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On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia.
So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who?
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On May 30 2009 13:04 scwizard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:03 DamageControL wrote:On May 30 2009 13:00 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:58 Mindcrime wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote:
No one if forcing your belief system.
Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? The Golden Rule? Golden rule is philosophical, not logical. Uh....philosophy is based on logic. Some philosophy is based on logic. Some philosophy critiques logic (such as Kant *barf*)
Kant is great. Great as in he contributed a lot to the field of philosophy like it or not.
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On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who?
You're being disingenuous, switching between is and ought; I think most people in this thread are concerned with ought, not is
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On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who?
no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have.
edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide.
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On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side?
It is a right, just because you can convolute an issue doesn't mean I have to waste my time.
It is a right of passage for two people demonstrating there loyality and commitment inside of all societies. Period.
I am a biggot, people who think gay people do not deserve x right or y right are disgusting trash.
I have no problem thinking biggots are garage, guess what I also hate racist biggots and sexist biggots too.
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is awesome32282 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:05 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:02 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote:
No one if forcing your belief system.
Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? You see, a belief starts with an axiom. From there everything it's obtained due to logic (With the help of data, historical data in this case). Why do you think all religions base themselves on documents, historical data and logical arguments so much? Because they can ignore it while it's not there (Due to their axioms). But once religion goes against logic, it must change it's paradigm, or die against it. What? Faith is antithetical to logic. Religion is built upon faith. So, I guess jonah and the whale, adam and eve, jesus ressurecting, are all built upon logical arguements, historical data, and documentation of events.
Now you are being stupid and taking parable in a literal sense...
Religion is based in faith, and from them there from logic. The same way every science needs a base to stand on, and from there build it's paradigm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom
Math, Physics, chemistry, nothing would exist without axioms.
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On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? The difference is whether something is morally arbitrary or not. Age is not a morally arbitrary barrier (although perhaps WHEN we qualify "adulthood" is) Gender is. Polygamy might be, I could go both ways on that.
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Its funny how you guys use the "line drawing" phrase to justify torture too.
"Oh well if we cant drown people then that means we cant put people in jail. We have to draw the line somewhere."
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On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage
minor exceptions? you mean like not counting as married if you decide to move states?
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On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide.
If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual.
I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots!
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On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage
pretty good reason.
also, prop 8 was to take away their right, not to introduce it.
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On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:
lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else.
stopped reading there
You are an ignorant fool.
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On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual.
No, children don't have the same ability to consent that adults do.
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On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots!
being a pedophile isn't illegal, molesting children is.
see the difference?
also prop 8 was forcing the christian view of marriage on everyone else, not the other way around.
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On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage
I think me and you, are the only ones who see this.
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On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote:On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:13 Aegraen wrote:
#2 I have no problem with Civil Unions. However, Marriage is strictly between a man and a woman. Please provide any rational justification for this statement. #3 Do homosexuals want marriage, because of the benefits it bestows (Which they can all ready get from civil unions, or other ways outside of marriage such as Power of Attorney), or because they want to impose their views on society. It's obviously the latter. This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion?
Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word"
So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it.
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On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote:I think me and you, are the only ones who see this.
yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about.
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On May 30 2009 13:21 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. No, children don't have the same ability to consent that adults do.
Nor do most adults. Consent has a lot to do with maturity. The arbitrary age of 18 isn't a magical period of, now they can consent, before they can't. What reasoning do you bring for the age of 18? In ancient rome adulthood was, what 13 or 14? (I forget the exact age, though I know it is young). In many cultures it is 12 or 13.
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EPT
