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On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community.
I dont want to argue with that specific tournament, but last time there was a big tourney all the REAL top players had to go through endless qualifiers tourneys while casters(!) and untrained sc2 players were automatically qualified. This kind of thing leave a bitter taste that last forever. Nowadays top foreigners are competing on 10$ tourneys, that's why we're angry.
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On March 20 2018 08:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:44 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 08:33 SCC-Faust wrote:On March 20 2018 08:27 ReachTheSky wrote:
You seemed to miss the part where I never said other players should be included over some on the list. The ENTIRE THING should be open qual. Force players to continue to prove themself instead of this oldboys club, network circle jerk that constantly goes on. You may want to read posts carefully before responding to someone that does not share the same stance with you.
Dude, I read your post and I was pointing out the exact thing you're bitching about. Maybe you're the one who missed the point? Also, as hilarious as this is, THERE WAS an open qualifier tournament. It was called BSL, and Ty2, Jaeyun, and UltrA qualified. None of the players crying in this thread about some old boy club qualified... and yet you guys are advocating for a "open qual" tournament. I can't believe this is real, because it is so hilarious it is borderline sad. Actually you responded to me as if I was advocating for different players to be included over those that were. You proceeded to then make a list followed up with "So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread." You are indeed missing the entire point. Enough of the invitationals already. faust's point is that the non-invitationals largely produces the same players as the invitationals do, at least for the US, because the players who are good enough to get invited but end up being overlooked all the time are also too busy to bother participating in qualifier tournaments.
That's because TOs keep running invitationals. Take out invitationals entirely and players will make time to attend qual-only events since it would be the only type of tournament available. The problem you are speaking of fixes itself in the end if you just axe invitationals entirely.
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On March 20 2018 08:44 ReachTheSky wrote:
Actually you responded to me as if I was advocating for different players to be included over those that were. You proceeded to then make a list followed up with "So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread." You are indeed missing the entire point. Enough of the invitationals already.
Actually I was pointing out that the players who are in this invitational deserve it as top players in response to your "same pool of guys getting free passes" thing. Hence why I proceeded to list their participation in tournaments (all which have had a 1st place finish with the exception of UltrA I believe). You then proceed to talk about "real" top players, as if you believe these guys truly are getting free passes and are somehow undeserving of being in this tournament. You even say "Players shouldn't be allowed to carry a torch without having to earn it time and time again.". I even cut the tournament participation between like a mid-way through 2017 and now as a measure of "current". That is why I typed that to you. I don't care about your opinion on invitationals, but you can't just say vague comments and then deflect away from them when I respond because your post was an obvious stab at the players who were selected.
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Norway28650 Posts
On March 20 2018 08:50 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play". All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick.
I'm part of the community. You can accurately state that part of the community doesn't like the whole pick and choose players for an event thing, but you can't claim to speak for the entire community. I like both types of events personally.
The fact is that invitational events are vastly outnumbered by non-invitational events.
Invitational events are = this, the holiday bash, a couple too many slots in the italian esports open and 3 out of 9 total participants in the zotac event (where half the prize pool and one tournament was restricted to the qualifying players).
Non-invitational events? CFC, shamtoo's have at you, TLopen, BSL, defiler tournaments. Adding these events up together would give you like 4 invite events (if we consider partially invite fully invite) and 50 non-invite events where registration was open and only skill level determined who won/could participate.
I don't have any problem with this ratio at all. A 1:10 ratio of invite to non-invite tourneys is not a problem. And I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that if you are having an invitational tournament and you want as much exposure and as many viewers as possible, then you choose the players with the biggest following. Now, there is a problem in that the non-invite tournaments don't get the same prize money involved as the invite tournaments do. I get that.
I think it's totally unfair that post SC:R Draco (to be clear - Draco is a really standup guy and I like and respect him a lot, so this isn't targeted towards him at all) has won $3250 and gotten two free trips, one to italy and one to the US, while a player like eon, who is a better player and who has played (and placed highly/won) in 20 times more tournaments, has won a fraction of that. But that's not the fault of the invite tournaments. That's a consequence of the invite tournaments being hosted by people who have spent time networking and creating followings that makes them get viewership numbers in the 5k range. I absolutely love watching zero's BSL casts personally - and the play displayed in BSL is on a somewhat higher level than the level displayed in the twitch event - but Zzzero's previous cast had something like 3% of the viewers that this twitch event did - despite the seemingly poor job they did advertising it. It's fine to think that this isn't fair. But attacking the twitch invitationals is totally counter-productive.
