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What: A series of Showmatches of NA's finest. Each showmatch will be a Bo3 and the prize will be ranging from $500 to $1000 for each set.
Who: We've selected 7 NA Players and 1 SA Player. Schamtoo & ZombieGrub will be the casters.
Where: https://www.twitch.tv/twitchrivals As well each player is required to stream their match on their personal twitch stream.
When: March 18th, 2018 @ Noon (PDT).
How:
Competitors will be playing for a prize. It's going to be a winner take all format, so the winner will walk away with the total prize per match while loser walks away with nothing.
The map pool will be Destination, Tau Cross, Circuit Breakers, Fighting Spirit, Match Point. At the beginning of the series players will each ban one map.
Afterwards, each player will select a map until the last and only one is for the last match.
Standard ICCUP rules apply.
1st match: Kawaii vs Sero (500$)
2nd match: DragOn vs Ty2 (500$)
3rd match: UltrA vs Michael (750$)
Final match: Nyoken vs Jaeyun (1000$)
Disclaimer: I am not involved in the organization of this event, I was merely invited and wanted to get the word out since its happening tomorrow and no official news thread was posted yet. I was told I could make a news post so I did.
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I wonder what criteria the money distribution is based upon. Also why wait until the day before to announce this?
GL to those participating 
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Garbage player lineups
User was banned for this post.
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On March 18 2018 12:59 BeastJaehoon wrote:
"NA's Finest"
Well aren't you negative. Heavin forbid the word "some" isn't in there. Still some decent matches with some pretty solid NA players with a couple of damn good ones.
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im guessing people like you are the ones that decided the list
User was warned for this post
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On March 18 2018 13:47 BeastJaehoon wrote:
im guessing people like you are the ones that decided the list
Actually I am.
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makes sense now that schamtoo is the one that picked
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doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm a bit confused on the line-up of players and prize structure, but this is still pretty cool. Looking forward to watching some great games tomorrow with these games and the ASL happening! Thanks to the organizers that put this together.
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Im not sure what to think about it. Gl everyone.
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this is a good event but why were the matches announced 1 day before the cast? lol and 1 of the players had to make the news post? could have hyped it up way more than this.
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On March 18 2018 19:00 TT1 wrote:
this is a good event but why were the matches announced 1 day before the cast? lol and 1 of the players had to make the news post? could have hyped it up way more than this.
happy birthday potato zerg
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Feels kind of weird having another tournament featuring the NA scene with this amount of money. Guess it's some sort of misplaced jealousy. Nice thing though, trying to catch up on VODs if I don't forget it.
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Awesome, good luck dragon!
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I'm interested in hearing who BeastJaehoon thinks should have been invited instead. There are only a handful of other players from NA who are all about the same level, not significantly better. Maybe he expects players like Bizzy and Draw to suddenly come back from inactivity?
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United States10092 Posts
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Well dragon is a good player.
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I'm confused, is it broodwar, or remastered, or both ?
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On March 18 2018 21:07 Sero wrote:
I'm interested in hearing who BeastJaehoon thinks should have been invited instead. There are only a handful of other players from NA who are all about the same level, not significantly better. Maybe he expects players like Bizzy and Draw to suddenly come back from inactivity?
I do have to agree with Beast, it's a biased list.
And yes, I do agree with Sero to some extent, that most of the "top" NA players, even ones not included in this biased list, are relatively in the same level/tier. It's not like someone is Bonyth level skill and triumphs that far above the others. Though, I do think people have their specialty match ups, like DragOn's PvZ.
Anyways, GL DragOn ~
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you host something then if it bothers you that badly
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On March 18 2018 14:19 BeastJaehoon wrote:
doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post.
Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post.
[NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T. (was watching cadenza stream sorry)
[SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P.
After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players.
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lol bud, even I can beat dandy, that's a pretty junk list tbh.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 19 2018 01:44 art_of_turtle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2018 14:19 BeastJaehoon wrote:
doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post. Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post. [NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T, Cadenza Z. [SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P. After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players.
Cadenza is Scottish buddy
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On March 19 2018 01:44 art_of_turtle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2018 14:19 BeastJaehoon wrote:
doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post. Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post. [NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T, Cadenza Z. [SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P. After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players.
Castle, Seriosity, Faust, Lumire and Cadenza included in top NA? Replace them with Hawk, TT1, Sugo; Beast and myself(even if not active  ) and you'll have a fairly accurate list.
Your SA list was pretty accurate
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I would have loved to see Michael and Dragon fighting it out for the 1k match, as they were 1st/2nd place in Zotac
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On March 19 2018 01:49 atrox_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 01:44 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 18 2018 14:19 BeastJaehoon wrote:
doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post. Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post. [NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T, Cadenza Z. [SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P. After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players. Cadenza is Scottish buddy
Fixed.
You guy's are more then welcome to add your input to the list.
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On March 19 2018 01:50 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 01:44 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 18 2018 14:19 BeastJaehoon wrote:
doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post. Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post. [NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T, Cadenza Z. [SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P. After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players. Castle, Seriosity, Faust, Lumire and Cadenza included in top NA? Replace them with Hawk, TT1, Sugo; Beast and myself(even if not active ) and you'll have a fairly accurate list. Your SA list was pretty accurate
Putting in a shameless plug for myself as well lol. And yes 100% Hawk Beast TT1 EndingLife. Hell, I’ll even put in people like Diving before some of the people mentioned
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On March 19 2018 02:03 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 01:50 EndingLife wrote:On March 19 2018 01:44 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 18 2018 14:19 BeastJaehoon wrote:
doesnt know what a good player is if it hit him in the face
User was temp banned for this post. Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post. [NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T, Cadenza Z. [SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P. After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players. Castle, Seriosity, Faust, Lumire and Cadenza included in top NA? Replace them with Hawk, TT1, Sugo; Beast and myself(even if not active ) and you'll have a fairly accurate list. Your SA list was pretty accurate Putting in a shameless plug for myself as well lol. And yes 100% Hawk Beast TT1 EndingLife. Hell, I’ll even put in people like Diving before some of the people mentioned
Agreed. I guess when you don't play tours or aren't popular, people think you suck.
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tt1, gypsy, and nyoken should be the only people on the list.
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Norway28585 Posts
On March 19 2018 01:49 bstuLLs wrote:
lol bud, even I can beat dandy, that's a pretty junk list tbh.
lol you single out dandy from that list? He's probably the best player from both NA+SA right now - definitely top 3.
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why is BeastJaehoon so hateful? Any starcraft tournament that gets organized should be glorified.
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Really childish and petty that a nice event gets announced with money and instead of being appreciative of it, people are upset that they haven't been selected. Also agree with Sero, sure some picks could have been different, but this is not at all inaccurate. Maybe this is why we don't get more events, when someone puts together something and puts a large amount of money in it (for Brood War) and the immediate feedback is from people who have the demeanor of kids.
Like, what do you guys actually expect in a scene with this low of a population? Also people in this thread complaining about the players picked do not actively play in most tournaments. How do you get your name out if all you do is hide behind your teamliquid account and talk shit about how great you are? No one cares about you or your high opinion of yourself. Maybe you should've been playing in TL Opens, Clash for Chars, and Have At You's so people actually can gauge your skill and know who you are. But then again, maybe that'd give you the hard reality that you wouldn't finish well in those tournaments as much as you'd expect.
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On March 19 2018 02:20 SCC-Faust wrote:
Really childish and petty that a nice event gets announced with money and instead of being appreciative of it, people are upset that they haven't been selected. Also agree with Sero, sure some picks could have been different, but this is not at all inaccurate. Maybe this is why we don't get more events, when someone puts together something and puts a large amount of money in it (for Brood War) and the immediate feedback is from people who have the demeanor of kids.
Like, what do you guys actually expect in a scene with this low of a population? Also people in this thread complaining about the players picked do not actively play in most tournaments. How do you get your name out if all you do is hide behind your teamliquid account and talk shit about how great you are? No one cares about you or your high opinion of yourself. Maybe you should've been playing in TL Opens, Clash for Chars, and Have At You's so people actually can gauge your skill and know who you are. But then again, maybe that'd give you the hard reality that you wouldn't finish well in those tournaments as much as you'd expect.
very well said.
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On March 19 2018 02:20 SCC-Faust wrote:
Really childish and petty that a nice event gets announced with money and instead of being appreciative of it, people are upset that they haven't been selected. Also agree with Sero, sure some picks could have been different, but this is not at all inaccurate. Maybe this is why we don't get more events, when someone puts together something and puts a large amount of money in it (for Brood War) and the immediate feedback is from people who have the demeanor of kids.
Like, what do you guys actually expect in a scene with this low of a population? Also people in this thread complaining about the players picked do not actively play in most tournaments. How do you get your name out if all you do is hide behind your teamliquid account and talk shit about how great you are? No one cares about you or your high opinion of yourself. Maybe you should've been playing in TL Opens, Clash for Chars, and Have At You's so people actually can gauge your skill and know who you are. But then again, maybe that'd give you the hard reality that you wouldn't finish well in those tournaments as much as you'd expect.
Faust, I think you're right to an extent.
1) I think people do appreciate this event happening. It's still promoting the game we all love. Good work and good for the people selected.
2) Let's not correlate tournament attendance to a players skill. There isn't a direct correlation there, if you ask me. Did you ever stop to think, tournaments are on weekends at noon, typically? People do have lives and can't always prioritize a game during the weekend...
3) I think people are getting more irate because someone like art_of_turtle came up with a totally obnoxious list. I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but when you're putting someone like Seriosity on a list for top NA, I'm sorry, your opinion is just wrong (no offense to Seri, we're friends and have known him for years, but the truth is the truth lol)
Anyways, good luck to the players.
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Norway28585 Posts
if you never show up for tournaments you can't expect people to know how good you are, though. Tournaments are where people play at the best of their level, and tournament success is how player skill is best gauged. There have been a couple tournaments going on each week for the past 6 months or so, if it's impossible to make it to any of them then I dunno what to say.
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The 8 selected players were pretty good, maybe minus kawaii. I was simply arguing with art of turtle about his opinion who the best NA players are.
Not everyone has the schedule available to play weekend tournaments that take up the vast majority of their weekend, on their only days off.
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On March 19 2018 02:20 SCC-Faust wrote:
Really childish and petty that a nice event gets announced with money and instead of being appreciative of it, people are upset that they haven't been selected. Also agree with Sero, sure some picks could have been different, but this is not at all inaccurate. Maybe this is why we don't get more events, when someone puts together something and puts a large amount of money in it (for Brood War) and the immediate feedback is from people who have the demeanor of kids.
Like, what do you guys actually expect in a scene with this low of a population? Also people in this thread complaining about the players picked do not actively play in most tournaments. How do you get your name out if all you do is hide behind your teamliquid account and talk shit about how great you are? No one cares about you or your high opinion of yourself. Maybe you should've been playing in TL Opens, Clash for Chars, and Have At You's so people actually can gauge your skill and know who you are. But then again, maybe that'd give you the hard reality that you wouldn't finish well in those tournaments as much as you'd expect.
Damn you beat me to it.
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Norway28585 Posts
On March 19 2018 02:27 EndingLife wrote:
The 8 selected players were pretty good, maybe minus kawaii. I was simply arguing with art of turtle about his opinion who the best NA players are.
Not everyone has the schedule available to play weekend tournaments that take up the vast majority of their weekend, on their only days off.
there's this ongoing BSL tournament where you had one and a half month to ladder to show how good you are, allowing you to play at whatever time suited yourself. Beast managed to play 19 games going 14-5 putting him as number #98. And I haven't seen him play any tournaments at all, pretty much.
It's actually very possible that he is just as good as some of the players selected, and that he'd be a favorite in a bo3-bo5 in some matchups. But lol, you gotta put yourself out there a little if you expect people to know that.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
This is the reason why people don't want to do things for smaller communities. You can't ever please everyone. :/
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On March 19 2018 02:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 02:27 EndingLife wrote:
The 8 selected players were pretty good, maybe minus kawaii. I was simply arguing with art of turtle about his opinion who the best NA players are.
Not everyone has the schedule available to play weekend tournaments that take up the vast majority of their weekend, on their only days off. there's this ongoing BSL tournament where you had one and a half month to ladder to show how good you are, allowing you to play at whatever time suited yourself. Beast managed to play 19 games going 14-5 putting him as number #98. And I haven't seen him play any tournaments at all, pretty much. It's actually very possible that he is just as good as some of the players selected, and that he'd be a favorite in a bo3-bo5 in some matchups. But lol, you gotta put yourself out there a little if you expect people to know that.
