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On January 24 2019 14:22 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 11:50 xDaunt wrote: Oh, and as a relevant aside, Venezuela is a perfect example of why the Second Amendment matters. An armed populace would be able to more easily get rid of Maduro. Oh come on. Poor taste and worse logic. Let's just pretend that you're a Venezuelan citizen living under Maduro's thumb right now. What hope do you have of getting rid of Maduro other than an armed rebellion?
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On January 24 2019 22:53 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 14:22 IgnE wrote:On January 24 2019 11:50 xDaunt wrote: Oh, and as a relevant aside, Venezuela is a perfect example of why the Second Amendment matters. An armed populace would be able to more easily get rid of Maduro. Oh come on. Poor taste and worse logic. Let's just pretend that you're a Venezuelan citizen living under Maduro's thumb right now. What hope do you have of getting rid of Maduro other than an armed rebellion?
CIA, US military, Fascist Brazilian neighbor to name a few.
Winning an election is an option if you're not a "capitalist pig".
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On January 24 2019 18:15 iamthedave wrote: Doesn't SA's horrendous (truly horrendous) record on human rights and state-level oppression of women have some influence on this? Or is the economy god-king of your world and it doesn't matter how bad the people are treated so long as someone's getting rich?
Like I've said before, I will stipulate to the fact that the Saudis are terrible. But their brand of "terrible" does not approach Maduro's. I don't get what is so hard understand about the fact that Maduro has literally created a humanitarian crisis and destroyed Venezuela. It's not about people getting rich. It's about whether people even have something to eat.
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On January 24 2019 22:55 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 18:15 iamthedave wrote: Doesn't SA's horrendous (truly horrendous) record on human rights and state-level oppression of women have some influence on this? Or is the economy god-king of your world and it doesn't matter how bad the people are treated so long as someone's getting rich? Like I've said before, I will stipulate to the fact that the Saudis are terrible. But their brand of "terrible" does not approach Maduro's. I don't get what is so hard understand about the fact that Maduro has literally created a humanitarian crisis and destroyed Venezuela. It's not about people getting rich. It's about whether people even have something to eat.
Do you know where these anti- Maduro protests have been happening in Venezuela? Do you have any idea about the demographics, particularly along lines of class or how popular the opposition actually is?
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On January 24 2019 22:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 22:53 xDaunt wrote:On January 24 2019 14:22 IgnE wrote:On January 24 2019 11:50 xDaunt wrote: Oh, and as a relevant aside, Venezuela is a perfect example of why the Second Amendment matters. An armed populace would be able to more easily get rid of Maduro. Oh come on. Poor taste and worse logic. Let's just pretend that you're a Venezuelan citizen living under Maduro's thumb right now. What hope do you have of getting rid of Maduro other than an armed rebellion? CIA, US military, Fascist Brazilian neighbor to name a few. Winning an election is an option if you're not a "capitalist pig". Well, yeah, foreign intervention is one option, but it cannot be relied upon.
But for what it's worth, I do think that there's a reasonable possibility that Brazil and/or Columbia invade Venezuela with US backing. There have been rumors to this effect for a while now. Now that the US and most of Latin America has openly declared for Guaido and given that Trump is actively baiting Maduro to solicit US military intervention by refusing to pull American diplomats from Venezuela, foreign intervention may even be likely.
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On January 24 2019 16:12 IgnE wrote: What do xdaunt and danglars and the rest here think of the Tucker Carlson soliloquy? You really think I watch Fox News? Ask me what I think of Maddow’s latest on impeachment why don’t you. Fox had a couple good straight news reporters writing articles for the website, and sometimes Special Report breaks something, but other than that they’ve got nada.
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On January 24 2019 23:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 22:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 24 2019 22:53 xDaunt wrote:On January 24 2019 14:22 IgnE wrote:On January 24 2019 11:50 xDaunt wrote: Oh, and as a relevant aside, Venezuela is a perfect example of why the Second Amendment matters. An armed populace would be able to more easily get rid of Maduro. Oh come on. Poor taste and worse logic. Let's just pretend that you're a Venezuelan citizen living under Maduro's thumb right now. What hope do you have of getting rid of Maduro other than an armed rebellion? CIA, US military, Fascist Brazilian neighbor to name a few. Winning an election is an option if you're not a "capitalist pig". Well, yeah, foreign intervention is one option, but it cannot be relied upon. But for what it's worth, I do think that there's a reasonable possibility that Brazil and/or Columbia invade Venezuela with US backing. There have been rumors to this effect for a while now. Now that the US and most of Latin America has openly declared for Guaido and given that Trump is actively baiting Maduro to solicit US military intervention by refusing to pull American diplomats from Venezuela, foreign intervention may even be likely.
