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Korea (South)17174 Posts
In regards to StarCraft SuperStars tournament and artosis's post here:
On October 13 2007 06:07 Artosis3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2007 22:57 Rekrul wrote:
daniel i know you are probably going to read this, even though you probably don't value my opinion:
all the players in this line up have absolutely no talent except assem unless you're being forced to do this by estro... taking them is a terribly bad idea how do you think assem got his "talent"? through PRACTICE. you got a free shot at progaming because of who your friends were. we now have a tournament where some of us who really want it can earn it and you are trying to sabotage this. you dont actually know everything, sorry.
You are right I did get a 'free shot' at progaming because when I came to Korea the skill level among foreigners, whilst still having a huge gap between the skill level of koreans, was much closer to the koreans than modern day. I was indeed one of the top foreigners back then but I certainly wasn't the best.
Now fast forward to modern day where the skill level of korean gamers is so fucking insane to a point where it is basically unattainable for non-koreans (if you think Draco got close to it you are ignorant, but he did get farther than any other non korean skill-wise imo). So here we have a korean community full of gamers so damn good and a non-korean community full of all the 4th rate newbies from the past when all the good players played. None of you have improved like the koreans. Your skill levels have stagnated and you have merely learned to copy some macro build orders invented by the new generations and learned to click faster (not you artosis ur the same as always, no offense..just a fact). Not only that, but this tournament doesn't even have the best foreign players from this day and age. It has a few good ones but the rest are 2nd and 3rd rate newbies even by today's foreigner standards. How exactly does winning a 16 man tournament full of trash players make you 'earn it' ?? You say this is going to make you earn it, whereas I got a 'free shot' by earning the respect of the whole Hexatron team and ElkY and Grrr (real progamers, who have a real sense of talent and skill, unlike you...who is a clueless newbie with a hopeless dream). Winning this tournament doesn't mean shit. It earns you nothing. It proves nothing. It only proves which one of the 2nd and 3rd rate newbies on the day of the tournament is playing the best and/or the luckiest. Whoever came up with this whole idea is doing you guys a huge favor giving you guys a chance at a little money and a chance at coming to Korea and having fun on a team.
I know this is harsh and kind of mean seeing as how it is your dream to come to Korea and be a progamer. But get your facts straight. U blow.
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United States20661 Posts
Mildly amusing.
I can't say I'm knowledgeable enough to say for sure, but generally agreed that whoever wins won't accomplish anything in Korea.
That's not to say that it's not a good opportunity, though.
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Bit blunt but entirety is true.
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i say rekrul\'s got the experience to finish him like that.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
if we fight amongst ourselves, it's impossible to build anything.. no matter the dream, no matter the purpose, no matter the truth; it simply becomes irrelevant.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
oh shut the hell up physician
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On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician hahahaha
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Why didn't they just do the same tournament, but in China, coinciding with the IEST, meaning all the best foreigners will be there?
At least China has some semblance of skill comparable to Korean standards.
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Everything you say is true, however, events such as this really are an opportunity to push foreigners into getting better and closing the skill gap
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On October 13 2007 11:11 yubee wrote:hahahaha
ROFL
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rofl steve, btw agreed rekrul artosis stfu pls and go die
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On October 13 2007 11:22 mayap wrote:
rofl steve, btw agreed rekrul artosis stfu pls and go die
Wow, thats a nice way to talk.
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On October 13 2007 11:30 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 11:22 mayap wrote:
rofl steve, btw agreed rekrul artosis stfu pls and go die Wow, thats a nice way to talk.
well alot of people agree, artosis convinced himself he's good and still talks shit to people, he needs to realize he doesnt have the potential to play anywhere but his moms basement =/
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On October 13 2007 11:32 Months wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 11:30 Camlito wrote:On October 13 2007 11:22 mayap wrote:
rofl steve, btw agreed rekrul artosis stfu pls and go die Wow, thats a nice way to talk. well alot of people agree, artosis convinced himself he's good and still talks shit to people, he needs to realize he doesnt have the potential to play anywhere but his moms basement =/
Fair enough but the way he just goes and sais that isnt needed.
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lol good points, just get over it. non koreans will never be good as koreans. even amateur korean players will trash any top foreign player 10-0
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Like any other sport, you need a pool of good players to find that special talent. Korea's got their entire youth participating, sort of like America has with football and basketball. You can't expect a country that does not have as large of a pool to find these special talents. However, that doesn't mean there should not be one or two specials out there. Someone that should theoretically go to Korea and learn/innovate, well that's the dream anyway. C'mon, I'm sure we can find one Dirk Nowitzky or Yao Ming, even in a smaller and less competitive pool of players.
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How do you explain 2-1 series with top Koreans vs top foreigners then, Steroid? o.o
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the only reason koreans are better, is bcus they wont put an english guy that can translate all the shit that goes on in proleague. The End.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
Just because Rekrul can freely trash talk someone doesn't mean the rest of you can. Tread carefully.
As for the post. Completely agree on the Korean/foreigner skill gap. Back in the days of Grrr/Elky were the days that foreigners had the best chance. Now the gap's just too insane to close. Even the chinese, who's outburst on the eSports scene is encouraging news that eSports is starting to go global (well I guess it has to jump continents before you can call it global) will have a hell of a time before they can consider themselves competitors to the Korean scene.
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yea but u get tired of always seeing artosis talking like he fucking knows everything with his bigass ego, players who are actually good are permitted to have their egos but artosis what reason do you have? your 80-70 on iccup i can find 100 random terrans who have more potential than you, after playing all this time in bw it seems like you need to find something to comfort yourself for all the time you put into bw because skillwise it doesnt seem like ur progressing right?
dont worry if estro is looking for a b- 80-70 rec terran who only gets in tourneys because of his name and the people he knows and thinks for some reason hes good(smuft story just popped into my head) ill make sure to email them so they pay closer attention your tourney reps
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I don't think it's right to band Chinese gamers into the 'foreigners' category. Our scene is almost as secluded as the Korean scene.
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True, and China actually has teams now and devoted players practicing as much as they can.
So when you see Chinese players, you know they are practiced and near the top of their game.
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I think I'm missing your point. This post seems to be saying one thing, while the post you've quoted is saying something very different, which is what artosis was reacting to.
I certainly would agree (I think most would) that there is very little chance of the winner of this tournament going on to be an accomplished progamer, or being able to compete with top Koreans, or whatever.
I don't know who Daniel is, but it sounds like you're trying to tell someone involved with the tournament that it's a bad idea, that they shouldn't do it, and so on, which is I think what artosis was responding to. In my opinion, arguing that this is a bad idea is incredibly naive and silly; clearly this is a promotional effort and seems clearly part of a corporate strategy that includes North America. Obviously this is not an attempt to cull the talent hiding abroad, it's in service of something else.
It's clearly not a "terrible idea" unless somehow something this big was invented and carried out by an intern or something. So, you appearing to try to sabotage the tournament would obviously leave a bad taste in the mouth of a potential beneficiary of it.
I don't know the history of how you came to be a progamer, so I can't speak to the quip about you lucking into your opportunity, but I didn't see anywhere in the quoted post artosis arguing that the North Americans would be able to be competitive with the Koreans, or anything like that. He was just chastising for you for what again appears to be a misguided attempt at deflating this tournament, which is an exciting prospect for the players involved and for North American fans. Unless you genuinely believe that eStro is stupid enough to be looking to North America for competitive talent, I'm having trouble understanding what your motivation is here. No one thinks foreigners are as good as Koreans.
edit: just to spell out what should be clear in my post: I have no interest in the apparent personal thing with Rek and the group of American players these threads are usually about. I don't know anything about any of those politics. I'm just talking about this specific thing.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 13 2007 10:47 Rekrul wrote:In regards to StarCraft SuperStars tournament and artosis's post here: Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:07 Artosis3 wrote:On October 12 2007 22:57 Rekrul wrote:
daniel i know you are probably going to read this, even though you probably don't value my opinion:
all the players in this line up have absolutely no talent except assem unless you're being forced to do this by estro... taking them is a terribly bad idea how do you think assem got his "talent"? through PRACTICE. you got a free shot at progaming because of who your friends were. we now have a tournament where some of us who really want it can earn it and you are trying to sabotage this. you dont actually know everything, sorry. You are right I did get a 'free shot' at progaming because when I came to Korea the skill level among foreigners, whilst still having a huge gap between the skill level of koreans, was much closer to the koreans than modern day. I was indeed one of the top foreigners back then but I certainly wasn't the best. Now fast forward to modern day where the skill level of korean gamers is so fucking insane to a point where it is basically unattainable for non-koreans (if you think Draco got close to it you are ignorant, but he did get farther than any other non korean skill-wise imo). So here we have a korean community full of gamers so damn good and a non-korean community full of all the 4th rate newbies from the past when all the good players played. None of you have improved like the koreans. Your skill levels have stagnated and you have merely learned to copy some macro build orders invented by the new generations and learned to click faster (not you artosis ur the same as always, no offense..just a fact). Not only that, but this tournament doesn't even have the best foreign players from this day and age. It has a few good ones but the rest are 2nd and 3rd rate newbies even by today's foreigner standards. How exactly does winning a 16 man tournament full of trash players make you 'earn it' ?? You say this is going to make you earn it, whereas I got a 'free shot' by earning the respect of the whole Hexatron team and ElkY and Grrr (real progamers, who have a real sense of talent and skill, unlike you...who is a clueless newbie with a hopeless dream). Winning this tournament doesn't mean shit. It earns you nothing. It proves nothing. It only proves which one of the 2nd and 3rd rate newbies on the day of the tournament is playing the best and/or the luckiest. Whoever came up with this whole idea is doing you guys a huge favor giving you guys a chance at a little money and a chance at coming to Korea and having fun on a team. I know this is harsh and kind of mean seeing as how it is your dream to come to Korea and be a progamer. But get your facts straight. U blow.
im a nice guy. i think every sc player who ever met me likes me. i try to help people out and have a good time. its a sad thing when a millionaire poker player in his 20's spends his free time stepping on my dreams and publicly degrading me. i just asked you on bnet to just leave me alone. to not talk to me or about me. if i have an "impossible" dream thats none of your business. its none of anyone's business. so what do you do? you come and make this post saying lots of negative shit about me. you can go around pretending that there is something special about all the old players or that all 300 korean progamers are "talented", and ill continue going around pretending that hard work will overcome innate ability.
leave me alone now.
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I see this just as an opportunity. Its like if I had a chance to 1v1 BoxeR, I'm never gonna win but of course I'd play with him.
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On October 13 2007 10:47 Rekrul wrote:In regards to StarCraft SuperStars tournament and artosis's post here: Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:07 Artosis3 wrote:On October 12 2007 22:57 Rekrul wrote:
daniel i know you are probably going to read this, even though you probably don't value my opinion:
all the players in this line up have absolutely no talent except assem unless you're being forced to do this by estro... taking them is a terribly bad idea how do you think assem got his "talent"? through PRACTICE. you got a free shot at progaming because of who your friends were. we now have a tournament where some of us who really want it can earn it and you are trying to sabotage this. you dont actually know everything, sorry. You are right I did get a 'free shot' at progaming because when I came to Korea the skill level among foreigners, whilst still having a huge gap between the skill level of koreans, was much closer to the koreans than modern day. I was indeed one of the top foreigners back then but I certainly wasn't the best. Now fast forward to modern day where the skill level of korean gamers is so fucking insane to a point where it is basically unattainable for non-koreans (if you think Draco got close to it you are ignorant, but he did get farther than any other non korean skill-wise imo). So here we have a korean community full of gamers so damn good and a non-korean community full of all the 4th rate newbies from the past when all the good players played. None of you have improved like the koreans. Your skill levels have stagnated and you have merely learned to copy some macro build orders invented by the new generations and learned to click faster (not you artosis ur the same as always, no offense..just a fact). Not only that, but this tournament doesn't even have the best foreign players from this day and age. It has a few good ones but the rest are 2nd and 3rd rate newbies even by today's foreigner standards. How exactly does winning a 16 man tournament full of trash players make you 'earn it' ?? You say this is going to make you earn it, whereas I got a 'free shot' by earning the respect of the whole Hexatron team and ElkY and Grrr (real progamers, who have a real sense of talent and skill, unlike you...who is a clueless newbie with a hopeless dream). Winning this tournament doesn't mean shit. It earns you nothing. It proves nothing. It only proves which one of the 2nd and 3rd rate newbies on the day of the tournament is playing the best and/or the luckiest. Whoever came up with this whole idea is doing you guys a huge favor giving you guys a chance at a little money and a chance at coming to Korea and having fun on a team. I know this is harsh and kind of mean seeing as how it is your dream to come to Korea and be a progamer. But get your facts straight. U blow.
why the fuck are you trying to shit on him for doing the EXACT SAME THING YOU DID. no one expects to win a fucking starleague. the whole point is going for a fun, unique experience. you're no more skilled than any of the people in contention for a spot and you went anyway. just because you're bitter you failed miserably doesnt mean you need to shittalk anyone else who wants to give it a shot.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
It is just a promotional tournament, and part of the prize for one of the winners will be the experience to see the real thing even if it is just as a fan thing, there is no expectations to make pro-gamers out of foreigners - so the discussion about Foreigner v Korean skill difference is irrelevant. The idea is actually a good thing for the players invited and a little for StarCraft fans if it becomes more popular - but if people keep arguing and putting down everything, it won't - and we just ruin something good for some - and why? - for nothing. I can't believe people are arguing against the event or the invited players. No wonder Koreans ignore us.
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although I really loved Foreigners Suck #1 and #2 , I think this one is just stupid. Sorry to Rek for this, but I mean, you and Assem were the same as these guys before you went to Korea, and when you started playing in Korea, got REALLY GOOD.
It would be the same for whoever gets to go from this tournament... I doubt any of them will expect to become a really good progamer, it's all about the experience. If Draco could not make it big there, no other foreigner will be able to either, but that isn't the point. The point is just for them to chase a dream and have fun while doing it.
This tournament is great for the North American scene imo.
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On October 13 2007 12:01 Artosis3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 10:47 Rekrul wrote:In regards to StarCraft SuperStars tournament and artosis's post here: On October 13 2007 06:07 Artosis3 wrote:On October 12 2007 22:57 Rekrul wrote:
daniel i know you are probably going to read this, even though you probably don't value my opinion:
all the players in this line up have absolutely no talent except assem unless you're being forced to do this by estro... taking them is a terribly bad idea how do you think assem got his "talent"? through PRACTICE. you got a free shot at progaming because of who your friends were. we now have a tournament where some of us who really want it can earn it and you are trying to sabotage this. you dont actually know everything, sorry. You are right I did get a 'free shot' at progaming because when I came to Korea the skill level among foreigners, whilst still having a huge gap between the skill level of koreans, was much closer to the koreans than modern day. I was indeed one of the top foreigners back then but I certainly wasn't the best. Now fast forward to modern day where the skill level of korean gamers is so fucking insane to a point where it is basically unattainable for non-koreans (if you think Draco got close to it you are ignorant, but he did get farther than any other non korean skill-wise imo). So here we have a korean community full of gamers so damn good and a non-korean community full of all the 4th rate newbies from the past when all the good players played. None of you have improved like the koreans. Your skill levels have stagnated and you have merely learned to copy some macro build orders invented by the new generations and learned to click faster (not you artosis ur the same as always, no offense..just a fact). Not only that, but this tournament doesn't even have the best foreign players from this day and age. It has a few good ones but the rest are 2nd and 3rd rate newbies even by today's foreigner standards. How exactly does winning a 16 man tournament full of trash players make you 'earn it' ?? You say this is going to make you earn it, whereas I got a 'free shot' by earning the respect of the whole Hexatron team and ElkY and Grrr (real progamers, who have a real sense of talent and skill, unlike you...who is a clueless newbie with a hopeless dream). Winning this tournament doesn't mean shit. It earns you nothing. It proves nothing. It only proves which one of the 2nd and 3rd rate newbies on the day of the tournament is playing the best and/or the luckiest. Whoever came up with this whole idea is doing you guys a huge favor giving you guys a chance at a little money and a chance at coming to Korea and having fun on a team. I know this is harsh and kind of mean seeing as how it is your dream to come to Korea and be a progamer. But get your facts straight. U blow. im a nice guy. i think every sc player who ever met me likes me. i try to help people out and have a good time. its a sad thing when a millionaire poker player in his 20's spends his free time stepping on my dreams and publicly degrading me. i just asked you on bnet to just leave me alone. to not talk to me or about me. if i have an "impossible" dream thats none of your business. its none of anyone's business. so what do you do? you come and make this post saying lots of negative shit about me. you can go around pretending that there is something special about all the old players or that all 300 korean progamers are "talented", and ill continue going around pretending that hard work will overcome innate ability. leave me alone now.
if this is true you and ur crew wouldnt have loss to nyoken who plays phantom on east and who didnt play bw for 1 year or froz who quit bw 2 years ago and just plays 20 games to get prepared for wcg so he can show how much of a joke you guys are, while you and your friends play 24/7 with your korean friends and still cant do shit ok? there must be something more than practice if you still havnt achieved anything
and no your not a nice guy(start by saying gg when you get raped because your not good enough to have that attitude) dont flatter yourself please if we make a poll of whos the most hated person/team on bw you guys would get a landslide win, are people really crazy to randomly target you if you didnt do anything wrong?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Bine:
The point is its pretty sad that the one time they finally decide to do something good for the community like this they limit it to a bunch of newbies instead of the players who truly deserve the shot. Sure it's better than nothing but it still deserves criticism. And yes I do believe eStro is targetting North American players for pure marketting issues which I can't blame them but it's just laughable seeing the lineup for this tournament.
