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Ok, this is a theory I came up with while in the shower, so it must be good!
I'm sure you're all aware that when you finish a lair or hive, you gain a larva, right? What about using this to BUY larvae?
Zerg economics is unique and complex in that it's all about larvae management, specifically on whether to make a drone or military unit, but broadly: all your units are made by larvae, and all of your buildings then are made from larvae too. The longer a game goes, the more larvae you have. If you let your larvae go to three, you potentially miss a larvae development cycle, and thus lose a larva. Efficient builds are efficient for zerg when they best use larvae, when to make drones, when to make units, when to expo, when to make a hatch in your base, whether it's better to make a static defense structure and lose a drone or a military unit, etc.
My theory is: A hatchery cost 300 minerals and takes 120 seconds to build, and you lose a drone, so you then have 8 fewer minerals times however many seconds it takes for a drone to bring minerals from a block to your hatchery times the amount of times this could happen over the course of the game. A lair costs 150 minerals and 100 gas, takes 100 seconds to build, and you lose no drone. For half the immediate cost in minerals, along with a third the cost of the hatchery in gas you "buy" a larva. The building also has more hp and allows you to get more tech, keeping it alive longer and if you lose your main lair/hive you have a backup one already at lair-stage, but these are just bonuses, not something the theory strives for. Now, you lose gas by this but gain minerals, and gain a larva which never would have been produced otherwise, on top of still having an extra larva you wouldn't have had if you had made a hatchery (the drone). To put it into the perspective of terran and protoss, it would be like spending 100 minerals and 67 gas to make your factory able to produce two tanks at the same time for one time only, or spending 75 minerals and 50 gas to make one gateway able to produce two dragoons at the same time for one time only. For protoss and terran, this would give you one extra unit, ie you would be buying time, because you'd spend money to gain a unit in the same timeframe. Time, like larvae, is finite, so being able to buy it (or a larva) is allowing you to buy something you normally couldn't get otherwise. It's a bit more complex with zerg though. Imagine if you spend 150 minerals and 100 gas to get a lair with your nat hatch while your main already is a lair. You gain a larva. This larva could be 2 zerglings, or one hydra, which could be one lurker, etc. This means that you've spent money to increase the total possible amount of units you could have at a certain point. More units in the same amount of time, that is by definition, efficient. Imagine though, that you spend that extra larva on a drone instead of another unit. This means, that if you lose a drone to making a hatchery, static defense, or some upgrade or technology building, you have another drone to make up for it. If you need to make a hatchery, by making a lair you gain a drone, so making another hatchery hurts less because you don't lose mining speed, you have the same amount of drones as before you made that hatchery. If you don't have to use that drone immediately, you're now gaining 8 minerals every whatever-amount-of-seconds. After however many cycles of this, you've already not only paid for that missing 150 minerals, but you're gaining minerals. You could even say you're gaining gas, because you could put another drone on gas of a new expo sooner, because you have that extra drone already available for mining, so after a certain amount of time, you've completely paid off the money you spent on that lair to gain a larva, and are now getting more money in the same amount of time, definitively efficient.
In starcraft, all the little things add up over the course of a game. Two more lings makes a big difference over time, even if by itself it seems to make no or little of a difference. It's harder to see as the game goes on longer, and more units are involved, but when you look at low-eco games, you can easily see how the difference of one larva could change the outcome of a game, and these same things work just the same in a longer game, even if it's harder to see. Sometimes you follow a game and you have no idea how one guy won, because he was losing the entire game until he suddenly just wins. Just a matter of who made better decisions and/or was more efficient in the end.
How this could be useful: You're able to use all of your larvae, and are mining at such a rate that the amount of money leftover after using all larvae at all hatcheries is increasing. You feel the need to either make another hatchery or expo, because presumably you won't need a surplus of money in the near future, and want to be able to spend that money. Often, players just go ahead and make another hatchery, often in their base. This accomplishes losing a drone and gaining no minerals, but it gives the player more larvae than they would have by that time. Often I see players add hatches when they don't really need to, or won't be able to support that many hatcheries in the near future. Possibly their money goes high as they're teching, but as soon as they hit hive tech or something they'll have plenty to spend it on, and those extra larvae will just sit and be wasted. If instead of, or possibly to complement getting a new hatchery, players make lairs at all of their current hatcheries, they'd gain larvae to spend their money on without gaining more larvae than they can support. It'll cost money to do so, but if they need to spend money, why not be super-efficient in the process, and give yourself more larvae to spend money on, which according to my theory would pay off in the end anyway?
The theory isn't perfect, and perhaps its application is far less effective than I've made it out to be, but I think it's worth consideration atleast.
I think it probably can be useful in a game, but that you'd still need to learn when to use it and when not to, like all things in sc. Might be awkward to try and teach yourself the correct timing and scenarios when to use it, but imo it'd be worth it once you "mastered" it.
Also you can build hives later, it should still pay off given a long enough game or something.
Ok, comments/feedback etc, go!
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No way is that worth it.
(Better way to spend shower time is to think of a cure for cancer)
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Sorry but this idea is basically retarded.
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Not worth it, just buy another hatchery.
EDIT: even if you are convinced making a hatch a lair is more efficient, its not, because you build hatcheries to expand to other bases, making a lair doesn't allow you to mine at a long distance or anything..
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It seems plausible that in very few cases, losing 100 gas like this would be ok, but I really don't know when. I guess if you are going for a risky double lair strategy to get a quick drop, you can at least console yourself by saying that you got a free larva out of it! 