If you're in an even nominally socialist country you can.
Buuut...
Do you know where these anti-Maduro protests have been happening in Venezuela? Do you have any idea about the demographics, particularly along lines of class or how popular the opposition actually is?
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The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYT
Ross Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get.
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On January 24 2019 23:23 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYTRoss Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get.
Not really but I can certainly see arguments about the medias reaction (I didn't bother to check if any of that is actually sourced) that are fair. Most of it reads as today's version of the white liberal who disapproved of MLK in the 60's to me though.
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On January 24 2019 05:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 03:51 iamthedave wrote:On January 23 2019 23:48 xDaunt wrote:On January 23 2019 23:39 Doodsmack wrote:On January 23 2019 15:02 xDaunt wrote:On January 23 2019 14:39 Danglars wrote:On January 23 2019 12:42 xDaunt wrote:I doubt anyone is really surprised that the Clintons are one of the main parties behind the Trump/Russia collusion nonsense: When at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. That’s what Hillary Clinton’s machine did in 2016, eventually getting the FBI to bite on an uncorroborated narrative that Donald Trump and Russia were trying to hijack the presidential election.
Between July and October 2016, Clinton-connected lawyers, emissaries and apologists made more than a half-dozen overtures to U.S. officials, each tapping a political connection to get suspect evidence into FBI counterintelligence agents’ hands, according to internal documents and testimonies I reviewed and interviews I conducted.
In each situation, the overture was uninvited. And as the election drew closer, the point of contact moved higher up the FBI chain.
It was, as one of my own FBI sources called it, a “classic case of information saturation” designed to inject political opposition research into a counterintelligence machinery that should have suspected a political dirty trick was underway.
Ex-FBI general counsel James Baker, one of the more senior bureau executives to be targeted, gave a memorable answer when congressional investigators asked how attorney Michael Sussmann from the Perkins Coie law firm, which represented the Clinton campaign and Democratic Party, came to personally deliver him dirt on Trump.
“You’d have to ask him why he decided to pick me,” Baker said last year in testimony that has not yet been released publicly. The FBI’s top lawyer turned over a calendar notation to Congress, indicating that he met Sussmann on Sept. 19, 2016, less than two months before Election Day.
Sussmann’s firm paid Glenn Simpson’s Fusion GPS opposition-research firm to hire British intelligence operative Christopher Steele to create the now-infamous dossier suggesting Trump and Moscow colluded during the 2016 election.
By the time Sussmann reached out, Steele’s dossier already was inside the FBI. Sussmann augmented it with cyber evidence that he claimed showed a further connection between the GOP campaign and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Some was put on a thumb drive, according to Baker.
Baker’s detailed account illustrates how a political connection — Sussmann and Baker knew each other — was leveraged to get anti-Trump research to FBI leaders.
“[Sussmann] told me he had cyber experts that had obtained some information that they thought they should get into the hands of the FBI,” Baker testified.
“I referred this to investigators, and I believe they made a record of it,” he testified, adding that he believed he reached out to Peter Strzok, the agent in charge of the Russia case, or William Priestap, the head of FBI counterintelligence.
“Please come get this,” he recalled telling his colleagues. Baker acknowledged it was not the normal way for counterintelligence evidence to enter the FBI.
But when the bureau’s top lawyer makes a request, things happen in the rank-and-file.
The overture was neither the first nor the last instance of Clinton-connected Trump dirt reaching the FBI.
The tsunami began when former MI6 agent Steele first approached an FBI supervisor, his handler in an earlier criminal case, in London. That approach remarkably occurred on July 5, 2016, the same day then-FBI Director James Comey announced he would not pursue criminal charges against Clinton for mishandling classified emails on a private server.
If ever there were a day for the Clinton campaign to want to change the public narrative, it was July 5, 2016.
But the bureau apparently did not initially embrace Steele’s research, and no immediate action was taken, according to congressional investigators who have been briefed.
