federal level, that carries with it ALL of the benefits that legally married people receive. So does prop 8 not mean much in the grand scheme of things? If prop 8 had failed would other states be required to recognize gay marriages in California? States don't have to recognize anything passed in another state period. The only thing they have to adhere to is propositions or laws passed by the federal government. In reality prop 8 was just a massive attempt to keep the gay community down, funded by millions from Utah and other religious nutjobs with money. Some form of gay marriage (I don't live there, I don't know) was already in place, and prop 8 repealed it. | ||
2nd1rst
United States40 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:13 scwizard wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:51 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:47 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:43 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: [quote] Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent Well that's what I would respond. Then he would tell you about how it endangers society and how it's unnatural. And how they already have rights. It doesn't endanger society at all; gay people are already living together and having relationships and the world hasn't exploded. 'Unnatural'? As if that's a good argument that anything is bad, and it's not even true... Heh. I know you aren't making these points, but I wanted to reply to hypothetical-Aegraen Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. According to who? If you asked most people what the purpose of marriage was, I bet that most people wouldn't give that answer. Marriage is a human invention, a cultural concept, and it can change over time. Some of the cultural changes are effected by court rulings and passings of law. The word "marriage" means a lot more to people than what marriages mean legally. Marriages conjure up images of lifelong relationships, raising children together, weddings, the union of families. I think it's important that gay marriage be recognized legally, and not merely gay "civil unions", because saying that gays are allowed to marry says a number of other things as well, such as: 1. It's ok for two people of the same gender to raise children together. Who could object to a married couple raising a child? 2. It's ok for two people of the same gender to have sex with each other. Who could object to a married couple having sex? 3. A gay relationship is a real relationship. Who could say that a marriage "isn't a real relationship"? I think damage control was giving a hypothetical argument. I don't think that is actually his view. | ||
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:11 2nd1rst wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 14:05 keV. wrote: On May 30 2009 14:00 2b-Rigtheous wrote: Kev, you raise a valid point about the civil union not being accepted in other states. However, there in lie the problem, other states.... So is not your problem with other states? No. These civil unions and domestic partnerships are also different in every state. Even if all the states had a gay marriage policy they would all be regulated separately with different clauses/discrepancies. In my eyes, the only way to make it fair, is to recognize some form of gay union at the federal level, that carries with it ALL of the benefits that legally married people receive. So does prop 8 not mean much in the grand scheme of things? If prop 8 had failed would other states be required to recognize gay marriages in California? According to Article IV Section 1 of the US Constitution, yeah But reactionaries like to ignore the Constitution when it doesn't suit their purposes. | ||
jeddus
United States832 Posts
I think people should be free to make their choices, and I have heard a million arguements for either side, and I personally feel people have better things to do with their time. I have chosen my life, I leave others to choose their. With that said, I respect Prop 8 being upheld. The people voted. They voted before. May next time they will vote differently. And when they do, I will respect that vote. | ||
2b-Rigtheous
Korea (South)50 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:13 scwizard wrote: I really like this argument. It basically sums up the power that the law and word have over perception that many people seem unable to understand. Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:55 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:51 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:47 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:43 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:41 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:40 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:33 jeppew wrote: On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: [quote] Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard. I know and I'd say that for much the same reason, a 40 year old man has no right to marry a 10 year old girl, because sometimes rights aren't 100% 'do-whatever-you-want' universal Well that's what he would say to a man trying to marry a man Yeah except there is informed consent in the adult man + adult man case, in the 10 year old + 40 year old case, the 10 year old can't give informed consent Well that's what I would respond. Then he would tell you about how it endangers society and how it's unnatural. And how they already have rights. It doesn't endanger society at all; gay people are already living together and having relationships and the world hasn't exploded. 'Unnatural'? As if that's a good argument that anything is bad, and it's not even true... Heh. I know you aren't making these points, but I wanted to reply to hypothetical-Aegraen Essentially if gays are allowed to marry somehow it distorts the purpose of marriage since the point of marriage is to reproduce. According to who? If you asked most people what the purpose of marriage was, I bet that most people wouldn't give that answer. Marriage is a human invention, a cultural concept, and it can change over time. Some of the cultural changes are effected by court rulings and passings of law. The word "marriage" means a lot more to people than what marriages mean legally. Marriages conjure up images of lifelong relationships, raising children together, weddings, the union of families. I think it's important that gay marriage be recognized legally, and not merely gay "civil unions", because saying that gays are allowed to marry says a number of other things as well, such as: 1. It's ok for two people of the same gender to raise children together. Who could object to a married couple raising a child? 