What we need to do is take notice of the fact that apparently, brood war events can still get 5k+ viewership numbers outside Korea. We need to tap into all these potential viewers, showcase that hey, there's actually a lot of even better quality brood war being played - on a weekly basis. I don't know what is the best way to go about re-introducing bw to a wider audience. But I am damn certain that it does not include attacking and alienating the gatekeepers who have access to those 5k+ viewers. That's stupid.
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On March 20 2018 09:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:50 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play". All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick. I'm part of the community. You can accurately state that part of the community doesn't like the whole pick and choose players for an event thing, but you can't claim to speak for the entire community. I like both types of events personally. The fact is that invitational events are vastly outnumbered by non-invitational events. Invitational events are = this, the holiday bash, a couple too many slots in the italian esports open and 3 out of 9 total participants in the zotac event (where half the prize pool and one tournament was restricted to the qualifying players). Non-invitational events? CFC, shamtoo's have at you, TLopen, BSL, defiler tournaments. Adding these events up together would give you like 4 invite events (if we consider partially invite fully invite) and 50 non-invite events where registration was open and only skill level determined who won/could participate. I don't have any problem with this ratio at all. A 1:10 ratio of invite to non-invite tourneys is not a problem. And I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that if you are having an invitational tournament and you want as much exposure and as many viewers as possible, then you choose the players with the biggest following. Now, there is a problem in that the non-invite tournaments don't get the same prize money involved as the invite tournaments do. I get that. I think it's totally unfair that post SC:R Draco (to be clear - Draco is a really standup guy and I like and respect him a lot, so this isn't targeted towards him at all) has won $3250 and gotten two free trips, one to italy and one to the US, while players like eon, who is a better player and who has played (and placed highly/won) in 20 times more tournaments, has won a fraction of that. But that's not the fault of the invite tournaments. That's a consequence of the invite tournaments being hosted by people who have spent time networking and creating followings that makes them get viewership numbers in the 5k range. I absolutely love watching zero's BSL casts personally - and the play displayed in BSL is on a somewhat higher level than the level displayed in the twitch event - but his previous cast had something like 3% of the viewers that this twitch event did - despite the seemingly poor job they did advertising it. It's fine to think that this isn't fair. But attacking the twitch invitationals is totally counter-productive. What we need to do is take notice of the fact that apparently, brood war events can still get 5k+ viewership numbers outside Korea. We need to tap into all these potential viewers, showcase that hey, there's actually a lot of even better quality brood war being played - on a weekly basis. I don't know what is the best way to go about re-introducing bw to a wider audience. But I am damn certain that it does not include attacking and alienating the gatekeepers who have access to those 5k+ viewers. That's stupid.
I never said I speak for the community. Those are your words and not mine, avoid trying to put them in my mouth.
No one is trying to attack or alienate the TOs. Everyone has been very clear and frank where they stand. Stop trying to turn it into an "us vs them" scenario.
I suppose the best thing I can do is not talk about invitationals and tell people to watch other events instead of invitationals in hopes of impacting the numbers enough that there is an economic shift towards real events instead of these silly in-house oldboy club competitions. Then maybe we will see money being funneled in the right places instead of the wrong places.
I'm glad you brought up the Draco thing. Draco is a great player, i'm not bashing him at all when I say this but he is a benefactor of the current system that is in place. If you really thought it was shitty that he made X amount with X free trips while Eon had to play 20+ tournaments on a regular basis who has been carrying the BW torch to earn only a fraction of what Draco did, you should be all about my idea.
The current system in place does nothing but favor already established players allowing them to milk it for every drop while simultaneously making it near impossible for new blood to break through in a large spot light. If new blood can't break through in major spotlight, how will they ever develope a following? This why the scene very rarely sees new blood unless they were already a friend of an established player. This current system is actually hurting the scene and STUNTING the growth of it. You want growth on a massive scale? You need to make sure there are opportunities for others to grow on a massive scale as well.