That’s when the escalation began.
During a trip to Washington later that month, Steele reached out to two political contacts with the credentials to influence the FBI.
Then-senior State Department official Jonathan Winer, who worked for then-Secretary John Kerry, wrote that Steele first approached him in the summer with his Trump research and then met again with him in September. Winer consulted his boss, Assistant Secretary for Eurasia Affairs Victoria Nuland, who said she first learned of Steele’s allegations in late July and urged Winer to send it to the FBI.
(If you need further intrigue, Winer worked from 2008 to 2013 for the lobbying and public relations firm APCO Worldwide, the same firm that was a contractor for both the Clinton Global Initiative and Russia’s main nuclear fuel company that won big decisions from the Obama administration.)
When the State Department office that oversees Russian affairs sends something to the FBI, agents take note.
But Steele was hardly done. He reached out to his longtime Justice Department contact, Bruce Ohr, then a deputy to Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates. Steele had breakfast July 30, 2016, with Ohr and his wife, Nellie, to discuss the Russia-Trump dirt.
(To thicken the plot, you should know that Nellie Ohr was a Russia expert working at the time for the same Fusion GPS firm that hired Steele and was hired by the Clinton campaign through Sussmann’s Perkins Coie.)
Bruce Ohr immediately took Steele’s dirt on July 31, 2016, to then-FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe.
When the deputy attorney general’s office contacts the FBI, things happen. And, soon, Ohr was connected to the agents running the new Russia probe.
Around the same time, Australia’s ambassador to London, Alexander Downer, reached out to U.S. officials. Like so many characters in this narrative, Downer had his own connection to the Clintons: He secured a $25 million donation from Australia’s government to the Clinton Foundation in the early 2000s.
Downer claims WikiLeaks’s release of hacked Clinton emails that month caused him to remember a conversation in May, in a London tavern, with a Trump adviser named George Papadopoulos. So he reported it to the FBI.
The saturation campaign kept building. Sometime in September, Winer and Nuland got another version of Steele-like research suggesting Trump-Russia collusion, this time from known associates of the Clintons: Sidney Blumenthal and Cody Shearer.
Again, it was sent to the FBI.
Sussmann’s contact with Baker at the FBI occurred that same month.
By mid-September — less than a month before Election Day — there likely was agitation inside the Clinton machine: After so many overtures to the FBI, there was no visible sign of an investigation.
Simpson and Steele began briefing reporters with the hope of getting the word out. It is taboo for an FBI source such as Steele to talk to the media about his work. Yet, he took the risk, eventually getting fired for it, according to FBI documents.
Baker, the FBI’s top lawyer, testified to Congress that he was clearly aware Simpson’s team was shopping the media. “My understanding at the time was that Simpson was going around Washington giving this out to a lot of different people and trying to elevate its profile,” Baker told congressional investigators.
Ohr, through his contacts with Steele and Simpson, also knew the media had been contacted. In handwritten notes from late 2016, Ohr quoted Simpson as saying his outreach to reporters was a “Hail Mary attempt” to sway voters.
The next and final overture came from one of Clinton’s top acolytes in Congress.
Then-Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, having been briefed by then-CIA Director John Brennan on the Russia allegations, sent a letter to the FBI in late October demanding to know if agents were pursuing the evidence. Before long, the letter leaked.
The political pressure from Team Clinton had come from many directions: State, Congress, Justice, a top Democratic lawyer.
Yet, no one in the FBI seemed to tap the brakes, noticing the obvious: Its counterintelligence apparatus was being weaponized with political opposition research from one campaign against its rival.
Leaking. Politically motivated evidence. Ex parte contacts outside the normal FBI evidence-gathering chain.
None of it seemed to raise a red flag.
