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On September 14 2015 05:15 Ovid wrote:
Just as a general overview, this poll is of poor quality. You need to include manual macro mechanics but toned down, you also need to realize that people are not taking into account the impact of the 12 worker change, the game has been largely accelerated by that for very little time gain and toning down the macro mechanics repairs that effect. My ideal would be to pretty much get a bit closer back to Hots, toned down macro mechanics and 6 workers again.
Poll's fine as it is, toned down macro mechanics still comes under either manual or semi-automated. At the moment its probably more important to see if people want macro mechanics or not before deciding whether they should stay the same strength or be toned down.
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On September 14 2015 05:15 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 04:53 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 03:35 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 01:36 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 14 2015 01:22 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 13 2015 23:52 Ovid wrote:On September 13 2015 23:40 Little-Chimp wrote:
Not only is no macro boosters more fun, but also helps balance the metagame away from mass cheap unit type stuff and slows the game down slightly to a favorable pace where worker deaths matter more.
Bye bye giant zergling balls winning or losing 90% of zvz, or Terran being played like zerg. And yes, Terran had an extremely difficult time at first with no mules, but this can be fixed with some balance changes. In fact, balance of the game in general would be easier with removal of such massively variable mechanics.
At this point the only "issue" is that zerg would be a little easier than the other two, which is either a non issue or an easily solvable one by just giving zerg something else to do that isnt inject.
Guessing you've never played at beyond gold league if you think "zergling balls" = 90% of ZvZ calm down junior, it was obviously an exaggeration to make a point. Like it or not, the mass amounts of early game larva contribute to a lot of cheese/information based wins early game ZvZ. maybe next time respond to more of the general message of what I'm saying instead of letting one sentence crawl up your ass. He has a history of being a d*ck. Agreed, as a T, that Terran sucked when they removed the macro boosters - but they could have addressed that in the next patch. Just remove the macro boosters and balance please. If pointing out how ridiculous someones statement is by referencing their probable league is being a dick then sure, stating that 90% of ZvZ is zergling balls is just wrong on many levels. On September 14 2015 02:06 WrathSCII wrote:On September 14 2015 02:02 woopr wrote:
anyone who votes semi-auto macro should be banned Or votes for full auto! Fixed that for you. On September 14 2015 02:22 ffadicted wrote:
Finally a fair poll lol Umm no? Where's the option of manual macro mechanics but toned down? calm down, this thread isn't about ZvZ specifically nor is about you spouting off retarded statements based on an exaggerated sentence you disagreed with. Go ahead and tell me that the mass amounts macro boosted larva don't contribute to a ton of ZvZs ending 5 minutes in due to early ling bane attacks. Try to form an argument this time instead of (incorrectly) guessing my league and embarrassing yourself. I'm completely calm, it's quite funny that you'd think I'm not you are valuing your retorts too highly. They're all stoppable with good control, the only way it's not stoppable is if it's not scouted which is only going to happen on a 4 player map but that's due to the 12 worker change not the macro mechanics. How have I embarrassed myself what a stupid statement to make. If you want to disprove my point you'd be saying your league, so since you've not specified I'm going to say you're not gold but platinum. I'm not prepared to right out a long post addressing you as I feel it will be pointless, you have your opinion on the macro mechanics and I have mine and I think both out mindsets aren't going to budge. Just as a general overview, this poll is of poor quality. You need to include manual macro mechanics but toned down, you also need to realize that people are not taking into account the impact of the 12 worker change, the game has been largely accelerated by that for very little time gain and toning down the macro mechanics repairs that effect. My ideal would be to pretty much get a bit closer back to Hots, toned down macro mechanics and 6 workers again.
Please show me where I wrote that mass ling early game was "unstoppable" lol. I clearly meant that it was very common. And it is, because bad players can beat better players sometimes by hiding lings out of plain site and snowballing whatever advantage they get with mass larva.