I'm not trying to sabotage anything, I'm aware my opinion on this matter will have no impact on this event. Doesn't mean I can't voice it.
Artosis and IdrA: You both are missing the entire point. There are more deserving candidates that would jump at this now. I'm not saying its bad.
edit: Also IdrA I am not bitter or mad I fully support testie going to Korea and succeeding despite our past. He has the talent. I'm not saying you don't have the talent either IdrA...but Artosis and some of the other names in that lineup...god please replace them with the top europeans 
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On October 13 2007 11:42 Steroid wrote:
lol good points, just get over it. non koreans will never be good as koreans. even amateur korean players will trash any top foreign player 10-0
that's not true. amateur koreans vs amateur nonkoreans yes. but any player who can go 1-2 vs pro koreans, .
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On October 13 2007 12:11 Rekrul wrote:
Bine:
The point is its pretty sad that the one time they finally decide to do something good for the community like this they limit it to a bunch of newbies instead of the players who truly deserve the shot. Sure it's better than nothing but it still deserves criticism. And yes I do believe eStro is targetting North American players for pure marketting issues which I can't blame them but it's just laughable seeing the lineup for this tournament.
I'm not trying to sabotage anything, I'm aware my opinion on this matter will have no impact on this event. Doesn't mean I can't voice it.
Artosis and IdrA: You both are missing the entire point. There are more deserving candidates that would jump at this now. I'm not saying its bad.
So what you're saying then is that you'd prefer that the tournament be open to Europeans as well, or?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 13 2007 12:16 bine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 12:11 Rekrul wrote:
Bine:
The point is its pretty sad that the one time they finally decide to do something good for the community like this they limit it to a bunch of newbies instead of the players who truly deserve the shot. Sure it's better than nothing but it still deserves criticism. And yes I do believe eStro is targetting North American players for pure marketting issues which I can't blame them but it's just laughable seeing the lineup for this tournament.
I'm not trying to sabotage anything, I'm aware my opinion on this matter will have no impact on this event. Doesn't mean I can't voice it.
Artosis and IdrA: You both are missing the entire point. There are more deserving candidates that would jump at this now. I'm not saying its bad. So what you're saying then is that you'd prefer that the tournament be open to Europeans as well, or?
I'd prefer the best foreigners got invited. I wonder who picked this line-up. I bet it was PeurtoRican LOL.
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FuDDx
United States5008 Posts
im going to throw out a PLUR
Peace
Love
Unity
Respect
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if anyone deserves to play in a tourney like this its someone who actually achieved something in bw and has some potential like sen white-ra mondi assem or any of the repeating wcg winners(lamer comes to mind) etc., sorry but whos artosis & co. to deserve such a chance and what have they ever done to get something like this handed to them?
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Yay I was waiting for #3 haha
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no, there arent more deserving candidates that would jump at it now.
testie already has a better offer, mondragon has turned down offers (i think, and even if he hasnt he doesnt want to go), sen is inactive, draco tried and left. just about everyone else is inactive.
you can make a case for people like white-ra and others who have more achievements and are still relatively active, but in terms of current ability they arent any better than the best players in this tournament.
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Wouldn't this thread go much more smoothly if we just asked REkrul who he would've picked for the line-up and be done with it?
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Who are the more deserving names?
Not criticism i just don't follow the gaming scene outside of korea and would like to know.
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On October 13 2007 11:46 GMer[TOp] wrote:
the only reason koreans are better, is bcus they wont put an english guy that can translate all the shit that goes on in proleague. The End.
LAWL ban now.
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Quick question for Rek: Did Draco fall into the path of night? :p
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So Rekrul thinks that some players are crap, no talents who suck...fair enough. If they're so horrible, shouldn't that be self evident? If you have to come out and shout about it, you're telling us that our individual perceptions aren't enough and that you absolutely want us to know that they suck...so you have an agenda here.
Personal grudge, middle school quarreling, whatever it is you have in mind, keep the bullshit out of the "foreign scene" because it's stacked down with this crap enough as it is. Believe it or not, some people other than the players have vested interests and money in a very slowly emerging esports scene in north america and europe so you'd just as well cut the crap and find yourself a place in it than inundate us all with crying about an event that doesn't even concern you.
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I think the time for a foreign starcraft player to become a respectable pro gamer in korea has come and gone. I don't really know what estro is trying to accomplish with this. I guess it looks cool to have one foreigner on your team when the cameras look at you during pro league.
I looked at the list of players and for North America it's about as good as it gets. I think there are a couple players on that list who have a shot. The younger they are and the less time they have been known to the community, the better. The players on that list whose names you have seen around in tournaments for the last 3-4 years who haven't accomplished anything - well, they haven't accomplished anything for a reason.
Rekrul makes some good points but he's basically just being an elitist prick trying to stir up controversy. If you don't like what he has to say just ignore him or choose your words carefully this is his domain and he gets a lot of pleasure out of making you look stupid.
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What Rek is saying has nothing to do with a personal grudge. Don't lump his post into any sort of silly attack.
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Good post Rek.
Giyom was really only foreigner with a huge huge strategy and timing sense of the game. ElkY was really good as well.
I can't really say they don't deserve it because I'm no where near as good as the guys invited, but I really dont think they have a chance. Korean pro gamers and Koreans who dream to be pro gamer eat and play SC, that is all.
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8748 Posts
Ya I agree with Smuft. Although I think it's harder to spot talent than people realize. Even if someone has been on the scene forever and not accomplished shit, you never know how good he'll be once he's getting in large amounts of quality practice. Think of any random sports analogy or whatever. People can play something casually for years and only begin to shine when they're put with the right people and the right environment.
But in any case, foreigners are being thrown a bone and everyone should be happy. I think someone organizing the tourney said estro isn't even expecting a potential permanent member. It's much more promotional than a talent search.
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Just to make it clear, I'm in favor of no one here. With that said, Artosis I believe you are a great gamer but I also believe your perception is wrong. IF you tell me you play starcraft to have fun, then I would agree with you. But if you truly believe mass practice and a hard work ethic is greater than innate ability you are wrong. I'm sorry, but you are fighting an uphill battle if you believe this to be true. Please just play for fun, there is no reason approaching Starcraft with anything else in mind if you do not have true innate ability. Rekrul might come off as an asshole, but I believe there is some truth in what he says. I support whatever action you take in order to improve your game as long as it's to have fun. Just don't think that practice > innate ability. Good business men and successful people work on their strength first, while suppressing and working on their weak sides in a stead pace. Don't play this game besides anything else but to have fun.
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On October 13 2007 13:15 LOcDowN wrote:
Please just play for fun, there is no reason approaching Starcraft with anything else in mind if you do not have true innate ability.
what are you talking about. every good player since grrr... has had to practice his ass off to get where he is. 'natural talent' is near meaningless, given enough quality practice anyone can have 300 apm and anyone with a brain can play competently in terms of strategy. innate ability is what sets the nadas and the saviors apart(although without lots and lots of practice they would be nothing too). but below that level, everything is practice.
thats why the whole debate over who deserves a spot in korea is pretty meaningless. whoever goes there is going to be massively outclassed when they arrive, and if they are willing to dedicate themselves they will be very, very good given a few months of practice.
its far more important to get a dedicated player who could deal with the 10 hours a day of forced practice and the environment than it is to get someone with 'natural talent'
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Yes mass practicing is required. But I still stand by the fact innate ability + mass practice is greater than anyone who believe he can achieve greatness with just sheer mass practice (without innate ability). It makes perfect sense. You are fighting a loss battle if you want to achieve "greatness". Play for fun, mass practice to become better if you want, but in the end you are simply playing fun and achieving what you've dreamed of doing one day. Successful people work on their strength with mass practice in life, not what they're mediocre at. That's all I'm saying.
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Well, I'm wrong in lashing a little at Rekrul, I haven't followed these players or the circumstances at all, I retract anything said regarding that and apologize for jumping in like that, that's my bad.
The real point I'm trying to make, more so that people are at least aware than anything, is that there ARE large corporate entities, one of which I'm affiliated with, in the US and perhaps elsewhere, that understand that there's money in marketing in Korean esports, the emerging Chinese scene, and of course anywhere else a scene can be profitably established. Considering the rampancy of piracy and seemingly fruitless attempts at launching consoles and such in certain parts of Asia, there are middlemen out there missing out on massive gaming populaces. Add to that the emergence of platforms like Steam, and you have a lot of killed potential. Subscription and PC Bang based client models, and also the marketing and hype surrounding eSports and the associated PC games, offer potential revenue that bypass these relatively new scenes and keep the ball rolling in foreign (read: non-Asian) investment in China and potentially elsewhere.
You never know who's going to get pitched an opportunity to play a major role in the first wave of either attempts at significant non Korean esports sponsorship or an advising role in relations between North American companies and Korean/Chinese gaming culture. The point of my friendly reminder is that with the powers that be who pull the strings and make things happen at the end of the day, the whole thing has nothing to do with the viability of non-Korean progamers and their skill level, but rather the bottom line: money. That means marketability, taking advantage of the novelty of non-Koreans, and possibly even sponsoring some of your big league tourneys and such. Where a player's from, as opposed to how skilled they are, has everything to do with corporate interests, for better or worse. It's not a matter of if but when the money moves outside the borders of South Korea, and though that time could just as well be 5 years from now as next year, those who maintained a professional attitude might just come out the richer for it.
Thanks for listening and sorry for stepping on anyone's better informed toes earlier >_>
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I say let's do a rek vs artosis $50 bet match to settle this
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Relax Rek, not all of us judge themselves by the standards of korean pros. I'm sure that all the known progamers have played so many more hours than top foreigners, you know, that really helps them a lot. It's quite a bit easier to massgame (read:10h+ per day) when you live in a culture that rewards and respects you for it. That being said, of course the skill gap is large. But man, if that's all you wanted to say, why the hell did you have to go and say it like that? I don't know what kind of power trip you're having on this forum (because you lived with pros? because you're a tl.net old-timer? because you have power on the forums?), but I doubt it's wowing more people than it's annoying. I'm certainly one of the latter.
And just so you know, I think I'm a pretty good player. Especially for the amount of hours I spent on the game. Give Goodfriend or some other average progamer as few hours as I played, and I don't think he'd be that much better than me. Stop chastising the people who want in on the eSports culture. You're just coming off as bitter and power-tripping.
(I'm schism[light] btw if you didn't know)
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On October 13 2007 11:48 Live2Win wrote:
Just because Rekrul can freely trash talk someone doesn't mean the rest of you can. Tread carefully.
What is this supposed to mean?
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it means dont be a dick or you'll get banned
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On October 13 2007 14:14 BlackStar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 11:48 Live2Win wrote:
Just because Rekrul can freely trash talk someone doesn't mean the rest of you can. Tread carefully.
What is this supposed to mean?
it means youre not rek
dont question further
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Rekrul why the fuck do u talk so much shit all the time about foreigners suck. I'm sure we realize that but still why do you talk about it like its impossible for foreigners to reach korean levels? Just because you couldn't and others which have gone before haven't doesn't mean it isn't possible. And since you haven't achieved anything in korea, honestly I don't think you should pass judgment on what you should do in order to succeed.
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On October 13 2007 14:26 littlechava wrote:
it means dont be a dick or you'll get banned
On October 13 2007 14:26 XCetron wrote:
it means youre not rek
dont question further
Wait, I am a dick and I am going to get banned because I don't understand why someone starts to talk about how people can't respond to someone else trash talking?
I am not even in this discussion. I just saw this comment by someone and found it really strange. If trash talking is bad behavior shouldn't everyone refrain from it?
And if this forum has certain standards of quality shouldn't everyone be subjected to these standards?
Also, I don't understand why someone who seems quite vocal and intelligent himself needs to be 'protected' from others.
But curious also that neither of you are moderators but both of you say the same thing at the same time.
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On October 13 2007 14:26 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 14:14 BlackStar wrote:On October 13 2007 11:48 Live2Win wrote:
Just because Rekrul can freely trash talk someone doesn't mean the rest of you can. Tread carefully.
What is this supposed to mean? it means youre not rek dont question further
It was a pretty dumb comment in the first place though
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Blackstar: it's just a thing they do to feel like they are part of something. It's mostly harmless.
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On October 13 2007 11:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
How do you explain 2-1 series with top Koreans vs top foreigners then, Steroid? o.o
luck/ and savior's in horrible shape now.
On October 13 2007 11:56 mayap wrote:
yea but u get tired of always seeing artosis talking like he fucking knows everything with his bigass ego, players who are actually good are permitted to have their egos but artosis what reason do you have? your 80-70 on iccup i can find 100 random terrans who have more potential than you, after playing all this time in bw it seems like you need to find something to comfort yourself for all the time you put into bw because skillwise it doesnt seem like ur progressing right?
dont worry if estro is looking for a b- 80-70 rec terran who only gets in tourneys because of his name and the people he knows and thinks for some reason hes good(smuft story just popped into my head) ill make sure to email them so they pay closer attention your tourney reps
lol wow dude.. harsh
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On October 13 2007 12:22 IdrA wrote:
no, there arent more deserving candidates that would jump at it now.
testie already has a better offer, mondragon has turned down offers (i think, and even if he hasnt he doesnt want to go), sen is inactive, draco tried and left. just about everyone else is inactive.
you can make a case for people like white-ra and others who have more achievements and are still relatively active, but in terms of current ability they arent any better than the best players in this tournament.
basically everyone good that is left is Chinese or American.
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On October 13 2007 14:49 thoraxe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 12:22 IdrA wrote:
no, there arent more deserving candidates that would jump at it now.
testie already has a better offer, mondragon has turned down offers (i think, and even if he hasnt he doesnt want to go), sen is inactive, draco tried and left. just about everyone else is inactive.
you can make a case for people like white-ra and others who have more achievements and are still relatively active, but in terms of current ability they arent any better than the best players in this tournament.
basically everyone good that is left is Chinese or American.
The european scene has alot of talent..
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I don't care who PJ beat to get into the finals, but if you watched how Stork RAPED PJ in the first game, you won't argue about the skill level difference.
edit:
I was totally rooting for PJ, but after the first game, I knew there was no hope.
