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On November 13 2008 15:55 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 15:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Players with mid apm seem to be the ones that dominated though like Savior and Oov. i don't see the correlation, especially since players like nada, bisu, xellos, flash, jaedong, etc. are all way faster than the average pro savior and oov are exceptions
Forgot to add that I wasnt really serious about what i wrote. I sometimes wondered before that if you played like at the speed of jaedong that it would hurt your decision making because you would be so busy doing everything but seeing jaedong's zvp series vs kal in the msl final proved me wrong. Actually iI first started wondering about that because of Oov and Savior. How they were much slower than the avg pros but were the most dominant. I thought maybe their slower speed allowed them to have better decision making. As the level of sc gets higher the less important mechanics become because everyone has similiarly good mechanics and its the game sense and decision making that separated everyone. Chobo theory crafting 
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On November 13 2008 15:36 freelander wrote:lol no look at the blizzcon replays where he played and had like 260
Nal_rA used to be really slow in 2003ish. He was around 130-170 apm.
But he sped up considerably later on, sometimes above 250 average.
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At least I'm faster than lots of pros ._.! Not better though.
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United States2186 Posts
From a large selection of oov replays,he seems to average from 190 (rare)-290 (also rare). 240-260 is the general average in tournament games, with some micro games being higher and some lower.
Boxer is in no way at 200 consistently, *maybe* in 1999 he was but anytime into his dominating phase and beyond he was much higher. 300 would be more like his average. In the replay pack of him vs Lx he's 290-310 generally, with a few rare ones dipping to mid 250s. And his TvZ will be a lot higher; not sure about TvP.
Savior is slower slightly and rarely goes above 260, while dropping more frequently to 200-210. Average would be 220-260 I'd say, although granted I did not look at ZvZ where it might be higher. This includes games from 1.14
rA is around 240-60 average, although the sample size of 8-9 games is smaller than the others and he does drop to 220 in a few.
Zerg sure does require mass apm. July is 300-350 easily, and sometimes goes above in his micro crazy games. Jaedong is a consistent 350-400 in the admittedly few replays I have of him, but it sure shows in his mechanics, which are by far the best Zerg has ever seen. It may not match up to Nada's consistent 400-450 apm, at least in TvZ, (it 'only' drops to 350-400 in TvT, still wtf?) but it's still crazy fast.
oov is by far the lowest terran and it showed in his awful mechanics lol. Well he got better in 05-06 or so, so I can't make fun of him too much for it, but his mechanics in his bonjwa phase were so terrible. I can't say for sure that Savior is the lowest successful Zerg (Gorush might compare), but he was very efficient and well organized, so his mechanics were still rather decent. There is no relationship between bonjwas/low apm (since Boxer/Nada are both above 300), but oov/savior are both slow and strategical players. You can certainly make an argument for bonjwas being strategical players, since 3/4 fit that bill successfully!
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Well boxer when he dominated was slower. Nada was the only exception.
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The varying APM comes down to their different playstyles, whether they want to overwhelm opponents with blinding fast mechanics and take advantage of slip ups on the opponent's part, or play an efficient, smart game. This is the reasons I don't judge people's skill based on their APM.
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On November 13 2008 15:11 Superiorwolf wrote:
savior is pretty low but zerg doesn't nearly require as much 400 apm that terrans do. savior is like 200-250 afaik.
Savior is about 230+ in every single replay i have of him.
On November 13 2008 15:28 PH wrote:
Boxer is in the 200 range i believe. Stork plays in the 250-300ish range, even Best is only slightly faster than Stork.
savior is famous for his low APM play, though....I don't understand how he can do that...efficiency to the extreme.
Boxer has always had high apm, when bwchart was released boxer averaged around 250apm.
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United States17042 Posts
On November 13 2008 16:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 15:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 13 2008 15:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Players with mid apm seem to be the ones that dominated though like Savior and Oov. i don't see the correlation, especially since players like nada, bisu, xellos, flash, jaedong, etc. are all way faster than the average pro savior and oov are exceptions Forgot to add that I wasnt really serious about what i wrote. I sometimes wondered before that if you played like at the speed of jaedong that it would hurt your decision making because you would be so busy doing everything but seeing jaedong's zvp series vs kal in the msl final proved me wrong. Actually iI first started wondering about that because of Oov and Savior. How they were much slower than the avg pros but were the most dominant. I thought maybe their slower speed allowed them to have better decision making. As the level of sc gets higher the less important mechanics become because everyone has similiarly good mechanics and its the game sense and decision making that separated everyone. Chobo theory crafting
I think that a lot of people would say that you have the same amount of time to make decisions, no matter how fast your hands are moving. Also, at their skill level, the decision making feels like it just comes from many many games, and not so much on the fly theorying- the decisions are already "there".