Still got the wrong league btw, not that it matters as it's just a way for you to write a lazy "my league>your league" argument instead of proper discussion
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The current patch is fully automated.
Now you see the tremendous difference in poll numbers when you include no macro mechanics. Almost no one supports automation in this poll.
I did like the no macro mechanics. I'd like Blizzard to explain why they changed it or whether they gave up on it in a community update.
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On September 14 2015 05:28 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 05:15 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 04:53 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 03:35 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 01:36 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 14 2015 01:22 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 13 2015 23:52 Ovid wrote:On September 13 2015 23:40 Little-Chimp wrote:
Not only is no macro boosters more fun, but also helps balance the metagame away from mass cheap unit type stuff and slows the game down slightly to a favorable pace where worker deaths matter more.
Bye bye giant zergling balls winning or losing 90% of zvz, or Terran being played like zerg. And yes, Terran had an extremely difficult time at first with no mules, but this can be fixed with some balance changes. In fact, balance of the game in general would be easier with removal of such massively variable mechanics.
At this point the only "issue" is that zerg would be a little easier than the other two, which is either a non issue or an easily solvable one by just giving zerg something else to do that isnt inject.
Guessing you've never played at beyond gold league if you think "zergling balls" = 90% of ZvZ calm down junior, it was obviously an exaggeration to make a point. Like it or not, the mass amounts of early game larva contribute to a lot of cheese/information based wins early game ZvZ. maybe next time respond to more of the general message of what I'm saying instead of letting one sentence crawl up your ass. He has a history of being a d*ck. Agreed, as a T, that Terran sucked when they removed the macro boosters - but they could have addressed that in the next patch. Just remove the macro boosters and balance please. If pointing out how ridiculous someones statement is by referencing their probable league is being a dick then sure, stating that 90% of ZvZ is zergling balls is just wrong on many levels. On September 14 2015 02:06 WrathSCII wrote:On September 14 2015 02:02 woopr wrote:
anyone who votes semi-auto macro should be banned Or votes for full auto! Fixed that for you. On September 14 2015 02:22 ffadicted wrote:
Finally a fair poll lol Umm no? Where's the option of manual macro mechanics but toned down? calm down, this thread isn't about ZvZ specifically nor is about you spouting off retarded statements based on an exaggerated sentence you disagreed with. Go ahead and tell me that the mass amounts macro boosted larva don't contribute to a ton of ZvZs ending 5 minutes in due to early ling bane attacks. Try to form an argument this time instead of (incorrectly) guessing my league and embarrassing yourself. I'm completely calm, it's quite funny that you'd think I'm not you are valuing your retorts too highly. They're all stoppable with good control, the only way it's not stoppable is if it's not scouted which is only going to happen on a 4 player map but that's due to the 12 worker change not the macro mechanics. How have I embarrassed myself what a stupid statement to make. If you want to disprove my point you'd be saying your league, so since you've not specified I'm going to say you're not gold but platinum. I'm not prepared to right out a long post addressing you as I feel it will be pointless, you have your opinion on the macro mechanics and I have mine and I think both out mindsets aren't going to budge. Just as a general overview, this poll is of poor quality. You need to include manual macro mechanics but toned down, you also need to realize that people are not taking into account the impact of the 12 worker change, the game has been largely accelerated by that for very little time gain and toning down the macro mechanics repairs that effect. My ideal would be to pretty much get a bit closer back to Hots, toned down macro mechanics and 6 workers again. Please show me where I wrote that mass ling early game was "unstoppable" lol. I clearly meant that it was very common. And it is, because bad players can beat better players sometimes by hiding lings out of plain site and snowballing whatever advantage they get with mass larva. Still got the wrong league btw, not that it matters as it's just a way for you to write a lazy "my league>your league" argument instead of proper discussion
The reason why I said about how it's stoppable is because that's what makes it very scarce on a higher level, it relies on many factors to be successful which makes it unreliable, the only catch being in order to defend it you require decent micro which is why it's popular lower down on ladder but not so common higher up.