Everything Stork did was PERFECT with respect to PJ's standards. It was literally like watching an NBA star playing basketball against a kid.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
I think actually perhaps their goal out of this is to find a talented gamer, get him used to and adjusted to korea (and somewhat famous) in preparation for StarCraft 2. Thats the only logical explanation even though that itself is pretty pointless cause theres no telling who's gunna be the nuts in SC2.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 13 2007 12:46 SonuvBob wrote:
Quick question for Rek: Did Draco fall into the path of night? :p
No the OGN staff is very strict with when and where their players can go. But I could feel him leaning towards the desire to go down that path after the problems he had with OGN. He never really got the chance though. I did let him taste it a couple times though.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 13 2007 14:33 BlackStar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 14:26 littlechava wrote:
it means dont be a dick or you'll get banned Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 14:26 XCetron wrote:
it means youre not rek
dont question further Wait, I am a dick and I am going to get banned because I don't understand why someone starts to talk about how people can't respond to someone else trash talking? I am not even in this discussion. I just saw this comment by someone and found it really strange. If trash talking is bad behavior shouldn't everyone refrain from it? And if this forum has certain standards of quality shouldn't everyone be subjected to these standards? Also, I don't understand why someone who seems quite vocal and intelligent himself needs to be 'protected' from others. But curious also that neither of you are moderators but both of you say the same thing at the same time.
I dont know why all these idiots are coming out of the wood works saying I'll ban people. I don't even ban anyone anymore on this site maybe like some 10 post flamer. I especially don't ban people in my own threads unless they are being complete idiots. Say whatever U want it doesn't matter as long as you provide some sort of coherent argument.
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On October 13 2007 15:06 Rekrul wrote:
I did let him taste it a couple times though.
Nice 
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Wow, this total thread is an exercise in immaturity. You may have been insulted, Rekrul, but there is no need to go and make a separate thread just to essentially bash someone. If you were able to write your OP with just an analysis of the change in skill gap between now and then that would be fine, but don't mix it up with insults and think you aren't a douche.
As long as you keep acting like this it's hard to maintain any of what small amount of respect for you I still have left.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On October 13 2007 15:10 cz wrote:
Wow, this total thread is an exercise in immaturity. You may have been insulted, Rekrul, but there is no need to go and make a separate thread just to essentially bash someone. If you were able to write your OP with just an analysis of the change in skill gap between now and then that would be fine, but don't mix it up with insults and think you aren't a douche.
As long as you keep acting like this it's hard to maintain any of what small amount of respect for you I still have left.
Life would be pretty boring if everyone was like you
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Well, I'm just excited to see what happens. Regardless of if I think anyone from that list would fail miserably.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
I hope slog wins. That would be sweet.
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Marketing purposes wtf? they don't even know what the players look like. What if the winner turns out to be an asian american kid who's uglier than mumyung, how much marketing would that get them? Why didn't they open the tournament to Europeans? They think someone coming from the united states sounds more exotic than someone coming from like germany？When I didn't know shit about starcraft, staying in Korea and watching mbc one day I saw a white dude and asked my friends who he was they all said they didn't know and one of them said I don't know who he is but he's ugly though. Turns out it was Assem, no offense to assem but this was the extent of the publicity he got in Korea, at least in my limited experience. I don't know what Estro is trying to accomplish by this but since they did it, it's a great chance for someone to experience Korea, as long as they don't waste their life trying to become a real progamer.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician
lol
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51460 Posts
On October 13 2007 15:06 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 12:46 SonuvBob wrote:
Quick question for Rek: Did Draco fall into the path of night? :p No the OGN staff is very strict with when and where their players can go. But I could feel him leaning towards the desire to go down that path after the problems he had with OGN. He never really got the chance though. I did let him taste it a couple times though.
Very true, up and coming (lol) protoss Terato getting kicked and star terran Casy being released prime examples.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On October 13 2007 14:33 BlackStar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 14:26 littlechava wrote:
it means dont be a dick or you'll get banned Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 14:26 XCetron wrote:
it means youre not rek
dont question further Wait, I am a dick and I am going to get banned because I don't understand why someone starts to talk about how people can't respond to someone else trash talking? I am not even in this discussion. I just saw this comment by someone and found it really strange. If trash talking is bad behavior shouldn't everyone refrain from it? And if this forum has certain standards of quality shouldn't everyone be subjected to these standards? Also, I don't understand why someone who seems quite vocal and intelligent himself needs to be 'protected' from others. But curious also that neither of you are moderators but both of you say the same thing at the same time.
What I mean is, some members, especially the vets, can get away with a lot of things. Just because Rekrul acts one way doesn't mean everyone else on TL is allowed to. Remember TL's a site who runs thing it's way.
"And if this forum has certain standards of quality shouldn't everyone be subjected to these standards?"
TL 10 Commandments
Not really
I know, it's unfair. Moderators should act the same way as they expect their forum members to be.
But that's how things are here.
(FYI I'm not a moderator)
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thats right homie you gotta earn your wings
fuck why do i leave general forum? the threads are always so ridiculous. although rek's rants remain infinitely amusing
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in all honesty alot of the good players don't get into the scene or the politics of the game.. a lot of kids get onto battle.net and you'll never know 90% of them.. when sc2 comes out it will get mainstream attention to a point where you're ideal of "koreans > all" will go down the toilet.. like everyone says though it's just alot of practice.. any kid of any race or country can join any game and win.. and that's why starcraft is still here.. because you can re-install it and play that first game.. then watch yourself a week later after practicing and see how good you have gotten.. also alot of usa kids would not benefit from gaming and just because half of korea has 12 hours a day to play starcraft,.. alot of us here in the usa don't..
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 16:09 Nickisonfire wrote:
in all honesty alot of the good players don't get into the scene or the politics of the game.. a lot of kids get onto battle.net and you'll never know 90% of them.. when sc2 comes out it will get mainstream attention to a point where you're ideal of "koreans > all" will go down the toilet.. like everyone says though it's just alot of practice.. any kid of any race or country can join any game and win.. and that's why starcraft is still here.. because you can re-install it and play that first game.. then watch yourself a week later after practicing and see how good you have gotten.. also alot of usa kids would not benefit from gaming and just because half of korea has 12 hours a day to play starcraft,.. alot of us here in the usa don't..
first, i think you're misusing the word "ideal"
second, the bolded part is just wrong. korea already has proteam structure in place and most likely will be the first country to innovate new strategy, perfect mechanics, and overall develop progamers for SC2. it's a natural transition with so many BW semi-pros there.
maybe it'll be equal across the globe for the first month or so, but you give SC2 to any Korean Proteam and 1 hour of their analysis/practice is way more valuable than a week of some random American playing against his friends for leisure. Add to that the hours that Proteams put in and you're looking at just as dominant a Korea as it was in BW.
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On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician
ahahahahhaahahahaha. PWNED!
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On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician
LOL
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51460 Posts
On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician
bandwagon lol
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wow.. i am in the second pagge, i cant take this anymore. im no longer reading in this thread. theres a few people i hate in this progaming "scene" one of them is rekrul. im glad elky 5-0'd you few years ago. god fucking good riddance, its shit that whoever owns the site or is a big enough member that they can bitch and whine and whatnot(even if you say it is not so), and other members cant as someone in the first page have mentioned. this is degrading. go artosis, do a good job. i support you.
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I'm so ashamed.
Not really. :D:D:D:D:D
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excellent typing skills.
whats up with crayon? Busy with studies?
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It's pretty obvious the Koreans have figured out a system and the breakdown of the game is so specific - it has become a science. It's unfortunate because the science is only temporary and sooner or later StarCraft 2 will come out. SC2 will have its own breakdown into details, into specifics, into a science. Combine the knowledge of this science + mass practice + innate ability and you have top tier pro-gamers outclassing the lower tier pro-gamers consistently (or globally as with foreigners). The knowledge of this science + the ability to execute and mass practice the mechanic required brings almost perfection in game play. Unless us foreigners have our own training squads, there's no way we can catch up to the Koreans highly structured system of pro-gaming.
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On October 13 2007 12:03 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 10:47 Rekrul wrote:In regards to StarCraft SuperStars tournament and artosis's post here: On October 13 2007 06:07 Artosis3 wrote:On October 12 2007 22:57 Rekrul wrote:
daniel i know you are probably going to read this, even though you probably don't value my opinion:
all the players in this line up have absolutely no talent except assem unless you're being forced to do this by estro... taking them is a terribly bad idea how do you think assem got his "talent"? through PRACTICE. you got a free shot at progaming because of who your friends were. we now have a tournament where some of us who really want it can earn it and you are trying to sabotage this. you dont actually know everything, sorry. You are right I did get a 'free shot' at progaming because when I came to Korea the skill level among foreigners, whilst still having a huge gap between the skill level of koreans, was much closer to the koreans than modern day. I was indeed one of the top foreigners back then but I certainly wasn't the best. Now fast forward to modern day where the skill level of korean gamers is so fucking insane to a point where it is basically unattainable for non-koreans (if you think Draco got close to it you are ignorant, but he did get farther than any other non korean skill-wise imo). So here we have a korean community full of gamers so damn good and a non-korean community full of all the 4th rate newbies from the past when all the good players played. None of you have improved like the koreans. Your skill levels have stagnated and you have merely learned to copy some macro build orders invented by the new generations and learned to click faster (not you artosis ur the same as always, no offense..just a fact). Not only that, but this tournament doesn't even have the best foreign players from this day and age. It has a few good ones but the rest are 2nd and 3rd rate newbies even by today's foreigner standards. How exactly does winning a 16 man tournament full of trash players make you 'earn it' ?? You say this is going to make you earn it, whereas I got a 'free shot' by earning the respect of the whole Hexatron team and ElkY and Grrr (real progamers, who have a real sense of talent and skill, unlike you...who is a clueless newbie with a hopeless dream). Winning this tournament doesn't mean shit. It earns you nothing. It proves nothing. It only proves which one of the 2nd and 3rd rate newbies on the day of the tournament is playing the best and/or the luckiest. Whoever came up with this whole idea is doing you guys a huge favor giving you guys a chance at a little money and a chance at coming to Korea and having fun on a team. I know this is harsh and kind of mean seeing as how it is your dream to come to Korea and be a progamer. But get your facts straight. U blow. why the fuck are you trying to shit on him for doing the EXACT SAME THING YOU DID. no one expects to win a fucking starleague. the whole point is going for a fun, unique experience. you're no more skilled than any of the people in contention for a spot and you went anyway. just because you're bitter you failed miserably doesnt mean you need to shittalk anyone else who wants to give it a shot.
btw nice post and im a rekrul fan (cant help it im a poker guy)
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On October 13 2007 17:04 HiTexas wrote:
excellent typing skills.
whats up with crayon? Busy with studies?
BRO
U DONT EVENN KNOW.
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figured I would post in this thread before it gets to 100 pages
The prob with the tournament roster for me is that i have beat about half the players in it at various points in time(Not saying winning records vs all of them but just wins), and i am considered "unknown" and dont really play any tournaments. i fuckin play a couple hours a week with the number ever-decreasing as time goes on... So how are some dudes who I can get wins vs gonna go own koreans? Keep in mind I know the difference between casuals and tournament play.
Im sure some of the other decent players reading this thread feel the same way.
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I think only white people with good looks should be allowed to play this tournament. I'ts only natural since its a marketing ploy.
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On October 13 2007 16:53 TeRRan`UseR wrote:
I find it hgard to comperehend how good the koraenz are/. Like, i ll watch savior FPVODS on youtube and hes fucking amazing n all but its like "Why cant do that? why can't any non korean do that????? iots so fucking aghardd to comprehend how muhc better thgey are than us, cause t hey're always opklaying opponents whonare just as good. its likie, you watch the vod and think "that's pretty solid play and all, but waht speerteates us from them???"why cant i just micro that wekll, macro that hard, and be as strategically smart as them. The style of play is a lot different between kloreans and non-kjoreanz, to the point where its hard to identify. Like, someone could show me a replay witho9ut me hgaving a clue who the playrers are and id be able to guess whreether or not im watching koreanz or non koreanz. Its just weird how their style of play is so different. But like, at the end of the day, im likje a D+/C- iccup player but it looks so easy to be a savior or be a nada (assuming u can multitask that well)_ even tjhough multitasking is kjust a part of wat it takes to be that good. I dunno im just drunk and ranting and spilling my thoughts but like; how does onbe make the jump from 3rd/4th rate non0-korean nooby to potential progamer? it looks so simple, so simple that one can reach out and 'touch' the skill it takes to be that good, but at the end of the day, it just doesnt happen and i, liek many, lose to random no bodies on iccup.
i think this little tournement is cool. im no where capable of competing in it rihgt now, but its the first tourney thgats ever gioven me a 'chance' to compete like that and i hoppe to someday play in it (mainly because i like the idea of getting 500$ and i wanan put an exhaust system and shti on my wrx but still) its like...i dunno.. its so hard to explain wat seperates a korean progamer from a random no body,i understand what makes them better than us, but like, WHYY cant we be that good? WHY cant we play at that level?
its just like, some form of 'starcraft englightenment' (as ive always called ti) that one must attain to ascend to that level of skill/capability.
just my 2 canadian cents. GG. ^_^
Have a good sleep and then come back and edit this you drunk.
Anyways I think the quality of this "foreigners suck" thread is a bit lacking compared to the other two. This seems more like a bitch than anything else but all in all i agree with rek, I don't think any of those players could make it very far in korea. Iefniaj and xiaozi are really the only two that could do anything in my mind. Any of the other players seem to be stuck in a sort of rut. While they can play very well I cant see them adapting or really being ingenuitive.
Pros are pros, they will be good no matter what. They are constantly trying to bend the rules of the game and do things that just shouldn't be done ,while the players on the list try to perfect known stratagies,emulating things they've seen on MBC or OGN.
While they can do it better than the rest of us it doesn't set them apart, they just fall into the skilled foreigners category with so many others.
I gave iefnaij and xiaozi the exception because both have a still seem to have that "freshness" that alot of players have when they start. They haven't sunk into that rut of pre-defined starcraft rules that alot of older players have. They still want to impress and show something new.
+ Show Spoiler + [MANDATORY VIDEO ALERT INCASE THIS POST IS SHIT] It takes freshness to pull something like this off.
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it's obv a marketing strategy by estro, they're preparing sc2 and they know it's gonna huge in north america.
but eh, this is an opportunity for those guys gogog! glglgl
oh and daniel if you read this thread, you will find a great player.. that's sure 
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On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician
rofl thx for saving page 1
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The basic meaning of rekruls intention was to state that Artosis is not one of the best candidates to go to korea for a pro gaming team, wasnt it ?
Artosis isnt one of the best, indeed.
So rekruls just perfectly right. What do you guys even keep arguing ?
The times where the sense and the practicetime of a player like Giyom helped you winning several leagues and being the dominant force for 2-3 years are over guys. Just cope with it..
NO foreigner could have a big impact. Draco was so good he didnt. LX is exceptional he dind do anything special at all.
Mondi wouldnt do great and Testie wouldnt either..
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Cope would have raped in korea.
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Bitter man, Rekrul, bitter man...
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bitter man ? stating the truth ffs..
im out.. so many guys here are totaling missreading this..
it doesnt matter if rekrul says it in a nice or harsh way.. ffs..
There is no foreinger who could have an impact on korean bw gaming..
and artosis is indeed a player like one out of 100 in terms of skill even for NONKOREAN standards..
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On October 13 2007 13:03 Smuft wrote:
I think the time for a foreign starcraft player to become a respectable pro gamer in korea has come and gone. I don't really know what estro is trying to accomplish with this. I guess it looks cool to have one foreigner on your team when the cameras look at you during pro league.
[...]
As already has been mentioned, I also think that it is for marketing issues. North America is an interesting, if not the most interesting market for e-sports as it still has a huge growth potential. However, I do not know how having a North American player will help them to accomplish anything in the USA/Canada. They must have some big PR activities in mind because I don't think so many people would follow "the life of a (non-korean) progamer". :O
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We don't need people who have the power to state the truth. We need people with the power to change something about it.
Not Rekrul.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Meh, I don't really agree with the way it was stated, but I agree that having it open to only the americans is a pretty damn good way to miss out on sending the best possible non-korean players.