I'm not saying beast should have been one of the 8 invited players, Schamtoo did a great job selecting those 8 players. I was simply arguing with art of turtle about the list of players he provided.
I'm just wondering why a player in the invited player list had to go out of his way to get the word out there for this tour. I love to watch tournaments and almost missed this one.. Thanks Dragon!
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This is more money than the scene has seen in a while. That's good. why are the prizes different? is it NA or NA + SA? why? Why aren't the best players --like terror, dandy-- playing in it? is there going to be one for EU?
Also, Endinglife you should retire from shit talking when you stop playing.
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Shit talking? Please elaborate.
I still play this game. Just not often or competitively.
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Finally made a TL account so I could share my opinion guys
As much as it is nice to have these events, we can't just shut out all criticism and blame all complaints and negativity as "players are salty they weren't invited" or respond with "just be grateful you have anything". This prize pool is much larger than anything the scene normally sees, but I do not think the thought and effort put into it was commensurate with the prizes made available. Frankly, this event felt rushed and poorly planned, with virtually no marketing, as well as arbitrary matches set up for arbitrary prize amounts.
If we stop and think about it, this event had to be posted by a player the night before the matches, a few of the invited players have been inactive since last year, and there's a South American player invited to an event called NA's finest.
I personally love watching these events and think its great that the players who have worked hard and made a name for themselves get more recognition and some potential earnings for their trouble. But this event felt like the community was thrown a few thousand dollars and then no other effort or passion was put into sharing it and spreading the word. Zotac had months of qualifiers that hyped up the main day event, but I cant say the same for this.
Regardless, Im excited for the games and for the casts. Thanks for making this happen, no matter any complaints i have.
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Although this is great for the community, it is pretty obvious the player picking is extremely biased,Not sure who Beast is, but there are many other obvoius picks like SuGo, Endinglife, Hawk, etc.... Even TT1 would of been better to see than some of the other choices.
SuGo actually has more of an extensive background in competing at high level than any of these ' top ' foreigners, but none of you know that b/c none of you played on USWest back when he was in By. clan.
Kawaii, Ultra, Michael and Nyoken are absolutely not top foreigner level, it's also arguable about Sero and or Jaeyun, as the only reason they were chosen is due to being in the ' in ' crowd in the BW Foreign scene, and this cannot really be disputed as there was no voting, no proper announcements, no proper hype created, just a random hey guess what watch this look at us event.
Just another random big prize pool event that other ' top ' foreigners have been waiting and practicing to compete in, but instead some strings get pulled by the Twitch employee to host a big cash prize pool event for his friends in the ' in ' crowd, and who benefits?
The IN Crowd.
Also Turtle, you have me literally laughing out loud with that list you posted.
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Although this is great for the community, it is pretty obvious the player picking is extremely biased,Not sure who Beast is, but there are many other obvoius picks like SuGo, Endinglife, Hawk, etc.... Even TT1 would of been better to see than some of the other choices.
SuGo actually has more of an extensive background in competing at high level than any of these ' top ' foreigners, but none of you know that b/c none of you played on USWest back when he was in By. clan.
Kawaii, Ultra, Michael and Nyoken are absolutely not top foreigner level, it's also arguable about Sero and or Jaeyun, as the only reason they were chosen is due to being in the ' in ' crowd in the BW Foreign scene, and this cannot really be disputed as there was no voting, no proper announcements, no proper hype created, just a random hey guess what watch this look at us event.
Just another random big prize pool event that other ' top ' foreigners have been waiting and practicing to compete in, but instead some strings get pulled by the Twitch employee to host a big cash prize pool event for his friends in the ' in ' crowd, and who benefits?
The IN Crowd.
Also Turtle, you have me literally laughing out loud with that list you posted.
What?
Nyoken is the top foregeigninger right now, there is no question there.
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dont mention my name plz, i dont care
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On March 19 2018 04:13 bstuLLs wrote:Show nested quote +Although this is great for the community, it is pretty obvious the player picking is extremely biased,Not sure who Beast is, but there are many other obvoius picks like SuGo, Endinglife, Hawk, etc.... Even TT1 would of been better to see than some of the other choices.
SuGo actually has more of an extensive background in competing at high level than any of these ' top ' foreigners, but none of you know that b/c none of you played on USWest back when he was in By. clan.
Kawaii, Ultra, Michael and Nyoken are absolutely not top foreigner level, it's also arguable about Sero and or Jaeyun, as the only reason they were chosen is due to being in the ' in ' crowd in the BW Foreign scene, and this cannot really be disputed as there was no voting, no proper announcements, no proper hype created, just a random hey guess what watch this look at us event.
Just another random big prize pool event that other ' top ' foreigners have been waiting and practicing to compete in, but instead some strings get pulled by the Twitch employee to host a big cash prize pool event for his friends in the ' in ' crowd, and who benefits?
The IN Crowd.
Also Turtle, you have me literally laughing out loud with that list you posted. What? Nyoken is the top foregeigninger right now, there is no question there.
??? Lol this guy said he can easily beat Dandy and now calls Nyoken a top foreigner.
Let's just stop talking about this now guys. The tournaments already started. Just watch it and be happy.
Also, to ggZerg aka Telecom, good post. I agree ... the "IN" crowd...
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There's a HUGE difference between top foreigners and top N/A players. Lets get that straight.
I actually like the 8 players chosen. Maybe Kawaii could have been replaced with someone like TT1, Aegyo or Sugo.
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Telecom posts should just be ignored to ensure none of your brain cells die when reading on tl
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Yo Sugo really is a good player. Hes one of the few people that can keep up with bonyth before getting destroyed at minute 12. Even drag has to respect sugo, they consider each other long term rivals
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??? Lol this guy said he can easily beat Dandy and now calls Nyoken a top foreigner.
Let's just stop talking about this now guys. The tournaments already started. Just watch it and be happy.
Also, to ggZerg aka Telecom, good post. I agree ... the "IN" crowd...
you actually have no clue what you are typing about. It's hilarious.
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On March 19 2018 05:45 bstuLLs wrote:Show nested quote +??? Lol this guy said he can easily beat Dandy and now calls Nyoken a top foreigner.
Let's just stop talking about this now guys. The tournaments already started. Just watch it and be happy.
Also, to ggZerg aka Telecom, good post. I agree ... the "IN" crowd... you actually have no clue what you are typing about. It's hilarious.
Well, now I just think you've been a first class troll. So if your intention was trolling ... then.... you got me and I fell for it lol.
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Did not appreciate the negative comments, for once, not the best players will get the money, be happy
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This attitude in this thread is the reason everyone makes fun of Broodwar purists.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene.
User was warned for this post
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On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene.
If they're (the guys whining they didn't get picked) getting this worked up over a measly $500 then maybe they should put that effort into getting a better job?
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On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene.
Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene.
The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community.
Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game.
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I think people are a little frustrated cause it is a decent size prize pool and advertised as "NAs finest" with no qualifiers and very little notice on the start of the event. I'm not saying that the players invited are not top tier NA at all. In fact I think the players selected would all have a very good chance on qualifying if there was such a thing. But for some people to post such garbage about a good event is pretty unacceptable, especially jaehoons post
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game.
If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it.
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Results? Can't seem to find them
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incontrol, you're tired. who care that. The event was a success.
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On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it.
Then I welcome you very much to point out what you feel is the cancer in this community. I'm sure the ratio of what cancerous players we have here in Brood War is most definitely higher, but the shear number of players in the SC2 community means you have your fair share too.
During the Zotac Cup you mentioned that you yourself are a troll and that people know that about you. If you are trying to troll us now, let me know, but if you are serious, player to player, Call me out on my bullshit, and call out those who are truly trying to bring this place down.
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On March 19 2018 12:30 Carnations wrote:
Results? Can't seem to find them
KawaiiRice 0-2 Sero
Dragon 2-1 Ty2
Ultra 0-2 Michael
Jaeyun 2-1 Nyoken
Ill have to look at vod to see what maps they chose and played.
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If Tasteless cared about what people said on forums he would have stopped casting years ago, there's a reason why he doesn't read any of the shit ppl say online. This is the internet folks, there's always gonna be shit stirring. Unlike reddit, posts dont get downvoted on TL so they're always gonna be in your face, you just have to deal with it.
BW's been around for 20 years, naturally the players/fanbase are gonna be extremely passionate/vocal about the game. I don't think the BW community is necessarily more toxic than say the SC2 community (this is coming from a player who's been a part of both communities for years, i was also close friends with a lot of the SC2 WoL casters so i know the shit they had to deal with). It's just that posts on TL are way more noticeable. Threads are constantly refreshed, there's no downvotes for controversial posts and they're constantly quoted which results in threads getting derailed, TL is BW's main news/community site etc..
You're obviously gonna get whiners/haters when you host an invite tour, gamers are competitive and they have huge egos. EU players are gonna be salty about NA players getting all the money events. The other competitive NA players are gonna be salty about not getting an invite, all those players have friends/fans that'll support them on the forum.. it's just human nature.
If you wanna have a drama free event you have to host open bracket type tourneys (there's lotsa diff options if you wanna avoid having long 7+ hour tourneys), or run a TSL style ladder qualifier and cast bracket matches afterwards. Naturally those tours require more management/work but if you really wanna make everyone happy and keep threads PG13 that's the only real viable way to go about it.. (unless you do something like voting based showmatches from a pool of the consensus top players.. but even then you're most likely gonna have a few whiners).
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On March 19 2018 12:30 seriosity wrote:
incontrol, you're tired. who care that. The event was a success.
Seri, lol. You managed to work "Who care that" into a post on TL.
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On March 19 2018 13:33 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 12:30 seriosity wrote:
incontrol, you're tired. who care that. The event was a success. Seri, lol. You managed to work "Who care that" into a post on TL.
no1 care that, go to sleep
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On March 19 2018 14:31 littlechava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 13:33 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2018 12:30 seriosity wrote:
incontrol, you're tired. who care that. The event was a success. Seri, lol. You managed to work "Who care that" into a post on TL. no1 care that, go to sleep
lil chava is my best friend in the whole fucken world
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On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it.
But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again.
Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not.
The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars.
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Fun to see even more events taking place! Pretty nice to see there were like 3000 viewers at the time I was watching :D
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On March 19 2018 01:44 art_of_turtle wrote:
Here is a list of some of the best NA Players and SA Players since you seem to think that you can get away from giving criticism without any backbone to your post.
[NA] Sero T, Aegyo Z , Castle P, Michael Z, Dragon P ZVP, Jaeyun Z, Mr.Plow Z, Seriousity P, Faust Z, Babo Z, Lumire Z, Demurity T. (was watching cadenza stream sorry)
[SA] Terror T, Castro Z, Ultra T, Dandy T, Ivionix P, Dienmax P, Zety Z, Wapool P, TerranBoy T, Yugox P.
After that they kinda fall into lower, to casual players.
Thx for including me
On March 19 2018 01:50 EndingLife wrote:Castle, Seriosity, Faust, Lumire and Cadenza included in top NA? Replace them with Hawk, TT1, Sugo; Beast and myself(even if not active ) and you'll have a fairly accurate list.
Thx for not excluding me
/s
Just enjoy events as they are, not how they should be. TBH, idk why Beast is salty, seems kinda trollish cus he's not super active lol
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On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars.
Very well said.
I don't post a lot here but I follow BW pretty religiously, and I watched & enjoyed the stream. Naturally we all have our favourite players that we would have liked to see in the event -- I for one was hoping that Hawk would get a match -- but I do not think the people shitting on it at the start of the thread are representative of the wider Brood War community.
Everyone who truly cares about this game would be wise to show their support for people/organizations that are willing to host tournaments like this with real prizes. That doesn't mean we can't be critical, or suggest a different tournament structure...but we should do it in a less shitty way.
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Great to have events like this. I'm very happy that twitch or someone wants to give money for SC:BW. Maybe thanks to this events in future we will have showmatches with truly best players, not friendly-choosed.
For now this event, ESL, Zotac, Holiday bash, etc are keeping BW alive in "sponsors eyes", so dont hate it people if you want to see this scene strong again !
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars.
No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious.
Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL).
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On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious.
This thread is basically the summation of one person who has no manners and everyone else reprimanding him for it and you're preaching about how toxic our community is?