I don't know why you wouldn't just say your league at this point unless you're worried it's going to prove my point.
I find very little point in discussing things with players lower than masters and ones that are playing currently hence why my most common question is about peoples league.
Just went on Nios.kr did LittleChimp you're 1 game this season gold league on america server?
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On September 14 2015 05:49 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 05:28 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 05:15 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 04:53 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 03:35 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 01:36 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 14 2015 01:22 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 13 2015 23:52 Ovid wrote:On September 13 2015 23:40 Little-Chimp wrote:
Not only is no macro boosters more fun, but also helps balance the metagame away from mass cheap unit type stuff and slows the game down slightly to a favorable pace where worker deaths matter more.
Bye bye giant zergling balls winning or losing 90% of zvz, or Terran being played like zerg. And yes, Terran had an extremely difficult time at first with no mules, but this can be fixed with some balance changes. In fact, balance of the game in general would be easier with removal of such massively variable mechanics.
At this point the only "issue" is that zerg would be a little easier than the other two, which is either a non issue or an easily solvable one by just giving zerg something else to do that isnt inject.
Guessing you've never played at beyond gold league if you think "zergling balls" = 90% of ZvZ calm down junior, it was obviously an exaggeration to make a point. Like it or not, the mass amounts of early game larva contribute to a lot of cheese/information based wins early game ZvZ. maybe next time respond to more of the general message of what I'm saying instead of letting one sentence crawl up your ass. He has a history of being a d*ck. Agreed, as a T, that Terran sucked when they removed the macro boosters - but they could have addressed that in the next patch. Just remove the macro boosters and balance please. If pointing out how ridiculous someones statement is by referencing their probable league is being a dick then sure, stating that 90% of ZvZ is zergling balls is just wrong on many levels. On September 14 2015 02:06 WrathSCII wrote:On September 14 2015 02:02 woopr wrote:
anyone who votes semi-auto macro should be banned Or votes for full auto! Fixed that for you. On September 14 2015 02:22 ffadicted wrote:
Finally a fair poll lol Umm no? Where's the option of manual macro mechanics but toned down? calm down, this thread isn't about ZvZ specifically nor is about you spouting off retarded statements based on an exaggerated sentence you disagreed with. Go ahead and tell me that the mass amounts macro boosted larva don't contribute to a ton of ZvZs ending 5 minutes in due to early ling bane attacks. Try to form an argument this time instead of (incorrectly) guessing my league and embarrassing yourself. I'm completely calm, it's quite funny that you'd think I'm not you are valuing your retorts too highly. They're all stoppable with good control, the only way it's not stoppable is if it's not scouted which is only going to happen on a 4 player map but that's due to the 12 worker change not the macro mechanics. How have I embarrassed myself what a stupid statement to make. If you want to disprove my point you'd be saying your league, so since you've not specified I'm going to say you're not gold but platinum. I'm not prepared to right out a long post addressing you as I feel it will be pointless, you have your opinion on the macro mechanics and I have mine and I think both out mindsets aren't going to budge. Just as a general overview, this poll is of poor quality. You need to include manual macro mechanics but toned down, you also need to realize that people are not taking into account the impact of the 12 worker change, the game has been largely accelerated by that for very little time gain and toning down the macro mechanics repairs that effect. My ideal would be to pretty much get a bit closer back to Hots, toned down macro mechanics and 6 workers again. Please show me where I wrote that mass ling early game was "unstoppable" lol. I clearly meant that it was very common. And it is, because bad players can beat better players sometimes by hiding lings out of plain site and snowballing whatever advantage they get with mass larva. Still got the wrong league btw, not that it matters as it's just a way for you to write a lazy "my league>your league" argument instead of proper discussion The reason why I said about how it's stoppable is because that's what makes it very scarce on a higher level, it relies on many factors to be successful which makes it unreliable, the only catch being in order to defend it you require decent micro which is why it's popular lower down on ladder but not so common higher up. I don't know why you wouldn't just say your league at this point unless you're worried it's going to prove my point. I find very little point in discussing things with players lower than masters and ones that are playing currently hence why my most common question is about peoples league.
