EPT[WoW] Battle for Azeroth - Page 500
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BfA Community Links: GP : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/KKMpKPSlgd?region=EU&faction=Horde TLEUH : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/v9x5bAF3jD?region=EU&faction=Horde TLEUA : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/ALwgJnC5Wo?region=EU&faction=Alliance TLNAH : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/vPrmjJxiVnJ?region=US&faction=Horde TLNAA : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/YeZj7P0SXLn?region=US&faction=Alliance Bnet: Bnet - https://blizzard.com/invite/amvLM0EubJv On November 03 2016 06:57 GTR wrote: I've created a Google Form/Spreadsheet for people to help add eachother. Hopefully this will makes things easier for us to find people for Mythic+ runs and what not as opposed to sifting through 150+ pages of discussion. Form Spreadsheet If a moderator could add this as a moderator note at the top it'd be appreciated. | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On November 01 2018 07:03 Alventenie wrote: Best ptr change is disc atonement lol. I have no idea what direction they are taking with that unless its just a messed up data mine (which it could be). It has to be messed up. The whole spec would be trivial if you had atonement for that long. Plus there are so many additional changes (like a tier 100 talent) that would also have to be changed if the datamine was legitimate, so with no other shown changes it can't be correct. Also it's not like disc needs a buff, the spec is super strong right now. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20304 Posts
On November 01 2018 04:07 Spicy_Curry wrote: havoc probably has too much utility imprison purge aoe stun leech + blur taunt high damage in basically all situations darkness ranged interrupt Imprison has a huge cooldown now so it's not nearly as useful as the Legion version. No skipping 4 packs in a row like shroud / invis pot, no reapplying it when some idiot breaks it. It's still limited in mob type, can't be placed on a lot of common ones like Undead or Abberation which other people commonly CC and there are more of those around than you might think. Purge is single target with a 10s cooldown while some other classes have 0s or mass dispel. Most popular race has a mass dispel racial. Stun is 3s on a 60s (40s talented) cooldown, on Legion it was 5s and could be cast 2-5x as often in standard m+ Talented leech is useful sometimes (nerfed in BFA), Blur is just a standard defensive. Pretty much everybody has a button and some other spec mechanic or talent that gives them some defensive value. Every class that has a tank spec can taunt. The DPS is tuned highly at the moment but it is stuck mostly in sustained damage (basically no DPS cd's) otherwise it would have been nerfed more. They could eat a 3% damage nerf and be completely fine but if that came it'd be at the same time as a similar nerf to several other high end classes because there is not a reason to single out Havoc as having the best damage application. I think that you could make a strong argument that Havoc damage is unfairly better than some other specs, you could just make that argument for a bunch of specs and it's an argument for reducing the gap between the highest and lowest damage specs (which is also important to me) more than it is one for nerfing havoc in particular. Darkness is pretty good but it's been in buggy state since day 1 so it doesn't get as much effectiveness as it would in 5 mans. It's very useful when paired with spirit link and large group sizes in particular. Interrupt is 10 yards now. It's not a ranged class interrupt which can often be used at 20-40+ yards and i miss interrupts, mess up my damage or hurt/kill myself all of the time because of that nerf. Most of it is useful and adds up to a strong utility package, i just don't think it's that far out of line. Many of the lower end specs don't have this kind of usefulness but Havoc is not alone in having it. WoW balance often abandons some specs but rarely abandons an entire class, it's far more impactful for Havoc to be subpar than it is for MM to be sub-par (in the first case the entire DPS class dies, in the second they just respec to BM). I don't agree with that personally - if i wasn't going to design a spec well and balance it then i wouldn't put it in my game - but that's how it is with Blizzard. --------------- You missed the most important one by far, +5% magic damage done. The +5% magic damage is the reason why one Havoc is brought to so many raids where other melee classes are entirely kicked out in a ranged-dominated world*. If it weren't for that gain they'd have less useful utility than Legion and terrible raid representation in the latter half of mythic despite everything on the list. *There are: 1.08x more melee than ranged on M Zul logs (2/3'rds of the melee being Sub Rogues) 2.69x more ranged than non-sub-rogue melee on M Zul logs. 2.14x more ranged than melee on M Mythrax logs. 2.15x more ranged than melee on M G'huun logs. Given the fact that well over half of kills on sub rogues are on Zul mythic (they don't show up on the first 5 bosses or the bosses afterwards) you can see that the vast majority of the rogues are alts of other DPS mains, mainly ranged DPS mains, being brought in to abuse spec mechanics that are broken for that one particular boss such that a newb alt is better than a well practiced and geared main. There are 13 melee specs, 11 ranged. 9 classes are capable of melee DPS, 6 of ranged. With equal balance and representation from other factors you would see a swing in the opposite direction, towards most raid slots being populated by melee. There are plenty of them around as evidenced them being similarly or even more popular than ranged on easier bosses like heroic G'huun or the start of Mythic; they're just not wanted in mid to upper level mythic guilds because they're objectively way worse than the ranged specs at doing these bosses and it's easier to replace them with better ranged specs than it is to kill the bosses with a bad group comp. --------------- I'd bet the reason that those kinds of changes were done wasn't mainly for balance between classes. More than likely it's adjusting the % of damage some AOE spells (and Karma  ) deal relative to your other abilities because they're out of line, to adjust ST vs AOE across the board and/or because there are other changes like the havoc mastery rework incoming next build.Long post 'cause i can't sleep atm :D | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