And, as I said when it was first announced - great initiative but, 5 years too late  Nothing can be done about it being 5 years too late tho, so Iet's just hope it pans out well and that whoever wins has a good time in korea/does well.
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Braavos36375 Posts
i'd settle for seeing any foreigner on a proleague match from here on out
that'd be a ridiculous success, even if he gets raped
but i don't see even that happening
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Estro is doing it for the marketing supposebly they love foreigners when they're in a pro-gaming team. I think they should of at least made it so europeans can also try ....And it's nice having a foreigner over there at least  ]
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Money makes the world go arround, doesn´t matter what face wins, i just hope none messes up his job or studies for this since in this case Dan is right, it would be a expenisve dream.
On October 13 2007 18:57 ForAdun wrote:
We don't need people who have the power to state the truth. We need people with the power to change something about it.
Not Rekrul.
Made me laugh, he at least knows the manager there you must be a good believer to think that anyone could change that
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"Talent" doesn't exist. How you learn or how good you use what you know is all based on past experience. Unless of course you're 100IQ and the other person is 200IQ, which still isn't talent. Talent is that magical word we all like to use to make ourselves or someone else feel good, but that doesn't make it real. Sorry. Anyone in that list could become an amazing player if they were on a professional team for long enough.
When you mention how Artosis and others don't improve a lot it's very true, they/he doesn't. But it's not because of this magical thing you call "talent" -- it's because he's an idiot and plays newbies all night. If he'd ever practice correctly (vs people who don't suck), he'd learn as quick as anyone else. Fact.
Not that I don't agree about the other parts. I'd still like to see other skilled guys in Europe/etc to be able to have this opportunity, but the "top teir" of them have already turned down their offers (and the other guys who haven't gotten them just don't give a shit).
I think it's kind of ironic you shit on Artosis, btw, after coming back from a progaming team and not even making it to round 3 in US WCG. All the while you acted pretty shy, too. I guess being an internet warrior is "in" though.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 13 2007 19:44 Skew wrote:
"Talent" doesn't exist. How you learn or how good you use what you know is all based on past experience. Unless of course you're 100IQ and the other person is 200IQ, which still isn't talent. Talent is that magical word we all like to use to make ourselves or someone else feel good, but that doesn't make it real. Sorry. Anyone in that list could become an amazing player if they were on a professional team for long enough.
When you mention how Artosis and others don't improve a lot it's very true, they/he doesn't. But it's not because of this magical thing you call "talent" -- it's because he's an idiot and plays newbies all night. If he'd ever practice correctly (vs people who don't suck), he'd learn as quick as anyone else. Fact.
that's not true at all dude. are you not physically aware that all of those ideal conditions already exist and there's still a huge disparity in skill between someone like Bisu and someone like Jju?
Like seriously how can you say that Artosis would progress as quick as any other person like its true? He'll progress faster or slower than other people in identical conditions, and the difference is that 'talent' thing you don't believe in.
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Braavos36375 Posts
of course talent exists, it does in anything that has vastly different levels of skill. it exists in brood war, thats why we have young guys like flash who are great early on... why we have guys like savior who didn't practice as much as the other CJ players yet became great. you think boxer or ra simply "practice" more creativity than the other players? its innate
"anyone can get there with practice" is what people tell themselves to feel good. it's what talentless people use to justify why they aren't getting anywhere, when in reality no matter how hard they work they'll never be as good as someone with talent.
i agree you need both talent+work ethic+ circumstances to be a champion, but to deny that the talent portion exists is just ignorant.
also, you can say that talent+work ethic are the same thing. some people are just born / learn the ability to work hard and be diligent. this is a "talent" just as much as moving fast is.
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What you call talent is actually just gained knowledge from a better experience.
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its quite complicated 
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 20:11 Skew wrote:
What you call talent is actually just gained knowledge from a better experience.
some people learn faster than others, some respond to pressure better
where do they learn the ability to learn faster? from experience?
then where do they learn the ability to learn the ability to learn faster then?
at some point it has to be innate, not everything is a sum of experiences
if you read boxer's biography, i bet a million kids had the same upbringing as him leading up to being a progamer, but he succeeded where others failed... its not like anyone could be him if they had similar experiences
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Braavos36375 Posts
your argument is just one side (albeit extreme) of the standard "nature vs. nurture" or "talent vs. hard work" debate
its accepted that the line of influence on success is somewhere in the middle between the two, to deny that either factor doesn't exist is really just ridiculous
its a combination of both... if you think hard work and circumstances matter more that's a much more acceptable position than "talent doesn't exist"
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On October 13 2007 20:16 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 20:11 Skew wrote:
What you call talent is actually just gained knowledge from a better experience. some people learn faster than others, some respond to pressure better where do they learn the ability to learn faster? from experience? then where do they learn the ability to learn the ability to learn faster then? at some point it has to be innate, not everything is a sum of experiences if you read boxer's biography, i bet a million kids had the same upbringing as him leading up to being a progamer, but he succeeded where others failed... its not like anyone could be him if they had similar experiences
Everyone has a completely unique experience, regardless of what kind of place they grew up in our what they ate for breakfast, lol... sorry to spoil the fun dude, but no one is born with an innate ability to play PC games.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 20:21 Skew wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 20:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 13 2007 20:11 Skew wrote:
What you call talent is actually just gained knowledge from a better experience. some people learn faster than others, some respond to pressure better where do they learn the ability to learn faster? from experience? then where do they learn the ability to learn the ability to learn faster then? at some point it has to be innate, not everything is a sum of experiences if you read boxer's biography, i bet a million kids had the same upbringing as him leading up to being a progamer, but he succeeded where others failed... its not like anyone could be him if they had similar experiences Everyone has a completely unique experience, regardless of what kind of place they grew up in our what they ate for breakfast, lol... sorry to spoil the fun dude, but no one is born with an innate ability to play PC games.
of course nobody is born with the specific ability to play starcraft, nobody was arguing that
there are certain skills people are born with, like creativity, intelligence, ability to learn faster, etc. these are obviously influenced by genetics, and clearly will help with starcraft... to say that yeah boxer was born just as smart and creative as bifrost, but somehow "learned" to be like he is solely through experience is ridiculous
that's like saying hey albert einstein, he's a genius, but anyone could've come up with the theory of relativity if they grew up the same way as him? or anyone would be hitler if they grew up the same way?
i mean what you're saying isn't new or insightful, it's an argument that was made and refuted... the consensus is that in just about all things that require depth of skill / competition or similar to sports, there IS a talent factor
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Wow @ Hot_Bid, you better don't take Hitler as an example or this thread may be closed soon... as much as I dislike some of the statements it's an interesting topic, I'd like to see it going on.
@ Skew: I had your opinion once, but I changed my mind. Talent is small, it can be overlooked easily, I think this is why you don't realize it. You probably know that the smallest things make the biggest differences.
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On October 13 2007 20:39 ForAdun wrote:
Wow @ Hot_Bid, you better don't take Hitler as an example or this thread may be closed soon... as much as I dislike some of the statements it's an interesting topic, I'd like to see it going on.
@ Skew: I had your opinion once, but I changed my mind. Talent is small, it can be overlooked easily, I think this is why you don't realize it. You probably know that the smallest things make the biggest differences.
if it gets closed... he can reopen it
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there were maybe other 'kids' who had the same dream but not every kid can practise 12h every day even in korea and i remember the first gamei replays of boxer in 2001.. you could really see he enjoyed what he did. that was the main reason for his success
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Alright well we'd go in circles forever. But I think everyone should be aware that making assumptions on how anyone would do based off of a past that no one (except themselves and close friends) know about, is very, very stupid.
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foreigners suck,korean own white duda and rekrul is god...
stupid thread.
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Braavos36375 Posts
just know that, to be successful as a progamer, it's not about the salary, it's all about reality and making some noise. it's about making the story, making sure your clicks stay up:
it's like this:
10% luck
20% skill
15% concentrated power of will
5% pleasure
50% pain
= 100% reason to remember your name
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but i think rekrul is right saying its wrong to exclude the europeans/chinese, there is no point. and if you think they made this decision based on skill then u are really dreaming.. there is more behind it
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 20:49 Skew wrote:
Alright well we'd go in circles forever. But I think everyone should be aware that making assumptions on how anyone would do based off of a past that no one (except themselves and close friends) know about, is very, very stupid.
well what if someone has a learning disability
you think a retarded person was born with as much potential as boxer to be good at professional starcraft and just somehow through his life experience became retarded?
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Rekrul : Neji
All the non-korean supporters: Naruto.
but this time neji is right. =]
Rekrul/Neji: "The moment you were born non-korean, your fate was sealed."
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And people like Michael Jordan or Ronaldinho are just hard work, right? -_-
Its a talent connected with environment you live in, specific circumstances are needed too, but its still a talent because practice makes only a craftsman, you need to be born a champion.
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u cant compare boxer's time and now.. @ boxer's time the replay function was just implemented, things like wall in etc became known .. u cant even say boxer developed it. maybe he saw it from another player @ some gamei match ( because of mass practising? )
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we should get back to the topic / sry edit
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Hahahaha foreigners are fat, slow, terrible, horrible, awful, atrocious, dreadful, hideous, gruesome, horrendous, lousy, unbearable, unusable, incompetent, repelling, tragic, stinking, loathsome, untalented, mentally disabled, retarded, detestable, sickening, painfully bad, miserable, unwinnable, incapable, hair raising, crappy, rotten, degenerate failures.
Ahhh.... Feels just as good every time. The opening post this time wasnt as good as the previous ones, but threads like this are easy reading when you have a hangover. Keep up.
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Norway28673 Posts
talent is such a fucking significant part of starcraft skill it's sick
yes everyone who is really good has played a lot
but not everyone who has played a lot is really good
in fact some are pretty bad
also rek prolly has more talent than pretty much everyone on that list.
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It's true that the koreans are far too good but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to post this kind of shit.
What are your intentions by doing this?
There is no harm done if a player goes to korea... is there?
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No body is "born a champion" -- you're made to be one. This is like that idiotic argument that kids are born "bad". Sigh.
Watching oldschoolers who never did anything suck eachother's dicks is also pretty idiotic ;P
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 22:21 Skew wrote:
No body is "born a champion" -- you're made to be one. This is like that idiotic argument that kids are born "bad". Sigh.
a stupid kid who can't think fast is "born bad." he doesn't magically become slow thinking, a large part of it will be what he's born with. it's simple genetics, people are born with different intelligence levels and personality traits that in turn affect how good they'll be at something like starcraft.
yes, circumstances and environment play a part, but it's an interplay between that and "natural talent." there exists a good debate for which side matters more, but to say one side doesn't exist simply because its an "idiot argument" (presupposing your own conclusion without any supporting evidence) is ridiculous.
Watching oldschoolers who never did anything suck eachother's dicks is also pretty idiotic ;P
i don't see how this adds anything to the argument except let everyone know that you have an agenda.
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On October 13 2007 22:26 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:21 Skew wrote:
No body is "born a champion" -- you're made to be one. This is like that idiotic argument that kids are born "bad". Sigh. a stupid kid who can't think fast is "born bad." he doesn't magically become slow thinking, a large part of it will be what he's born with. it's simple genetics, people are born with different intelligence levels and personality traits that in turn affect how good they'll be at something like starcraft. yes, circumstances and environment play a part, but it's an interplay between that and "natural talent." there exists a good debate for which side matters more, but to say one side doesn't exist simply because its an "idiot argument" (presupposing your own conclusion without any supporting evidence) is ridiculous. Show nested quote +Watching oldschoolers who never did anything suck eachother's dicks is also pretty idiotic ;P i don't see how this has anything to do with whether talent exists, but i guess it does reveal a little of why you think the way you do.
I didn't say anything about slow/fast thinking.
And Eri made 2 stupid, really wrong statements... didn't know I was only allowed to talk about talent?
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Norway28673 Posts
nobody is born good but most are born without the potential to become the best.
madcow would have been a worse player than boxer even if madcow had played twice as much as boxer against the same opponents. he's an extreme example, but there is a difference in the natural ability in a game like starcraft between virtually everyone. rek had a high amount of natural potential, but lacked dedication. (which is another significant aspect)
while I really like artosis a lot, there's no doubt that artosis scores higher when it comes to dedication than in regards to potential. I still think he should try to pursue his dreams as much as he wants to though, because the worst thing that can happen is that it doesn't work out and he has to go back. then he still experienced more than he wouldve done sitting in usa anyway, and he would end up learning more, so go for it..
I actually heard skew that you're real talented and I can easily believe this cause you seem like a smart fellow. assem was also pretty talented (I helped out both assem and artosis with well, getting starcraft fundamentals down 8-9 years ago. assem picked up the fastest, in fact assem picked up very fast. )
then you have people like sven, maynard, grrr etc whom were so loaded with natural talent that they were not only able to copy people who had the fundamentals down (like almost everyone after them did, and which is why it's probably not completely fair towards newer players to judge talent), but in fact were able to discover the fundamentals themselves. (and this goes far beyond "build as many peons as you can and pull back injured units in battle)
while practice is of course of immense importance, some people have a skill plateau significantly lower than others, and people also spend very very different amounts of time reaching a high level..
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 22:34 Skew wrote:
I didn't say anything about slow/fast thinking.
Slow/fast thinking, intelligence, ability to learn, these are all factors in "natural talent."
You can't selectively ignore things that don't support your argument.
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On October 13 2007 19:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 19:44 Skew wrote:
"Talent" doesn't exist. How you learn or how good you use what you know is all based on past experience. Unless of course you're 100IQ and the other person is 200IQ, which still isn't talent. Talent is that magical word we all like to use to make ourselves or someone else feel good, but that doesn't make it real. Sorry. Anyone in that list could become an amazing player if they were on a professional team for long enough.
When you mention how Artosis and others don't improve a lot it's very true, they/he doesn't. But it's not because of this magical thing you call "talent" -- it's because he's an idiot and plays newbies all night. If he'd ever practice correctly (vs people who don't suck), he'd learn as quick as anyone else. Fact.
that's not true at all dude. are you not physically aware that all of those ideal conditions already exist and there's still a huge disparity in skill between someone like Bisu and someone like Jju?
how come cj turns out monster player after monster player while other teams can barely get someone into a starleague?
they all have the same talent pool to pick from.
obviously every team doesnt have those ideal conditions, if they even exist. cj's practice environment does something that other teams dont.
that 'huge disparity' isnt all that big, bisu, overall, would win more, but jju is very capable of beating him any given day. its astounding when even the best players approach 70% win in their best matchup and no player is ever dominant for very long. the ability to perform under pressure is far more significant than even skill, much less 'talent', as demonstrated by canata and all the other inhouse gosus who can barely win a tv game.
talent is just some ideal all the oldschool players, who were good when no one knew how to play, want to hold on to so they can feel superior to new players.
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I don't follow the bw scene at all anymore, but all I know is that the only good foreigners in potential other than Mondragon and Draco have all quit. PJ for example is a fucking newbie, who even with massive practice still goes down like a little bitch against a real player. Reading some of these posts I am under the impression that Artosis and Skew want to try for pro? That's hilarious. You are both terrible players and have 0 shot at it. The gap between you and Koreans is huge and even with 3 years of 16 hours per day play you don't stand a chance. Trying to achieve become a pro will result into a massive waste of time for you.
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Norway28673 Posts
man that last line (in idra's post) is about the grudgiest crock of shit ive read
there's a huge difference in talent between socalled newschool players too. the difference is that now it's possible to become a good player without a significant amount of talent (but not a top player, top players still need significant talent) , while 5-10 years ago, it honestly wasn't.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 22:42 IdrA wrote:
how come cj turns out monster player after monster player while other teams can barely get someone into a starleague?
they all have the same talent pool to pick from.
obviously every team doesnt have those ideal conditions, if they even exist. cj's practice environment does something that other teams dont.
that 'huge disparity' isnt all that big, bisu, overall, would win more, but jju is very capable of beating him any given day. its astounding when even the best players approach 70% win in their best matchup and no player is ever dominant for very long. the ability to perform under pressure is far more significant than even skill, much less 'talent', as demonstrated by canata and all the other inhouse gosus who can barely win a tv game.
talent is just some ideal all the oldschool players, who were good when no one knew how to play, want to hold on to so they can feel superior to new players.