That is a troubling legacy. Source. For what it's worth, others sources are starting to report on the same narrative. Baker's testimony about Sussman's overtures is reported on here here and Nunes is now openly talking about Clinton involvement. Tonight, in news that is not surprising in the least. How much of recent reporting due to (1) Clinton’s losing their political power (2) the thought that Trump’s administration might do it to the next one (3) future anti-leak investigations by Barr? I don't think that (1) or (2) matter. With regards to (2) specifically, Trump doesn't have sufficient control of the FBI and DOJ to pull off what was done to him. (3) may be having a bit of an influence on things. It's been widely reported -- and I agree -- that Mueller disavowed the Buzzfeed story because he knew that Barr would likely fire his ass if he didn't. The more likely explanation for why this stuff is coming now is because Trump wants it to start coming out now. Keep in mind that, as the president, he has all of the relevant information at his fingertips. He knows what happened, and he has absolute control over disclosure. Some congressional or senate committee members may be leaking stuff on their own accord, but I think that it is more likely that they'd coordinate with Trump on this. The fact that Steele reached out to 4 or 5 different people in the US government could just be because he had prior contact with those people and had worked with them before. Recall that Steele did regular work with the FBI prior to the dossier (which demonstrated the general reliability of his Russian sources). Steele's own overtures don't demonstrate a "Clinton machine" effort. Solomon's logical reasoning has been wanting lately. Good thing the article doesn’t just mention what Steele did. Out of curiousity, how do you determine that this article is trustworthy, given how quickly you jump to dismiss any articles that suggests things you don't like? First, Solomon's reporting on this stuff has appeared to be very accurate so far. Second, and like I pointed out, the main thrust of this article was corroborated by two other outlets. And no, I don't dismiss "articles that suggest things I don't like" out of hand as you imply. Take that Buzzfeed article that came up last week as an example. I didn't believe it as soon as I saw it because 1) it was Buzzfeed as opposed to NYT, and 2) the claims were close to preposterous given what we already knew about Cohen's story. Nevertheless, I sat on my criticisms and waited for the seemingly inevitable debunking, which none other than Mueller promptly delivered. As a relevant aside, and if you may recall, the same allegations of Russia collusion were made against McCain during the 2008 election. In fact, take a look at the names that pop up, they should all be familiar: Manafort, Kislyak, Deripaska, etc. Hell, Glenn Simpson [of Fusion GPS, who hired Steele] even wrote an Op Ed about Russian collusion back in 2007. What are the odds that the same allegations of Russian collusion would be made against Hillary's expected GOP opponent in two separate presidential campaigns, that the same alleged Russian operatives would be involved in the same plot, and that the same opposition research people would be involved in peddling the story each time for the benefit of the same presidential candidate? To be 100% clear, I'll wait for the real damning evidence to come out (and it apparently is coming given the pace of the leaks) before making any definitive conclusions, but every single person in the US should be asking themselves some very serious questions about what they have been told about this Russia nonsense and why.
You have very clearly already come to definitive conclusions about pretty much all of this.
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On January 24 2019 23:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 23:23 Danglars wrote:The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYTRoss Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get. Not really but I can certainly see arguments about the medias reaction (I didn't bother to check if any of that is actually sourced) that are fair. Most of it reads as today's version of the white liberal who disapproved of MLK in the 60's to me though.
All of the talk is just dancing around what it really is; a powerful image that summarises trends in society. Trying to narrow down specifics is actually irrelevant because it's an image that means something sans context. Same as I don't know the context of the image it's compared to (the one with the kids crowding a black kid at a bar). For all I know the black kid was a real jerk and brought it on himself. It doesn't matter whether he did or he didn't; the image speaks for itself and it stands for something larger than the individual moment that birthed it.
Same here. The media playing its spin war with the story that birthed it doesn't matter; that image is a powerful one that'll have a life of its own for quite some time.
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On January 25 2019 00:23 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 23:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 24 2019 23:23 Danglars wrote:The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYTRoss Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get. Not really but I can certainly see arguments about the medias reaction (I didn't bother to check if any of that is actually sourced) that are fair. Most of it reads as today's version of the white liberal who disapproved of MLK in the 60's to me though. All of the talk is just dancing around what it really is; a powerful image that summarises trends in society. Trying to narrow down specifics is actually irrelevant because it's an image that means something sans context. Same as I don't know the context of the image it's compared to (the one with the kids crowding a black kid at a bar). For all I know the black kid was a real jerk and brought it on himself. It doesn't matter whether he did or he didn't; the image speaks for itself and it stands for something larger than the individual moment that birthed it. .
Hmmm... This is an idea that works, but doesn't actually solve the problem of some kid being given a load of shit from international press sources and getting doxxed for no other reason that he wore a MAGA hat and attended and anti-abortion rally.
The same culture that drove this incident has done the same to many other people. The mainstream press has devolved into a more official looking version of 4chan at this point. All pitchforks, no facts.