2. It's ok for two people of the same gender to have sex with each other. Who could object to a married couple having sex? 3. A gay relationship is a real relationship. Who could say that a marriage "isn't a real relationship"? 4. Attempting to breaking appart a married couple is wrong. It would be especially inconceivable to religious folk who consider marriage sacred to some degree. I think the counter would be, though, that currently marriage has religious connotations. Imagine a couple getting married...usually it would be a bride and a groom in a church. So we see that marriage, although technically not, is still viewed as a religious institution and should be respected as such. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:16 jeddus wrote: I find it kind of funny the most I hear against prop 8 (not necessarily on this board) is basically bashing people sticking to what would be their opinion or feeling (religious or otherwise)... but then there are guys like me who are fine if gays get the right to marry, marijuana is legalized, and a democrat sits as president even though I am extremely religious and quite conservative. I think people should be free to make their choices, and I have heard a million arguements for either side, and I personally feel people have better things to do with their time. I have chosen my life, I leave others to choose their. With that said, I respect Prop 8 being upheld. The people voted. They voted before. May next time they will vote differently. And when they do, I will respect that vote. You sound like a pretty awesome guy =). | ||
keV.
United States3214 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:49 travis wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:48 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain What right should not extend to all groups? The right to use letal force ? Prescribe medication ? etc... | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:29 D10 wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 13:49 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:48 travis wrote: On May 30 2009 13:32 DamageControL wrote: On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote: On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote: And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter. If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this. And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. No its not. legally it isn't, but morally I agree with aegraen ? please explain What right should not extend to all groups? The right to use letal force ? Prescribe medication ? etc... already said i was wrong and i wouldn't consider either of those rights so much as priveleges | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On the topic, its insane why marriage is even legislated, its like legislating baptism or other rituals. Whats next ? They will try to make us pray the same way ? | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 30 2009 14:56 JWD wrote: lol what happened to this thread...I cruised to page 15 and saw a debate over whether lesbians can fuck?? Ill give you the TLDR Agrean made a retarded bet. We proved him wrong. He refused to pay. | ||
LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
It's a tough issue though I think gays should be allowed the same marriage rights as straight people. I don't think a gay couple should be chosen over a straight couple, in adoption cases, but I doubt that will happen often as there are so many kids needing adoption. | ||
HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
Look beyond the particular issue. The people overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, should it be overturned by a judge? Everytime gay marriage goes before a popular vote, the people vote it down. The people have a right to self-determination above all else. Would you really trade democracy for oligarchy in order to win on a single issue? That is absolutely fucking retarded. Prop 8/gay marriage brings out the stupidity and ignorance of the populace with respect to knowledge of government, like nothing I've ever seen. If you really favor a small group of judges overturning an overwhelmingly popularly-voted piece of legislation, you are indeed subverting our democracy in favor of your single-issue obsession. Just remember, don't complain when the pendulum swings the other way, and democracy is subverted against your favorite political stance. Self-determination is the most important liberty. Respect it or lose it, | ||
Hans-Titan
Denmark1711 Posts
On May 30 2009 22:43 HeadBangaa wrote: The people overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, should it be overturned by a judge? Is 52 to 48 'overwhelming'? | ||
Elite00fm
United States548 Posts
On May 30 2009 22:43 HeadBangaa wrote: The people have spoken. Look beyond the particular issue. The people overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, should it be overturned by a judge? Everytime gay marriage goes before a popular vote, the people vote it down. The people have a right to self-determination above all else. Would you really trade democracy for oligarchy in order to win on a single issue? That is absolutely fucking retarded. Prop 8/gay marriage brings out the stupidity and ignorance of the populace with respect to knowledge of government, like nothing I've ever seen. If you really favor a small group of judges overturning an overwhelmingly popularly-voted piece of legislation, you are indeed subverting our democracy in favor of your single-issue obsession. Just remember, don't complain when the pendulum swings the other way, and democracy is subverted against your favorite political stance. Self-determination is the most important liberty. Respect it or lose it, Just because the majority of people vote for something, doesn't make it right. | ||