CJ turns out great players mostly because of practice environment / team culture, but also because of their incredible ability to spot "real" talent. So yes there is the same talent pool but CJ is recruiting people with more potential, more natural talent. This snowballs and naturally more people want to go to CJ and they get to pick the best of the best.
Did you know that years before Savior ever won an MSL, the CJ coach had pointed to him and told people that "this guy will be the best Zerg ever to play Starcraft." He knew before Savior even made the MSL for the first time. The CJ example doesn't hold, in fact it supports even more the notion that there is natural talent, because CJ spots it so well.
Yes JJu can beat Bisu on any given day but why is Bisu a multiple MSL winner yet Pusan has never made a final? Pusan has been in the HERO training environment much longer than Bisu. Bisu was "trained" by big brother Pusan, why is Bisu better? They practice the same way against the same people. The answer is Bisu is more talented.
Maybe that talent only means 5% more wins overall, but that talent also means the difference between a decent spirit toss and the best Protoss of all time.
Talent exists and it's a major factor.
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so, back when you were good you had to have talent to be good
but now you dont?
talk about a crock of shit.
why on earth would you need more talent to be good (relative to the time period) when people were worse (in terms of absolute ability)?
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 22:50 IdrA wrote:
so, back when you were good you had to have talent to be good
but now you dont?
talk about a crock of shit.
why on earth would you need more talent to be good (relative to the time period) when people were worse (in terms of absolute ability)?
i can answer this one. before when there weren't replays and there weren't perfected proteam training routines. there weren't maxed out strategies and there existed room for innovation. players had to rely on natural talent a lot more.
nowadays, most proteams can basically manufacture a hundred 250apm semipro FE Terrans that play the same way. the only thing separating them from each other is potential and talent, that "spark" people look for that can't be taught.
haven't you ever heard Rek tell stories about back when Giyom was dominating, he rarely practiced at all, he'd like show up drunk and win tournaments.
edit: not saying this is really the case between you/skew and the older players, i am not a judge of skill... i'm just saying the Drone's logic makes sense.
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Idra, you are terrible as a player.
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On October 13 2007 22:49 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:42 IdrA wrote:
how come cj turns out monster player after monster player while other teams can barely get someone into a starleague?
they all have the same talent pool to pick from.
obviously every team doesnt have those ideal conditions, if they even exist. cj's practice environment does something that other teams dont.
that 'huge disparity' isnt all that big, bisu, overall, would win more, but jju is very capable of beating him any given day. its astounding when even the best players approach 70% win in their best matchup and no player is ever dominant for very long. the ability to perform under pressure is far more significant than even skill, much less 'talent', as demonstrated by canata and all the other inhouse gosus who can barely win a tv game.
talent is just some ideal all the oldschool players, who were good when no one knew how to play, want to hold on to so they can feel superior to new players. CJ turns out great players mostly because of practice environment / team culture, but also because of their incredible ability to spot "real" talent. So yes there is the same talent pool but CJ is recruiting people with more potential, more natural talent. This snowballs and naturally more people want to go to CJ and they get to pick the best of the best. Did you know that years before Savior ever won an MSL, the CJ coach had pointed to him and told people that "this guy will be the best Zerg ever to play Starcraft." He knew before Savior even made the MSL for the first time. The CJ example doesn't hold, in fact it supports even more the notion that there is natural talent, because CJ spots it so well. Yes JJu can beat Bisu on any given day but why is Bisu a multiple MSL winner yet Pusan has never made a final? Pusan has been in the HERO training environment much longer than Bisu. Bisu was "trained" by big brother Pusan, why is Bisu better? They practice the same way against the same people. The answer is Bisu is more talented. Maybe that talent only means 5% more wins overall, but that talent also means the difference between a decent spirit toss and the best Protoss of all time. Talent exists and it's a major factor.
well, look at their starleague performances. pusan gets to the semi finals and is up 2-0, catches boxer cheesing and has his back against the wall in the third game. but falls apart and loses 2-3.
whereas bisu is a good(but not great) player in proleague games and whatnot, but he turns it on when it really matters.
the ability to perform under pressure is what determines the champions. that is why bisu has 2 starleague titles and stork doesnt have one. stork is clearly(i think) just as good as bisu. but stork falls apart when he has the lead in the fifth set, bisu doesnt.
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Braavos36375 Posts
i don't see how that proves theres no talent disparity. "being clutch" is innate as well as circumstantial... people have different potential to perform well under pressure. some people are just naturally very nervous, some are calm and always come through. it's part trained, part personality (thus, part talent).
and this still doesn't address the intelligence/fast thinking/fast learning aspect of talent. certain players even though fundamentally brilliant still make the dumbest decisions. i'm sure the proteams try to teach their players to make smart, instant decisions but that kind of split second creativity is partly talent.
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Yeah that's surely it. It's pressure.
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I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here
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On October 13 2007 22:53 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:50 IdrA wrote:
so, back when you were good you had to have talent to be good
but now you dont?
talk about a crock of shit.
why on earth would you need more talent to be good (relative to the time period) when people were worse (in terms of absolute ability)? i can answer this one. before when there weren't replays, there weren't perfected proteam training routines, there weren't maxed out strategies, there existed room for innovation. players had to rely on natural talent a lot more. nowadays, most proteams can basically manufacture a hundred 250apm semipro FE Terrans that play the same way. the only thing separating them from each other is potential and talent, that "spark" people look for that can't be taught. haven't you ever heard Rek tell stories about back when Giyom was dominating, he rarely practiced at all, he'd like show up drunk and win tournaments.
ya, back when people were still trying to figure out how the fuck they were supposed to play the game. and then boxer came along and every good player since has had to practice his ass off to be anything.
as for the other point, thats the sticking point of the whole debate. i dont really see how doing crazy shit when people dont know how to respond properly qualifies as talent. look at tsunami. stick him in an environment where people actually know what theyre doing, and how to respond to stuff, hed get run over. yet people call him a tactical genius for.. doing retarded shit.
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On October 13 2007 22:56 Hot_Bid wrote:
i don't see how that proves theres no talent disparity. "being clutch" is innate as well as circumstantial... people have different potential to perform well under pressure. some people are just naturally very nervous, some are calm and always come through. it's part trained, part personality (thus, part talent).
and this still doesn't address the intelligence/fast thinking/fast learning aspect of talent. certain players even though fundamentally brilliant still make the dumbest decisions. i'm sure the proteams try to teach their players to make smart, instant decisions but that kind of split second creativity is partly talent.
well to take skews initial example, if you put someone with 100 iq against someone with 200 iq, the one with 200 iq is probably gonna win. does he have an innate ability to play starcraft?
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Braavos36375 Posts
you don't think creativity and innovation are talent-based things? i don't think you can manufacture a great artist.
are you saying then, that if you were born to boxer's family and did exactly what boxer did during his life then you would be exactly the same as him? isn't that kind of a ridiculous statement?
why do proteams even bother selectively recruiting then? they can just take random people off the street.
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actually its very easy. either you think money is the most important thing and you cant lose 1-2 semester @ uni or you dont care and try it
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On October 13 2007 22:57 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here
ya i find it somewhat insulting that people like you think you're better than me just because you quit playing once people figured out how to actually play.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:56 Hot_Bid wrote:
i don't see how that proves theres no talent disparity. "being clutch" is innate as well as circumstantial... people have different potential to perform well under pressure. some people are just naturally very nervous, some are calm and always come through. it's part trained, part personality (thus, part talent).
and this still doesn't address the intelligence/fast thinking/fast learning aspect of talent. certain players even though fundamentally brilliant still make the dumbest decisions. i'm sure the proteams try to teach their players to make smart, instant decisions but that kind of split second creativity is partly talent. well to take skews initial example, if you put someone with 100 iq against someone with 200 iq, the one with 200 iq is probably gonna win. does he have an innate ability to play starcraft?
if you pit someone who is really coordinated and tall against someone short and fat, obviously the tall and coordinated person will win.
but does he have an innate ability to play basketball???
obviously IQ, intelligence, thinking-speed, learning-speed, hand-speed, these are all partially innate, "talent" factors that make a good starcraft player.
nobody is claiming someone is born with the ability to play a random computer game designed by a random company, as if God or evolution or whatever when making a person somehow thinks "gee lets make a starcraft baby."
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On October 13 2007 23:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
you don't think creativity and innovation are talent-based things? i don't think you can manufacture a great artist.
are you saying then, that if you were born to boxer's family and did exactly what boxer did during his life then you would be exactly the same as him? isn't that kind of a ridiculous statement?
why do proteams even bother selectively recruiting then? they can just take random people off the street.
taking any reasonably smart person who has the will/dedication to practice enough off the street would be just as good. but it saves time to pick people who are already good.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:05 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
you don't think creativity and innovation are talent-based things? i don't think you can manufacture a great artist.
are you saying then, that if you were born to boxer's family and did exactly what boxer did during his life then you would be exactly the same as him? isn't that kind of a ridiculous statement?
why do proteams even bother selectively recruiting then? they can just take random people off the street. taking any reasonably smart person who has the will/dedication to practice enough off the street would be just as good. but it saves time to pick people who are already good.
ah but that's not what Skew was saying. he was saying talent didn't exist AT ALL, or barely had any impact. that's what i'm arguing against and what i think is amazingly ignorant.
"reasonably smart person who has the will and dedication" is already presupposing a good amount of talent, and there's a continuum of how talented (how smart, how much will, how much dedication) that person has. part of this is what they are born with.
simply being reasonably smart with will and dedication (somewhat talented) may get you on a pro team but you will NOT be a champion without some form of exceptional talent, whether it be dedication, competitiveness, determination, intelligence, etc... you can train these factors but only as to the amount you were born with.
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Talent and fast learning are two different things, but they are closely related. Allthough you'll more often than not see the one person picking up a sport/competition fast and then improve faster than others, the effort put in will show after a certain amount of time. In other words the slowly improving might have a higher potential maximum level than the fast improving player. If the dedication and will is there I believe many players(also a good share of nonkoreans) will be able to reach a high level, and the talent part only limits you from reaching the Bisus and Saviors.
SaferZerg. Made it to quarters in the IOPS OSL about 3 years ago. Last thing I heard from him was that he lost against TossGirl in the MBC prelims. If SaferZerg can reach the quarters then so can MANY other progamers as well. Timing and luck with brackets, maps, matchups, and form are of course important points, but it is certainly possible. Chances are slim though. PJ beating Savior in another BO3 are about the same
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Braavos36375 Posts
i don't see how "learning fast" isn't something that's considered a talent.
anything that you're born or genetically influenced to have in greater amount than someone else, or that gives you an innate advantage given similar environment, is talent.
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On October 13 2007 23:07 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:05 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 23:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
you don't think creativity and innovation are talent-based things? i don't think you can manufacture a great artist.
are you saying then, that if you were born to boxer's family and did exactly what boxer did during his life then you would be exactly the same as him? isn't that kind of a ridiculous statement?
why do proteams even bother selectively recruiting then? they can just take random people off the street. taking any reasonably smart person who has the will/dedication to practice enough off the street would be just as good. but it saves time to pick people who are already good. ah but that's not what Skew was saying. he was saying talent didn't exist AT ALL, or barely had any impact. that's what i'm arguing against and what i think is amazingly ignorant.
Uhh.. yes it is. Talent doesn't _mean_ anything and people aren't born with innate abilities.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:02 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:57 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here ya i find it somewhat insulting that people like you think you're better than me just because you quit playing once people figured out how to actually play.
i don't see how it really is that insulting that they think they are better than you, is it really a big deal that some random guys that don't even play this game anymore think they are better than you?
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iq and talent are completely different, elseway jordan would make speeches @ harvard
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someone whos smarter and more coordinated will have an advantage at almost anything, so if you want to define it like that its almost meaningless, with respect to starcraft.
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On October 13 2007 23:16 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:02 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 22:57 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here ya i find it somewhat insulting that people like you think you're better than me just because you quit playing once people figured out how to actually play. i don't see how it really is that insulting that they think they are better than you, is it really a big deal that some random guys that don't even play this game anymore think they are better than you?
insulting was the wrong word
i think theyre wrong and their opinion is somewhat stupid.
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Talent isn't used right if it ever was. Bid and every other person on this forum use it when they see someone who's better than another, but are unable to explain why. So they slap the talent sticker on it and call it a day. Unfortunately that's not how things work, and most people are not better than others because they were born a different way, but I guess explaining it is too difficult (if only I was more talented T_T).
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:14 Skew wrote:
Uhh.. yes it is. Talent doesn't _mean_ anything and people aren't born with innate abilities.
"talent doesn't mean anything" is completely different than "people aren't born with innate abilities"
i cannot believe how someone born and raised in the 20th century would not think people are born with innate abilities. people are born with a wide range of intelligence, personality, and other factors that will influence how good they are or are not at something.
lebron james didn't workout a day in his life before going to the NBA, but he was strong, 6'8" and coordinated. while you could say he wasn't "born specifically with basketball skill" he WAS born with a combination of genetic abilities that contribute to him being good at sports, basketball being one of those sports.
so you can draw the same analogy to starcraft, someone who is born with insanely fast hands, great hand-eye coordination, quick learning brain, intelligent, etc. is born with "talent factors" that make him have the potential to be a better starcraft player than some random retarded dude. i agree if this person doesn't work hard or doesn't play starcraft his talent won't be realized. but you saying it "doesn't mean anything" is ridiculous--it means EVERYTHING to a pro-team.
Savior, Bisu, and Boxer, whoever the champions are, they are born with simply MORE of that stuff i listed.
You could even argue that work-ethic and determination are partially innate too.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:21 Skew wrote:
Talent isn't used right if it ever was. Bid and every other person on this forum use it when they see someone who's better than another, but are unable to explain why. So they slap the talent sticker on it and call it a day. Unfortunately that's not how things work, and most people are not better than others because they were born a different way, but I guess explaining it is too difficult (if only I was more talented T_T).
1. Don't make assumptions about me.
2. You're saying that when you look at michael jordan you think you are born exactly the same as him? He's not better than you at sports because he's born in a different way? Albert Einstein wasn't born differently than you?
3. Haha I agree about the last sentence.
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Braavos36375 Posts
i mean i get that you're trying to say hard work matters a lot. nobody is even arguing with you about that.
but to think that everyone is born with the ability/potential to be picasso or mozart or einstein is just flat stupid.
starcraft is just a different level of that extreme example. there are "einsteins" in starcraft: Savior, Boxer, etc. these guys are players born with certain qualities that no matter how hard you practiced you can't be as good as them. accepting this isn't "using talent wrong."
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ya that i can agree with
my initial post i actually said talent only defines the nadas and the saviors
kinda got warped from there
i just think 'talent' is pretty much meaningless outside of the very very best, because anyone with the dedication and practice environment can become a good progamer, given time.
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On October 13 2007 23:23 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:21 Skew wrote:
Talent isn't used right if it ever was. Bid and every other person on this forum use it when they see someone who's better than another, but are unable to explain why. So they slap the talent sticker on it and call it a day. Unfortunately that's not how things work, and most people are not better than others because they were born a different way, but I guess explaining it is too difficult (if only I was more talented T_T). 1. Don't make assumptions about me. 2. You're saying that when you look at michael jordan you think you are born exactly the same as him? He's not better than you at sports because he's born in a different way? Albert Einstein wasn't born differently than you?