I'm only a lowly diamond player (I do play currently) but I watch several GM level streams and you see tons of lingbane cheese recently, especially right now around the auto inject 3 larva patch. Are you GM? Are you better than those streamers?
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On September 14 2015 05:56 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 05:49 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 05:28 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 05:15 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 04:53 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 03:35 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 01:36 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 14 2015 01:22 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 13 2015 23:52 Ovid wrote:On September 13 2015 23:40 Little-Chimp wrote:
Not only is no macro boosters more fun, but also helps balance the metagame away from mass cheap unit type stuff and slows the game down slightly to a favorable pace where worker deaths matter more.
Bye bye giant zergling balls winning or losing 90% of zvz, or Terran being played like zerg. And yes, Terran had an extremely difficult time at first with no mules, but this can be fixed with some balance changes. In fact, balance of the game in general would be easier with removal of such massively variable mechanics.
At this point the only "issue" is that zerg would be a little easier than the other two, which is either a non issue or an easily solvable one by just giving zerg something else to do that isnt inject.
Guessing you've never played at beyond gold league if you think "zergling balls" = 90% of ZvZ calm down junior, it was obviously an exaggeration to make a point. Like it or not, the mass amounts of early game larva contribute to a lot of cheese/information based wins early game ZvZ. maybe next time respond to more of the general message of what I'm saying instead of letting one sentence crawl up your ass. He has a history of being a d*ck. Agreed, as a T, that Terran sucked when they removed the macro boosters - but they could have addressed that in the next patch. Just remove the macro boosters and balance please. If pointing out how ridiculous someones statement is by referencing their probable league is being a dick then sure, stating that 90% of ZvZ is zergling balls is just wrong on many levels. On September 14 2015 02:06 WrathSCII wrote:On September 14 2015 02:02 woopr wrote:
anyone who votes semi-auto macro should be banned Or votes for full auto! Fixed that for you. On September 14 2015 02:22 ffadicted wrote:
Finally a fair poll lol Umm no? Where's the option of manual macro mechanics but toned down? calm down, this thread isn't about ZvZ specifically nor is about you spouting off retarded statements based on an exaggerated sentence you disagreed with. Go ahead and tell me that the mass amounts macro boosted larva don't contribute to a ton of ZvZs ending 5 minutes in due to early ling bane attacks. Try to form an argument this time instead of (incorrectly) guessing my league and embarrassing yourself. I'm completely calm, it's quite funny that you'd think I'm not you are valuing your retorts too highly. They're all stoppable with good control, the only way it's not stoppable is if it's not scouted which is only going to happen on a 4 player map but that's due to the 12 worker change not the macro mechanics. How have I embarrassed myself what a stupid statement to make. If you want to disprove my point you'd be saying your league, so since you've not specified I'm going to say you're not gold but platinum. I'm not prepared to right out a long post addressing you as I feel it will be pointless, you have your opinion on the macro mechanics and I have mine and I think both out mindsets aren't going to budge. Just as a general overview, this poll is of poor quality. You need to include manual macro mechanics but toned down, you also need to realize that people are not taking into account the impact of the 12 worker change, the game has been largely accelerated by that for very little time gain and toning down the macro mechanics repairs that effect. My ideal would be to pretty much get a bit closer back to Hots, toned down macro mechanics and 6 workers again. Please show me where I wrote that mass ling early game was "unstoppable" lol. I clearly meant that it was very common. And it is, because bad players can beat better players sometimes by hiding lings out of plain site and snowballing whatever advantage they get with mass larva. Still got the wrong league btw, not that it matters as it's just a way for you to write a lazy "my league>your league" argument instead of proper discussion The reason why I said about how it's stoppable is because that's what makes it very scarce on a higher level, it relies on many factors to be successful which makes it unreliable, the only catch being in order to defend it you require decent micro which is why it's popular lower down on ladder but not so common higher up. I don't know why you wouldn't just say your league at this point unless you're worried it's going to prove my point. I find very little point in discussing things with players lower than masters and ones that are playing currently hence why my most common question is about peoples league. I'm only a lowly diamond player (I do play currently) but I watch several GM level streams and you see tons of lingbane cheese recently, especially right now around the auto inject 3 larva patch. Are you GM? Are you better than those streamers?