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On March 20 2018 00:59 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious.
This thread is basically the summation of one person who has no manners and everyone else reprimanding him for it and you're preaching about how toxic our community is?
Leave the thread as it is, and let's focus on what truly matters. The highlights of this good invitational.
+ Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/LazyBrainyIguanaOptimizePrime
+ Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/EvilFragileMacaroniSMOrc
+ Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/MoistPowerfulTermitePhilosoraptor
+ Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/EnchantingNiceTardigradeGingerPower
+ Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/SpunkyMistyHerbsBrainSlug
+ Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/ReliableLachrymoseEyeballMoreCowbell
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On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago
You are involved in a lot of recent BW events that have money around them only because you are in the ' IN ' crowd, the same reason the majority of the players were there in the previous events, not for any other reason.
I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious.
The BW Foreign scene is full of positivity, and also full of negativity because of soothsayers like you and other people who used to play BW, then went to SC2, and came back speaking in absolutes...the truth is that everything you say isn't an absolute, and everything / everyone in the BW foreign scene isn't a negative nancy, it is pretty obvious as to why people would get upset about these IN CROWD BW events, where better / more ample / active players were not chosen or even given a chance to compete, why you may ask? BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN THE IN CROWD, that you are in, and that you kids try so hard to control.
Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL).
The BM is inherently a lot worse in SC2 than it is in BW, and people complain a lot more in the BW Foreign scene as of late because nearly all of these big cash prize events that you have a hand in almost every time, there are no qualifiers, no opportunity for the ACTUAL top foreigners / ACTUAL top NA players to potentially compete in, no voting systems, etc.
It is a bunch of people that have / had a big influence on the scene in the past, playing together, and keeping it within an inner circle, similar to a Monopoly.
So when a bunch of players get upset that they were not even given an opportunity to fight for this money, fame and glory, as one of the ' TOP NA PLAYERS', rather the players were hand picked, 100% biased, to keep the inner circle happy, can you begin to understand why now there are so many people upset with how you and your in crowd choose to run the systems for these big cash events?
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Okay nevermind, I change my opinion. Our community is fucked.
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Don't even bother GGzerg. Just be happy that some poor sap is willing to poor money into the bw scene, that is completely inaccessible to you or any current top foreigner (bonyth, eonzerg, trutacz, koget, sziky, dewalt,...) for that matter. Why can't you just be happy?
Also why can you just be happy that we're now getting tournaments that spend 2750 dollars on 4 matches (announced the day before by a player), instead of epic tournaments like TLS with major qualifiers and 20 legacy cups preceding it, to build up hype and deliver a consistent tournament experience to players and viewers alike.
It's someone else's money, I don't care, I'm just hoping one day the realization will come that it could be spend better à la TLS.
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While I loved the cast and enjoyed the games played, there were three big issues that I saw with Twitch Rivals yesterday. After all, someone has to fight for and defend the deserving players.
1) I think there were more deserving players than KawaiiRice, as he isn't active and doesn't stream. Wasn't it called
"Twitch Rivals"? I think Aegyo or someone else relevant and active deserved to play.
2) Advertising/announcement. Enough said...
3) Michael/Dragon clearly should have been the 1k match, as they were 1st/2nd place in the last Zotac tourney and have showed better results than JY/Nyoken as of recent, or ever... (Minus WCG back in the day)
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I think there are valid claims being made on both sides of this discussion. It is likely that iNcontrol is aware of some things that have happened/are happening behind the scenes that most of us here are not privy to. No doubt we should take his comments into consideration, and be more proactive about showing love to those who are willing to invest in this scene. It is important that we prevent the vocal minority of trolls and dickheads from dominating the discussion. iNc has been a pillar of the community for many years (imo) and we should not so quickly dismiss what he's saying here.
Conversely, I also think it is fair to criticize the way that players are selected for events like this. I would suggest that we can both show our support for things like this while also voicing legitimate concerns about how invitationals are run. The best players should be rewarded with opportunities and exposure.
I don't know though, maybe this is a dumb comment... In any case, I love this game and it makes me really happy to see that people are still willing to invest their time, energy and even money into this scene. We should do whatever we can to ensure that that never changes.
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On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL).
Ok, we get that you don't like us and that's fair. Please do not feel obligated to post in BW forums.
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This forum is so damn tame compared to other gaming communities that it's beyond ridiculous to try and label it as "toxic"
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On March 20 2018 01:10 art_of_turtle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:59 SCC-Faust wrote:On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious.
This thread is basically the summation of one person who has no manners and everyone else reprimanding him for it and you're preaching about how toxic our community is? + Show Spoiler +https://clips.twitch.tv/EvilFragileMacaroniSMOrc
lol that totally looked like he parasited the barracks, the tank just teleported away
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TLADT24920 Posts
Cmon guys, let's play nice! Critique has its place in general so long as it's on point and reasonable.
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On March 20 2018 02:24 BigFan wrote:
Cmon guys, let's play nice! Critique has its place in general so long as it's on point and reasonable.
Please point out the critiques in this thread that are not on point and reasonable excluding the guy who was banned, and the guy who has less then 10 posts. If the criteria is set, then maybe a reasonable discussion can continue. As far as I am concerned the majority of posters have posted valid points and critiques, as well engaging in the conversation.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On March 20 2018 02:49 art_of_turtle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 02:24 BigFan wrote:
Cmon guys, let's play nice! Critique has its place in general so long as it's on point and reasonable. Please point out the critiques in this thread that are not on point and reasonable excluding the guy who was banned, and the guy who has less then 10 posts. If the criteria is set, then maybe a reasonable discussion can continue. As far as I am concerned the majority of posters have posted valid points and critiques, as well engaging in the conversation.
You realize that I banned him, right? Also, this comment wasn't directed at you so don't take it personally, was just a general comment to prevent a potential thread meltdown with some of the more recent comments.
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Tnx SchAmToo! Great matches and great casting.
ZombieGrub was a really nice addition to casting team. You two could make Tastosis run for their money!
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Okay so I wanna address some stuff here that i haven't seen mentioned yet. I do believe a lot of criticisms have validity, but I feel like most people who are upset are missing some serious perspective.
1) To address the in group favoritism, I can see how a lot of people might feel that this is an issue. However, there are a number of reasons why I think you're wrong. Firstly, a lot of people who feel they should have been included (jaehoon, sugo, etc.) fail to realize that in order to get selected for events, you kinda gotta engage the people who plan them. I'm not saying you have to be besties, but for example, I still have no idea who sugo is and where jaehoon has been for the better part of 4-5 months. BW doesn't have an established competitive circuit to help shine a light on who is still playing and who just came back to sc and who's kicking ass in super secret invite only gosu practice seshes. the team organizing this event was basically machine, schamtoo, and myself (to a more minor extent).
2) I am not sure why the event was americas only, but I suspect technical issues like lag could have been a consideration. additionally, maybe the intention was to specifically target na, as our scene is the deadest as far as reigons go.
3) as awesome as having open qualifiers and huge awesome tours leading up to these events would be, brood war literally doesnt have enough people in places like twitch who would give enough of a shit to organize and sponsor and officiate and advertise and produce such an intensive undertaking. I think the hope for these events is to just bring attention and excitement to sc in the hopes that it might help resuscitate our otherwise dead game.
4) I've got a bit more but my Lunch is over so later tonight i guess
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 20 2018 01:58 Immaterial wrote:
I think there are valid claims being made on both sides of this discussion. It is likely that iNcontrol is aware of some things that have happened/are happening behind the scenes that most of us here are not privy to. No doubt we should take his comments into consideration, and be more proactive about showing love to those who are willing to invest in this scene. It is important that we prevent the vocal minority of trolls and dickheads from dominating the discussion. iNc has been a pillar of the community for many years (imo) and we should not so quickly dismiss what he's saying here.
Conversely, I also think it is fair to criticize the way that players are selected for events like this. I would suggest that we can both show our support for things like this while also voicing legitimate concerns about how invitationals are run. The best players should be rewarded with opportunities and exposure.
I don't know though, maybe this is a dumb comment... In any case, I love this game and it makes me really happy to see that people are still willing to invest their time, energy and even money into this scene. We should do whatever we can to ensure that that never changes.
Thank you. Completely fair and reasonable. Criticizing is fine. The level people take it and how it is in EVERY BW THREAD that has any money/invites at all is insane.
I love this idea though that for some reason people think I gain anything by saying what I do? Like, I don't even post on TL but when I do it's to say something along the lines of "you guys are doing something bad" and people are like "YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO CAUSE HARM!" what? I can convincingly tell you I am having the hardest time getting Blizzard motivated to do anything for SC:R and a huge part of that is the community is toxic and negative about everything. You want to think I am making that up? Why? What do I get out of making that up? What precedent is there for that? Have I been known to make shit up and talk about it publicly?
Dunno man.You can either be a guy who wants to shout me down and assume I don't know what I am talking about or.. you could take a 20 year veteran of the scene's words into account. It's a shame but it's no hair off my back. Going to continue to do what I do with or without people like ggzerg etc.
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On March 20 2018 04:08 docholiday_tv wrote:
Okay so I wanna address some stuff here that i haven't seen mentioned yet. I do believe a lot of criticisms have validity, but I feel like most people who are upset are missing some serious perspective.
1) To address the in group favoritism, I can see how a lot of people might feel that this is an issue. However, there are a number of reasons why I think you're wrong. Firstly, a lot of people who feel they should have been included (jaehoon, sugo, etc.) fail to realize that in order to get selected for events, you kinda gotta engage the people who plan them. I'm not saying you have to be besties, but for example, I still have no idea who sugo is.
This is not a valid argument or point even, you shouldn't have to go out of your way as a player and find someone considerably in this ' in ' crowd and tweet @ them, email them, PM them, DM them, stalk them essentially to be able to hopefully engage with them, build a rapport with them, and then hopefully they will pull some strings for you to get you into the event.
That is absurd, that is favoritism, that is a monopoly essentially. It is not efficient, fair, or equal to all players who bust their asses practicing instead of kissing ass and sucking up to people who have the power to pull the strings to make these sorts of things happen.
Sure, spilling pointless $ into the scene is great, it attracts attention, it gives players $, it hopefully causes it to flourish and grow at a more exponential level.
But this is why there are Qualifiers, Voting systems, etc.
Something like TLS for example, a good system.
P.S. - DocHoliday you probably don't know who SuGo for the same reason you think players need to engage with event hosters to get invited to private in crowd events.
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On March 20 2018 04:27 iNcontroL wrote:
Going to continue to do what I do with or without people like ggzerg etc.
I guess I did make this into sort of a personal attack, which it wasn't and I apologize it if seems that way, me and you have had beef in the past for w/e reason I don't really care as it was so far in the past. I personally think you are one of the best casters i've seen, a lot of energy / charisma, and a really awesome personality, also hilarious jokes.
I have even tweeted you recently about how awesome I thought your event hosting / casting was in the previous events you did, although that doesn't change the fact that there is obvious favoritism / in crowd monopoly like event hosting going on. It wasn't meant to be a personal attack though, my apologies.
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@Ggzerg dude i think you are super right about how things SHOULD be, but you have to realize the current realities that are faced by organizers . as stated, it isn't like twitch intentionally excluded people, they just aren't omniscient. the scene is pretty nebulous. You are certainly correct that in an ideal world, things would go that way, but until then it's like 3 passionate ass people doing their best to religitimize SC so we can get to that point.
also I don't know sugo cuz I've basically been engaged with the community for a little under a year, and as stated am not in fact omniscient
oh and for the record I don't mean to imply you even need to talk with organizers. just get yourself noticed SOMEHOW. Stream, create YouTube content, organize an event, just be somewhere where you can actually be seen.
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@everyone
There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go "Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments?
So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something.
On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive.
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Guys if you want the scene to be less of an in-crowd type of thing, just stop supporting them until it changes completely. Stop tuning in. The only reason they get these money deals is because the entity or entities sponsoring the events think that the in-crowd has influence over the masses. Continuing to support them will only reinforce that idea and provide incentive for the sponsors to continue funneling money towards the same group of players. If you want it to be less in-crowd oriented, don't support it until everything is open qualification. This means don't talk about them, don't bump their threads(bury them by bumping others) and continue to promote the idea of open qualification/equal opportunity/speaking against invitationals. Just remember, these players are only getting these deals because you continue to watch them.