I'm talking about StarCraft... argggg, and I said 'most'. The other thing wasn't to you. Anyways I'm glad you are finally talking about things that exist, instead of a cover word ;p
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:29 IdrA wrote:
ya that i can agree with
my initial post i actually said talent only defines the nadas and the saviors
kinda got warped from there
i just think 'talent' is pretty much meaningless outside of the very very best, because anyone with the dedication and practice environment can become a good progamer, given time.
again, "anyone" in this context is someone who is reasonably coordinated, reasonably intelligent, can learn, is dedicated, etc... these are "talent" factors. the average "anyone" can't be a good progamer.
i think talent affects everyone on the progaming spectrum, from the worst player ever all the way up to Savior and Bisu. when you get to korean proleagues you're already dealing with the best of the best, so the differences are really small (60% win ratio is amazing) but given how tiny the margins are between victory/defeat, those small differences due to talent are significant.
i.e. if you accept that talent separates a champion Savior and Bisu from a "good" progamer, you surely would accept that talent separates a "good" progamer like Mania or Lomo from a mediocre or bad one like Clon? I don't see why its only applicable to the very top.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:30 Skew wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:23 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 13 2007 23:21 Skew wrote:
Talent isn't used right if it ever was. Bid and every other person on this forum use it when they see someone who's better than another, but are unable to explain why. So they slap the talent sticker on it and call it a day. Unfortunately that's not how things work, and most people are not better than others because they were born a different way, but I guess explaining it is too difficult (if only I was more talented T_T). 1. Don't make assumptions about me. 2. You're saying that when you look at michael jordan you think you are born exactly the same as him? He's not better than you at sports because he's born in a different way? Albert Einstein wasn't born differently than you? I'm talking about StarCraft... argggg, and I said 'most'. The other thing wasn't to you. Anyways I'm glad you are finally talking about things that exist, instead of a cover word ;p
starcraft is just a different level of that einstein example.
there are "einsteins" in starcraft: Savior, Boxer, etc. these guys are players born with certain qualities that no matter how hard you practiced you can't be as good as them. accepting this isn't "using 'talent' wrong."
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Also I dont understand why people are saying Grrrr didnt practice. He played very much infact. The practiceelement has always been a large part of BW as in any other competition, Boxer just extended the number of hours from 7-8 to 10. I do somewhat agree with IdrAs statement that many oldschool players say people were more talented back then. That's exactly because talent can be defined as creativity and fast improvement , but also as ability to reach a maximum level.
Chances are Maynard wouldnt be the clearly best american player if he would\'ve continued playing. Others would most likely surpass him and hed reach his peak, but he got a headstart due to his talent of understanding the game. Nowadays that isnt as important as when something is new like BW was then.
So in a way the oldschoolers are right about the talent needed back then was much more evident than now. However the ability to reach a certain level also requires a talent, and many oldschoolers overrate themselves in this type of talent saying if they had continued playing they would have been much better than the current elite. That is wrong, and in that way some of the newer players might be more talented in ability to reach a peak. The peak has been marginal from the Oov domination days to Savior and Bisu days though, and the foreign elite has barely changed, other than some good players quitting.
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On October 13 2007 23:35 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:29 IdrA wrote:
ya that i can agree with
my initial post i actually said talent only defines the nadas and the saviors
kinda got warped from there
i just think 'talent' is pretty much meaningless outside of the very very best, because anyone with the dedication and practice environment can become a good progamer, given time. again, "anyone" in this context is someone who is reasonably coordinated, reasonably intelligent, can learn, is dedicated, etc... these are "talent" factors. the average "anyone" can't be a good progamer. i think talent affects everyone on the progaming spectrum, from the worst player ever all the way up to Savior and Bisu. when you get to korean proleagues you're already dealing with the best of the best, so the differences are really small (60% win ratio is amazing) but given how tiny the margins are between victory/defeat, those small differences due to talent are significant. i.e. if you accept that talent separates a champion Savior and Bisu from a "good" progamer, you surely would accept that talent separates a "good" progamer like Mania or Lomo from a mediocre or bad one like Clon? I don't see why its only applicable to the very top.
because mediocre players can become very good players.
look at iris, he was a fairly constant starleaguer, never really did anything. was more known for being shitty tvz than for anything else. and all the sudden he busts out and almost beats savior at the height of savior's reign, and starts owning everyone else.
he didnt suddenly get smarter or more coordinated.
the only reason i say it does define the very best is because (unless im forgetting someone) you never see some mediocre player all the sudden become undefeatable. nada,oov,savior all burst out onto the scene and fucked everyone up.
and even those people arent constantly on top, which i would view as just another indicator that practice and determination and mental state are far more important factors in a players performance than some innate aptitude.
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On October 13 2007 23:20 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 13 2007 23:02 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 22:57 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here ya i find it somewhat insulting that people like you think you're better than me just because you quit playing once people figured out how to actually play. i don't see how it really is that insulting that they think they are better than you, is it really a big deal that some random guys that don't even play this game anymore think they are better than you? insulting was the wrong word i think theyre wrong and their opinion is somewhat stupid.
How about I challenge you for a bo5 at old maps that I can pick and I'm willing to bet money on it? Would you take it?
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:45 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:35 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 13 2007 23:29 IdrA wrote:
ya that i can agree with
my initial post i actually said talent only defines the nadas and the saviors
kinda got warped from there
i just think 'talent' is pretty much meaningless outside of the very very best, because anyone with the dedication and practice environment can become a good progamer, given time. again, "anyone" in this context is someone who is reasonably coordinated, reasonably intelligent, can learn, is dedicated, etc... these are "talent" factors. the average "anyone" can't be a good progamer. i think talent affects everyone on the progaming spectrum, from the worst player ever all the way up to Savior and Bisu. when you get to korean proleagues you're already dealing with the best of the best, so the differences are really small (60% win ratio is amazing) but given how tiny the margins are between victory/defeat, those small differences due to talent are significant. i.e. if you accept that talent separates a champion Savior and Bisu from a "good" progamer, you surely would accept that talent separates a "good" progamer like Mania or Lomo from a mediocre or bad one like Clon? I don't see why its only applicable to the very top. because mediocre players can become very good players. look at iris, he was a fairly constant starleaguer, never really did anything. was more known for being shitty tvz than for anything else. and all the sudden he busts out and almost beats savior at the height of savior's reign, and starts owning everyone else. he didnt suddenly get smarter or more coordinated. the only reason i say it does define the very best is because (unless im forgetting someone) you never see some mediocre player all the sudden become undefeatable. nada,oov,savior all burst out onto the scene and fucked everyone up. and even those people arent constantly on top, which i would view as just another indicator that practice and determination and mental state are far more important factors in a players performance than some innate aptitude.
i can see your point but the subset of players you named (iris, savior, nada, oov) already all have crazy talent.
that's like saying "among kobe bryant, dwayne wade, lebron james, and carmelo anthony, work ethic matters more than talent"
well obviously in a group of players that are already the most innate ability, those factors like "practice, determination, and mental state" will matter more than innate aptitude because they all have ridiculous amounts of innate aptitude
but lets say "among nada, oov, savior, iris, bisu, and rekrul, practice,determination, and mental state matter more than innate aptitude" people will be like no fucking way
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but lets say "among nada, oov, savior, iris, bisu, and rekrul, practice,determination, and mental state matter more than innate aptitude" people will be like no fucking way
i would agree with that wholeheartedly. rek went to korea, and essentially blew it off (from his own stories). went out and partied, spent his time playing poker instead of practicing. little practice, no apparent determination, and he failed.
and my whole point was that iris didnt have 'crazy talent'. he was just another standard terran who looked like hed never amount to anything real. and all the sudden he got top 4 in 2 consecutive starleagues and was beating the scariest players around.
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On October 13 2007 23:52 {ToT}Strafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:20 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 23:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 13 2007 23:02 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 22:57 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here ya i find it somewhat insulting that people like you think you're better than me just because you quit playing once people figured out how to actually play. i don't see how it really is that insulting that they think they are better than you, is it really a big deal that some random guys that don't even play this game anymore think they are better than you? insulting was the wrong word i think theyre wrong and their opinion is somewhat stupid. How about I challenge you for a bo5 at old maps that I can pick and I'm willing to bet money on it? Would you take it?
so you want to try to beat me at imbalanced maps i dont know?
you're a manly man~
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Talent : a capacity for achievement or success, a special natural ability or aptitude.
how do you judge starcraft talents? I know in basketball it's the hight of the person, agility of the person, skill and knowledge is not a natural ability. In football what really matters is speed, everything else you can teach, and grind with hardwork.
Knowledge of the game is not part of the talent pool, because that comes with experience.
apm is not part of the talent pool, because that comes with partice
Strategy, timmng are not part of the talent pool, that comes from watching replays over and over.
In order to end this debate you guys must aggree up on one thing:
What do you consider to be a natural talent in the game of starcraft. What do you think the Korean have in different from the rest of the world?
My definition for talent in broodwar is the willingness to do Hard WorK.
What's yours?
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Naturally both talent and practice (genetics and environment, or nature and nurture) are both very important for most things in life. That is scientifically proven in about a thousand studies.
In addition, the _relative importance_ of talent vs practice can differ. What I am about to say has been mentioned previously, but this might be a clearer illustration:
Player A has an incredible creative talent for strategizing new build orders and unit mixes. He relies 70 percent on talent och 30 percent on practice. Now, replays start getting distributed. Everyone learns his plays. Proteams starts perfecting build orders mechanically. He can no longer rely 70 percent on talent because the circumstances are changing. If he is to continue competing at a high level, he has to step up his practice and perhaps instead rely 40 percent on talent and 60 percent on practice.
Player B has a great talent for sensing when to attack and when to fall back. To sense when macro is more important than micro, and vice versa. Like Player A, Player B initially relies 70 percent on talent and 30 percent on practice. This "sense-of-star"-talent is more subtle than the "build order"-talent of Player A, so Player B initially gets defeated by Player A. Now, as the game of Starcraft is analyzed, Player A's talent is less effective, as described above. However, the talent of Player B is much more difficult to copy, so Player B can still rely perhaps 55 percent on talent and 45 percent on practice. In addition, now it is Player B that defeats Player A. Conclusion: The importance of talent might differ between different players, and between different circumstances.
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Gotta say I'm 100% with Hot Bid on this one.
When people say someone is "talented" for, say, Starcraft, they dont mean he was born with the innate ability to macro or micro well. It doesnt mean he or she has special neuronal processes designed specifically to improve starcraft performances, or extra fine hand muscles for that perfect micro. They mean he has the physical/mental/emotional skills to give him an advantage over other people. Fine motor skills, for example, vary a lot from person to person, and they obviously play a role in micro. Similarly, people who react faster will have an edge. So will people who are smarter, or more creative. The example about a 100 IQ guy losing to a 200 IQ guy actually only reinforces what hotbid is saying, since having a 200 IQ equips the person with a greater degree of understanding of the game, the ability to learn faster, and possibly to be more innovative. In other words, its one of his "talents" that'll help him be better at SC.
That said, hard work and practice will, of course, help one improve, irrespective of talent. But when we talk about korea, where everyone plays their skin off, the people who reach the top arent just the ones who practice a lot, they're also those who are mentally and physically better equipped to master the game. In an environment like that, the amount of practice and hard work probably becomes the constant factor.
I agree with Idra that nerves do play a role, being on stage and being aware god knows how many people are watching you. I do think hes exaggerated it a bit, though, and that people learn to control them somewhat with experience. I also think that the ability to remain calm and completely lucid under pressure is a "talent" that will help a person in any televised, widely followed sport.
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What about SunCow. Why didnt he "make it" ? Was it bcuz of lack of "talent," or a horrible attitude. I thought that he was actually good in all 3 matchups. And by his apm charts i would say that he had good dexterity.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On October 13 2007 23:59 IdrA wrote:
and my whole point was that iris didnt have 'crazy talent'. he was just another standard terran who looked like hed never amount to anything real. and all the sudden he got top 4 in 2 consecutive starleagues and was beating the scariest players around.
i'll have to disagree with you on that... iris is far from "just another standard terran"
you can argue that iris always had the potential and only realized it recently
On October 14 2007 00:20 rei wrote:
What do you consider to be a natural talent in the game of starcraft. What do you think the Korean have in different from the rest of the world?
I don't think Koreans have any more talent than the rest of the world at skills that would make good Starcraft players. They just have more Starcraft players and thus statistically will have more talented players. There are probably quite a few people in North America that can be as good as Bisu and Savior--they just don't play Starcraft, where in Korea it's more likely that they do.
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You could even argue that work-ethic and determination are partially innate too.
While people are definitely born with different abilities, I'd say you're giving way too little credit to one's environment. It's hugely significant.
That said, nature and nurture both contribute a lot and in varying degrees to different people. That's really all there is to it.
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Talent exists in every game but in starcraft unlike in say soccer or chess, it determines very little someone's maximum potential. I believe anyone who is not mentally handicapped can become a decent progamer in Korea with enough practice and be better than 99% of the people who play this game. In football/soccer/chess/poker, etc, 99% of the people don't have the potential to rise to the top 1% to begin with no matter how much effort they put into improving.
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you can\'t really argue with hot bid because he\'s saying that all those who made it had some innate talents. (thing which can\'t really be disproved).
questions?
do all talented guys make it?, if no then why?.
or, if they didn\'t make it it means they weren\'t so talented to begin with?
(you can expand the questions to other things besides starcraft)
i\'m not the one who would fuck an einstein just because he has talents or abilities but to say that all the other suck compared to him would make me a snob and an elitist.
i agree that the foreigners (whites) will not make it in progaming but my reason is: they are just lazy fucks and they lack the korean mentality.
i would not drag ones talent in to this because it\'s to arbitrary of an issue which can\'t be proved or disproved.
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On October 14 2007 00:43 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:59 IdrA wrote:
and my whole point was that iris didnt have 'crazy talent'. he was just another standard terran who looked like hed never amount to anything real. and all the sudden he got top 4 in 2 consecutive starleagues and was beating the scariest players around. i'll have to disagree with you on that... iris is far from "just another standard terran" you can argue that iris always had the potential and only realized it recently
obviously, NOW he isnt just another standard terran. but watch some vods of his old games. some of his tvz's were just pitiful, and tvp/tvt he was nothing special. solid macro and very standard play, not much else.
i dont see why you would try to argue that he awakened some hidden talent or something. just watch games before and after. he revamped his style of play, got alot more aggressive and timing attack focused, and cleaned up his micro.
changing your playing style obviously isnt a result of talent, and i think its far more likely that cleaned up mechanics are the result of hard practice than.... newly found talent-driven fingers.
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Basically starcraft isn't as deep of a game as many think
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On October 14 2007 00:00 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 23:52 {ToT}Strafe wrote:On October 13 2007 23:20 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 23:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 13 2007 23:02 IdrA wrote:On October 13 2007 22:57 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I get the feeling someone is indirectly defending himself here ya i find it somewhat insulting that people like you think you're better than me just because you quit playing once people figured out how to actually play. i don't see how it really is that insulting that they think they are better than you, is it really a big deal that some random guys that don't even play this game anymore think they are better than you? insulting was the wrong word i think theyre wrong and their opinion is somewhat stupid. How about I challenge you for a bo5 at old maps that I can pick and I'm willing to bet money on it? Would you take it? so you want to try to beat me at imbalanced maps i dont know? you're a manly man~
you are a fucking coward. I haven;t played in 3 years and I'm convinced I will fucking smash your big mouth pvt and because I am just too lazy to practice new maps I want to play the ones that were played in 2003. You were playing back then so you know them as well as I do, if any you know those better than I do. You have been playing for the past 5 years and you are one of the most active players now and you don't instantly take this proposition? You are a girly girl.
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now the discussion is like ' does god exist or not ? ' u cant prove anything.. these are all assertions
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i wasnt playing in 2003..
ive been playing low money since a little before luna became the end all be all of maps, the only maps from before that ive really played are lt and blade storm and a few others that still got play in ladders.
i have nothing to gain from beating you since you'll just say you're inactive and it means nothing, whereas if you pick some map ive never seen before and manage to cheese me i look ridiculous.
you're a jackass, but you arent retarded, meaning youd pick the most obscure map you could to try to fuck with me. so if you wanna play a normal map, sure. otherwise no.
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Blade Storm, LT, Nostalgia, Luna those 4 maps then.
You indeed have nothing to gain. If I lose it means I was wrong and lose a bit of my dignity( which I don't even have) However if I beat you, I will fucking mock you for the rest of time and every post you make on tl.net will be followed by LOLOLOL. The fact you even doubt you can beat me on those maps says enough for me.