Who are you watching? I'm unaware of any (Hots) GM level zerg players that stream legacy of the void regularly. If you're talking about Lotv GM then I can say I'm equal or better than the lower half of GM since they're mostly high masters players or lower.
When you were talking about 90% ling flood were you talking about Hots or pre-macro change Lotv?
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On September 14 2015 06:15 Ovid wrote:
Who are you watching? I'm unaware of any (Hots) GM level zerg players that stream legacy of the void regularly.
There's Fenner. He's the only one that I'm aware of.
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Option I would like is : macro mechanics like they were in HotS, but toned down. Automated injects, because they introduce no interesting choice.
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On September 14 2015 06:15 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 05:56 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 05:49 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 05:28 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 05:15 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 04:53 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 14 2015 03:35 Ovid wrote:On September 14 2015 01:36 DeadByDawn wrote:On September 14 2015 01:22 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 13 2015 23:52 Ovid wrote:
[quote]
Guessing you've never played at beyond gold league if you think "zergling balls" = 90% of ZvZ calm down junior, it was obviously an exaggeration to make a point. Like it or not, the mass amounts of early game larva contribute to a lot of cheese/information based wins early game ZvZ. maybe next time respond to more of the general message of what I'm saying instead of letting one sentence crawl up your ass. He has a history of being a d*ck. Agreed, as a T, that Terran sucked when they removed the macro boosters - but they could have addressed that in the next patch. Just remove the macro boosters and balance please. If pointing out how ridiculous someones statement is by referencing their probable league is being a dick then sure, stating that 90% of ZvZ is zergling balls is just wrong on many levels. On September 14 2015 02:06 WrathSCII wrote:On September 14 2015 02:02 woopr wrote:
anyone who votes semi-auto macro should be banned Or votes for full auto! Fixed that for you. On September 14 2015 02:22 ffadicted wrote:
Finally a fair poll lol Umm no? Where's the option of manual macro mechanics but toned down? calm down, this thread isn't about ZvZ specifically nor is about you spouting off retarded statements based on an exaggerated sentence you disagreed with. Go ahead and tell me that the mass amounts macro boosted larva don't contribute to a ton of ZvZs ending 5 minutes in due to early ling bane attacks. Try to form an argument this time instead of (incorrectly) guessing my league and embarrassing yourself. I'm completely calm, it's quite funny that you'd think I'm not you are valuing your retorts too highly. They're all stoppable with good control, the only way it's not stoppable is if it's not scouted which is only going to happen on a 4 player map but that's due to the 12 worker change not the macro mechanics. How have I embarrassed myself what a stupid statement to make. If you want to disprove my point you'd be saying your league, so since you've not specified I'm going to say you're not gold but platinum. I'm not prepared to right out a long post addressing you as I feel it will be pointless, you have your opinion on the macro mechanics and I have mine and I think both out mindsets aren't going to budge. Just as a general overview, this poll is of poor quality. You need to include manual macro mechanics but toned down, you also need to realize that people are not taking into account the impact of the 12 worker change, the game has been largely accelerated by that for very little time gain and toning down the macro mechanics repairs that effect. My ideal would be to pretty much get a bit closer back to Hots, toned down macro mechanics and 6 workers again. Please show me where I wrote that mass ling early game was "unstoppable" lol. I clearly meant that it was very common. And it is, because bad players can beat better players sometimes by hiding lings out of plain site and snowballing whatever advantage they get with mass larva. Still got the wrong league btw, not that it matters as it's just a way for you to write a lazy "my league>your league" argument instead of proper discussion The reason why I said about how it's stoppable is because that's what makes it very scarce on a higher level, it relies on many factors to be successful which makes it unreliable, the only catch being in order to defend it you require decent micro which is why it's popular lower down on ladder but not so common higher up. I don't know why you wouldn't just say your league at this point unless you're worried it's going to prove my point. I find very little point in discussing things with players lower than masters and ones that are playing currently hence why my most common question is about peoples league. I'm only a lowly diamond player (I do play currently) but I watch several GM level streams and you see tons of lingbane cheese recently, especially right now around the auto inject 3 larva patch. Are you GM? Are you better than those streamers? Who are you watching? I'm unaware of any (Hots) GM level zerg players that stream legacy of the void regularly. If you're talking about Lotv GM then I can say I'm equal or better than the lower half of GM since they're mostly high masters players or lower. When you were talking about 90% ling flood were you talking about Hots or pre-macro change Lotv?