This is sort of how it's always been for melee though, you bring the ones that either do stupid DPS (like Arms for G'huun) or have stupid utility (like Rogues), and Ferals/Ret/Shaman/etc. eat shit | ||
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
The main problem is that they just lose outright on damage to rogue/dh. Like nothing against the ret pally I play with, but when he only averages 14-15k dps in a dungeon, but a DH/rogue can do 17k that can make the difference in some fights. For lower keys its whatever, but its a pretty big difference for some of the tougher keys for sure. I still don't think rogue/dh are 100% locks either though. Some of the crazier pulls you do are with unholy DKs because their burst aoe is just dumb (lol 150k+ dps, good bye trash mobs). Right now rogues/dhs are safe melee picks, but not the only pick. I do feel for some of the really bad melee classes right now (feral/enhance/survival). This might be a thing of just no one wanting to play them due to how bad they feel to play, so I might just have a small sample size in playing with them. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20304 Posts
Ret and Enhance should perform more like Havoc rather than Havoc being nerfed to their level. ----- I do feel for some of the really bad melee classes right now (feral/enhance/survival). These three are all not so hot specs but two of those classes have alternative ranged specs which do better than most melee's. That's part of something else that i was thinking earlier.. Survival has been around for a while now and it's been numerically decent at times but it's absolutely destroyed on representation because of this melee vs ranged split. There's a ton of incentive to swap from a melee to a ranged spec and very little to swap from ranged to melee. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
any mechanic that forces movement is going to either hurt your DPS for ranged or require you to plan around it unless you're BM Hunter, although this effects some specs more than others | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20304 Posts
sad | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4547 Posts
On November 01 2018 16:37 TomatoBisque wrote: melee is much easier to play at an acceptable level than most ranged specs because they can do full DPS while moving any mechanic that forces movement is going to either hurt your DPS for ranged or require you to plan around it unless you're BM Hunter, although this effects some specs more than others DPS-wise maybe. In terms of dodging mechanics it's usually melee that have it harder than ranged. I'm aware there are exceptions such as Mythic Aggramar. This tier melee has it rough though. Zekvoz, mythrax, Ghuun, M fetid, ... | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 01 2018 16:37 TomatoBisque wrote: melee is much easier to play at an acceptable level than most ranged specs because they can do full DPS while moving any mechanic that forces movement is going to either hurt your DPS for ranged or require you to plan around it unless you're BM Hunter, although this effects some specs more than others Im not sure i agree with that, maybe in some situations but alot of the time as a ranged class especially this tier, you are essentially immune to over 70 percent of the dungeon trash mechanics that melee dps have to respect on higher keys. Melee being able to dps while moving is not a bonus, its a requirement. And there can be some pretty bad melee around too that just dont respect mechanics or just dont know how. But I dont really play at that level much so its not something I run into, but have seen. That some melee classes do more dps and seem to be easier to play at an acceptable level has more to do with specific classes and how they are tuned rather than melee being generally easier to play both in terms of output and mechanics. Personally aswell I feel alot more comfortable in my ability to maintain output even in movement heavyish situations playing ranged classes even though I primarily play melee now. But yes playing a range class where the mechanics require you to move or dodge does require more foresight/planning and experience. I would agree that melee is easier to play at an acceptable level in haphazard or chaotic situations. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I wonder if they really think Windwalker is still a strong AoE burst spec with 5 stacks SCK 10% each / FoF doing half damage to secondaries. We do less burst aoe than Rogues these days. It's funny they include us in this topic. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
There is also several different types of pulls in M+ -- low health mobs (raptors atal with high damage) and high health mobs that are less dangerous. Frost mages excel in both cases but their weakness is boss damage so on tyrannical weeks they are less valuable. Rogue aoe damage is pretty bad unless you are outlaw but nobody plays that spec. Ass rogues need to restealth between pulls and small mobs are dead before they can get all their shit up. If you have a sub rogue you need to tailor the dungeon just for him (having 5-6 mobs with every pull and watching aoe damage -- its a pain in the ass.) The only melee that can touch demon hunters are probably arms warrior but they are actually dead weight in dungeons because they bring absolutely nothing. Boomkins are pretty average but brez/ entangle/ soothe/ treants are really nice. Trying to argue that demon hunters are fine simply because melee aren't brought to mythic raids is not a compelling argument because historically melee have always been punished by lack of downtime and spread mechanics which are plentiful in raids. There is simply no reason to bring melee unless blizzard decides to make raids like Nighthold where you don't get punished for bringing too many or the amount of movement cripples casters.. A raid leader never worries about having enough melee, they are always looking to drop healers and melee. Basically it boils down to this What are you going to bring to your 5 man comp? Blood dk monk or disc healer -- druid if you have no brez or have a monk tank for some reason 2 melee ? dh rogue 2 ranged? boomy mage or hunter + rogue of note you can get healthstones from your class hall and warlocks have a terrible damage profile It's pretty shitty the way it all breaks down because ideally classes would be homogenized a bit more but that is not fun and I don't think the game should head in that direction. Lastly there are a few classes that should see a bit more play namely unholy dk and hunter maybe we will see some of those guys in the MDI. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
then it has people write guides for professions, classes and many other things that's all good, except i guess for how their guides are full of TBC stuff despite being recently written for classic wow lol | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
I ran two 12s with the same grp. One was short because we had a healer bugging out and disconnecting crossing the islands on SOB.. but for some reason the 12 FH we timed got skipped by IO probably because it didnt get published. Ignoring the fact that is fucking stupid that it ranks your highesst key regardless of timer in the first place. If its the same level key why is SOB untimed rating higher in Blizzards leaderboard than a time FH for the same key level? | ||
TheEmulator
28090 Posts
Any tips for trialing other than play well and keep my mouth shut? | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
On November 01 2018 21:06 Laurens wrote: DPS-wise maybe. In terms of dodging mechanics it's usually melee that have it harder than ranged. I'm aware there are exceptions such as Mythic Aggramar. This tier melee has it rough though. Zekvoz, mythrax, Ghuun, M fetid, ... most likely a personal thing - i play both - i think range is a snoozefest compared to melee thou - does not even matter which content in pve - m+ range easy mode compared to melee and in raid u have 50/50 of melee being shit (cleared mythic and got experience on every boss as both) but as i said before - its personal what one finds easy and what not. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
On November 01 2018 21:06 Laurens wrote: DPS-wise maybe. In terms of dodging mechanics it's usually melee that have it harder than ranged. I'm aware there are exceptions such as Mythic Aggramar. This tier melee has it rough though. Zekvoz, mythrax, Ghuun, M fetid, ... I've historically played melee and always felt ranged was harder except for some especially melee unfriendly encounters, but I might be biased towards thinking of fights where ranged have to move a fuckton (like fucking Tyrannical Yazma) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20304 Posts
Trying to argue that demon hunters are fine simply because melee aren't brought to mythic raids is not a compelling argument because historically melee have always been punished by lack of downtime and spread mechanics which are plentiful in raids. There is simply no reason to bring melee unless blizzard decides to make raids like Nighthold where you don't get punished for bringing too many or the amount of movement cripples casters.. A raid leader never worries about having enough melee, they are always looking to drop healers and melee. Ranged can't be better in every situation, most specs would be screwed then. We've had a history of double or even triple ranged DPS m+ comps with simultaneous raid dominance when there were globally strong ranged DPS specs. I don't disagree on it being highly tuned for a melee, just saying: A: A handful of other specs are similarly useful so a patch removing some form of utility and nerfing damage of havoc alone would be out of place B: Many melee are shit to the point where they wouldn't be picked even if havoc was deleted and that's not entirely havoc's fault. It's important to make these specs mathematically relevant and maybe add a bit of utility where they fall short. C: The raid situation looks like a much bigger problem to me at the moment than balance between any two specs because it fucks all melee and can't be undone with a quick patch yet people rarely talk about that, why? It's a hot issue for me practically every tier. I do disagree on the part where you say that it's not a compelling argument because melee are expected to be shit in raids. They don't have to be shit, it's an active choice that blizzard is making during boss design to make it that way. It's not particularly applicable to m+ balance in particular but it does play a huge role in overall class balance since mythic raids are by far the hardest rewarding content - being stuck at 5/8M is far more impactful than being stuck at M+15 or even M+10 in the current game. I'd say that Melee is undertuned in general. More than a few of them are pretty dead specs. Havoc is an exception to that because of the +5% magic damage raid buff keeping 1 havoc in a lot of 20-man raid comps and because of being a top m+ performer. Still, i have havoc friends who are good yet get benched every week for peoples ranged DPS and rogue alts which is disgusting IMO. Many specs don't even make it to that point because they're tuned and designed out of relevance. I think that there should be more Havoc's (possibly with a little tuning down on burst aoe & m+ utility) rather than more Survival's and that melee in general need to break into the overwhelmingly ranged dominated raiding scene via raid redesigns and tuning to account for it so that the game as a whole can be healthy. --- If its the same level key why is SOB untimed rating higher in Blizzards leaderboard than a time FH for the same key level? SOB and FH have entirely seperate leaderboards. FH usually requires a higher key to get on, though. Likely the game just bugged and didn't report your key properly, it happens. | ||
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