I am a lot better player skill wise and in potential than you will ever be.
And yes you were playing in 2003, because I fucking remember your name from b.net. Don't lie to me. Or yourself.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
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Gandalf makes good points about practice being almost a constant factor in pro-gaming today. Therefore, talent is relatively more important than practice.
Just two more examples just how relatively important talents are: The talent for having a good memory is more important in a pro-team than when being alone, since in a pro-team there is so much to learn from the team mates. The talent for having fast fingers is more important for a Terran than for a Protoss since Terran requires higher APM.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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It's sort of disturbing how flip everyone is about insulting everyone else, especially the people who are still active participants in the game. Several of you seem to know a couple of conditions: a) lots of the "new school" players or whatever work very hard and play "24/7", ie. they practice a lot, and b) they have a strong desire to be good at the game.
Even if you have a theory about magical talent that you're born with and predetermines your fate as a StarCraft player, isn't it pretty basic decency not to piss in the face of someone by degrading their ability to do what they spend all of their time trying to do?
As an outside observer with no real relationships on either side of this conversation, it's the "old school" people that resonate as having an agenda here. People are yelling at the American players that they blow, they suck, they are terrible at StarCraft, and are justifying it by pointing at their rampant egos; at least in the confines of this thread (again I don't know anyone enough to know about past history) I haven't read anyone say "oh yeah I rule, you suck."
At the most, they've acknowledged what we all do, that there has been a distinct progression in skill such that the current players are stronger than the older players were, and only that in response to strong and extremely general attacks ("trust me, you blow" etc.).
I guess I don't understand where all of the bitterness and insult is getting anyone. The debate about talent is a potentially good one, but its personalization here is useless and frustrating for at least one disinterested party.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
skew and idra you are making ridiculously retarded arguments, I cant believe you even believe this bullshit yourselfs... people arent born with innate abilities? pro teams could just as well pick a random guy off the street to be a progamer? just stop, seriously.
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On October 14 2007 01:08 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I am a lot better player skill wise and in potential than you will ever be.
if skill/potency is a statical attribute like it is claimed by many here then it only refers to the past when he was born.
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On October 14 2007 01:08 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Blade Storm, LT, Nostalgia, Luna those 4 maps then.
You indeed have nothing to gain. If I lose it means I was wrong and lose a bit of my dignity( which I don't even have) However if I beat you, I will fucking mock you for the rest of time and every post you make on tl.net will be followed by LOLOLOL. The fact you even doubt you can beat me on those maps says enough for me.
I am a lot better player skill wise and in potential than you will ever be.
And yes you were playing in 2003, because I fucking remember your name from b.net. Don't lie to me. Or yourself.
k im on west, account IdrA
and i dont doubt that i would beat you on those, or any maps. however if you picked some random ass weird map that id never seen and then proceeded to do some weird cheese, i could conceivably lose.
did you mean now or later?
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hahahaha i love how idra and skew try to cut down "old school" players who have actually done something in starcraft. idra you didnt get anywhere in wcg. if old school players suck,why did FroZ own you?
You try to back your argument with no credibility. "Talent doesn't exist in starcraft only mass practice". You do not have the right to make that statement, simply because you haven't proved it yourself. If it were true all of media would be the best non-koreans, because you guys play more than anyone. But again and again you guys get owned by people with more talent who play a lot less than you do.
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Talent is definitely important and in Korea, where everyone essentially plays, you definitely have to be a special talent. Everyone can play hard, but people start to level off and that's where talent plays.
That being said, it is also dumb to assume that Korea somehow has more talent than the rest of the world. Yes, more people are exposed to the game so they have a large pool of players to pick talent out of, but something's wrong with our system/right with theirs.
Instead of bitching and moaning, as a community we should try and figure out how we can expose the most players to the most effective practice/learning/analyzing system. Until the environments are balanced, how the hell will we know who has talent, etc...?
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So, after 3 months of practice in Korea, I will be expecting anyone who goes there to be willing to play bet games vs me. Because i'm just a retired old fart. And they'll be a practiced gamer.
But seriously, unless anyone is willing to put actual $ where their mouth is concerning korea, they shouldn't even attempt to go.
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On October 14 2007 01:20 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
skew and idra you are making ridiculously retarded arguments, I cant believe you even believe this bullshit yourselfs... people arent born with innate abilities? pro teams could just as well pick a random guy off the street to be a progamer? just stop, seriously.
wow, keep it for yourself, ok? For me, you statement sound so ridiculously I can replace your rhetorical question "people arent born with innate abilities" with "god doesn't exist" and level of ridiculousness won't change. If you think you can prove your claim that some karma or family-tree or genes decide who'll get success and who'll eat dirt you're deeply mistaken. And so long don't even dare to call one's believes bullshit.
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On October 14 2007 01:45 I_are_n00b wrote:
Instead of bitching and moaning, as a community we should try and figure out how we can expose the most players to the most effective practice/learning/analyzing system. Until the environments are balanced, how the hell will we know who has talent, etc...?
This is actually a great point. What if, instead of all of this bitterness and egotistical hot air, all of the magical talent old-schoolers and all of the hard-working new schoolers put their brains behind helping whoever DOES go to Korea? What if the grungy geniuses who gave up because they were too cool to care lent some strategical analysis, and the hard workers did research, testing out strategies and ideas amongst each other, such that a whole community of foreigners are helping practice for every match? Obviously this will never happen, but I do quite like the idea that, if taken advantage of, the foreigner community collectively might have some teeth to bear.
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Since we are talking about foreigners and the topic is really uninteresting to me...
I have an offbeat question. Has there ever been a black guy who was even B+ or so?
He'd be a real marketting hit imo.
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On October 14 2007 02:02 SuperJongMan wrote:
Since we are talking about foreigners and the topic is really uninteresting to me...
I have an offbeat question. Has there ever been a black guy who was even B+ or so?
He'd be a real marketting hit imo.
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On October 14 2007 02:02 SuperJongMan wrote:
Since we are talking about foreigners and the topic is really uninteresting to me...
I have an offbeat question. Has there ever been a black guy who was even B+ or so?
He'd be a real marketting hit imo.
Blackman.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 14 2007 02:08 I_are_n00b wrote:
Hovz -_-d
wtf?
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On October 14 2007 02:03 bine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 02:02 SuperJongMan wrote:
Since we are talking about foreigners and the topic is really uninteresting to me...
I have an offbeat question. Has there ever been a black guy who was even B+ or so?
He'd be a real marketting hit imo.
??? I was genuinely curious. Imagine all the pissed off Koreans when a black dude wins a Starleague. I would kill to be there.
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On October 14 2007 02:12 SuperJongMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 02:03 bine wrote:On October 14 2007 02:02 SuperJongMan wrote:
Since we are talking about foreigners and the topic is really uninteresting to me...
I have an offbeat question. Has there ever been a black guy who was even B+ or so?
He'd be a real marketting hit imo. ??? I was genuinely curious. Imagine all the pissed off Koreans when a black dude wins a Starleague. I would kill to be there.
haha, the odds of a black guy winning a starleague are just as high as a white guy winning one right now..
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I'm a black guy, that considers himself to be good looking and marketable . When I win WCG Trinidad next year, i'll hopefully do to pick off one game from someone; then head straight to korea. I myself have progaming dreams beilieve it or not. But falta skill. kekeke
My kouros[shield] low apm terran would own korea up
Edit: If i do win WCG Trinidad would i be the first black guy in broodwar finals ?
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I guess the smily face was just an amalgamation of a bunch of mild frustrations, like being vaguely (if unintentionally) insulting to black people, digressing from an interesting conversation, entering a conversation while labeling it as disinteresting, etc.
It didn't bother me enough to articulate any of that though, so treat my statements with the utmost mildness (I don't care about any of this at all).
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So, guys, I heard Koreans are good at StarCraft.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On October 14 2007 02:24 pubbanana wrote:
So, guys, I heard Koreans are good at StarCraft.
lol
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Id acctually install bw again, just to watch reps of Idra vs Strafe. Grudge fight ftw!
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Just thought I'd point out that Hot_Bid is right. He's more talented at posting than Skew, but that doesn't mean Skew can't learn to be a good poster too. The problem is that Skew was brought up as an angry poster, while Hot is more convincing with his language. Can Skew learn to be manipulative with language? Yes. Can Testie learn to be one of the Top 50 players in Korea? Or Top 50 DotA players? Or Top 50 poker players? Etc Etc. Of course, that old thing your parents told you.. "You can be anything you want to be?" Well, It's actually true. The problem is, there are varying degrees of everything or anything you might want to be.
Say you want to be the best DotA player in the world. Everyone can be insanely good at DotA, it takes maybe 2 years of practicing the basics to the point of memorization and abusing imbalances in the game to be in your favor. The problem is, you can't ever be the "best". Guess what, do you really think Michael Jordan is the -BEST- athlete ever? He might be the best during his time period, against the people he was competing with, in the eyes of his peers. But why is Einstein sooooo smart, why is Ronaldinho soooo good? They fine tuned their skills (whatever you want to call them, "talents, abilities") to the point that they had an advantage over their peers. Would Maradona or Pele embarass Ronaldinho today? We won't know that. Would Testie be the next Boxer if he was pro-training in Korea at the same time as Boxer? We won't know that either. It's all a bunch of meaningless argument - anyone can be good, being the "best" is just being able to be better than your peers at the time.
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rekrul asshole as always, the smartest and only true guy
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On October 14 2007 02:56 MaGnIfIcA wrote:
Id acctually install bw again, just to watch reps of Idra vs Strafe. Grudge fight ftw!
well you'll have to wait for that since he disappeared as soon as i said id play
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Assem totally ruined these huge ego media people. Don't deny it.
In fact, I played EVERYONE on that lists, but compare to Koreans i played who aren't even top 100,000 in Korea, they are much better than these kids. I seriously fucking laughed when artosis mentioned himself that he is a "mannered" person. What the fuk? You are a seriously fucking awful person when you lose the games. You cant even take the loses from this computer game and whine about the inbalanced maps or cheese shit. That's enough about you already. Be a nice person in real life as usually and act fucking retard on internet when u play computer game.
Honestly I hope either skew or artosis can fucking make it to Korea. I have funny reason for that
p.s. Did assem really pick these players by these media's word? just lol~
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its good to kinda... read the thread(or at least the first post) before posting
assem didnt pick anyone, puertorican did.
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On October 13 2007 22:42 IdrA wrote:
talent is just some ideal all the oldschool players, who were good when no one knew how to play, want to hold on to so they can feel superior to new players.
lol..........just LOL man
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On October 14 2007 03:37 Nal_CrayOn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:42 IdrA wrote:
talent is just some ideal all the oldschool players, who were good when no one knew how to play, want to hold on to so they can feel superior to new players. lol..........just LOL man
On October 14 2007 03:37 IdrA wrote:
its good to kinda... read the thread(or at least the first post) before posting
assem didnt pick anyone, puertorican did.
i read all, only rek mentioned once about purto. He prob picked by media's word anyway. chickens
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k well its nice to make assumptions when you have no clue what you're talking about and stuff..
assem wasnt involved in it at all. puertorican is running the tournament, you'll notice he made the newspost and whatnot.
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On October 13 2007 11:21 Months wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 11:11 yubee wrote:On October 13 2007 11:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
oh shut the hell up physician hahahaha ROFL
LMFAO
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I can ask people around on forum if i want.
just STOP trying to defence every word on to assem. I wasn't harassing any to ur god on sc, was asking if he fucking picked these players or not. And from i see the fucking player lists, u people are OBVIOUSLY involved in this. Dont even act u are not. "themachine"?
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On October 14 2007 02:56 MaGnIfIcA wrote:
Id acctually install bw again, just to watch reps of Idra vs Strafe. Grudge fight ftw!
2nd'ed
edit: except my bw is already installed
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On October 14 2007 00:43 LaMoj wrote:
What about SunCow. Why didnt he "make it" ? Was it bcuz of lack of "talent," or a horrible attitude. I thought that he was actually good in all 3 matchups. And by his apm charts i would say that he had good dexterity.
suncow sucked a lot, he wasnt even close to any of the top notch foreigners when he went to korea. he was really horrible.
in zvst got trashed by random korean terrans, zvsz nowhere near korean skill, not sure about zvsp but probably as sucky as his zvst.
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On October 14 2007 03:46 Nal_CrayOn wrote:
I can ask people around on forum if i want.
just STOP trying to defence every word on to assem. I wasn't harassing any to ur god on sc, was asking if he fucking picked these players or not. And from i see the fucking player lists, u people are OBVIOUSLY involved in this. Dont even act u are not. "themachine"?
what the fuck are you talking about
just because media players are in it assem must have picked us?
what north american players deserve to be in instead of us?
puerto didnt invite oldy because he admitted to hacking, testie had a spot but turned it down since hes gonna be in china and already has the cj invite. tt1 refuses to play anything anymore since he 'quit europe'. who else would you rather have in?
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Clan X17 is better i think
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On October 14 2007 04:30 CultureMisfits wrote:
Clan X17 is better i think
/endsarcasm?
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Well put it this way, a non talented player will practice 12 hours a day and reach a level.
A talented player will only practice 6 hours and reach that same level.
I agree 100% with Hot-Bid
anyways,
The tournament is a good opportunity for a great experience. Good luck to everyone participating.
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To be honest, I think the list of players is alright, because anyone else who is better / deserves a spot either doesn't want it, or isn't playing anymore.
For example, I think Raptor and Bandit would be great choices, but theyre both really ianctive atm, and as far as USA players go, Chosen could have been a nice pick for example isntead of Nesh / Evade or something since I don't even think they've played at all since WCG, and Chosen is really really active and improving right now.
Other than that, I think the player list is pretty good...
Different topic, I'd love to see Strafe vs Idra . hope Strafe doesn't bitch out now that Idra actually accepted it.
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OKAY
I'll just post here because Steven posted. And it made me laugh, because on msn he just pretends this site doesn't exist while he actually reads it.
Most of you ppl here, but very very very very few, don't have any fucking clue what pro gaming truely is.
I often read up this site, because I can find links to vods. And I often come across some of the most retarded comments about starcraft there can be. Some can be legendary actually.
It's truely entertaining. And I myself think that rekrul started this thread to have some fun.
You need potential and talent to be at the top. Talent increases and develops its potential with practice. But if you knew shit about pro gaming in korea, if you'd have been there, seen it with your own eyes, lived in and from it, you'd knew that your so called "insane practice" is very natural to talented players and nothing really special they keep bringing up and braging about.
When I see some of you talking about pro gamer's perfomances in leagues and judging their skills makes me very much laugh. Do you actually have any idea of how hard and fucked up it can be to go through the prelimns ?
Have you ever once in your life, every witnessed a starcraft lan with pro gamers other than the shitty wcg ? That would blow you. Because before you get there, and actually see it, there is no way to actually "imagine" it.
You have to know as well, the koreans see the game and its dephts in a very different way than foreigners do. Korean players don't think and argue and debate the game as much we do. Furthermore, they don't communicate alot between each others and keep jealously replays away from sights.
The standards you use to debate and understand progaming are foreign standards. Unexperienced standards, leading you to wrong assumptions.
What rekrul said is 750% true.
The only two players that ever had any good shot at pro gaming were grrrr and elky. Elky having a difference with grrrr as he never got any special treatment or wildcard to any league.
All others that have gone korea failed. Including me, prolly the worst one^^. But, I was very young and I didn't give a shit. I mostly played diablo 2 as any form of practice for tournaments.
Now someone said somewhere "smuft" sucked. To that person, and his friends, if he has some, as I was very close to Steven when he was in Korea with elky, and helped him out, I can assure you that ammongst all the foreigners that ever gone to korea, this kid had the most potential. He was the one who could go top 5 gamei at its golden age in 3 days after reset. He was the one to destroy top korean zergs while eating or drinking something, going 4 packs of DTs against pure hydralisks. As for some facts, plz know that archoncap (nal'ra) basically started to get famous after copying smuft's pvz strats and high scoring gamebug / gamei, and that it was even posted on korean boards that Nal'ra was a fucking poser of smuft.