BlackJack
United States10301 Posts
On May 30 2009 22:43 HeadBangaa wrote: The people have spoken. Look beyond the particular issue. The people overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, should it be overturned by a judge? Everytime gay marriage goes before a popular vote, the people vote it down. The people have a right to self-determination above all else. Would you really trade democracy for oligarchy in order to win on a single issue? That is absolutely fucking retarded. Prop 8/gay marriage brings out the stupidity and ignorance of the populace with respect to knowledge of government, like nothing I've ever seen. If you really favor a small group of judges overturning an overwhelmingly popularly-voted piece of legislation, you are indeed subverting our democracy in favor of your single-issue obsession. Just remember, don't complain when the pendulum swings the other way, and democracy is subverted against your favorite political stance. Self-determination is the most important liberty. Respect it or lose it, A true democracy balances majority rule with minoritiy rights | ||
MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
And two parents will do it better right? If the gay parents just teach the children even from an early age that "some boys like boys and some like girls" etc. There should be no problem. Not all kinds raised by straight parents are straight. Gays should be able to marry. There is no real reason to NOT allow it. | ||
Cali
139 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 30 2009 22:43 HeadBangaa wrote: The people overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, should it be overturned by a judge? 1. They didn't vote for it overwhelmingly 2. Judicial deference is a shitty philosophy that leads to unproper laws. If prop 8 had been determined to be a revision then yes the judges would have had no choice but to overturn it. Everytime gay marriage goes before a popular vote, the people vote it down. The people have a right to self-determination above all else. Would you really trade democracy for oligarchy in order to win on a single issue? That is absolutely fucking retarded. Prop 8/gay marriage brings out the stupidity and ignorance of the populace with respect to knowledge of government, like nothing I've ever seen. If you really favor a small group of judges overturning an overwhelmingly popularly-voted piece of legislation, you are indeed subverting our democracy in favor of your single-issue obsession. Just remember, don't complain when the pendulum swings the other way, and democracy is subverted against your favorite political stance. Self-determination is the most important liberty. Respect it or lose it, Socrates became overwhelmingly disliked in Athens. They made him drink hemlock. Yay for democracy and self-determination...? | ||
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RaGe
Belgium9945 Posts
On May 30 2009 22:43 HeadBangaa wrote: The people have spoken. Look beyond the particular issue. The people overwhelmingly voted for prop 8, should it be overturned by a judge? Everytime gay marriage goes before a popular vote, the people vote it down. The people have a right to self-determination above all else. Would you really trade democracy for oligarchy in order to win on a single issue? That is absolutely fucking retarded. Prop 8/gay marriage brings out the stupidity and ignorance of the populace with respect to knowledge of government, like nothing I've ever seen. If you really favor a small group of judges overturning an overwhelmingly popularly-voted piece of legislation, you are indeed subverting our democracy in favor of your single-issue obsession. Just remember, don't complain when the pendulum swings the other way, and democracy is subverted against your favorite political stance. Self-determination is the most important liberty. Respect it or lose it, .... Are you retarded? So you think if California had a ballot right now wether or not to make all black people slaves again and it would win, it would be a fair decision? Remember, democracy was made to protect the rights of the people, not to give the people a way to violate other people's rights. Majority rules, but shouldn't be able to dominate the minority no matter what. Direct democracy fails in a lot of aspects, that's why most political systems were built in a complex way to prevent abuse like this. | ||
hubfub
Australia352 Posts
On May 30 2009 07:29 Fontong wrote: This is just funny...OP banned before even the 3rd response. However, I am against prop 8. I just don't get why people are so concerned that the institution of marriage will somehow be corrupted if people of the same gender are allowed to marry. Luckily, in the future California should only become more liberal as the conservative christians become old and die off. how can u tell some1 has been banned? | ||
L
Canada4732 Posts
Look at the history of the gay marriage issue in Canada: it was exclusively about the word marriage and not the legal status of the couples. That said, I don't really see why people are fighting for strong families; the institution itself has been obliterated in the past 40 years for economic reasons. Government needs to step out of the marriage arena completely. | ||
Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On May 30 2009 23:58 hubfub wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2009 07:29 Fontong wrote: This is just funny...OP banned before even the 3rd response. However, I am against prop 8. I just don't get why people are so concerned that the institution of marriage will somehow be corrupted if people of the same gender are allowed to marry. Luckily, in the future California should only become more liberal as the conservative christians become old and die off. how can u tell some1 has been banned? I believe the nuke icon indicates that ![]() On May 30 2009 23:18 Cali wrote: Court upheld it on the grounds of the lawsuit; that the voters have a right to change the Cali Constitution though a prop, which the lawsuits aimed at prop 8 was about. Doesn't mean they upheld anti-gay marriage, doesn't mean prop 8 can still be upheld, only means prop 8 stands against that lawsuit. Also means it can be changed by another prop in the future, also means the prop