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On January 25 2019 00:23 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 23:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 24 2019 23:23 Danglars wrote:The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYTRoss Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get. Not really but I can certainly see arguments about the medias reaction (I didn't bother to check if any of that is actually sourced) that are fair. Most of it reads as today's version of the white liberal who disapproved of MLK in the 60's to me though. All of the talk is just dancing around what it really is; a powerful image that summarises trends in society. Trying to narrow down specifics is actually irrelevant because it's an image that means something sans context. Same as I don't know the context of the image it's compared to (the one with the kids crowding a black kid at a bar). For all I know the black kid was a real jerk and brought it on himself. It doesn't matter whether he did or he didn't; the image speaks for itself and it stands for something larger than the individual moment that birthed it. Same here.
It really is and on levels we didn't even really cover much here. I feel like I just rip on danglars and xDaunt all the time so I do think there is stuff worth exploring combining some of danglars quoted points on media reaction and your point on it's commentary on larger social trends fwiw. (but I won't be doing it for right now).
_______________________________________________________________________________
This is more likely to force Trump and Brazil to back down or ensure war is going to break out.
The military high command of Venezuela ratified Thursday its support for President Nicolas Maduro, whom he recognized as the legitimate president, said the defense minister.
General Vladimir Padrino in a statement from the ministry and in the company of the military leadership said that the United States and other governments are executing a war against Venezuela.
In his message broadcast on official television, Padrino said that they would not recognize "a person" who proclaimed himself head of state referring to opposition lawmaker Juan Gauido.
www.telesurenglish.net
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On January 24 2019 23:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 22:55 xDaunt wrote:On January 24 2019 18:15 iamthedave wrote: Doesn't SA's horrendous (truly horrendous) record on human rights and state-level oppression of women have some influence on this? Or is the economy god-king of your world and it doesn't matter how bad the people are treated so long as someone's getting rich? Like I've said before, I will stipulate to the fact that the Saudis are terrible. But their brand of "terrible" does not approach Maduro's. I don't get what is so hard understand about the fact that Maduro has literally created a humanitarian crisis and destroyed Venezuela. It's not about people getting rich. It's about whether people even have something to eat. Do you know where these anti- Maduro protests have been happening in Venezuela? Do you have any idea about the demographics, particularly along lines of class or how popular the opposition actually is?
Dude, give up your propaganda sources. Maduro is indefensible; socialism completely destroyed what was 20 years ago a functional livable country. If you wanna deny reality, at least play the "it wasn't real socialism" card rather than trying to pretend Maduro is a great guy and Venezuela would be ok if it wasn't for US sanctions which is utter stupidity.
My country is full of Venezuelans exprats and they are just regular folks who lost everything and had to emigrate BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT GET FOOD RELIABLY. I can also watch the videos and actually understand them because they are in Spanish. I personally know at least 10 Venezuelans, they all work menial jobs and most send money back to support their other family members who couldn't leave, SO THEY CAN EAT.
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On January 24 2019 23:12 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 16:12 IgnE wrote: What do xdaunt and danglars and the rest here think of the Tucker Carlson soliloquy? You really think I watch Fox News? Ask me what I think of Maddow’s latest on impeachment why don’t you. Fox had a couple good straight news reporters writing articles for the website, and sometimes Special Report breaks something, but other than that they’ve got nada.
i dont think you watched it in real time, no. but many prominent conservatives have seen it as a real challenge to the overall direction that US conservatism is headed in and responded to it as such. i am not aware of pretty much anything maddow says, but i assume you are referrinn to something that isnt very controversial to her watchers anyway. i dont care about maddow’s daily content mill as i dont care about 99% of the stuff carlson says. but i guess if your point is that you dont care about this thing he said, then message received.