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Meh, hasn't the digression reached a point now where it's better suited via PMs rather than a continued string of back and forth posts from people who'll probably never agree?
Some people love the event, some people hate the event and some people think it's not ideal but great nonetheless. For elaboration, view pages 1-6.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive.
Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K
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On March 20 2018 04:08 docholiday_tv wrote:
and where jaehoon has been for the better part of 4-5 months.
4) I've got a bit more but my Lunch is over so later tonight i guess
Just an FYI jaehoon beat eonzerg in SKTL. random fact
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On March 20 2018 05:27 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive. Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K
Well, I'll be looking forward to you popping in a few months from now to let us know how toxic we all are in another thread.
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On March 20 2018 05:27 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive. Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K
You are the most ridiculous figure I have seen in a while with a really crazy need to push your unimportant and uninformed opinions in threads while handing out insults randomly, most times hitting people known to exactly doing the opposite of what you accuse them of. Jesus Christ, get your shit together and stop coming in here if you can only sound like a broken record.
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On March 20 2018 05:30 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 04:08 docholiday_tv wrote:
and where jaehoon has been for the better part of 4-5 months.
4) I've got a bit more but my Lunch is over so later tonight i guess Just an FYI jaehoon beat eonzerg in SKTL. random fact
you telling me this no name guy Nas.beast is crying cuz he wasnt invite ?on top of that cuz he won me one game when i was playing the whole week starcraft2 thanks to blizzard and their changes to SC RM ?
i can understand sugo ,he is good,he streams,i can understand Dandy or Terror be sad, but Beast ? who is that LOL
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TBH this thread has kinda lost it's direction. maybe it's time to close?
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On March 20 2018 05:57 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:30 Gorgonoth wrote:On March 20 2018 04:08 docholiday_tv wrote:
and where jaehoon has been for the better part of 4-5 months.
4) I've got a bit more but my Lunch is over so later tonight i guess Just an FYI jaehoon beat eonzerg in SKTL. random fact you telling me this no name guy Nas.beast is crying cuz he wasnt invite ?on top of that cuz he won me one game when i was playing the whole week starcraft2 thanks to blizzard and their changes to SC RM ? i can understand sugo ,he is good,he streams,i can understand Dandy or Terror be sad, but Beast ? who is that LOL
Wasn't sayin that he should be invite, just that he has been active.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 20 2018 05:56 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:27 iNcontroL wrote:On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive. Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K You are the most ridiculous figure I have seen in a while with a really crazy need to push your unimportant and uninformed opinions in threads while handing out insults randomly, most times hitting people known to exactly doing the opposite of what you accuse them of. Jesus Christ, get your shit together and stop coming in here if you can only sound like a broken record.
nothing toxic here nina. Cya next time I do some bw thing and it's a thread like this again lol
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On March 19 2018 04:24 castleeMg wrote:
Telecom posts should just be ignored to ensure none of your brain cells die when reading on tl
I agree. He is so pretentious.
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On March 20 2018 06:17 Alpha-NP- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 04:24 castleeMg wrote:
Telecom posts should just be ignored to ensure none of your brain cells die when reading on tl I agree. He is so pretentious.
You could say that, but he's posted well thought out and pretty quality posts so far. Not sure what the hate is against him -- he's posted simply his opinion so far without barraging others. It's just a healthy discussion.
I think some folks are taking a "healthy forum discussion" and turning it into something truly over the top. For instance, NinaZerg addressed incontrol already so I won't chime in on that.
As for everyone else, there's really three train of thoughts, and if you can speak to your side in a respectful manner, no one should have an issue posting here...
1) You feel the "top" NA list could have been better.
2) You feel the event and the participants were fine.
3) You don't care at all but you're posting here anyways.
Pick your bucket and keep it respectful enough.
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On March 20 2018 06:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:56 GeckoXp wrote:On March 20 2018 05:27 iNcontroL wrote:On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive. Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K You are the most ridiculous figure I have seen in a while with a really crazy need to push your unimportant and uninformed opinions in threads while handing out insults randomly, most times hitting people known to exactly doing the opposite of what you accuse them of. Jesus Christ, get your shit together and stop coming in here if you can only sound like a broken record. nothing toxic here nina. Cya next time I do some bw thing and it's a thread like this again lol
Don't be too upset, if you try to actually contribute, I might change my mind. Until then, thanks for nothing.
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On March 20 2018 05:57 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:30 Gorgonoth wrote:On March 20 2018 04:08 docholiday_tv wrote:
and where jaehoon has been for the better part of 4-5 months.
4) I've got a bit more but my Lunch is over so later tonight i guess Just an FYI jaehoon beat eonzerg in SKTL. random fact you telling me this no name guy Nas.beast is crying cuz he wasnt invite ?on top of that cuz he won me one game when i was playing the whole week starcraft2 thanks to blizzard and their changes to SC RM ? i can understand sugo ,he is good,he streams,i can understand Dandy or Terror be sad, but Beast ? who is that LOL
Lol guys, there is literally no point to bring anyone who isnt NA/SA into this argument. Leave eonzerg alone.
And bringing up random records doesn't really help the case here either / isn't the point of what's happening here...
(plus a record isn't a good arguing point)
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Bulgaria750 Posts
I never imagined there would be such a bitter thread, ever. I guess I don't follow gaming forums too much.
Is it because of the money? $1k is not a lousy amount, but all this bickering over some guys picking (not arbitrarily) some other guys to basically give them money? Come on. I understand for most of the people involved BW is a passion, but are any of you making a living off the game?
I find the bitterness and primadonna attitude of people that have allegedly been around since forever even more amazing. I was TEN years old when BW came out. Even if some people entered the scene at a much later point, we're all in our late twenties/thirties. I seriously mean that as grow up. Please.
And I completely understand that both sides have valid points, but this is no excuse for such petty bickering over one event with eight players in it. That is not to say that most of the comments weren't civilized, but the whole thing is very... bitter and tense. I am, quite frankly, disappointed. If a casual viewer being disappointed actually means something.
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On March 20 2018 06:52 TaardadAiel wrote:
I never imagined there would be such a bitter thread, ever. I guess I don't follow gaming forums too much.
Is it because of the money? $1k is not a lousy amount, but all this bickering over some guys picking (not arbitrarily) some other guys to basically give them money? Come on. I understand for most of the people involved BW is a passion, but is any of you making a living off the game?
I find the bitterness and primadonna attitude of people that have allegedly been around since forever even more amazing. I was TEN years old when BW came out. Even if some people entered the scene at a much later point, we're all in our late twenties/thirties. I seriously mean that as grow up. Please.
And I completely understand that both sides have valid points, but this is no excuse for such petty bickering over one event with eight players in it. That is not to say that most of the comments weren't civilized, but the whole thing is very... bitter and tense. I am, quite frankly, disappointed. If a casual viewer being disappointed actually means something.
This is fair. It is a bit bitter, I can agree with it.
I think the point really is, and I believe (ggzerg aka Telecom) said it best in some previous post ... but really, it's not about the money. Rather, it's about people in the "IN" crowd being selected (e.g. friends of schamatoo, Machine, etc). And I guess, at the end of the day, that's life. It is about who you know. #corporateamerica
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On March 20 2018 06:56 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 06:52 TaardadAiel wrote:
I never imagined there would be such a bitter thread, ever. I guess I don't follow gaming forums too much.
Is it because of the money? $1k is not a lousy amount, but all this bickering over some guys picking (not arbitrarily) some other guys to basically give them money? Come on. I understand for most of the people involved BW is a passion, but is any of you making a living off the game?
I find the bitterness and primadonna attitude of people that have allegedly been around since forever even more amazing. I was TEN years old when BW came out. Even if some people entered the scene at a much later point, we're all in our late twenties/thirties. I seriously mean that as grow up. Please.
And I completely understand that both sides have valid points, but this is no excuse for such petty bickering over one event with eight players in it. That is not to say that most of the comments weren't civilized, but the whole thing is very... bitter and tense. I am, quite frankly, disappointed. If a casual viewer being disappointed actually means something. This is fair. It is a bit bitter, I can agree with it. I think the point really is, and I believe (ggzerg aka Telecom) said it best in some previous post ... but really, it's not about the money. Rather, it's about people in the "IN" crowd being selected (e.g. friends of schamatoo, Machine, etc). And I guess, at the end of the day, that's life. It is about who you know. #corporateamerica
You're probably right. But then, I can't help but wonder - if so many people are disapproving of that "inner circle" and the way the NA scene works, how come there's been no alternative to said circle? No competition. Do these people have the means to monopolize somehow? I'm not even american, so maybe it's just a psychological blind spot to me, a culture thing, maybe. And yea, the only reason I decided to post in a thread about a strictly internal NA issue is that I saw it being on top, it was about a tournament, I decided there would be a nice little discussion about some nice games between good foreigners... well, that's not what it was. So maybe I have no right to argue here, but I mean it as the voice of a neutral bystander.
Anyway, I really hope some of the differences can be worked out. The foreign BW content and scene is a bit thin as it is, so it just seems counterproductive to have such a big argument instead of playing and/or creating more content, if you disapprove of the way certain people create events.
Good luck and g'nite all.
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On March 20 2018 06:56 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 06:52 TaardadAiel wrote:
I never imagined there would be such a bitter thread, ever. I guess I don't follow gaming forums too much.
Is it because of the money? $1k is not a lousy amount, but all this bickering over some guys picking (not arbitrarily) some other guys to basically give them money? Come on. I understand for most of the people involved BW is a passion, but is any of you making a living off the game?
I find the bitterness and primadonna attitude of people that have allegedly been around since forever even more amazing. I was TEN years old when BW came out. Even if some people entered the scene at a much later point, we're all in our late twenties/thirties. I seriously mean that as grow up. Please.
And I completely understand that both sides have valid points, but this is no excuse for such petty bickering over one event with eight players in it. That is not to say that most of the comments weren't civilized, but the whole thing is very... bitter and tense. I am, quite frankly, disappointed. If a casual viewer being disappointed actually means something. This is fair. It is a bit bitter, I can agree with it. I think the point really is, and I believe (ggzerg aka Telecom) said it best in some previous post ... but really, it's not about the money. Rather, it's about people in the "IN" crowd being selected (e.g. friends of schamatoo, Machine, etc). And I guess, at the end of the day, that's life. It is about who you know. #corporateamerica
Go play in this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/532165-have-at-you-12-its-back-double-the-prizepool
Beat some notable people. Or win.
Right now, the only time I hear people talk about you is to say "SuGo is really bm".
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Thanks for the promo, Nina.
If you're looking to win an open, I host one next week. It's $200 prizepool starting and will happen every other week.
Some people in this thread keep saying "host an open if you don't want drama" and forget that Have At You and FilthyCup both got tons of drama over letting Scan in, and a bunch of random other things. So, I guess it's "host an open that is exactly how we like it" to those people.
I just want you all to have fun and have events you and I both love. It's all I'm looking to do. I love this game too much to stop, but god damn I'll complain about how hard some of the people in threads make this. Is it the whole community? No. It's my perception tho that threads like these make it seem like it is because, well, most of this thread is arguing. I think I'd hope people were a bit more self-conscience about bickering in threads on off-topic statements. If a large majority of a thread is arguing, and not even about the event itself, it does come off as "toxic". It's a "negative" thing to read.
Anyway, love you all, even if sometimes I wanna rip my hair out by reading threads. Thank you for tuning in and being engaged.
<3
Schamtoo
Edit: And I hope the random threats to not attend things I'm involved with isn't serious. However, if you all really want me out of the scene, I'll oblige. I don't want this scene to be punished because of my presence. I'll just spend more time finding new v-necks :D
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On March 20 2018 07:27 SchAmToo wrote:
Edit: And I hope the random threats to not attend things I'm involved with isn't serious. However, if you all really want me out of the scene, I'll oblige. I don't want this scene to be punished because of my presence. I'll just spend more time finding new v-necks :D
That was a well thought out post, and no, don't leave. The majority of us are extremely appreciate of what you do for the scene. Without you, Qikz, and ZZZero, there would be almost nothing left for the foreign Brood War players to do.
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On March 20 2018 07:27 SchAmToo wrote:
Thanks for the promo, Nina.
If you're looking to win an open, I host one next week. It's $200 prizepool starting and will happen every other week.
Some people in this thread keep saying "host an open if you don't want drama" and forget that Have At You and FilthyCup both got tons of drama over letting Scan in, and a bunch of random other things. So, I guess it's "host an open that is exactly how we like it" to those people.