can be overturned in another lawsuit that doesn't aim at revisions of the constitution though props. This thread is pointless to that extent as that it talks nothing about that. This is typical of a TL thread about gay marriage. The Europeans come in bitching at why they "think gay marriage is acceptable and America is stupid for not allowing it" and then people come in trying to explain why gay's can raise children like single parents can, and then someone brings up the sacrament of marriage and it gets challenged by predating events, and then the discussion goes absolutely nowhere, and then the state goes against every "valid" argument posted in this thread as to why gay marriage is acceptable and upholds current policy or makes slight adjustments to accommodate gay marriage, without actually calling it that, or in some cases inhibiting abilities to obtain gay marriage rights. Here's a cool little timeline about gay marriage around the world if people want to view it: (looks like it dates from last Tuesday to the 1960's, as well as one entry from 1885) http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/05/26/f-same-sex-timeline.html | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
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Culture
Canada488 Posts
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brian
United States9616 Posts
On May 31 2009 00:13 Diomedes wrote: But the US constitution prevents the refusal of gay marriage. It's not about Europeans bitching. It's about Americans violating their 'holy' constitution. yeah i dont really see where equal protection to citizens is ambiguous. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 31 2009 02:46 Culture wrote: Twenty years from now the absurdity of the validness of gay marriage will seem as silly as a discussion about interracial marriage would seem now. It really is. If you have an grandparent from the south ask them what it was like living with segregation. Youll be surprised at how similar the thinking was to anti-gay marriage rhetoric. It wasnt that they hated blacks it was just that this was how it had always been done and if you integrated there might be adverse consequences. Turns out integrating blacks did not lead to the destruction of American society. It is hopeful to think that there was a time when a black president was as far fetched an idea as a gay president is now. Im betting I will live to see it happen. | ||
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
Personally, I don't feel the need to bash gay people. I do have a few friends who are gay and I do respect them. Yes, they are people too. Yet I do not understand why they need to use marriage as the official term between their partner? I feel that it's like WASP people going to a Islamic mosque and having a Muslim wedding? How would those in the mosque feel? Yeah, it would be okay for them if they lead a Muslim lifestyle afterward, but if they know they're just abusing the culture and religion obviously the Muslims are gonna have a problem with that? I feel that it's the same way for me. I as a Christian, maybe a very selfish Christian, feel that marriage was and still is a Christian way of expressing a union between a man and a woman. I'm totally fine if gay people would like to register their partnership or union, but stay away from my freaking religion and come up with your own damn term for a union. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 31 2009 03:14 jkillashark wrote: Why do gay people need to use a Biblical term (marriage) for a union for something so un-Biblical (Bible says homosexuality is an abomination)? Did you read the 11 times this has aready been addressed in this thread. A) Civil union and marriage are not the same thing in terms of federal benifits, state recognition, health insurance etc.. B) Even if they were exactly the same it would still be seperate but equal which as we all know is not equal. C) Marriage is not a biblical term "The word 'marriage' originates from 1297, from Old French mariage (12c.), from Vulgar Latin *maritaticum, from Latin maritatus, pp. of maritatre "to wed, marry, give in marriage". " Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081003094736AAOmExq D) Bible says allot of things. Anyway you dice it two people loving each other is the farthest thing you can have from an abomination. | ||
brian
United States9616 Posts
or it seems never was sweet lol separate but equal. how apropros | ||
brian
United States9616 Posts
Is it going to rely on the fact that sexual orientation is not a protected class? | ||
Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 31 2009 03:14 jkillashark wrote: I as a Christian, maybe a very selfish Christian, feel that marriage was and still is a Christian way of expressing a union between a man and a woman. I'm curious how you would account for the fact that non-christian cultures all over the world have marriages. Not to mention if your argument is for the word itself, it did not even have christian origins. | ||
D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On May 31 2009 03:25 Gene wrote: can someone break down to me unbiasedly the argument that this is not blatantly legalized discrmination? Is it going to rely on the fact that sexual orientation is not a protected class? The only real argument against same sex marriage is that there are a lot of people who think its wrong, many of those church goers with lot of influence, the worst group to buy a political beef with because they are zealots, and they think their enemies are the enemies of god. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On May 31 2009 04:24 Archerofaiur wrote: Someone should start a religion founded on the tenets of love and acceptancing others. Spiritualism - Background Spiritualism in its modern incarnation started in the mid-19th century in the United States, a syncretic adjunct of largely Christian population. It is often described as Christian due to an essentially Christian moral system, a perceived belief in the Judeo-Christian God and an afterlife similar to the concept of Heaven. Liturgical practices such as Sunday services and the singing of hymns are also evidence of a largely Christian influence. Traditional Spiritualists state that they are not necessarily Christians. While they view Jesus as a great teacher and likely a medium, they do not see belief in his teachings as required in order to enter the afterlife. (I kinda disagree on that he, but yea you necessarily need to treat him as something outwordly) Traditional Spiritualist beliefs are not generally viewed as orthodox Christian, and many people from other traditions and religions take the title Spiritualist. In the United Kingdom there are many Spiritualist Churches that are non-denominational and welcome anyone from any religion. However, Spiritualism is distinct from Spiritism and its offshoots, New Age movements that practise otherwise similar mediumship as channeling, and the broader concept of spirituality. Spiritualism also draws from the spiritual sects of Islam (Sufi), Judaism (Kabbalah) and Buddism. Some Spiritualists follow one distinct religion's practices while others pull elements from any or all of the three religions in addition to Buddism to formulate their beliefs. Some Spiritualist believe in the idea of the universe as the creator, and don't necessarily follow any specific religion. In any case, meditation usually play a large role in practices' of Spiritualists. Another major belief is that of spiritual guides that help the Spiritualist live a more moral life as well as to make everyday decisions. The guides are not necessarily angels though sometimes angels may be consulted, generally the guide is believed to be someone that was once human at least once and is now on the other side. The Kabbalists use the term maggid which means "teacher." The related word "Spiritism" has various usages: * Kardecist Spiritism — the specific body of spiritualist beliefs, especially significant in Brazil, originated by Allan Kardec * a pejorative synonym for Spiritualism used by its opponents such as some Christian churches * a largely archaic general term for belief systems involving In any aspect of Spiritualism, there is the core tenets of charity, accepting others and love. Science is also very much respected inside this philosophy as many of its practicioners and the founder are scientists | ||
DrTJEckleburg
United States1080 Posts
Strangely enough, the Romans, Greeks, and Sumerians even had marriage practices before the advent of Christianity. | ||
LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
However, I guess I go against the stereotype of Christians in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for the Christian Church. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Christians should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that God's kingdom is not of this world, and our goal should be to further this kingdom, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves Christians are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Christ exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's society (which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what Christianity is about. Or at least not something that people with an active relationship with God would do, because that's not what He is about. If you are a sold-out follower of Christ, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. | ||
LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On May 31 2009 03:14 jkillashark wrote: Why do gay people need to use a Biblical term (marriage) for a union for something so un-Biblical (Bible says homosexuality is an abomination)? Personally, I don't feel the need to bash gay people. I do have a few friends who are gay and I do respect them. Yes, they are people too. Yet I do not understand why they need to use marriage as the official term between their partner? I feel that it's like WASP people going to a Islamic mosque and having a Muslim wedding? How would those in the mosque feel? Yeah, it would be okay for them if they lead a Muslim lifestyle afterward, but if they know they're just abusing the culture and religion obviously the Muslims are gonna have a problem with that? I feel that it's the same way for me. I as a Christian, maybe a very selfish Christian, feel that marriage was and still is a Christian way of expressing a union between a man and a woman. I'm totally fine if gay people would like to register their partnership or union, but stay away from my freaking religion and come up with your own damn term for a union. Because marriage is the existing legal term for union and because its a legal term it should be secular. These gays wouldn't have to be married in a church they could be married in a court, but there should not be a separate legal term for homosexuals. | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:11 LaughingTulkas wrote: Oh, and I realize there is a lot of antipathy towards Christians on this board. I'm going ahead and putting myself out there. I hope there's a least some people who are willing to listen, even if I'm clearly a minority. I dont have a problem with Christians following what christianity is about (hint: loving thy neighbor). But oppressing gays is most definatly not what Jesus had in mind. | ||
benjammin
United States2728 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:07 LaughingTulkas wrote: First of all, I'll say I am a very devout Christian, in that I not only believe in God, but have an active relationship with Him. ![]() continue.. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:07 LaughingTulkas wrote: First of all, I'll say I am a very devout Christian, in that I not only believe in God, but have an active relationship with Him. However, I guess I go against the stereotype of Christians in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for the Christian Church. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Christians should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that God's kingdom is not of this world, and our goal should be to further this kingdom, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves Christians are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Christ exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's society (which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what Christianity is about. Or at least not something that people with an active relationship with God would do, because that's not what He is about. If you are a sold-out follower of Christ, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. Good post. | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:07 LaughingTulkas wrote: First of all, I'll say I am a very devout Christian, in that I not only believe in God, but have an active relationship with Him. You are either lying or mentally ill. Sure, one can argue that hypothetically a god can exist. But having an active relationship with the divine creator of everything has been scientifically established as being impossible. And everyone will instantly realize this when they read this comment. So I suggest you be aware of that next time. Also, you are wrong on the christian theology. There is really little ambiguity. Either you ignore the bible or you have to hold negative views on homosexuals. mod edit: user 2 day'd for this post | ||