Axe the invitationals entirely, open qual only. Make your audience feel like they at least have the opportunity to be apart of something bigger than themselves(as long as they choose to put the effort in to compete).
Last edit - Invitationals are not community focused and should not be held in high regard at all since they are solely created to benefit a small group of people. If anyone reading this is considering watching an invitational, Go support an open qualifier tournament instead since they benefit everyone. #equalopportunity #community 
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Norway28650 Posts
On March 20 2018 09:20 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 09:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:50 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play". All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick. I'm part of the community. You can accurately state that part of the community doesn't like the whole pick and choose players for an event thing, but you can't claim to speak for the entire community. I like both types of events personally. The fact is that invitational events are vastly outnumbered by non-invitational events. Invitational events are = this, the holiday bash, a couple too many slots in the italian esports open and 3 out of 9 total participants in the zotac event (where half the prize pool and one tournament was restricted to the qualifying players). Non-invitational events? CFC, shamtoo's have at you, TLopen, BSL, defiler tournaments. Adding these events up together would give you like 4 invite events (if we consider partially invite fully invite) and 50 non-invite events where registration was open and only skill level determined who won/could participate. I don't have any problem with this ratio at all. A 1:10 ratio of invite to non-invite tourneys is not a problem. And I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that if you are having an invitational tournament and you want as much exposure and as many viewers as possible, then you choose the players with the biggest following. Now, there is a problem in that the non-invite tournaments don't get the same prize money involved as the invite tournaments do. I get that. I think it's totally unfair that post SC:R Draco (to be clear - Draco is a really standup guy and I like and respect him a lot, so this isn't targeted towards him at all) has won $3250 and gotten two free trips, one to italy and one to the US, while players like eon, who is a better player and who has played (and placed highly/won) in 20 times more tournaments, has won a fraction of that. But that's not the fault of the invite tournaments. That's a consequence of the invite tournaments being hosted by people who have spent time networking and creating followings that makes them get viewership numbers in the 5k range. I absolutely love watching zero's BSL casts personally - and the play displayed in BSL is on a somewhat higher level than the level displayed in the twitch event - but his previous cast had something like 3% of the viewers that this twitch event did - despite the seemingly poor job they did advertising it. It's fine to think that this isn't fair. But attacking the twitch invitationals is totally counter-productive. What we need to do is take notice of the fact that apparently, brood war events can still get 5k+ viewership numbers outside Korea. We need to tap into all these potential viewers, showcase that hey, there's actually a lot of even better quality brood war being played - on a weekly basis. I don't know what is the best way to go about re-introducing bw to a wider audience. But I am damn certain that it does not include attacking and alienating the gatekeepers who have access to those 5k+ viewers. That's stupid. I never said I speak for the community. Those are your words and not mine, avoid trying to put them in my mouth. No one is trying to attack or alienate the TOs. Everyone has been very clear and frank where they stand. Stop trying to turn it into an "us vs them" scenario. I suppose the best thing I can do is not talk about invitationals and tell people to watch other events instead of invitationals in hopes of impacting the numbers enough that there is an economic shift towards real events instead of these silly in-house oldboy club competitions. Then maybe we will see money being funneled in the right places instead of the wrong places.
The post I responded to literally started with 'You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments.' If that's not you trying to speak on behalf of the community then I must have misinterpreted at some point.
Anyway, I get the point that 'it'd be better if more money went to longer-lasting tournaments with open qualification processes'. I agree with that. But it's not like we're lacking organic tournaments. There's a plethora of opportunities for good, underrated players to showcase themselves as top or nearly top dogs. Someone like ty2 was invited to this tournament because he's consistently been doing that for several months - not because he's a long time old friend of the IN-crowd of brood war.
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On March 20 2018 05:27 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive. Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K
TL.net BW forums has its fair share of purist and elitist sentiments and it have reared its head a few times too many in the past. Particularly unhelpful was some of the response towards certain former BW-figures returning after ASL and SC remastered. Having said that, some people felt hurt by how their game and community got wiped of from the face of the earth, just by almost every key figure and top players deciding to switch to sc2. Some of these people helped a new community to grow out of its ashes. I'm not condoning some of the behaviour that could be viewed as unhelpful, but i guess its important to understand it to some extent. And i'm not saying that it was wrong to switch to SC2 - it was completely understandable and reasonable to switch.