I just want you all to have fun and have events you and I both love. It's all I'm looking to do. I love this game too much to stop, but god damn I'll complain about how hard some of the people in threads make this. Is it the whole community? No. It's my perception tho that threads like these make it seem like it is because, well, most of this thread is arguing. I think I'd hope people were a bit more self-conscience about bickering in threads on off-topic statements. If a large majority of a thread is arguing, and not even about the event itself, it does come off as "toxic". It's a "negative" thing to read.
Anyway, love you all, even if sometimes I wanna rip my hair out by reading threads. Thank you for tuning in and being engaged.
<3
Schamtoo
Edit: And I hope the random threats to not attend things I'm involved with isn't serious. However, if you all really want me out of the scene, I'll oblige. I don't want this scene to be punished because of my presence. I'll just spend more time finding new v-necks :D
No one wants you to leave. Incase it wasn't clear enough, players are tired of the same pool of guys getting free passes. Enough of the free passes already and run a real qualification event that turns into a real tourney that displays the real top players. Everyone has an equal opportunity, everyone wins. This also allows for new storylines to be made and allow old legends to fade away leaving room for new ones. Players shouldn't be allowed to carry a torch without having to earn it time and time again.
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On March 20 2018 07:27 SchAmToo wrote:
Thanks for the promo, Nina.
If you're looking to win an open, I host one next week. It's $200 prizepool starting and will happen every other week.
Some people in this thread keep saying "host an open if you don't want drama" and forget that Have At You and FilthyCup both got tons of drama over letting Scan in, and a bunch of random other things. So, I guess it's "host an open that is exactly how we like it" to those people.
I just want you all to have fun and have events you and I both love. It's all I'm looking to do. I love this game too much to stop, but god damn I'll complain about how hard some of the people in threads make this. Is it the whole community? No. It's my perception tho that threads like these make it seem like it is because, well, most of this thread is arguing. I think I'd hope people were a bit more self-conscience about bickering in threads on off-topic statements. If a large majority of a thread is arguing, and not even about the event itself, it does come off as "toxic". It's a "negative" thing to read.
Anyway, love you all, even if sometimes I wanna rip my hair out by reading threads. Thank you for tuning in and being engaged.
<3
Schamtoo
Edit: And I hope the random threats to not attend things I'm involved with isn't serious. However, if you all really want me out of the scene, I'll oblige. I don't want this scene to be punished because of my presence. I'll just spend more time finding new v-necks :D
Thank you for hosting these events, truly. I can't imagine anyone genuinely wants you out of the scene... So definitely don't leave ^_^
For every negative Nancy complaining endlessly on the forums there are at least 10 lurkers who watch & enjoy the content with no complaints. And in light of iNcontrol's remarks, I think it is imperative that those of us who don't post often (like myself) make an effort to post and offer words of support... I think that would go a long way toward clearing away the grey cloud of negativity that occasionally pervades threads like this.
Again, for emphasis - THANK YOU so much for contributing to the scene like you have. So many of us appreciate it immensely. And thanks as well to folks like iNcontrol and others who are trying to revitalize BW -- whether by hosting tournaments, engaging with Blizzard, etc.
Tournaments and their organizers are rarely perfect, but that's okay. We shouldn't expect that every tournament will be organized precisely how we want it, nor that every player we like will be invited/qualify. There is a line between constructive criticism and just needlessly shitting on things... As a community I hope we will make an effort to stick to the former.
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On March 20 2018 07:49 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 07:27 SchAmToo wrote:
Thanks for the promo, Nina.
If you're looking to win an open, I host one next week. It's $200 prizepool starting and will happen every other week.
Some people in this thread keep saying "host an open if you don't want drama" and forget that Have At You and FilthyCup both got tons of drama over letting Scan in, and a bunch of random other things. So, I guess it's "host an open that is exactly how we like it" to those people.
I just want you all to have fun and have events you and I both love. It's all I'm looking to do. I love this game too much to stop, but god damn I'll complain about how hard some of the people in threads make this. Is it the whole community? No. It's my perception tho that threads like these make it seem like it is because, well, most of this thread is arguing. I think I'd hope people were a bit more self-conscience about bickering in threads on off-topic statements. If a large majority of a thread is arguing, and not even about the event itself, it does come off as "toxic". It's a "negative" thing to read.
Anyway, love you all, even if sometimes I wanna rip my hair out by reading threads. Thank you for tuning in and being engaged.
<3
Schamtoo
Edit: And I hope the random threats to not attend things I'm involved with isn't serious. However, if you all really want me out of the scene, I'll oblige. I don't want this scene to be punished because of my presence. I'll just spend more time finding new v-necks :D No one wants you to leave. Incase it wasn't clear enough, players are tired of the same pool of guys getting free passes. Enough of the free passes already and run a real qualification event that turns into a real tourney that displays the real top players. Everyone has an equal opportunity, everyone wins. This also allows for new storylines to be made and allow old legends to fade away leaving room for new ones. Players shouldn't be allowed to carry a torch without having to earn it time and time again.
Well said. Even some of the players who have no interest in playing, like myself, want to see other deserving players (Aegyo, TT1, Sugo, Hawk, GoShox etc) get a chance to fight it out for some money.
Even if I don't understand the reasoning behind some of the actions Schamtoo and others made regarding the showmatch, I still appreciate him for casting/hosting these events and want to see him around in the future.
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On March 20 2018 07:49 ReachTheSky wrote:
No one wants you to leave. Incase it wasn't clear enough, players are tired of the same pool of guys getting free passes. Enough of the free passes already and run a real qualification event that turns into a real tourney that displays the real top players. Everyone has an equal opportunity, everyone wins. This also allows for new storylines to be made and allow old legends to fade away leaving room for new ones. Players shouldn't be allowed to carry a torch without having to earn it time and time again.
Just so you're actually aware, I compiled all of the biggest foreigner tournaments of 2017-2018 who attended from the invitee list (all from liquipedia because the foreign rank site http://prorm.webd.pl/rekin5/ shut down) and compared them to Beast/Sugo, whom are under the impression that there is some inner circle of people being picked instead of "the top players". Also note that the invited players all have at least one decent finish, where as Sugo/Beast have never obtained RO8 or above in these. There may be some inaccurate data here, as I tried to get everyones AKAS but if people were playing under an alias I'm unfamiliar with, they were not included for these tournaments.
If you want to be known as a top player and want to get invited for invitationals, the first thing you probably want to do before you throw fingers at people and make claims of them stuffing their friends pockets is... actually being good at the game. Everyone wants to make claims of how other people should've been invited, but we aren't seeing any actual names or reasons. On top of actually finishing well in at least one tournament, Kawairice, Michael, and Nyoken are people that attract viewers. I'm sure there is a lot more that goes into the selection of an invitational than just pure skill.
So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread.
Invited players:
- Kawaiirice - ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
- Sero - TLOpen1, TLOpen5, TLOpen7, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
- DragOn - TLOpen1, TLOpen2, TLOpen4, TLOpen5, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2
- Ty2 - CFC4, CFC5, CFC6, CFC7, CFC8, CFC9, CFC10, CFC11, CFC12, CFChristmas, CFC14, CFC15, CFC16, TLOpen1, TLOpen2, TLOpen5, TLOpen7, HAY1, HAY2, HAY3, HAY4, HAY5, HAY6, HAY7, HAY8, HAY9, HAY10, HAY11, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
- UltrA - ZOTACSA1, ZOTACSA2
- Michael - TLOpen1, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2
- Nyoken - HAY9, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3
- Jaeyun - ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
Beast - TLOpen4, ZOTACNA1
Sugo - HAY3, HAY6, HAY8, HAY11
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On March 20 2018 07:15 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 06:56 ProtossGG wrote:On March 20 2018 06:52 TaardadAiel wrote:
I never imagined there would be such a bitter thread, ever. I guess I don't follow gaming forums too much.
Is it because of the money? $1k is not a lousy amount, but all this bickering over some guys picking (not arbitrarily) some other guys to basically give them money? Come on. I understand for most of the people involved BW is a passion, but is any of you making a living off the game?
I find the bitterness and primadonna attitude of people that have allegedly been around since forever even more amazing. I was TEN years old when BW came out. Even if some people entered the scene at a much later point, we're all in our late twenties/thirties. I seriously mean that as grow up. Please.
And I completely understand that both sides have valid points, but this is no excuse for such petty bickering over one event with eight players in it. That is not to say that most of the comments weren't civilized, but the whole thing is very... bitter and tense. I am, quite frankly, disappointed. If a casual viewer being disappointed actually means something. This is fair. It is a bit bitter, I can agree with it. I think the point really is, and I believe (ggzerg aka Telecom) said it best in some previous post ... but really, it's not about the money. Rather, it's about people in the "IN" crowd being selected (e.g. friends of schamatoo, Machine, etc). And I guess, at the end of the day, that's life. It is about who you know. #corporateamerica Go play in this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/532165-have-at-you-12-its-back-double-the-prizepoolBeat some notable people. Or win. Right now, the only time I hear people talk about you is to say "SuGo is really bm".
1) I work 100+ hours a week. Forgive me if I'd rather use my weekends to socialize with friends and family instead.
2) I'm not BM at all, so if you've heard that, it's wrong. You shouldn't take everything you hear to be true. Do you do that?
3) I don't care if I'm not in this anymore. I did the first day of the thread, but it is what it is now. If I'm not considered a top player by tournament admins, that's fine. I'm not losing any sleep at night. If you take note, OTHER people have been posting about me.
I've simply been posting because I do agree with the whole "inner-circle" concept. That's my opinion as it is others in this thread... it is a forum, we can have opinions. What you're saying to me is a bit irrelevant, though.
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On March 20 2018 08:12 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 07:15 ninazerg wrote:On March 20 2018 06:56 ProtossGG wrote:On March 20 2018 06:52 TaardadAiel wrote:
I never imagined there would be such a bitter thread, ever. I guess I don't follow gaming forums too much.
Is it because of the money? $1k is not a lousy amount, but all this bickering over some guys picking (not arbitrarily) some other guys to basically give them money? Come on. I understand for most of the people involved BW is a passion, but is any of you making a living off the game?
I find the bitterness and primadonna attitude of people that have allegedly been around since forever even more amazing. I was TEN years old when BW came out. Even if some people entered the scene at a much later point, we're all in our late twenties/thirties. I seriously mean that as grow up. Please.
And I completely understand that both sides have valid points, but this is no excuse for such petty bickering over one event with eight players in it. That is not to say that most of the comments weren't civilized, but the whole thing is very... bitter and tense. I am, quite frankly, disappointed. If a casual viewer being disappointed actually means something. This is fair. It is a bit bitter, I can agree with it. I think the point really is, and I believe (ggzerg aka Telecom) said it best in some previous post ... but really, it's not about the money. Rather, it's about people in the "IN" crowd being selected (e.g. friends of schamatoo, Machine, etc). And I guess, at the end of the day, that's life. It is about who you know. #corporateamerica Go play in this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/532165-have-at-you-12-its-back-double-the-prizepoolBeat some notable people. Or win. Right now, the only time I hear people talk about you is to say "SuGo is really bm". 1) I work 100+ hours a week. Forgive me if I'd rather use my weekends to socialize with friends and family instead. 2) I'm not BM at all, so if you've heard that, it's wrong. You shouldn't take everything you hear to be true. Do you do that? 3) I don't care if I'm not in this anymore. I did the first day of the thread, but it is what it is now. If I'm not considered a top player by tournament admins, that's fine. I'm not losing any sleep at night.
Don't feel bad, I respect ladder warriors a lot more than I do most tournament players. Not all of us have the time available to compete weekend after weekend in tournaments. Some people hold tournament winners in high regard, I hold ladder warriors with gosu stats and high rating in high regard. A bigger sample size of games always trumps a smaller sample size when determining ones skill.
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On March 20 2018 08:08 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 07:49 ReachTheSky wrote:
No one wants you to leave. Incase it wasn't clear enough, players are tired of the same pool of guys getting free passes. Enough of the free passes already and run a real qualification event that turns into a real tourney that displays the real top players. Everyone has an equal opportunity, everyone wins. This also allows for new storylines to be made and allow old legends to fade away leaving room for new ones. Players shouldn't be allowed to carry a torch without having to earn it time and time again.