Culture
Canada488 Posts
Let's replace the term Christianity with competitive bgh gameplay, and kingdom with Battle.net. Seems silly to us, doesn't it? The original seems just as silly to some atheists! First of all, I'll say I am a very devout bgher, in that I not only believe in high money, but have an active bnet account. However, I guess I go against the stereotype of bghers in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for pro korean starcraft. Nowhere in the sc manual is it stated that bghers should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them on TL. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that bnet is not of this world, and our goal should be to further our bnet record, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves bghers are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Chris Metzen exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's pro korean scene(which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what bghing is about. Or at least not something that people with an active bnet account would do, because that's not what Chris Metzen is about. If you are a sold-out BGHer, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. And by this I mean that being a 'moderate christian' is almost as bad as being a LDSer. You still use the same name, you form comradely with the radicals, in fact you serve as a power base for their nonsense like creationism or anti gay marriage proposals. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:59 Culture wrote: Hey, I'm an atheist but both you (dio) and I know that questioning religious views will hit a wall of apathy. Let's go from a rational perspective, he claims to have special evidence not available to us. Good for him, let's treat it as silly as believing that the world is flat. And IntoTheWow, that's not a good post. Let's replace the term Christianity with competitive bgh gameplay, and kingdom with Battle.net. Seems silly to us, doesn't it? The original seems just as silly to some atheists! Show nested quote + First of all, I'll say I am a very devout bgher, in that I not only believe in high money, but have an active bnet account. However, I guess I go against the stereotype of bghers in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for pro korean starcraft. Nowhere in the sc manual is it stated that bghers should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them on TL. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that bnet is not of this world, and our goal should be to further our bnet record, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves bghers are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Chris Metzen exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's pro korean scene(which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what bghing is about. Or at least not something that people with an active bnet account would do, because that's not what Chris Metzen is about. If you are a sold-out BGHer, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. And by this I mean that being a 'moderate christian' is almost as bad as being a LDSer. You still use the same name, you form comradely with the radicals, in fact you serve as a power base for their nonsense like creationism or anti gay marriage proposals. So he should go against his own beliefs just cause the people around him do evil with that? | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On May 31 2009 03:14 jkillashark wrote: Why do gay people need to use a Biblical term (marriage) for a union for something so un-Biblical (Bible says homosexuality is an abomination)? Personally, I don't feel the need to bash gay people. I do have a few friends who are gay and I do respect them. Yes, they are people too. Yet I do not understand why they need to use marriage as the official term between their partner? I feel that it's like WASP people going to a Islamic mosque and having a Muslim wedding? How would those in the mosque feel? Yeah, it would be okay for them if they lead a Muslim lifestyle afterward, but if they know they're just abusing the culture and religion obviously the Muslims are gonna have a problem with that? I feel that it's the same way for me. I as a Christian, maybe a very selfish Christian, feel that marriage was and still is a Christian way of expressing a union between a man and a woman. I'm totally fine if gay people would like to register their partnership or union, but stay away from my freaking religion and come up with your own damn term for a union. Marriage predates Christianity. People that are un-Christian, un-Biblical and un-religious are already using the term marriage. | ||
Culture
Canada488 Posts
On May 31 2009 06:06 IntoTheWow wrote: So he should go against his own beliefs just cause the people around him do evil with that? Hopefully he will, over a long period of education and enlightenment, realize that his beliefs are incorrect. | ||
KingPants
United States54 Posts
PS: The Supreme Court of the United States of America has stated that marriage is a right. http://supreme.justia.com/us/316/535/case.html | ||
seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:07 LaughingTulkas wrote: First of all, I'll say I am a very devout Christian, in that I not only believe in God, but have an active relationship with Him. However, I guess I go against the stereotype of Christians in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for the Christian Church. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Christians should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that God's kingdom is not of this world, and our goal should be to further this kingdom, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves Christians are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Christ exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's society (which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what Christianity is about. Or at least not something that people with an active relationship with God would do, because that's not what He is about. If you are a sold-out follower of Christ, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. Good post indeed. | ||
Diomedes
464 Posts
If he isn't lying then he must have hallucinations, hear voices, and that means he is in need of professional help. And besides that, his theology is quite heterodox. It is not supported by scripture. So his view on this issue must be personal revelations? He is some kind of 21th century prophet? I am sure he is likable and whatnot and he has the same conclusions I have. But this can just not be allowed to fly. | ||
funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
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Quesadilla
United States1814 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:07 LaughingTulkas wrote: First of all, I'll say I am a very devout Christian, in that I not only believe in God, but have an active relationship with Him. However, I guess I go against the stereotype of Christians in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for the Christian Church. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Christians should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that God's kingdom is not of this world, and our goal should be to further this kingdom, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves Christians are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Christ exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's society (which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what Christianity is about. Or at least not something that people with an active relationship with God would do, because that's not what He is about. If you are a sold-out follower of Christ, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. Dude this post was awesome. I'm on the same page. | ||
Pakje
Belgium288 Posts
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eMbrace
United States1300 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:07 LaughingTulkas wrote: First of all, I'll say I am a very devout Christian, in that I not only believe in God, but have an active relationship with Him. However, I guess I go against the stereotype of Christians in that I don't think issues like this should be an issue for the Christian Church. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Christians should try to control the ideology and actions of people around them. It quite clearly states, to the contrary, that God's kingdom is not of this world, and our goal should be to further this kingdom, not try to set up an earthly kingdom. It's very sad to me how many people who at least call themselves Christians are so far from the sort of love and gentleness that Christ exhibited. I may disagree with many things in today's society (which I think most can admit has major problems) but controlling the lives of others through social activism is most definitely NOT what Christianity is about. Or at least not something that people with an active relationship with God would do, because that's not what He is about. If you are a sold-out follower of Christ, then stuff like this is a temporary issue in a temporary world, and there are things with eternal significance that are what we should be about. Hey great post man. But just to explain the other Christian viewpoint on homosexuality -- well, there's that part in the bible that strongly implies that it should not be tolerated. im not a bible expert, i just hear people bringing up the part of the Old Testament about killing gays =/ | ||
Kennigit
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Canada19447 Posts
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ForTheSwarm
United States556 Posts
On May 31 2009 06:12 Liquid`NonY wrote: Show nested quote + On May 31 2009 03:14 jkillashark wrote: Why do gay people need to use a Biblical term (marriage) for a union for something so un-Biblical (Bible says homosexuality is an abomination)? Personally, I don't feel the need to bash gay people. I do have a few friends who are gay and I do respect them. Yes, they are people too. Yet I do not understand why they need to use marriage as the official term between their partner? I feel that it's like WASP people going to a Islamic mosque and having a Muslim wedding? How would those in the mosque feel? Yeah, it would be okay for them if they lead a Muslim lifestyle afterward, but if they know they're just abusing the culture and religion obviously the Muslims are gonna have a problem with that? I feel that it's the same way for me. I as a Christian, maybe a very selfish Christian, feel that marriage was and still is a Christian way of expressing a union between a man and a woman. I'm totally fine if gay people would like to register their partnership or union, but stay away from my freaking religion and come up with your own damn term for a union. Marriage predates Christianity. People that are un-Christian, un-Biblical and un-religious are already using the term marriage. Agreed. In fact, many so-called "Christian" terms/traditions predate the bible. Those meddling Pagans! | ||
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:11 LaughingTulkas wrote: Oh, and I realize there is a lot of antipathy towards Christians on this board. I'm going ahead and putting myself out there. I hope there's a least some people who are willing to listen, even if I'm clearly a minority. you're not a minority, just delusional or retarded. theres lots of people like that. how exactly do you have an active relationship with god? | ||
Kennigit
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Canada19447 Posts
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