At the level I play (sucking) the faster the hands are, the slower my decision making is. If I played more games that probably wouldn't be the case though.
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On November 13 2008 15:11 Superiorwolf wrote:
savior is pretty low but zerg doesn't nearly require as much 400 apm that terrans do. savior is like 200-250 afaik.
To be played optimally, zerg requires more apm than terran
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On November 13 2008 17:03 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 16:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On November 13 2008 15:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 13 2008 15:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Players with mid apm seem to be the ones that dominated though like Savior and Oov. i don't see the correlation, especially since players like nada, bisu, xellos, flash, jaedong, etc. are all way faster than the average pro savior and oov are exceptions Forgot to add that I wasnt really serious about what i wrote. I sometimes wondered before that if you played like at the speed of jaedong that it would hurt your decision making because you would be so busy doing everything but seeing jaedong's zvp series vs kal in the msl final proved me wrong. Actually iI first started wondering about that because of Oov and Savior. How they were much slower than the avg pros but were the most dominant. I thought maybe their slower speed allowed them to have better decision making. As the level of sc gets higher the less important mechanics become because everyone has similiarly good mechanics and its the game sense and decision making that separated everyone. Chobo theory crafting I think that a lot of people would say that you have the same amount of time to make decisions, no matter how fast your hands are moving. Also, at their skill level, the decision making feels like it just comes from many many games, and not so much on the fly theorying- the decisions are already "there". At the level I play (sucking) the faster the hands are, the slower my decision making is. If I played more games that probably wouldn't be the case though.
Yeah i feel that way too
I realized I was looking at it from my perspective(chobo T_T) where when i try to play faster it affects my decision making.
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On November 13 2008 17:07 TheFlashyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 15:11 Superiorwolf wrote:
savior is pretty low but zerg doesn't nearly require as much 400 apm that terrans do. savior is like 200-250 afaik. To be played optimally, zerg requires more apm than terran
To move 3 groups of mnm you have to 1(rightclick)2(rightclick)3(rightclick) then 1t2t3a Thats 12 actions, just to move stimmed rines/medic 1 time........
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you don't even have enough hotkeys to move an entire late-game zerg army at once... plus you can't use location hotkeys to macro.
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Yes you can with zerg
For example on blue storm you can put a lot of hatches around the min only and f2 it and the rest you can use hotkeys.
f2 control+larvae sz 4sz5sz6szs7sz8sz?
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wtf ? 250 apm is slow :O ? sAviOr and oov had gosu macro and micro what to they need more ?
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Russian Federation386 Posts
The slowest well-known pro gamers of today that I could remember:
Stork, Sea. Yea, thats it. I don't know ForGG's APM, but from his TvZ FPVOD I've seen he's about 300.
Xellos is pretty slow too, actually. Despite his 350 APM his EAPM is really low, like 150 (from recent reps vs Nada). He just spams too much.
Flash has 300 APM with 230+ EAPM, Mind has 280+ APM with 230+ EAPM, Bisu has 290+ APM with 220+ EAPM, JaeDong has 350+ APM with 230+ EAPM - those guys are very fast O_O.
Well, about Savior... he used to have 220-260 APM with 180+ EAPM, but his blizzcon games show incredible speed up to 280+ APM with 200+ EAPM, so I guess he can't be considered slow anymore.
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On November 13 2008 16:12 only_human89 wrote:
I have 250-300 apm and I still suck. My mechanics are very poor unfortunately TT.
then maybe you should slow down a little 
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There seems to be a lot of information in this thread that seems to be conflicting >_>
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He's not a progamer, I think he might have been an amateur, but Kouros[Fou] is a terran with about 130-170 apm who is extremely good. Check him out.
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On November 13 2008 18:16 eX-Corgh wrote:
The slowest well-known pro gamers of today that I could remember:
Stork, Sea. Yea, thats it. I don't know ForGG's APM, but from his TvZ FPVOD I've seen he's about 300.
Sea got 300~ apm in his blizzcon games.
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The return of the apm threads?
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EPT