But i have seen what i would consider an improvement in these kinds of issues. I think there are less hardcore sentiments looking to flag integrity and holier than though spirit. Lets hope for further improvement am i right?
And to the people talking about in-group favouring. Sure there might be some element of friend-favours in some kinds of invitationals, and its okay to express ones qualms about that, but remember to show aswell some respect and appreciation for people who organize and put money into events. Be happy at least that we had 5000 viewers watching Starcraft! And keep in mind that giving favours to ones friends is a natural impulse, it can be easier said than done to fight it back. Lets strive to be civil and constructive when going about putting forth criticism. I'm sure that is possible, for you are all good people!
Incontrol, most people who love BW are glad that you and others have been back into creating some BW content. Back to share you experiences with the game, to play it, to compete and most importantly - have some fun. Tournaments such as the christmas bash was some of the most entertaining events i have watched in a long time. You guys really know how to create an event and i'm happy that some of these talents and resources are sometimes being spent on BW (again).
And I haven't forgotten that you have said yourselves that you would like to help organize future events, where more current top players could participate. Thats great if you could help make that happen. Dont be afraid to ask around for what kind of players could deserve an invitation (based of on skill and willingness to compete in general of course). We know our stuff around here
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Okay, since Beast is banned I thought i'd write what he's been saying.
He actually respects a lot (not all) of the players invited; in particular Jaeyun, with whom he practices with a lot. He wasn't mad that HE wasn't invited, just that the group of players selected wasn't 'NA's Finest'. Also, the different prize pools is bizarre but whatever.
Also, this Sugo BM thing isn't real. I'm not sure where he's started. Ask anyone who knows him. Sugo sounds like the nicest guy in IT support who's there to help and be your friend.
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Stop mentioning me. I appreciate the support; And the complete dismissal of me is ok, too (I won't lose any sleep either way). I don't care anymore. Carry on the conversation with the other points in the thread.
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On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL).
I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool.
It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own.
You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option.
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On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option.
Well said. It's a diverse long-standing community, it can't / won't be pigeon holed. Only a fraction comment. All things to consider.
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On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option.
He's always been that way. The sc2 community got sick n tired of it and eventually called him out for his bullying years back. He hasn't been much of a "figurehead of the community" in sc2 since then. Less and less casting gigs, teamless etc etc. I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when someone shits on the very community that makes them famous in the first place(karma).
User was temp banned for this post.
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Oh boy, that's a lot of drama again. I think it all derailed into people arguing over things they didn't even support to begin with, for the sake of arguing. At the start people were simply upset how none of the big SC:R events gave opportunities to the current top foreigners, which many believe are in EU region mostly. The only exception was the Italian Open but even then FBH's invitation kinda spoilt it.
On the other hand, almost all of the events in question were supported by Blizzard//Twitch which are inherently US based entities. Obviously it's way easier to invite local players with rare exceptions such as Draco, who happens to be an old-timer. Btw, favoritism towards Draco is questionable since he backs his status up with skill and is a legit top player rn. So in the end, while it is understandable why people would want Eon, Dewalt, Trutacz or Notforu over some NA players, it is also clear that arranging such a tournament is a great hassle. Perhaps too great for anyone to bother. Like, last time Dewalt had a visa issue and couldn't attend the tournament for example. The alternative would be to make it online, but then there are major lag issues, which SC:R didn't help to resolve, actually quite the opposite.
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On March 20 2018 04:27 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 01:58 Immaterial wrote:
I think there are valid claims being made on both sides of this discussion. It is likely that iNcontrol is aware of some things that have happened/are happening behind the scenes that most of us here are not privy to. No doubt we should take his comments into consideration, and be more proactive about showing love to those who are willing to invest in this scene. It is important that we prevent the vocal minority of trolls and dickheads from dominating the discussion. iNc has been a pillar of the community for many years (imo) and we should not so quickly dismiss what he's saying here.
Conversely, I also think it is fair to criticize the way that players are selected for events like this. I would suggest that we can both show our support for things like this while also voicing legitimate concerns about how invitationals are run. The best players should be rewarded with opportunities and exposure.