Just so you're actually aware, I compiled all of the biggest foreigner tournaments of 2017-2018 who attended from the invitee list (all from liquipedia because the foreign rank site http://prorm.webd.pl/rekin5/ shut down) and compared them to Beast/Sugo, whom are under the impression that there is some inner circle of people being picked instead of "the top players". Also note that the invited players all have at least one decent finish, where as Sugo/Beast have never obtained RO8 or above in these. There may be some inaccurate data here, as I tried to get everyones AKAS but if people were playing under an alias I'm unfamiliar with, they were not included for these tournaments. If you want to be known as a top player and want to get invited for invitationals, the first thing you probably want to do before you throw fingers at people and make claims of them stuffing their friends pockets is... actually being good at the game. Everyone wants to make claims of how other people should've been invited, but we aren't seeing any actual names or reasons. On top of actually finishing well in at least one tournament, Kawairice, Michael, and Nyoken are people that attract viewers. I'm sure there is a lot more that goes into the selection of an invitational than just pure skill. So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread.
Invited players:- Kawaiirice - ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
- Sero - TLOpen1, TLOpen5, TLOpen7, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
- DragOn - TLOpen1, TLOpen2, TLOpen4, TLOpen5, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2
- Ty2 - CFC4, CFC5, CFC6, CFC7, CFC8, CFC9, CFC10, CFC11, CFC12, CFChristmas, CFC14, CFC15, CFC16, TLOpen1, TLOpen2, TLOpen5, TLOpen7, HAY1, HAY2, HAY3, HAY4, HAY5, HAY6, HAY7, HAY8, HAY9, HAY10, HAY11, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
- UltrA - ZOTACSA1, ZOTACSA2
- Michael - TLOpen1, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2
- Nyoken - HAY9, ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3
- Jaeyun - ZOTACNA1, ZOTACNA2, ZOTACNA3, ZOTACNA4
Beast - TLOpen4, ZOTACNA1 Sugo - HAY3, HAY6, HAY8, HAY11
You seemed to miss the part where I never said other players should be included over some on the list. The ENTIRE THING should be open qual. Force players to continue to prove themself instead of this oldboys club, network circle jerk that constantly goes on(gets pretty old tbh and there are only so many ways you can spin that same damn storyline). You may want to read posts carefully before responding to someone that does not share the same stance with you.
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Norway28585 Posts
beautiful post faust.
and protossgg lol? you work 100+ hour weeks? You realize that this is 14-15 hours per day including saturday+sunday or 20 hours per day from monday to friday right? Doesn't really give you enough time to post on forums, socialize with friends or family, play enough bw to stay at a reasonably decent level, or participate in invite tournaments.
Anyway. People aren't going to be invited for tournaments if they don't put themselves out there for others to see how good they are. That much should be plainly obvious imo. It's not about 'networking and making sure you know the right people', it's about not being so insular and smurfy that only your own closest friends have any semblance of understanding of how good you actually are.
Final tidbit : I am really appreciative towards all brood war content creators. I love playing in this game, and I like playing tournaments a lot more than I like playing casual games or ladder or whatever. I think everybody who has been involved in the internet for a while should understand that mostly everything gets some negative feedback from some people, and should be accustomed to that. I also think on some occasions, the negative feedback has been entirely out of line and proportion. But it's not true that 'it's a toxic community negative towards everybody' or any variant thereof.
Zzzero has been hosting events for a couple months now. Aside from a couple players being a bit disappointed that he included sparkle in the bsl final map pool, I pretty much haven't seen a single negative response to anything he has done.
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That's a lot of overhead to run an open.
Not so much for an invitational.
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On March 20 2018 08:27 ReachTheSky wrote:
You seemed to miss the part where I never said other players should be included over some on the list. The ENTIRE THING should be open qual. Force players to continue to prove themself instead of this oldboys club, network circle jerk that constantly goes on. You may want to read posts carefully before responding to someone that does not share the same stance with you.
Dude, I read your post and I was pointing out the exact thing you're bitching about. Maybe you're the one who missed the point? Also, as hilarious as this is, THERE WAS an open qualifier tournament. It was called BSL, and Ty2, Jaeyun, and UltrA qualified. None of the players crying in this thread about some old boy club qualified... and yet you guys are advocating for a "open qual" tournament. I can't believe this is real, because it is so hilarious it is borderline sad.
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Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch have been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad.
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Norway28585 Posts
On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad.
the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community.
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On March 20 2018 08:33 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:27 ReachTheSky wrote:
You seemed to miss the part where I never said other players should be included over some on the list. The ENTIRE THING should be open qual. Force players to continue to prove themself instead of this oldboys club, network circle jerk that constantly goes on. You may want to read posts carefully before responding to someone that does not share the same stance with you.
Dude, I read your post and I was pointing out the exact thing you're bitching about. Maybe you're the one who missed the point? Also, as hilarious as this is, THERE WAS an open qualifier tournament. It was called BSL, and Ty2, Jaeyun, and UltrA qualified. None of the players crying in this thread about some old boy club qualified... and yet you guys are advocating for a "open qual" tournament. I can't believe this is real, because it is so hilarious it is borderline sad.
Actually you responded to me as if I was advocating for different players to be included over those that were. You proceeded to then make a list followed up with "So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread." You are indeed missing the entire point. Enough of the invitationals already.
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On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community.
You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play".
All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick.
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Norway28585 Posts
On March 20 2018 08:44 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:33 SCC-Faust wrote:On March 20 2018 08:27 ReachTheSky wrote:
You seemed to miss the part where I never said other players should be included over some on the list. The ENTIRE THING should be open qual. Force players to continue to prove themself instead of this oldboys club, network circle jerk that constantly goes on. You may want to read posts carefully before responding to someone that does not share the same stance with you.
Dude, I read your post and I was pointing out the exact thing you're bitching about. Maybe you're the one who missed the point? Also, as hilarious as this is, THERE WAS an open qualifier tournament. It was called BSL, and Ty2, Jaeyun, and UltrA qualified. None of the players crying in this thread about some old boy club qualified... and yet you guys are advocating for a "open qual" tournament. I can't believe this is real, because it is so hilarious it is borderline sad. Actually you responded to me as if I was advocating for different players to be included over those that were. You proceeded to then make a list followed up with "So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread." You are indeed missing the entire point. Enough of the invitationals already.
faust's point is that the non-invitationals largely produces the same players as the invitationals do, at least for the US, because the players who are good enough to get invited but end up being overlooked all the time are also too busy to bother participating in qualifier tournaments.
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On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community.
I dont want to argue with that specific tournament, but last time there was a big tourney all the REAL top players had to go through endless qualifiers tourneys while casters(!) and untrained sc2 players were automatically qualified. This kind of thing leave a bitter taste that last forever. Nowadays top foreigners are competing on 10$ tourneys, that's why we're angry.
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On March 20 2018 08:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:44 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 08:33 SCC-Faust wrote:On March 20 2018 08:27 ReachTheSky wrote:
You seemed to miss the part where I never said other players should be included over some on the list. The ENTIRE THING should be open qual. Force players to continue to prove themself instead of this oldboys club, network circle jerk that constantly goes on. You may want to read posts carefully before responding to someone that does not share the same stance with you.
Dude, I read your post and I was pointing out the exact thing you're bitching about. Maybe you're the one who missed the point? Also, as hilarious as this is, THERE WAS an open qualifier tournament. It was called BSL, and Ty2, Jaeyun, and UltrA qualified. None of the players crying in this thread about some old boy club qualified... and yet you guys are advocating for a "open qual" tournament. I can't believe this is real, because it is so hilarious it is borderline sad. Actually you responded to me as if I was advocating for different players to be included over those that were. You proceeded to then make a list followed up with "So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread." You are indeed missing the entire point. Enough of the invitationals already. faust's point is that the non-invitationals largely produces the same players as the invitationals do, at least for the US, because the players who are good enough to get invited but end up being overlooked all the time are also too busy to bother participating in qualifier tournaments.
That's because TOs keep running invitationals. Take out invitationals entirely and players will make time to attend qual-only events since it would be the only type of tournament available. The problem you are speaking of fixes itself in the end if you just axe invitationals entirely.
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On March 20 2018 08:44 ReachTheSky wrote:
Actually you responded to me as if I was advocating for different players to be included over those that were. You proceeded to then make a list followed up with "So find me the players who deserved to be in this tournament, because they sure as fuck aren't in this thread." You are indeed missing the entire point. Enough of the invitationals already.
Actually I was pointing out that the players who are in this invitational deserve it as top players in response to your "same pool of guys getting free passes" thing. Hence why I proceeded to list their participation in tournaments (all which have had a 1st place finish with the exception of UltrA I believe). You then proceed to talk about "real" top players, as if you believe these guys truly are getting free passes and are somehow undeserving of being in this tournament. You even say "Players shouldn't be allowed to carry a torch without having to earn it time and time again.". I even cut the tournament participation between like a mid-way through 2017 and now as a measure of "current". That is why I typed that to you. I don't care about your opinion on invitationals, but you can't just say vague comments and then deflect away from them when I respond because your post was an obvious stab at the players who were selected.
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Norway28585 Posts
On March 20 2018 08:50 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play". All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick.
I'm part of the community. You can accurately state that part of the community doesn't like the whole pick and choose players for an event thing, but you can't claim to speak for the entire community. I like both types of events personally.
The fact is that invitational events are vastly outnumbered by non-invitational events.
Invitational events are = this, the holiday bash, a couple too many slots in the italian esports open and 3 out of 9 total participants in the zotac event (where half the prize pool and one tournament was restricted to the qualifying players).
Non-invitational events? CFC, shamtoo's have at you, TLopen, BSL, defiler tournaments. Adding these events up together would give you like 4 invite events (if we consider partially invite fully invite) and 50 non-invite events where registration was open and only skill level determined who won/could participate.
I don't have any problem with this ratio at all. A 1:10 ratio of invite to non-invite tourneys is not a problem. And I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that if you are having an invitational tournament and you want as much exposure and as many viewers as possible, then you choose the players with the biggest following. Now, there is a problem in that the non-invite tournaments don't get the same prize money involved as the invite tournaments do. I get that.
I think it's totally unfair that post SC:R Draco (to be clear - Draco is a really standup guy and I like and respect him a lot, so this isn't targeted towards him at all) has won $3250 and gotten two free trips, one to italy and one to the US, while a player like eon, who is a better player and who has played (and placed highly/won) in 20 times more tournaments, has won a fraction of that. But that's not the fault of the invite tournaments. That's a consequence of the invite tournaments being hosted by people who have spent time networking and creating followings that makes them get viewership numbers in the 5k range. I absolutely love watching zero's BSL casts personally - and the play displayed in BSL is on a somewhat higher level than the level displayed in the twitch event - but Zzzero's previous cast had something like 3% of the viewers that this twitch event did - despite the seemingly poor job they did advertising it. It's fine to think that this isn't fair. But attacking the twitch invitationals is totally counter-productive.
What we need to do is take notice of the fact that apparently, brood war events can still get 5k+ viewership numbers outside Korea. We need to tap into all these potential viewers, showcase that hey, there's actually a lot of even better quality brood war being played - on a weekly basis. I don't know what is the best way to go about re-introducing bw to a wider audience. But I am damn certain that it does not include attacking and alienating the gatekeepers who have access to those 5k+ viewers. That's stupid.
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On March 20 2018 09:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:50 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play". All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick. I'm part of the community. You can accurately state that part of the community doesn't like the whole pick and choose players for an event thing, but you can't claim to speak for the entire community. I like both types of events personally. The fact is that invitational events are vastly outnumbered by non-invitational events. Invitational events are = this, the holiday bash, a couple too many slots in the italian esports open and 3 out of 9 total participants in the zotac event (where half the prize pool and one tournament was restricted to the qualifying players). Non-invitational events? CFC, shamtoo's have at you, TLopen, BSL, defiler tournaments. Adding these events up together would give you like 4 invite events (if we consider partially invite fully invite) and 50 non-invite events where registration was open and only skill level determined who won/could participate. I don't have any problem with this ratio at all. A 1:10 ratio of invite to non-invite tourneys is not a problem. And I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that if you are having an invitational tournament and you want as much exposure and as many viewers as possible, then you choose the players with the biggest following. Now, there is a problem in that the non-invite tournaments don't get the same prize money involved as the invite tournaments do. I get that. I think it's totally unfair that post SC:R Draco (to be clear - Draco is a really standup guy and I like and respect him a lot, so this isn't targeted towards him at all) has won $3250 and gotten two free trips, one to italy and one to the US, while players like eon, who is a better player and who has played (and placed highly/won) in 20 times more tournaments, has won a fraction of that. But that's not the fault of the invite tournaments. That's a consequence of the invite tournaments being hosted by people who have spent time networking and creating followings that makes them get viewership numbers in the 5k range. I absolutely love watching zero's BSL casts personally - and the play displayed in BSL is on a somewhat higher level than the level displayed in the twitch event - but his previous cast had something like 3% of the viewers that this twitch event did - despite the seemingly poor job they did advertising it. It's fine to think that this isn't fair. But attacking the twitch invitationals is totally counter-productive. What we need to do is take notice of the fact that apparently, brood war events can still get 5k+ viewership numbers outside Korea. We need to tap into all these potential viewers, showcase that hey, there's actually a lot of even better quality brood war being played - on a weekly basis. I don't know what is the best way to go about re-introducing bw to a wider audience. But I am damn certain that it does not include attacking and alienating the gatekeepers who have access to those 5k+ viewers. That's stupid.
