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On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about.
Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready.
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And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter.
If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this.
And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things
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On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready.
Why shouldn't they get all?
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On May 30 2009 13:22 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots! being a pedophile isn't illegal, molesting children is. see the difference? also prop 8 was forcing the christian view of marriage on everyone else, not the other way around.
You mean the universal religious view of marriage?
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I support the court's decision to uphold the will of the voters and the power the people have to amend the state's constitution. If the court had ruled otherwise, it would be the most ridiculous court decision ever.
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On May 30 2009 13:27 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready. Why shouldn't they get all?
I'm not saying they should, however they should in a civil union, not marriage.
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On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage
Uh...ok first of all no it's not.
Second who cares what it is? What's wrong with normalizing homosexuality? Did they do something wrong, is there something innately better about "traditional" family values? Have you noticed saying "traditional" is a much nicer-sounding way of say "bigot"? The KKK defended their position on racism by declaring their values "traditional" and protecting "traditional anglo-saxon values" much the same way we seem to be protecting traditional christian values here.
By the law creating a distinction they encourage separation between gays and straights. It's actually a good thing to normalize.
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On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote:
And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter.
If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this.
And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things
Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups.
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On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready.
they already had it.
prop 8 was about removing it.
you keep on talking about them imposing their beleifs on everyone else when it was the other way around.
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On May 30 2009 13:27 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:22 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:19 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:10 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:08 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:04 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 12:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Well what a shocker.
After 15 pages, I found out that nearly everybody worth respecting on teamliquid isn't a discriminating biggot and alot of people who I've never seen post before are biggots.
I can't believe in this day and age that you guys actually still don't realize that withholding civil rights from people holds ALL of us back.
While your at it go call a blackman a boy, a chinese girl yellowtang and spit on a cripple.
Some of you are just flat out sickening =(. /sigh Marriage is not a right. You have to acknowledge other groups of people when you go down this road. Are you going to accuse yourself of what you are accusing those against gay-marriage? (Favoring of one group, over another). If marriage is a right, then are you going to be on the polygamists side, or NAMBLA's side? you have the right to vote, but you can't vote when you're young and you can't vote several times. even if it's a right there are restrictions to it. don't try making it look like same sex marriage is advocating pedophelia. So, then using your arguement, then marriage has restrictions, and that line is draw at gay-marriage. You apparently, draw the line elsewhere. This leads to, who decides where to draw the line then? If not the majority then who? no you draw the line on a completly different axis, sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have. edit: better phrasing would be that gender shouldn't decide. If we were to assume marriage is a right then, and you said sexual preference shouldn't decide what rights you have, then pedophilia should be legal right? After all, it is consensual. I'm not being disingenious at all, I'm try to see if people actually really believe what they are saying by applying their view universally, or whether or not, they are trying to justify their belief on only one group of people, because they view those opposing as bigots, and surely, they are not bigots! being a pedophile isn't illegal, molesting children is. see the difference? also prop 8 was forcing the christian view of marriage on everyone else, not the other way around. You mean the universal religious view of marriage?
Universal?? Since when?
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On May 30 2009 13:26 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:24 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 13:22 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:18 2b-Rigtheous wrote:lol. It amuses me that people actually believe that this is a matter of individual rights. Prop 8 is nothing more than an attempt to normalize homosexuality, that's all it is, nothing else. Homosexuals already have the same rights (with a few minor exceptions) in a domestic partnership, it's not about rights!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage I think me and you, are the only ones who see this. yes, you and he both ignore what prop 8 was about. Obtaining every benefit of marriage, was a goal, the goal is to normalize their behavior in society. It's painfully obvious, when they have most if not all the same benefits as those married all ready.
You realize prop 8 outlaws gay marriage, so this was initiated by people against gay marriage, right?
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is awesome32280 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:14 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:05 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:02 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 30 2009 12:56 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:53 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 30 2009 12:47 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 12:47 IntoTheWow wrote:
No one if forcing your belief system.
Catholicism is based on understanding. So why should the other one's beliefs make you feel any wrong. As long as your beliefs are are respected, i don't see why YOU should force the rest to do what YOU believe. Homosexuality in catholicism is a sin. A sin is very, very bad. You clearly have not been instructed on catholicism lol. Though catholicism encourages their followers to spread the word of Jesus, they do respect other views. They do try to spread their beliefs, but with the support of logic (something you reject it seems), that's why the words of Thomas Aquinas are so important. Catholicism believes that if you didn't come to face the true of their beliefs by your own means, you are free of sin (short version of you "won't go to hell"). It only becomes a sin if you believe/know about it and choose to ignore it. keyword: choice. Wait, so you are saying they are trying to spread the word of the bible with logic? Exactly, what parts of the bible are known for their use of logic? You see, a belief starts with an axiom. From there everything it's obtained due to logic (With the help of data, historical data in this case). Why do you think all religions base themselves on documents, historical data and logical arguments so much? Because they can ignore it while it's not there (Due to their axioms). But once religion goes against logic, it must change it's paradigm, or die against it. What? Faith is antithetical to logic. Religion is built upon faith. So, I guess jonah and the whale, adam and eve, jesus ressurecting, are all built upon logical arguements, historical data, and documentation of events. Now you are being stupid and taking parable in a literal sense... Religion is based in faith, and from them there from logic. The same way every science needs a base to stand on, and from there build it's paradigm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AxiomMath, Physics, chemistry, nothing would exist without axioms.