Most of you are newcomers, and rekrul is right when he says this lineup is filled by 3rd class newbies of the old days. This is not a flame, that's a fucking fact. Only a very young and unknown player that would show up would have any actual chance to do something in korea. If you've been "trying" since all this time, and didn't succeed, that basically mean you suck.
Please also, refrain from commenting grrrr... as he is and will remain, with boxer, oov, nada, (prolly on top of them) the best player of all times. Grrrr... was a phenomenum, and would still be if he didnt give up starcraft already in 2000. You people have no fucking clue who Guillaume was. Nobody ever played like him.
None of you on this site, and outside korea, but a very few, have any fucking skill to tell what "talent" is in this game.
At last, if you think that misregarded and crappy tournament WCG is, constitutes any form of proof for someone's potenatial to do good in korea, then you should forget about commentating starcraft.
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I still didnt see inc posting here?
bug
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and come on, lets face it... none of these guys are gonna get good practicing with estro players
ELIZA FTW!!!!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 13 2007 22:42 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 19:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On October 13 2007 19:44 Skew wrote:
"Talent" doesn't exist. How you learn or how good you use what you know is all based on past experience. Unless of course you're 100IQ and the other person is 200IQ, which still isn't talent. Talent is that magical word we all like to use to make ourselves or someone else feel good, but that doesn't make it real. Sorry. Anyone in that list could become an amazing player if they were on a professional team for long enough.
When you mention how Artosis and others don't improve a lot it's very true, they/he doesn't. But it's not because of this magical thing you call "talent" -- it's because he's an idiot and plays newbies all night. If he'd ever practice correctly (vs people who don't suck), he'd learn as quick as anyone else. Fact.
that's not true at all dude. are you not physically aware that all of those ideal conditions already exist and there's still a huge disparity in skill between someone like Bisu and someone like Jju? how come cj turns out monster player after monster player while other teams can barely get someone into a starleague?
How come Orion isn't as good as Savior?
edit: i dont expect you to respond after responding to hotbid so many times, but this is what it comes down to. talent DOES exist, and while its not a huge factor, it does make a difference. skew is wrong on what he said in the first quote
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Agreed with rekrul..... i suggest people to find something else their good at. Starcraft just seriously is not where it's at.... you can mkae a lot more working at a fastfood or grocery store on the time wasted practicing. Yes i said it... WASTED. But then again if that's your thing then go for it, but rekrul is giving you guys good advice. And i think he's more qualified to say stuff about this matter maybe except for giyom and elky. The odds are highly stacked against you.... you are going against INSANE number of koreans that are INSANE about starcraft, unless you are an INSANE korean that loves sc that much then go for it. I'd like to see how you do.
I suggest poker... it takes a bit less skill but im not sure about middle-high stakes.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 14 2007 04:50 French wrote:
words
Who are you
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Steven was directed to Smuft.
Not you.
And i'm french.
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On October 14 2007 04:50 French wrote:
OKAY
I'll just post here because Steven posted. And it made me laugh, because on msn he just pretends this site doesn't exist while he actually reads it.
Most of you ppl here, but very very very very few, don't have any fucking clue what pro gaming truely is.
I often read up this site, because I can find links to vods. And I often come across some of the most retarded comments about starcraft there can be. Some can be legendary actually.
It's truely entertaining. And I myself think that rekrul started this thread to have some fun.
You need potential and talent to be at the top. Talent increases and develops its potential with practice. But if you knew shit about pro gaming in korea, if you'd have been there, seen it with your own eyes, lived in and from it, you'd knew that your so called "insane practice" is very natural to talented players and nothing really special they keep bringing up and braging about.
When I see some of you talking about pro gamer's perfomances in leagues and judging their skills makes me very much laugh. Do you actually have any idea of how hard and fucked up it can be to go through the prelimns ?
Have you ever once in your life, every witnessed a starcraft lan with pro gamers other than the shitty wcg ? That would blow you. Because before you get there, and actually see it, there is no way to actually "imagine" it.
You have to know as well, the koreans see the game and its dephts in a very different way than foreigners do. Korean players don't think and argue and debate the game as much we do. Furthermore, they don't communicate alot between each others and keep jealously replays away from sights.
The standards you use to debate and understand progaming are foreign standards. Unexperienced standards, leading you to wrong assumptions.
What rekrul said is 750% true.
The only two players that ever had any good shot at pro gaming were grrrr and elky. Elky having a difference with grrrr as he never got any special treatment or wildcard to any league.
All others that have gone korea failed. Including me, prolly the worst one^^. But, I was very young and I didn't give a shit. I mostly played diablo 2 as any form of practice for tournaments.
Now someone said somewhere "smuft" sucked. To that person, and his friends, if he has some, as I was very close to Steven when he was in Korea with elky, and helped him out, I can assure you that ammongst all the foreigners that ever gone to korea, this kid had the most potential. He was the one who could go top 5 gamei at its golden age in 3 days after reset. He was the one to destroy top korean zergs while eating or drinking something, going 4 packs of DTs against pure hydralisks. As for some facts, plz know that archoncap (nal'ra) basically started to get famous after copying smuft's pvz strats and high scoring gamebug / gamei, and that it was even posted on korean boards that Nal'ra was a fucking poser of smuft.
Most of you are newcomers, and rekrul is right when he says this lineup is filled by 3rd class newbies of the old days. This is not a flame, that's a fucking fact. Only a very young and unknown player that would show up would have any actual chance to do something in korea. If you've been "trying" since all this time, and didn't succeed, that basically mean you suck.
Please also, refrain from commenting grrrr... as he is and will remain, with boxer, oov, nada, (prolly on top of them) the best player of all times. Grrrr... was a phenomenum, and would still be if he didnt give up starcraft already in 2000. You people have no fucking clue who Guillaume was. Nobody ever played like him.
None of you on this site, and outside korea, but a very few, have any fucking skill to tell what "talent" is in this game.
At last, if you think that misregarded and crappy tournament WCG is, constitutes any form of proof for someone's potenatial to do good in korea, then you should forget about commentating starcraft.
There is medicine to cure you. Ask some doctor.
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Guys, he really did go to Korea. His ID was FrenChBOy and he played in one (or two? I don't remember) of the Game-Q leagues.
I don't think he did anything after that, though.
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The "i'm a clueless newbie" pills many already took ?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 14 2007 05:37 French wrote:
Steven was directed to Smuft.
Not you.
And i'm french.
I know who you were talking about, don't come in here guns blazing and refuse to name yourself.
If you figure anyone should give a fuck about what you have to say you'd better give a reason, with a post like that
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On October 14 2007 05:43 pubbanana wrote:
Guys, he really did go to Korea. His ID was FrenChBOy and he played in one (or two? I don't remember) of the Game-Q leagues.
I don't think he did anything after that, though.
I did, I roamed nightclubs for rich ladies.
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On October 14 2007 05:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
I know who you were talking about, don't come in here guns blazing and refuse to name yourself.
If you figure anyone should give a fuck about what you have to say you'd better give a reason, with a post like that
I just wanted to skip the "I am this dude, done that" part. Like the guns blazing part tho.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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If "talent" doesent exist then why the the fuck did Donald Thomas win the mens high jump after only competing for 2 years versus people that have been practicing all their lives? Why is it that people that get to play in NHL/NFL/NBA teams at very young ages are better then guuys that have been playing/practicing the sport of choice in 20 years? The old guys have been slacking for 20 years?
Arguing that talent does not exist is the single most retarded shit i have ever heard!
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On October 13 2007 22:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:rek prolly has more talent than pretty much everyone on that list.
Then why's he sitting here bitching instead of proving it?
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On October 14 2007 05:42 ForAdun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 04:50 French wrote:
OKAY
I'll just post here because Steven posted. And it made me laugh, because on msn he just pretends this site doesn't exist while he actually reads it.
Most of you ppl here, but very very very very few, don't have any fucking clue what pro gaming truely is.
I often read up this site, because I can find links to vods. And I often come across some of the most retarded comments about starcraft there can be. Some can be legendary actually.
It's truely entertaining. And I myself think that rekrul started this thread to have some fun.
You need potential and talent to be at the top. Talent increases and develops its potential with practice. But if you knew shit about pro gaming in korea, if you'd have been there, seen it with your own eyes, lived in and from it, you'd knew that your so called "insane practice" is very natural to talented players and nothing really special they keep bringing up and braging about.
When I see some of you talking about pro gamer's perfomances in leagues and judging their skills makes me very much laugh. Do you actually have any idea of how hard and fucked up it can be to go through the prelimns ?
Have you ever once in your life, every witnessed a starcraft lan with pro gamers other than the shitty wcg ? That would blow you. Because before you get there, and actually see it, there is no way to actually "imagine" it.
You have to know as well, the koreans see the game and its dephts in a very different way than foreigners do. Korean players don't think and argue and debate the game as much we do. Furthermore, they don't communicate alot between each others and keep jealously replays away from sights.
The standards you use to debate and understand progaming are foreign standards. Unexperienced standards, leading you to wrong assumptions.
What rekrul said is 750% true.
The only two players that ever had any good shot at pro gaming were grrrr and elky. Elky having a difference with grrrr as he never got any special treatment or wildcard to any league.
All others that have gone korea failed. Including me, prolly the worst one^^. But, I was very young and I didn't give a shit. I mostly played diablo 2 as any form of practice for tournaments.
Now someone said somewhere "smuft" sucked. To that person, and his friends, if he has some, as I was very close to Steven when he was in Korea with elky, and helped him out, I can assure you that ammongst all the foreigners that ever gone to korea, this kid had the most potential. He was the one who could go top 5 gamei at its golden age in 3 days after reset. He was the one to destroy top korean zergs while eating or drinking something, going 4 packs of DTs against pure hydralisks. As for some facts, plz know that archoncap (nal'ra) basically started to get famous after copying smuft's pvz strats and high scoring gamebug / gamei, and that it was even posted on korean boards that Nal'ra was a fucking poser of smuft.
Most of you are newcomers, and rekrul is right when he says this lineup is filled by 3rd class newbies of the old days. This is not a flame, that's a fucking fact. Only a very young and unknown player that would show up would have any actual chance to do something in korea. If you've been "trying" since all this time, and didn't succeed, that basically mean you suck.
Please also, refrain from commenting grrrr... as he is and will remain, with boxer, oov, nada, (prolly on top of them) the best player of all times. Grrrr... was a phenomenum, and would still be if he didnt give up starcraft already in 2000. You people have no fucking clue who Guillaume was. Nobody ever played like him.
None of you on this site, and outside korea, but a very few, have any fucking skill to tell what "talent" is in this game.
At last, if you think that misregarded and crappy tournament WCG is, constitutes any form of proof for someone's potenatial to do good in korea, then you should forget about commentating starcraft.
There is medicine to cure you. Ask some doctor.
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On October 14 2007 05:50 exo6yte wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 22:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:rek prolly has more talent than pretty much everyone on that list. Then why's he sitting here bitching instead of proving it?
Poker is the answer you were looking for.
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On October 14 2007 05:49 Edguy wrote:
If "talent" doesent exist then why the the fuck did Donald Thomas win the mens high jump after only competing for 2 years versus people that have been practicing all their lives? Why is it that people that get to play in NHL/NFL/NBA teams at very young ages are better then guuys that have been playing/practicing the sport of choice in 20 years? The old guys have been slacking for 20 years?
Arguing that talent does not exist is the single most retarded shit i have ever heard!
they spoke about a game named starcraft
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Whatever happens, at the end of the day, who ever wins this tournement is going to go to Korea and have a huge reality check.
I don't think many of us can really argue against Rek when he's been to Korea, sat in the practice rooms and played in the prelim tournies. We watch reps, we watch vods, some of us are know/skilled enough to get games from top koreans. But at the end of the day, go play in a tourney against people who have been hardcore practicing for 14 hours a day, everyday and have the pressure on them not to fail; only then can you really gain a true understanding of what seperates us from the f3aReD koReaNz.
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On October 14 2007 02:44 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 02:24 pubbanana wrote:
So, guys, I heard Koreans are good at StarCraft. lol
A korean beat me once. I was like "no rush 20 mins" and he did these wierd meneuvers with his zealots that resaulted in me beind dead and him not losing a single zealot.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
as i see it the dispute is this, whether the gap between koreans and nonkoreans is due to talent or environment. the two empirical claims of consequence, assuming talent exists and matters at the top level, are the talent level of koreans, and teh talent level of nonkoreans. and for this discussion, the talent level of nonkoreans is the main point of contention.
at this point then, it is not a disagreement over general principles, but claims about talent level of specific individuals. i do not see the point of examining these claims by way of contending general principles of talent/training/game evolution.
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On October 13 2007 11:11 yubee wrote:hahahaha
omfg, lmao i totally skimmed that post and then I read what steve wrote and realized that it was him and LMAO
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I think environment has a huge influence; our societies are too different. A non-korean starcraft player is dedicating himself to something that isn't socially excepted and lives with the destractions and negative influences (negaitve meaning; influences that aren't positive/starcraft) and have much more to fall back on interms of career/lifestyle/etc. In Korea, one actually chooses to make Starcraft their LIFE, their career. A korean starcraft player can put the same ammount of passion into getting good at starcraft as someone in north american society would to succeed in school and college/university. I think, no matter how passionate you are (as a north american) about starcraft, our environment can't sustain that passion, and therefore will never have the same ambition to succeed and be that good.
I think we all need to read Boxer's blog again. The ammount of desire, ambition and passion he had to succeed as a Starcraft progamer is almost uncomprehendable; well for me atleast.
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Rekrul, ever heard the phrase ignorance is bliss?
It'd be much nicer/reasonable for you to stay out of other people's business (like Artosis). I don't think he did anything that was especially BM that called for this. So unless you just like being a downer towards other people and have people be like "LOLZ rekrul pwnzered him" there's no positive value to doing this especially when you pick on a seemingly undeserving target.
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On October 13 2007 23:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
you don't think creativity and innovation are talent-based things? i don't think you can manufacture a great artist.
are you saying then, that if you were born to boxer's family and did exactly what boxer did during his life then you would be exactly the same as him? isn't that kind of a ridiculous statement?
why do proteams even bother selectively recruiting then? they can just take random people off the street.
Its almost like they believe that everything in life is predetermined and they have no true free will.
On October 13 2007 22:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
man that last line (in idra's post) is about the grudgiest crock of shit ive read
there's a huge difference in talent between socalled newschool players too. the difference is that now it's possible to become a good player without a significant amount of talent (but not a top player, top players still need significant talent) , while 5-10 years ago, it honestly wasn't.
Totally agree with that. Even on b.net vs pubs. I don't know if they all just maphack, or all finally know how to play, or what but even the sorriest low apm noobs can play pretty damn close to the top players just on build orders and practice alone.
Over the years natural ability to learn and strategize are getting broken down more and more into an exacting science. Especially with the maps they churn out lately. They are all designed for macro based FE builds and timing attacks. Its not like the old times where a pure strategist could win the majority of games, it just doesn't work anymore because the straight up solid builds are so good now they almost have no holes or flaws.
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so where the fuck is strafe...
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On October 14 2007 04:25 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 03:46 Nal_CrayOn wrote:
I can ask people around on forum if i want.
just STOP trying to defence every word on to assem. I wasn't harassing any to ur god on sc, was asking if he fucking picked these players or not. And from i see the fucking player lists, u people are OBVIOUSLY involved in this. Dont even act u are not. "themachine"? what the fuck are you talking about just because media players are in it assem must have picked us? what north american players deserve to be in instead of us? puerto didnt invite oldy because he admitted to hacking, testie had a spot but turned it down since hes gonna be in china and already has the cj invite. tt1 refuses to play anything anymore since he 'quit europe'. who else would you rather have in?
me
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so basically you went on a rant about how assem is rigging it for media, even though he isnt involved at all, and bitched about how bad everyone in it is.. just because you're mad you didnt get a spot?
ask puertorican why he didnt invite you instead of talking about shit you dont know on a public forum.
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