I never said I speak for the community. Those are your words and not mine, avoid trying to put them in my mouth.
No one is trying to attack or alienate the TOs. Everyone has been very clear and frank where they stand. Stop trying to turn it into an "us vs them" scenario.
I suppose the best thing I can do is not talk about invitationals and tell people to watch other events instead of invitationals in hopes of impacting the numbers enough that there is an economic shift towards real events instead of these silly in-house oldboy club competitions. Then maybe we will see money being funneled in the right places instead of the wrong places.
I'm glad you brought up the Draco thing. Draco is a great player, i'm not bashing him at all when I say this but he is a benefactor of the current system that is in place. If you really thought it was shitty that he made X amount with X free trips while Eon had to play 20+ tournaments on a regular basis who has been carrying the BW torch to earn only a fraction of what Draco did, you should be all about my idea.
The current system in place does nothing but favor already established players allowing them to milk it for every drop while simultaneously making it near impossible for new blood to break through in a large spot light. If new blood can't break through in major spotlight, how will they ever develope a following? This why the scene very rarely sees new blood unless they were already a friend of an established player. This current system is actually hurting the scene and STUNTING the growth of it. You want growth on a massive scale? You need to make sure there are opportunities for others to grow on a massive scale as well.
Axe the invitationals entirely, open qual only. Make your audience feel like they at least have the opportunity to be apart of something bigger than themselves(as long as they choose to put the effort in to compete).
Last edit - Invitationals are not community focused and should not be held in high regard at all since they are solely created to benefit a small group of people. If anyone reading this is considering watching an invitational, Go support an open qualifier tournament instead since they benefit everyone. #equalopportunity #community
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Norway28585 Posts
On March 20 2018 09:20 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 09:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:50 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 20 2018 08:36 ppp87 wrote:
Every single big money tourneys since SCR launch has been casters friends invites only... of course everybody is mad. the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments. Admins want to host a private event that is not open to the public/community? fine go ahead, keep it private and don't broadcast it. Otherwise all your are saying to the rest of the community is "look what you have no shot at playing in", "you can watch but you can't play". All players should always have to earn their spots through a direct qualifier to play. The whole philosophy of "oh he/she did well in a previous tournament that has zero interconnection to whatever event is being ran so were gonna include him/her" is just an excuse to cherry pick. I'm part of the community. You can accurately state that part of the community doesn't like the whole pick and choose players for an event thing, but you can't claim to speak for the entire community. I like both types of events personally. The fact is that invitational events are vastly outnumbered by non-invitational events. Invitational events are = this, the holiday bash, a couple too many slots in the italian esports open and 3 out of 9 total participants in the zotac event (where half the prize pool and one tournament was restricted to the qualifying players). Non-invitational events? CFC, shamtoo's have at you, TLopen, BSL, defiler tournaments. Adding these events up together would give you like 4 invite events (if we consider partially invite fully invite) and 50 non-invite events where registration was open and only skill level determined who won/could participate. I don't have any problem with this ratio at all. A 1:10 ratio of invite to non-invite tourneys is not a problem. And I think it makes absolutely perfect sense that if you are having an invitational tournament and you want as much exposure and as many viewers as possible, then you choose the players with the biggest following. Now, there is a problem in that the non-invite tournaments don't get the same prize money involved as the invite tournaments do. I get that. I think it's totally unfair that post SC:R Draco (to be clear - Draco is a really standup guy and I like and respect him a lot, so this isn't targeted towards him at all) has won $3250 and gotten two free trips, one to italy and one to the US, while players like eon, who is a better player and who has played (and placed highly/won) in 20 times more tournaments, has won a fraction of that. But that's not the fault of the invite tournaments. That's a consequence of the invite tournaments being hosted by people who have spent time networking and creating followings that makes them get viewership numbers in the 5k range. I absolutely love watching zero's BSL casts personally - and the play displayed in BSL is on a somewhat higher level than the level displayed in the twitch event - but his previous cast had something like 3% of the viewers that this twitch event did - despite the seemingly poor job they did advertising it. It's fine to think that this isn't fair. But attacking the twitch invitationals is totally counter-productive. What we need to do is take notice of the fact that apparently, brood war events can still get 5k+ viewership numbers outside Korea. We need to tap into all these potential viewers, showcase that hey, there's actually a lot of even better quality brood war being played - on a weekly basis. I don't know what is the best way to go about re-introducing bw to a wider audience. But I am damn certain that it does not include attacking and alienating the gatekeepers who have access to those 5k+ viewers. That's stupid. I never said I speak for the community. Those are your words and not mine, avoid trying to put them in my mouth. No one is trying to attack or alienate the TOs. Everyone has been very clear and frank where they stand. Stop trying to turn it into an "us vs them" scenario. I suppose the best thing I can do is not talk about invitationals and tell people to watch other events instead of invitationals in hopes of impacting the numbers enough that there is an economic shift towards real events instead of these silly in-house oldboy club competitions. Then maybe we will see money being funneled in the right places instead of the wrong places.
The post I responded to literally started with 'You are also missing the point where the community doesn't like the whole "pick and choose" players for an event thing. We want organic tournaments.' If that's not you trying to speak on behalf of the community then I must have misinterpreted at some point.
Anyway, I get the point that 'it'd be better if more money went to longer-lasting tournaments with open qualification processes'. I agree with that. But it's not like we're lacking organic tournaments. There's a plethora of opportunities for good, underrated players to showcase themselves as top or nearly top dogs. Someone like ty2 was invited to this tournament because he's consistently been doing that for several months - not because he's a long time old friend of the IN-crowd of brood war.
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On March 20 2018 05:27 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 05:08 ninazerg wrote:@everyone There's no "Best in NA" player right now. I feel like anyone can beat anyone. There are so many players in NA that are considered "good" or who consider themselves to be "good" that you could make a kilometer-long list of names. The problem with doing that is that certain players are active, and others are inactive. Who's active now? Sero, Ty2, Dragon, Michael, Nyoken, etc. I know a lot of people will go " Well, I'm active!!!" and that's fine and dandy and all, but where are these people when it comes to tournaments? So if Beast and SuGo think they're top players, they should join Schamtoo's Have At You or something. On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:
I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them
You're taking a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you, and making it about you and how you didn't appreciate how the Holiday Bash was criticized. Well, I'm sorry that people have opinions and that you don't like them. But popping up once every few months to go "Shame on all of you! This community has so much toxicity!" doesn't do anything for anybody. What more did you want us to do, exactly? The majority of the posters told Beast to stfu in the most polite way possible and his account got nuked. For you to make a blanket statement about the whole community is insulting to everyone who works hard to make the tournaments happen, to all the fans, and to everyone who is positive. Yeah man.. you nailed it. That is all I'm doing and I have no good intentions. K
TL.net BW forums has its fair share of purist and elitist sentiments and it have reared its head a few times too many in the past. Particularly unhelpful was some of the response towards certain former BW-figures returning after ASL and SC remastered. Having said that, some people felt hurt by how their game and community got wiped of from the face of the earth, just by almost every key figure and top players deciding to switch to sc2. Some of these people helped a new community to grow out of its ashes. I'm not condoning some of the behaviour that could be viewed as unhelpful, but i guess its important to understand it to some extent. And i'm not saying that it was wrong to switch to SC2 - it was completely understandable and reasonable to switch.
But i have seen what i would consider an improvement in these kinds of issues. I think there are less hardcore sentiments looking to flag integrity and holier than though spirit. Lets hope for further improvement am i right?
And to the people talking about in-group favouring. Sure there might be some element of friend-favours in some kinds of invitationals, and its okay to express ones qualms about that, but remember to show aswell some respect and appreciation for people who organize and put money into events. Be happy at least that we had 5000 viewers watching Starcraft! And keep in mind that giving favours to ones friends is a natural impulse, it can be easier said than done to fight it back. Lets strive to be civil and constructive when going about putting forth criticism. I'm sure that is possible, for you are all good people!
Incontrol, most people who love BW are glad that you and others have been back into creating some BW content. Back to share you experiences with the game, to play it, to compete and most importantly - have some fun. Tournaments such as the christmas bash was some of the most entertaining events i have watched in a long time. You guys really know how to create an event and i'm happy that some of these talents and resources are sometimes being spent on BW (again).
And I haven't forgotten that you have said yourselves that you would like to help organize future events, where more current top players could participate. Thats great if you could help make that happen. Dont be afraid to ask around for what kind of players could deserve an invitation (based of on skill and willingness to compete in general of course). We know our stuff around here
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Okay, since Beast is banned I thought i'd write what he's been saying.
He actually respects a lot (not all) of the players invited; in particular Jaeyun, with whom he practices with a lot. He wasn't mad that HE wasn't invited, just that the group of players selected wasn't 'NA's Finest'. Also, the different prize pools is bizarre but whatever.
Also, this Sugo BM thing isn't real. I'm not sure where he's started. Ask anyone who knows him. Sugo sounds like the nicest guy in IT support who's there to help and be your friend.
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Stop mentioning me. I appreciate the support; And the complete dismissal of me is ok, too (I won't lose any sleep either way). I don't care anymore. Carry on the conversation with the other points in the thread.
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On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL).
I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool.
It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own.
You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option.
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On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option.
Well said. It's a diverse long-standing community, it can't / won't be pigeon holed. Only a fraction comment. All things to consider.
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On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option.
He's always been that way. The sc2 community got sick n tired of it and eventually called him out for his bullying years back. He hasn't been much of a "figurehead of the community" in sc2 since then. Less and less casting gigs, teamless etc etc. I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when someone shits on the very community that makes them famous in the first place(karma).
User was temp banned for this post.
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Oh boy, that's a lot of drama again. I think it all derailed into people arguing over things they didn't even support to begin with, for the sake of arguing. At the start people were simply upset how none of the big SC:R events gave opportunities to the current top foreigners, which many believe are in EU region mostly. The only exception was the Italian Open but even then FBH's invitation kinda spoilt it.
On the other hand, almost all of the events in question were supported by Blizzard//Twitch which are inherently US based entities. Obviously it's way easier to invite local players with rare exceptions such as Draco, who happens to be an old-timer. Btw, favoritism towards Draco is questionable since he backs his status up with skill and is a legit top player rn. So in the end, while it is understandable why people would want Eon, Dewalt, Trutacz or Notforu over some NA players, it is also clear that arranging such a tournament is a great hassle. Perhaps too great for anyone to bother. Like, last time Dewalt had a visa issue and couldn't attend the tournament for example. The alternative would be to make it online, but then there are major lag issues, which SC:R didn't help to resolve, actually quite the opposite.
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On March 20 2018 04:27 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 01:58 Immaterial wrote:
I think there are valid claims being made on both sides of this discussion. It is likely that iNcontrol is aware of some things that have happened/are happening behind the scenes that most of us here are not privy to. No doubt we should take his comments into consideration, and be more proactive about showing love to those who are willing to invest in this scene. It is important that we prevent the vocal minority of trolls and dickheads from dominating the discussion. iNc has been a pillar of the community for many years (imo) and we should not so quickly dismiss what he's saying here.
Conversely, I also think it is fair to criticize the way that players are selected for events like this. I would suggest that we can both show our support for things like this while also voicing legitimate concerns about how invitationals are run. The best players should be rewarded with opportunities and exposure.