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i enjoyed reading douthat’s column
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On January 25 2019 00:30 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2019 00:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 24 2019 23:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 24 2019 23:23 Danglars wrote:The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYTRoss Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get. Not really but I can certainly see arguments about the medias reaction (I didn't bother to check if any of that is actually sourced) that are fair. Most of it reads as today's version of the white liberal who disapproved of MLK in the 60's to me though. All of the talk is just dancing around what it really is; a powerful image that summarises trends in society. Trying to narrow down specifics is actually irrelevant because it's an image that means something sans context. Same as I don't know the context of the image it's compared to (the one with the kids crowding a black kid at a bar). For all I know the black kid was a real jerk and brought it on himself. It doesn't matter whether he did or he didn't; the image speaks for itself and it stands for something larger than the individual moment that birthed it. . Hmmm... This is an idea that works, but doesn't actually solve the problem of some kid being given a load of shit from international press sources and getting doxxed for no other reason that he wore a MAGA hat and attended and anti-abortion rally. The same culture that drove this incident has done the same to many other people. The mainstream press has devolved into a more official looking version of 4chan at this point. All pitchforks, no facts.
We're at the point of 'shrug' concerning this. It's the culture of the day and the only thing that can counter it - enforced laws about reasonable speech - are an impossibility without Americans becoming hysterical about first amendment violations. Doxxing people has been used consistently by people on the right and left for years.
As for the media; people on the right have no grounds to argue. Bitching about this while supporting Alex Jones and Brietbart's existence is utter hypocrisy.
You either want a change to the system that would let you do something about it (this is my preference, of course) or accept it as part of the game. Americans, for now, have chosen the latter. Stories like this are just quiet reminders about how much better our (still flawed) system is in the UK, because there's a lot more we can do to prevent these kinds of manipulations if they come to light, and so our press doesn't do it half as much or as flagrantly.
On January 25 2019 00:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2019 00:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 24 2019 23:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 24 2019 23:23 Danglars wrote:The twist in the short story comes with the narrator’s realization that several Scissors on the algorithm-generated list have happened already — the “ground zero mosque,” the N.F.L. and the national anthem, the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. So maybe somebody (Putin? the C.I.A.?) made this breakthrough first, and weaponized it against American society. “Of the Scissor’s predicted top hundred most controversial statements, Kavanaugh was No. 58 and Kaepernick was No. 42. No. 86 was the ground zero mosque. No. 89 was that baker who wouldn’t make a cake for a gay wedding.”
And now we have — well, let’s call it No. 40 on the Scissor list (meaning there’s worse, oh so much worse, to come), in the form of the videos of Catholic high school boys from Kentucky, in Washington to attend the March for Life, some of them wearing Make America Great Again hats, in some sort of confrontation with a chanting, drumming Native American activist who was intervening in another confrontation between the teenagers and a group of black nationalists.
To understand what makes this incident so brilliant in its divisiveness, you need to see the tapestry in full, how each constituent element (abortion, race, MAGA, white boys, Catholicism, Native American ritual) automatically confirms priors on both sides of our divide. And you also need to see how the video itself, far from being a means to achieving consensus, is an amazing accelerant of controversy, because everyone who watches can pick up on a different detail and convince themselves that they’re seeing the whole tru —
Are you really doing this, Ross?
Excuse me?
Are you really trying to write one of your pretend-evenhanded, both-sides-do-it, “let’s all get together and learn something” columns about this incident?
Well, I’m — wait, who are you?
Who am I? I’m your conscience, the angel on your shoulder, the real thinking mind you’ve buried under layers of performative, let-me-flatter-liberal-readers piety.
You sound a little more devilish. Or like my raging id, to be honest.
You can call me that if it makes you feel better, Dr. Freud. But you and I both know that what happened on the mall and afterward doesn’t fit that cute little Scissor framework. We both know that any rational, unbiased human being who watched all the videos would see that the initial interpretation of the encounter, the one that inspired celebrities to fantasize about punching a teenager and respectable writers to churn out think pieces on the heavy, fraught-with-white-supremacy significance of a teenage smirk, was totally, completely wrong.
I agree that it was wrong, but the point of the Scissor concept …
No, let me finish. The kids didn’t mob the drumming activist, the kid with the “smirk” wasn’t really blocking the drummer’s path and seemed more nervous than anything, the people clearly flinging racist — and homophobic! — epithets were the black nationalists, not the teenagers, and the drummer told a bunch of different stories to national media about what happened. At best he misinterpreted what was going on, at worst he deliberately lied to make the kids sound like racist goons.