I don't know though, maybe this is a dumb comment... In any case, I love this game and it makes me really happy to see that people are still willing to invest their time, energy and even money into this scene. We should do whatever we can to ensure that that never changes. Thank you. Completely fair and reasonable. Criticizing is fine. The level people take it and how it is in EVERY BW THREAD that has any money/invites at all is insane. I love this idea though that for some reason people think I gain anything by saying what I do? Like, I don't even post on TL but when I do it's to say something along the lines of "you guys are doing something bad" and people are like "YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO CAUSE HARM!" what? I can convincingly tell you I am having the hardest time getting Blizzard motivated to do anything for SC:R and a huge part of that is the community is toxic and negative about everything. You want to think I am making that up? Why? What do I get out of making that up? What precedent is there for that? Have I been known to make shit up and talk about it publicly? Dunno man.You can either be a guy who wants to shout me down and assume I don't know what I am talking about or.. you could take a 20 year veteran of the scene's words into account. It's a shame but it's no hair off my back. Going to continue to do what I do with or without people like ggzerg etc.
A few ways you can look at this. Sure, Inc has a reputation for trolling, but I feel pretty confident he isn't taking time out of his day to troll the BW community for shits and giggles. So what is going on?
First is that in certain aspects their is validity to what Incontrol is saying. There have been some bad threads. In particular the one about content creators like Day9 coming back to BW for $$ was fucking ridiculous. There is, without a doubt, a degree of elitism and purism around. I don't exactly remember what was specifically said for Holiday Bash.
At the same time, there is a ton of truth to what other posters like Nina, Art of Turtle, Golgatha, etc. are saying. Let's be honest, you don't spend near the time hanging out with all manner of BW players over discords, other relevant communities (defiler, korhal, etc), and in general on TL. We get to interact with a far greater number of players on a daily, weekly, and monthy basis in a far more personal way than you do as a content creator that isn't a dedicated BW hobbiest.
Most of the people you are getting responses from are those that interact with these people and a much larger community than just TL forum posters, and have a different perspective about what the "BW community looks and feels like". They also see the "BW community" as a different subset of people than you do. Hence the responses with undertones of, or just blatant, agitation at your criticism. When 90% of the people you know, game, and interact with on a regular basis are incredible people and a person such as yourself comes in and states "your community is toxic and the people are annoying" without some very specific qualifiers it's not hard to see why you're getting the pushback to your comments you are.
I also want to point out those pushing back against you are absolutely correct in their own context. I think what you're defining as BW community is more or less analagous to "TL forum posters in BW section". There ARE issues there. But, at the same time, the overall community as a whole is not just TL forum posters, and it's an incredibly positive, welcoming community of some damn fine individuals.
A better way of stating your post would be to suggest that the TL BW forums have a serious problem with a vocal minority of staunch BW elitists, or whatever word properly describes this segment. In that regard, you are absolutely correct. It truly IS a problem. At the same time, the dissenting voices against you here are also correct in their own way, in that the larger community is pretty fucking incredible, and it is a small, aggressive minority that causes problems. They are loud though, and if you just read some of the BW threads, it's not all that hard to think "holy shit, this community is a bit nuts, think I may back away from it slowly..."
MTA: It would truly be enlightening to hear Schamtoo's thoughts here. He is part of the community to a much greater degree than many organizers. I would be curious to his thoughts on whether he senses that most people are good, happy, and appreciative; with a minor, but very outspoken toxic TL posting crowd...or if he thinks the problem is larger scale and more deep rooted.
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On March 20 2018 08:52 ppp87 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. I dont want to argue with that specific tournament, but last time there was a big tourney all the REAL top players had to go through endless qualifiers tourneys while casters(!) and untrained sc2 players were automatically qualified. This kind of thing leave a bitter taste that last forever. Nowadays top foreigners are competing on 10$ tourneys, that's why we're angry.
Truthfully, I can't understand being angry about it. People are putting their money up for these events for one of two reasons:
1) They want to watch a tournament with the invited players
2) They believe the invited players will draw the most viewers and want their event to be a commercial success.
In case one, if people have money and want to watch certain players play, pretty damn reasonable. It would be like complaining if some rich korean was always sponsoring Reach v Nada, and not Flash, Larva, or Rain. Whatever, his money he can pay who he wants.