I don't know though, maybe this is a dumb comment... In any case, I love this game and it makes me really happy to see that people are still willing to invest their time, energy and even money into this scene. We should do whatever we can to ensure that that never changes. Thank you. Completely fair and reasonable. Criticizing is fine. The level people take it and how it is in EVERY BW THREAD that has any money/invites at all is insane. I love this idea though that for some reason people think I gain anything by saying what I do? Like, I don't even post on TL but when I do it's to say something along the lines of "you guys are doing something bad" and people are like "YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO CAUSE HARM!" what? I can convincingly tell you I am having the hardest time getting Blizzard motivated to do anything for SC:R and a huge part of that is the community is toxic and negative about everything. You want to think I am making that up? Why? What do I get out of making that up? What precedent is there for that? Have I been known to make shit up and talk about it publicly? Dunno man.You can either be a guy who wants to shout me down and assume I don't know what I am talking about or.. you could take a 20 year veteran of the scene's words into account. It's a shame but it's no hair off my back. Going to continue to do what I do with or without people like ggzerg etc.
A few ways you can look at this. Sure, Inc has a reputation for trolling, but I feel pretty confident he isn't taking time out of his day to troll the BW community for shits and giggles. So what is going on?
First is that in certain aspects their is validity to what Incontrol is saying. There have been some bad threads. In particular the one about content creators like Day9 coming back to BW for $$ was fucking ridiculous. There is, without a doubt, a degree of elitism and purism around. I don't exactly remember what was specifically said for Holiday Bash.
At the same time, there is a ton of truth to what other posters like Nina, Art of Turtle, Golgatha, etc. are saying. Let's be honest, you don't spend near the time hanging out with all manner of BW players over discords, other relevant communities (defiler, korhal, etc), and in general on TL. We get to interact with a far greater number of players on a daily, weekly, and monthy basis in a far more personal way than you do as a content creator that isn't a dedicated BW hobbiest.
Most of the people you are getting responses from are those that interact with these people and a much larger community than just TL forum posters, and have a different perspective about what the "BW community looks and feels like". They also see the "BW community" as a different subset of people than you do. Hence the responses with undertones of, or just blatant, agitation at your criticism. When 90% of the people you know, game, and interact with on a regular basis are incredible people and a person such as yourself comes in and states "your community is toxic and the people are annoying" without some very specific qualifiers it's not hard to see why you're getting the pushback to your comments you are.
I also want to point out those pushing back against you are absolutely correct in their own context. I think what you're defining as BW community is more or less analagous to "TL forum posters in BW section". There ARE issues there. But, at the same time, the overall community as a whole is not just TL forum posters, and it's an incredibly positive, welcoming community of some damn fine individuals.
A better way of stating your post would be to suggest that the TL BW forums have a serious problem with a vocal minority of staunch BW elitists, or whatever word properly describes this segment. In that regard, you are absolutely correct. It truly IS a problem. At the same time, the dissenting voices against you here are also correct in their own way, in that the larger community is pretty fucking incredible, and it is a small, aggressive minority that causes problems. They are loud though, and if you just read some of the BW threads, it's not all that hard to think "holy shit, this community is a bit nuts, think I may back away from it slowly..."
MTA: It would truly be enlightening to hear Schamtoo's thoughts here. He is part of the community to a much greater degree than many organizers. I would be curious to his thoughts on whether he senses that most people are good, happy, and appreciative; with a minor, but very outspoken toxic TL posting crowd...or if he thinks the problem is larger scale and more deep rooted.
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On March 20 2018 08:52 ppp87 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 08:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the american zotac had 4 qualifier tournaments for north american players and two south american ones. Out of the 8 players in this tournament, 5 of them were taken from the 6 players who managed to qualify (and show up) during that process. The others (Ty2, Jaeyun and Sero) are players who all frequently participate in tournaments (ty2 and jaeyun both qualified for BSL-pro), who stream, and who are otherwise active and visible members of the community. I dont want to argue with that specific tournament, but last time there was a big tourney all the REAL top players had to go through endless qualifiers tourneys while casters(!) and untrained sc2 players were automatically qualified. This kind of thing leave a bitter taste that last forever. Nowadays top foreigners are competing on 10$ tourneys, that's why we're angry.
Truthfully, I can't understand being angry about it. People are putting their money up for these events for one of two reasons:
1) They want to watch a tournament with the invited players
2) They believe the invited players will draw the most viewers and want their event to be a commercial success.
In case one, if people have money and want to watch certain players play, pretty damn reasonable. It would be like complaining if some rich korean was always sponsoring Reach v Nada, and not Flash, Larva, or Rain. Whatever, his money he can pay who he wants.
In case two, well...still comes back to the money. You have to use your money and resources efficiently. If whoever is promoting the event believes that "IN" foreigners are going to draw more viewers, ad money, and donations than Bonyth, Dewalt, etc. that's their prerogative and decision.
When you understand it that way, being bitter is basically being angry that popular players are popular. There is absolutely no way you could fault the content creator or organizer. Are you really going to be bitter than some organizer would rather watch Sero than TT1, or Kawaii than Dewalt?
Or I suppose it's possible that your angry that capitalism works the way it does, and people follow the $$$. Doesn't seem being worth being bitter about.
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Based on what I scanned over, I can conclude: people who are the ones generally invited to tournaments/showmatches are more "dependable" in the sense that they are the same people who tend to show up every time. I know that personally, even if I were invited, I'd be flattered but can't be relied on to show, as of late.
To people getting upset over nothing, my advice is to apply thy selves to tournaments to actually show yourselves to the community that you are ready to throw down with anyone.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 20 2018 12:36 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option. He's always been that way. The sc2 community got sick n tired of it and eventually called him out for his bullying years back. He hasn't been much of a "figurehead of the community" in sc2 since then. Less and less casting gigs, teamless etc etc. I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when someone shits on the very community that makes them famous in the first place(karma).
That’s right guys .. I barely get gigs anymore because people hate me. I’ve actually been asked to do virtually every event except like 2-3 in Asia each year. EG closed its rts division and i stream for a living to a community that seems to think I’m ok. But yeah.. I’m a bully and hated or something. Ok loL.
Bunch of people really upset i described the bw community as toxic.. ok. Dunno what to tell you. My experience is exactly that. When I stream it, post on reddit, here or the events we do.. it’s been a bad experience with the community at large. You can continue to just assume I’m trolling or being mean or whatever.. I guess? I said it earlier but I will say it again.. unlike 99% of you I’m actually speaking with and working with blizz and others to try and get events / content. I’m literally getting feedback that this community makes doing those things undesirable. So every time I say “this sucks because I want to do content but you guys make it hard” and you all find new ways to attack me or pick apart my posts and try and make it about how wrong I am i can’t help but laugh. Well, fuck it. I’m done trying. Going to talk with Artosis and keep our BW segments on our talk show at a minimum too. I don’t need this in my life. Love BW and some of y’all are awesome but this shit is in everything we fucking try and do for this community. Tired of people like reachfortheballs and others going fucking ham on me every god damn time I talk.
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On March 21 2018 01:26 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 12:36 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 20 2018 12:16 Golgotha wrote:On March 20 2018 00:32 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 16:18 Golgotha wrote:On March 19 2018 12:20 iNcontroL wrote:On March 19 2018 12:08 art_of_turtle wrote:On March 19 2018 11:45 iNcontroL wrote:
Every thread where something with money is announced for bw goes like this. A lot of you are truly horribly annoying people. It’s sad though because it actually impacts the opportunities for this scene. Thanks for the pep talk champ, and the generalization of "A lot of you" being conisdered as "truly horribly annoying people." I'm sure your words weigh much on those who enjoyed today's cast. If I may also point out that only 42 different users posted. And that most of the negative posts are from the guy with 8 posts, the guy who got banned, and the SC2 "high standing members" telling us that as a whole community based upon this thread is the very reason we don't have opportunities on this scene. The honest thing is I just love brood war for the game it is, and doubtless of the money pumped into this scene will never change my opinion of it. What will really hurt us is if a high standing member in a larger community came down on the community that first started their community. Nevermind that we do have trolls who create accounts for the self serving purpose of riling up a small community of very devoted players to their game. If you think it’s just a few people in this one thread dunno what to tell you man. Be as defensive as you want.. it’s been a shit show for awhile. Lots of content creators have been driven out and I’m tired of it. But turtle is right. It's always just a few trolls or people who are not regulars. Most folks on here are reasonable and love the game and want it to do well. However, I've seen a pattern where trolls flock whenever there is a slimmer of controversy or bad news. But these people either have extremely low post counts and/or do not regularly frequent the bw forums. They just come in to take their jab and are never seen again. Take this thread for example. Look at the idiot who got banned and the bstulls kid. They are nobodies with new accounts. It's unfair to say that these people are indicative of the general bw community. They are a minority. It's just that since the community is very small, the minority can rear its ugly head more than not. The event was fun and we let the casters know. Turtle was there too, helping people out. So were a bunch of the regulars. No, man. Like, I am not going to sit here and post numbers or something if you need that? I'm telling you.. as someone who has been involved in a lot of the recent BW events that had money around them AND as someone who was streaming BW nearly every day when SC:R came out up until a couple months ago I can tell you this is not an issue you get to brush off to a "few low post trolls." But like I said.. you can be defensive and deny it or you can get proactive. Report troll posts. Get them banned. Encourage positivity. Sitting here and being like "nah man, the BW community is really positive and supportive" while literally posting in a thread that Schamtoo once again had a hand in and is literally a content producer that stopped working in this space because of all the negativity... is hilarious. Anyways, I already know the replies to my post. "No! It's not that bad." Or some personal attack against me etc etc. If what I say wrankles you just get off your ass and recognize it and start asking that the bad apples get dealt with. Whether you like it or not or want to try and say "it's just as bad in SC2" the fact of the matter is it isn't. You guys have a reputation for being impossible to please and really incessant about your hipster desires and how everyone betrayed you and is making a "cash grab" to get back into the scene (LOL). I'm not sure you understand the foot-in-mouth approach you insist on taking. Can't you see that people actually want to listen to you and help you? It may be hard for you to believe, but none of us want a toxic community. So we are on your side. The problem is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by disparaging people who simply disagree, taking things too personally, and using a wide brush to paint this community. So what happens is a kind of self fulfilling prophecy where you see every comment as an insult and opposition against you. Then of course you will always think this place is a cesspool. It's sad because all the posters who tried to point this out to you are active, long-standing members who consistently show positivity and help newcomers to the game. It's foolishness akin to eating your own. You hold a lot of weight in this community and can do so much, why make it hard on yourself by rolling around in the mud? For your sake, I sincerely advise you take a different approach in your dealings with people. It will save you from a lot of built up consternation and angst. A more open minded approach can do wonders for you, it will be like night and day. I hope you consider this option. He's always been that way. The sc2 community got sick n tired of it and eventually called him out for his bullying years back. He hasn't been much of a "figurehead of the community" in sc2 since then. Less and less casting gigs, teamless etc etc. I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when someone shits on the very community that makes them famous in the first place(karma). That’s right guys .. I barely get gigs anymore because people hate me. I’ve actually been asked to do virtually every event except like 2-3 in Asia each year. EG closed its rts division and i stream for a living to a community that seems to think I’m ok. But yeah.. I’m a bully and hated or something. Ok loL. Bunch of people really upset i described the bw community as toxic.. ok. Dunno what to tell you. My experience is exactly that. When I stream it, post on reddit, here or the events we do.. it’s been a bad experience with the community at large. You can continue to just assume I’m trolling or being mean or whatever.. I guess? I said it earlier but I will say it again.. unlike 99% of you I’m actually speaking with and working with blizz and others to try and get events / content. I’m literally getting feedback that this community makes doing those things undesirable. So every time I say “this sucks because I want to do content but you guys make it hard” and you all find new ways to attack me or pick apart my posts and try and make it about how wrong I am i can’t help but laugh. Well, fuck it. I’m done trying. Going to talk with Artosis and keep our BW segments on our talk show at a minimum too. I don’t need this in my life. Love BW and some of y’all are awesome but this shit is in everything we fucking try and do for this community. Tired of people like reachfortheballs and others going fucking ham on me every god damn time I talk.
Stop trying to turn yourself into a victim. I've actually praised you in the past for things as well. grow up. If you want to be a public figure but can't mentally handle when people disagree with you or when people have feedback that isn't ideal for you without being able to still treat them with respect, maybe you should consider a different line of work.
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United States33170 Posts
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EPT