O.K., since you’re my … whatever you are, you know that I’m inclined to agree. But the whole point of the Scissor thing is that to escape it, you need to imagine how other people interpret the story. I can see that the kids were rowdy, too: A couple of them made tomahawk chops, and I’m sure some of them were being offensive in other ways. Also, it’s dumb to wear MAGA caps to a march against abortion; to lots of people they’re a symbol of white-identity politics and a justifiably unpopular president, and the adults from their Catholic school should …
Oh, O.K., so if a teenager wears a cap associated with the president of the United States he’s asking to have media figures fantasize about punching him, to be doxxed and harassed, to have adults from his school temporarily stampeded into talking about expelling him, even to have half of Catholic Twitter, priests included, briefly damning him as a racist? Blame the victim much, do we?
I’m not blaming the victim, I’m explaining why the path to media misinterpretation was greased by the kids’ own rowdy behavior and culture-war signaling …
Are you listening to yourself? The path is always greased when it’s our tribe. The “nonpartisan” media took what felt like years to discover that some of the Women’s March organizers had an anti-Semitism problem, but some teenagers get rowdy at the March for Life — while they’re being yelled at by black nationalists, for God’s sake — and it gets covered like Kristallnacht. Pro-life activists get video of Planned Parenthood suits talking about chopping up unborn babies for their parts, and we have to hear claims about how they’re “selectively edited” repeated in the press forever — but a clip of an anonymous teenager smiling while someone drums in his face is a five-alarm “fascism in America” fire!
You know I think the press has a serious problem with bias on anything related to religion and social issues. But a lot of the cultural right has spent the Trump era wallowing in conspiracy theories and race-baiting — it’s not entirely surprising that liberals are conditioned to expect that kind of stuff when MAGA hats show up. Have you watched any “Hannity” lately, or gone down other #MAGA rabbit holes?
I’m in your head, so you know I have. So fine — keep being NeverTrump, be anti-Hannity, be a scold against your own side sometimes, whatever. Just don’t give me the both-sides piety when something like this happens — and what, just a week after the freakout over Karen Pence teaching art at an evangelical school with a traditional-Christian code of sexual behavior? Can’t you see that our opponents won’t be happy till every conservative religious school gets shamed or shuttered? Can’t you see that the supposed gatekeepers at “mainstream” institutions are happy to play along? NYTRoss Douthat’s conversation with his conscience or id is about as honest as the two sides perspectives get. Not really but I can certainly see arguments about the medias reaction (I didn't bother to check if any of that is actually sourced) that are fair. Most of it reads as today's version of the white liberal who disapproved of MLK in the 60's to me though. All of the talk is just dancing around what it really is; a powerful image that summarises trends in society. Trying to narrow down specifics is actually irrelevant because it's an image that means something sans context. Same as I don't know the context of the image it's compared to (the one with the kids crowding a black kid at a bar). For all I know the black kid was a real jerk and brought it on himself. It doesn't matter whether he did or he didn't; the image speaks for itself and it stands for something larger than the individual moment that birthed it. Same here. It really is and on levels we didn't even really cover much here. I feel like I just rip on danglars and xDaunt all the time so I do think there is stuff worth exploring combining some of danglars quoted points on media reaction and your point on it's commentary on larger social trends fwiw. (but I won't be doing it for right now).
Glad to contribute
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On January 25 2019 03:09 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 23:12 Danglars wrote:On January 24 2019 16:12 IgnE wrote: What do xdaunt and danglars and the rest here think of the Tucker Carlson soliloquy? You really think I watch Fox News? Ask me what I think of Maddow’s latest on impeachment why don’t you. Fox had a couple good straight news reporters writing articles for the website, and sometimes Special Report breaks something, but other than that they’ve got nada. i dont think you watched it in real time, no. but many prominent conservatives have seen it as a real challenge to the overall direction that US conservatism is headed in and responded to it as such. i am not aware of pretty much anything maddow says, but i assume you are referrinn to something that isnt very controversial to her watchers anyway. i dont care about maddow’s daily content mill as i dont care about 99% of the stuff carlson says. but i guess if your point is that you dont care about this thing he said, then message received. I vaguely heard that he had a populist-style monologue that was noteworthy, but never saw it. Is that what you’re talking about? I could try googling it if you had something specific to know I had the right one.
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yes, his rant about populism and families and how the main conservative emphasis on markets is simply not cutting it
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On January 25 2019 04:13 IgnE wrote: yes, his rant about populism and families and how the main conservative emphasis on markets is simply not cutting it I’ll google the video when I get home. Thanks.
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