Mainly vibe, but also fenner as mentioned above. I'm not really following HOTS right now so perhaps under those macro mechanics ZvZ is completely under control, although last time I played it seemed to be pretty common. Mainly under 3 larva autoinject does it seem to be worse now than ever.
As someone just mentioned, toned down macro mechanics would also be a great solution. I just think they have too big of a factor on the game, they make the game too forgiving in some cases (saccing SCVs, emergency phoenix), or can be extremely punishing if one forgets to inject earlier in the game.
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If this poll doesn't change Blizzard's mind, I don't know what will. 
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On September 14 2015 02:31 WrathSCII wrote:
Guys please, SHARE THIS EVERYWHERE!!!
I and the OP shared this on Reddit and Bnet forums (But reddit as usual did not upvote it to get seen at all). So please help us trying to get this everywhere so we can give *censored* blizzard what we really need so we leave them no excuse to hide behind.
HELP US!
I personally appreciate your passion, and I hope we can get as many people to participate in this poll as well.
Spread the word guys! :D
EDIT: Sorry for censoring you, just trying to keep things positive. Thanks again for participating.
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On September 14 2015 07:54 usopsama wrote:If this poll doesn't change Blizzard's mind, I don't know what will.
The release date is right around the corner, which is probably the reason they suddenly pulled a 180 with macro mechanics in the first place. They're on the track to release, despite current standing problems they should be working on.
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Get rid of macro mechanics or AT LEAST have them manually operated like WOL and HOTS but with only like a 5% or 10% boost instead of the current 50% or whatever large game changing percentage that makes it the number 1 priority if you want to be competitive at the game.
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Whether or not macro mechanics stay in the long run I'm still undecided about. What I do want them to do is to remove them and try to balance the game, then we could properly see what SC2 looks like without them.
Isn't that what the beta should be for?
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looks like its fairly stable at
10% wants current
30% wants hots
60% wants no MMs
in terms of numbers [no MMs] outnumber [hots] by a 2:1 ratio
I think 2/3rds majority is enough to vote to change real-life laws, I think the community sentiment is clear.
but we will see what blizz ends up doing.
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Poll is representing who exactly ?
Top Korean pros ? I dont think so.
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On September 14 2015 12:50 Parcelleus wrote:
Poll is representing who exactly ?
Top Korean pros ? I dont think so.
Who cares? The vast majority of players are not top Korean pros.
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On September 14 2015 12:50 Parcelleus wrote:
Poll is representing who exactly ?
Top Korean pros ? I dont think so.
We are trying to spread this to everyone so we can have the biggest possible sample and present it to Blizzard. Will Blizzard care? I doubt, but at least we can say we did try and it is Blizzard's fault if they refused to listen.
They said they are 50-50 internally. Here so far it does not seem 50-50 at all. Lets try to get this as spread as possible for now.
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you should really reorder the vote list so it lines up with the bigger list
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if removing Macro boosters slows down Zerg remax. then im down :D
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EPT