In case two, well...still comes back to the money. You have to use your money and resources efficiently. If whoever is promoting the event believes that "IN" foreigners are going to draw more viewers, ad money, and donations than Bonyth, Dewalt, etc. that's their prerogative and decision.
When you understand it that way, being bitter is basically being angry that popular players are popular. There is absolutely no way you could fault the content creator or organizer. Are you really going to be bitter than some organizer would rather watch Sero than TT1, or Kawaii than Dewalt?
Or I suppose it's possible that your angry that capitalism works the way it does, and people follow the $$$. Doesn't seem being worth being bitter about.
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Based on what I scanned over, I can conclude: people who are the ones generally invited to tournaments/showmatches are more "dependable" in the sense that they are the same people who tend to show up every time. I know that personally, even if I were invited, I'd be flattered but can't be relied on to show, as of late.
To people getting upset over nothing, my advice is to apply thy selves to tournaments to actually show yourselves to the community that you are ready to throw down with anyone.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 20 2018 12:36 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option. He's always been that way. The sc2 community got sick n tired of it and eventually called him out for his bullying years back. He hasn't been much of a "figurehead of the community" in sc2 since then. Less and less casting gigs, teamless etc etc. I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when someone shits on the very community that makes them famous in the first place(karma).
That’s right guys .. I barely get gigs anymore because people hate me. I’ve actually been asked to do virtually every event except like 2-3 in Asia each year. EG closed its rts division and i stream for a living to a community that seems to think I’m ok. But yeah.. I’m a bully and hated or something. Ok loL.
Bunch of people really upset i described the bw community as toxic.. ok. Dunno what to tell you. My experience is exactly that. When I stream it, post on reddit, here or the events we do.. it’s been a bad experience with the community at large. You can continue to just assume I’m trolling or being mean or whatever.. I guess? I said it earlier but I will say it again.. unlike 99% of you I’m actually speaking with and working with blizz and others to try and get events / content. I’m literally getting feedback that this community makes doing those things undesirable. So every time I say “this sucks because I want to do content but you guys make it hard” and you all find new ways to attack me or pick apart my posts and try and make it about how wrong I am i can’t help but laugh. Well, fuck it. I’m done trying. Going to talk with Artosis and keep our BW segments on our talk show at a minimum too. I don’t need this in my life. Love BW and some of y’all are awesome but this shit is in everything we fucking try and do for this community. Tired of people like reachfortheballs and others going fucking ham on me every god damn time I talk.
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On March 21 2018 01:26 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 12:36 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option. He's always been that way. The sc2 community got sick n tired of it and eventually called him out for his bullying years back. He hasn't been much of a "figurehead of the community" in sc2 since then. Less and less casting gigs, teamless etc etc. I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when someone shits on the very community that makes them famous in the first place(karma). That’s right guys .. I barely get gigs anymore because people hate me. I’ve actually been asked to do virtually every event except like 2-3 in Asia each year. EG closed its rts division and i stream for a living to a community that seems to think I’m ok. But yeah.. I’m a bully and hated or something. Ok loL. Bunch of people really upset i described the bw community as toxic.. ok. Dunno what to tell you. My experience is exactly that. When I stream it, post on reddit, here or the events we do.. it’s been a bad experience with the community at large. You can continue to just assume I’m trolling or being mean or whatever.. I guess? I said it earlier but I will say it again.. unlike 99% of you I’m actually speaking with and working with blizz and others to try and get events / content. I’m literally getting feedback that this community makes doing those things undesirable. So every time I say “this sucks because I want to do content but you guys make it hard” and you all find new ways to attack me or pick apart my posts and try and make it about how wrong I am i can’t help but laugh. Well, fuck it. I’m done trying. Going to talk with Artosis and keep our BW segments on our talk show at a minimum too. I don’t need this in my life. Love BW and some of y’all are awesome but this shit is in everything we fucking try and do for this community. Tired of people like reachfortheballs and others going fucking ham on me every god damn time I talk.
Stop trying to turn yourself into a victim. I've actually praised you in the past for things as well. grow up. If you want to be a public figure but can't mentally handle when people disagree with you or when people have feedback that isn't ideal for you without being able to still treat them with respect, maybe you should consider a different line of work.
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United States33360 Posts
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EPT