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I dont like the idea, but the important thing is, might as well make sure you only have 2 larvae when your lair finishes
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United States42794 Posts
Paying 150/100 for an extra larva does justify itself if that's the only way to make larva because the potential income of the drone that larva makes is limitless. However when compared to the 300 paid for potentially limitless larva, each of which can provide limitless income it dwindles into insignificance.
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horray something to argue for my dual lair
quick drop + fast hive strat effectiveness
muahah~
because the defiler puts the D in DOOM drop
kekekee
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Sorry, I don't think that works. Yes, you immediately gain a larva when you morph a Lair, but think about all the larvae you're losing by not getting an additional hatchery.
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United States42794 Posts
One thing you haven't considered is going a second lair at some hatch they know you have but you know they won't scan. If you time it so the second lair finishes at the same time queens nest finishes and then hive that then they'll be very confused by your lack of hive when they scan. Mindgames etc.
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But you can't always use all the new larvae you get from other hatches, and you can't always expo with a hatch, and you can't always afford to lose a drone. So for those scenarios, I suggest my theory.
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I dont think the game mechanic is high enough that things like this matters.
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The main thing I like about the idea is the extra health a hatch gets when it becomes a lair. What is it, 1000ish to 1800? That's a big meat shield. If you know that the enemy is pushing and that you just need a few extra seconds to get forces to repel an attack, but the hatch will go down before you can stop them, why not upgrade to lair? Obviously there are better ways to spend your money, though. Maybe instead of spending that 150/100 on the lair, you could have spent it on some earlier units.
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The theory mostly assumes you have money and can support all the larvae you already have, it's obviously very situational, but I think it definitely can be useful.
FastEddieV, people normally already do that with hatches that are low on hp, I don't think it's practical to make all your hatches lairs JUST for the hp boost.
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i think this would work if you made a build around this. like maybe, as your doing 3 hatch mutas you time it so that you can get 2 lairs the instant your spire finishes and gain 2 extra muta (11 muta, which is pretty good with an ovy)
huh huh?
edit: or maybe you can get 2 drones at those hatcheries just moments before it finishes and the 2 lairs will bring you back to 9?
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I like that thinking, exactly what I mean!
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On July 05 2008 11:12 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
i think this would work if you made a build around this. like maybe, as your doing 3 hatch mutas you time it so that you can get 2 lairs the instant your spire finishes and gain 2 extra muta (11 muta, which is pretty good with an ovy)
huh huh?
edit: or maybe you can get 2 drones at those hatcheries just moments before it finishes and the 2 lairs will bring you back to 9?
That wouldn't really work seeing as a typical 3 hatch muta build gives you just enough gas for 9 mutas, and getting a second lair would give you even less gas. You could get your gas earlier to compensate but if you're going to sacrifice minerals that way you might as well just get a 4th hatch.
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On July 05 2008 11:12 Nightmarjoo wrote:
The theory mostly assumes you have money and can support all the larvae you already have, it's obviously very situational, but I think it definitely can be useful.
FastEddieV, people normally already do that with hatches that are low on hp, I don't think it's practical to make all your hatches lairs JUST for the hp boost.
Im suprised he doesn't know the HP of the main building for the race he plays, but its 1250, and if anything i would morph the extra hatcheries to lairs at expoes, FOR the meat shield part, that extra health could give you the extra time you need to save your expo. I'm still not convinced the larvae part would be worth it, if you can support all your hatcheries already then just make a new hatchery instead at an expo(s) rather than making lairs/hives, the only time i think ive made 2+ lairs/hives is when i try to get immediate drop capabilities, upgrading ovie speed and loading ability simultaneously for a fast drop, which i've done very few times. also, making lairs/hives is just as much an investment as making a new hatchery(not talking about resource wise), this one larvae won't be available for like 2 minutes, and while your using resources in lairs your enemy is probably outmacroing you. there are many circumstances but in almost every one of them i wouldnt say its worth it.
ex.
extra larvae trick = 188 second wait for a hydralisk that costs 225/125
regular way = 28 second wait for a hydralisk that costs 75/25
if you can support all your hatcheries this would be mid-late game lets assume? you will be trying to tech to ultra/ling/defiler/guard/devour/etc which would take even longer to make that unit, meanwhile your enemy is making mass arcs >1 minute 10 seconds with his extra cash.
Overall nice idea but i dont think it would be effective
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go try it. all this arguing at the moment is useless unless you test it.
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So basicall you get a REALLY expensive ultralisk/hydralisk/zergling
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It might be a really expensive ling, but it's a ling you wouldn't normally have without losing a drone.
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you gain an extra drone when you can build one less sunken than normal, i think that sounds better than getting another lair
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On July 05 2008 11:58 anotak wrote:
go try it. all this arguing at the moment is useless unless you test it.
I don't think its worth the time to test it, you can check how long it takes for certain buildings and units to morph and you know how much they cost so doing it mathematically is pretty acurate. Also the chances we will find a good opportunity in a game to do this experiment are quite low.
On July 05 2008 12:19 Nightmarjoo wrote:
It might be a really expensive ling, but it's a ling you wouldn't normally have without losing a drone.
yes but you won't have the minerals to do this until late game, during which losing one drone to make a building doesn't really affect the outcome of the match anyways
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Calgary25980 Posts
I didn't read the thread, but this idea is absurd. Like you are basically insane for considering this.
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EPT