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On May 30 2009 13:23 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote:On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:17 JWD wrote:
[quote]
Please provide any rational justification for this statement.
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This statement is so absurd It's hardly worth addressing. How does getting married (an intimate rite between you, your spouse, and your closest family and friends) "impose views on society"? What the fuck does that even mean? Are you suggesting that, by marrying, gays are trying to tell people to be gay? When you get married, are you going to see it as some sort of social commentary?? Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions. ...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word" So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it.
i'm a barbarian because i asked wether marriage must be allowed by a religion?
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On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote:
And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter.
If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this.
And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups.
Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population
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On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote:
And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter.
If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this.
And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups.
No its not.
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On May 30 2009 13:31 Nadagast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 13:26 D10 wrote:
And btw, what the hell does gay marriage has to do with pephilia, poligamia and zoophilia or anything else for that matter.
If law can be as specific as to how much %of a substance you can trow in the air it can be specific in this.
And marriage being between 2 consenting HUMAN adults is nothing far fetched or that suggests base for none of those things Because a right is universal to all groups, not specific groups. Is voting a right? I'm pretty sure we don't let felons vote, right? Not making any moral equivalences, just saying, rights aren't necessarily shared by 100% of the population
felons have their rights removed because they commited a crime, this isn't a fair comparison by any standard.
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On May 30 2009 13:30 jeppew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 13:23 D10 wrote:On May 30 2009 09:36 jeppew wrote:On May 30 2009 09:34 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:32 travis wrote:On May 30 2009 09:30 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:27 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:26 Aegraen wrote:On May 30 2009 09:23 JWD wrote:On May 30 2009 09:21 Aegraen wrote:
[quote]
Because they can get all the benefits that a married couple has with civil unions.
...except being married. Unless you think marriage is worthless? Marriage is between a man and a woman, period. They aren't losing out on anything that a married couple has. Marriage is sacreligious. Even though I'm agnostic I can at least recognize this. I have no problems with civil unions. It's a contract with the state for explicit benefits. I'm fine with that. Marriage, however I am not. Thank you for regurgitating your original claims instead of addressing my point or answering my question. I'm going to stop debating with you now, because you show no interest in backing your claims. I answered your question. You don't think marriage is between a man and a woman, I do. Therefor see them trying to impose their ideological views on the church, and anyone who disagrees with them on the history, and name of marriage. If its state benefits they are after they have those all ready. What do homosexuals really want? Ask yourself this. And since when does 1 religion define institutions in this country? Sorry buddy, but neither the U.S.A. nor marriage belong to Christianity. What do homosexuals really want? Equal rights. fucking duh Marriage is not a right. The benefits that you get when you are married, you get in a civil union. Tell me, what do married couples have that those in civil unions don't have. Not sure if you know this, but name a religion that allows 'gay' marriage. Islam? Ha! funny. They'll kill you if you're gay. Buddhism? Hinduism? it has to be a religion? Once I walked into a spiritualist church and the priest started the lecture by saying "theres nothing against gay people in the holy word" So yep, you have limited your thoughts so much that you have become like a barbarian that never leaving your island think the world doesnt go anywhere beyond it. i'm a barbarian because i asked wether marriage must be allowed by a religion?
You are a barbarian becaouse you had to ask
And Aegraen, yep its a right universal to all groups, of 2 adult human beings.
Seriously, you are a pedophile, play the devil advocate's here and tell me how would you make the argument that because any group of 2 adult human beings being able to marry that would theoretically extend that right to groups bigger than 2 people or children or animals, explain.
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DAMN jeppew, I was not refering to you in the barbarian responde, damn quotes messing up with my replys
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If civil unions provided the SAME EXACT benefits that marriages did AND was recognized by the entire nation, you would hear less uproar.
Some gays are crazy, I'm sure they love nothing more than going to war with the one thing that has kept them under a microscope their whole lives (religion) fighting endlessly for the word "marriage."
If the fight was honestly just for the word marriage, then I would tell them to shut it too. However, that is not the case.
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EPT
