EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 435
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kwizach
3658 Posts
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 19 2014 22:54 nunez wrote: @acertos i'm not as concerned with russia, i'm not a russian (you chastise putin enough for the both of us anyway). more interesting to look at how the west again has failed at capitalizing on protests that could have led to democratic change, but instead devolved into violence because of the strange bedfellows they made. Yes, theoretical fascists with no power are always scarier than actual fascists with actual power. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On April 19 2014 21:25 PaleMan wrote: i so want some real sanctions it's not even funny it will give boost to our industry and finally Putin will force our oligarch to invest in Russia itself instead of other countries "Real sanctions", eh? How about we put a full trade embargo so Russia's GDP drops 75% in the next 12 years and 100,000s of people die from starvation (even considering last I checked, famine wasn't at all an issue in Russia) since all your infrastructure is directly and indirectly shut down and your internal economic activity is forced to become extremely limited? Would you like that? I agree about self-investment though. Seriously, that needs to happen. | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On April 20 2014 04:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: How about we put a full trade embargo so Russia's GDP drops 75% in the next 12 years and 100,000s of people die from starvation (even considering last I checked, famine wasn't at all an issue in Russia) since all your infrastructure is directly and indirectly shut down and your internal economic activity is forced to become extremely limited? Would you like that? how about you cannot do it at all | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
So why the call for real sanctions then? Isn't that what you want to have your oligarchs invest in domestic industry, so that your economy will "flourish"? | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
You don't think the rest of the world can do that? Sure we won't because a lot of people would die, but if the rest of the world were to embargo russia, you would starve out. | ||
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Yurie
12021 Posts
On April 20 2014 05:40 hunts wrote: You don't think the rest of the world can do that? Sure we won't because a lot of people would die, but if the rest of the world were to embargo russia, you would starve out. Can you link a source for that? I know the amount of farming measured in % of GPD has gone down, but don't know about starvation. | ||
KwarK
United States43565 Posts
On April 20 2014 05:46 Yurie wrote: Can you link a source for that? I know the amount of farming measured in % of GPD has gone down, but don't know about starvation. http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/19-02-2010/112304-russia_products-0/ | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 20 2014 05:46 Yurie wrote: Can you link a source for that? I know the amount of farming measured in % of GPD has gone down, but don't know about starvation. What source do you want mate, everyone knows that Russia's economy is mostly based on natural resources. If the rest of the world completely embargoes Russia, where Russia will sell its goods that its economy is so strongly based on? EDIT: Actually post above sums it up pretty well, Russia food production is basically non-existent. Everything is imported with money obtained from gas and oil sales. | ||
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Yurie
12021 Posts
On April 20 2014 05:53 KwarK wrote: http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/19-02-2010/112304-russia_products-0/ From reading that it seems they can supply themselves above starvation limit. But would forgo entire groups of food. A similar situation to Sweden? | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 20 2014 06:02 hunts wrote: I think we all can agree that it would never happen, since for 1 russia has nukes and it would be unwise to make a nuclear power be that desperate, and 2 it is inhumane. However the question asked wasn't whether or not it would happen, but was someone saying we couldn't do it. Yep, I agree. It could be done, but it won't be done. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
We have done it before, we can do it (or at least try) with Russia. The difference is Russia would probably march from Moscow to Paris in retaliation like they did a couple centuries ago lol. Smartest decision for Russia right now would be to take the Chinese approach of focusing 100% on fixing the economy for a long time. Of course Russia doesn't have the "legal" equivalent of slave labor like China does that can attract infinite investment for negligible wages and infinite labor, but it has infinite natural resources and apparently a well-educated population that it can use. | ||
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KwarK
United States43565 Posts
On April 20 2014 06:20 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: We have done it before, we can do it (or at least try) with Russia. The difference is Russia would probably march from Moscow to Paris in retaliation like they did a couple centuries ago lol. Smartest decision for Russia right now would be to take the Chinese approach of focusing 100% on fixing the economy for a long time. Of course Russia doesn't have the "legal" equivalent of slave labor like China does that can attract infinite investment for negligible wages and infinite labor, but it has infinite natural resources and apparently a well-educated population that it can use. China also had, at the time, a booming population with a very young average age. Russia is in a demographic crisis with an aging population, low birth rates and rampant drug abuse. Russia couldn't be China if it wanted to be. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On April 20 2014 06:51 KwarK wrote: China also had, at the time, a booming population with a very young average age. Russia is in a demographic crisis with an aging population, low birth rates and rampant drug abuse. Russia couldn't be China if it wanted to be. No one, especially not Europe or Japan where birth rates are dropping and population is expected to drop dramatically (excluding immigration), is going to be China if they wanted to. Why in the hell would any place want dramatic overpopulation anyways?? The US is the only exception, since we've had infinite immigration, often times people from cultures, past and present, where their #1 goal is having as many kids as possible. In addition, this does drive up the US fertility rate, which otherwise is on the decline iirc. In fact, doesn't Russia have a better fertility rate as of 2013/2014 than most places in Europe, Japan, and South Korea (especially South Korea), and improving (while other places are getting worse)? China and Russia are extreme opposites, for a very obvious difference. It's the difference between a ridiculously underdeveloped state (especially a couple decades ago and before) that until the one-child policy had the ideology that having 5-10 kids a family was a great idea, and a developed country that had an extremely catastrophic decade-long economic collapse. Even without extremely catastrophic decade-long economic collapse, a lot of places are doing worse than Russia in this regard lol. In fact, the funny (well, not so funny) thing is many of Russia's social problems are the result of the 1990s, which is no surprise though. I realize a good number people on this forum are not fond of religion, and I certainly hate its involvement in politics, but for what it's worth, the resurgence and influence of the Orthodox Church + government action is playing a huge role in influencing Russian society to have kids. The role of the Church in "resolving" one of Russia's biggest social problems is certainly not one of the things hurting their reputation. By "rampant drug abuse", I assume you're including alcoholism right? If not, I don't even know how you would describe drug abuse in places like Iran or the US. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
By "rampant drug abuse", I assume you're including alcoholism right? If not, I don't even know how you would describe drug abuse in places like Iran or the US. Read up on Krokodil. Although, i think it's not as easy to cook it anymore since codeine-access was restricted not too long ago. edit: "fun" fact, it's hard to get hard numbers about how widespread that drug is, since people die so incredibly quick from it (estimated lifespan for a deso-addict is two years). My "knowledge" about that specific topic is limited to a couple of documentaries that i watched, but in those, it was indeed described as a "drug running rampant". | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On April 20 2014 07:39 m4ini wrote: Read up on Krokodil. Although, i think it's not as easy to cook it anymore since codeine-access was restricted not too long ago. I know all about krokodil. You're singing to the choir. Believe it or not, even liberal estimates of users are a lot smaller than you would think (100,000 IIRC). It's extremely overplayed because of how destructive it is, but it's hardly as prevalent as is sometimes assumed. Almost all Russian drug usage is Afghan heroin (same with Iran, but Iran is significantly worse than Russia). There appears to be a huge consciousness about the issue of drugs and alcholism, even today. IIRC, polls in Russia showed that public opinion believes it to be the country's biggest social problem. I don't know how Russia's drug problem (NOT including alcoholism) is doing year-to-year, in this decade (it's improved from the 90s at least), but I'll just say that Russia's 1990s was history's greatest proof of Murphy's Law and leave it at that. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 20 2014 07:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: In fact, doesn't Russia have a better fertility rate as of 2013/2014 than most places in Europe, Japan, and South Korea (especially South Korea), and improving (while other places are getting worse)? . That seems to be as much a function of importation of fast breeding Central Asian immigrants, the core Russian population still seems to be declining, and when women who were born in the 1990s, the lowest birth cohort in the Russian census, enter their childbirthing years even if they somehow birth more kids than their predecessors from the 1980s there still will be less kids born over all.. meanwhile Russian males have just caught up to Soviet males of the Krushchev years in life expectancy, so good work there. Which is all bad news for paleman, more scary dark people are coming! | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 20 2014 07:50 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: I know all about krokodil. You're singing to the choir. Believe it or not, even liberal estimates of users are a lot smaller than you would think (100,000 IIRC). It's extremely overplayed because of how destructive it is, but it's hardly as prevalent as is sometimes assumed. Almost all Russian drug usage is Afghan heroin (same with Iran, but Iran is significantly worse than Russia). All estimates i read were at least above a million users, forbes is stating three millions (which is actually way more realistic than your number, since heroin is three times more expensive as desomorphine and it acts as a substitute for it), with a total of 9 million addicts over all drugs in 2012. But since you know "all about krokodil" i guess all sources on the internet should bow to your "wisdom". Russian males have just caught up to Soviet males of the Krushchev years in life expectancy The life expectancy blew my mind, when i read it. I honestly didn't think that there's that big of a difference to "more western" countries. edit: russian source russian source calling desmorphine second most used substance in russia, another source on the ban of codein-stuff over the counter, because of the heavy abuse. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On April 20 2014 07:53 Sub40APM wrote: That seems to be as much a function of importation of fast breeding Central Asian immigrants, the core Russian population still seems to be declining, and when women who were born in the 1990s, the lowest birth cohort in the Russian census, enter their childbirthing years even if they somehow birth more kids than their predecessors from the 1980s there still will be less kids born over all.. meanwhile Russian males have just caught up to Soviet males of the Krushchev years in life expectancy, so good work there. Which is all bad news for paleman, more scary dark people are coming! Lol "scary dark people" XD. Well, one thing to consider is a lot of immigrants IIRC from Central Asia are ethnically Russian Another thing to consider about "scary dark people" is a lot more people than you would expect from these places are technically 'white'. But to be honest, I'm surprised. I've heard about ethnic Russians being the primary cause, and Chechens and Tatars playing a part (although these aren't "scary dark people" either) because Islam, but never have I heard about "fast breeding Central Asian immigrants", and seriously these populations are practically negligible, even Kazakh immigrants and this probably includes the ethnic Russians. On April 20 2014 08:01 m4ini wrote: All estimates i read were at least above a million users, forbes is stating three millions (which is actually way more realistic than your number, since heroin is three times as expensive as desomorphine), with a total of 9 million addicts over all drugs in 2012. But since you know "all about krokodil" i guess all sources on the internet should bow to your "wisdom". The life expectancy blew my mind, when i read it. I honestly didn't think that there's that big of a difference to "more western" countries. Come on, don't be a smart ass, especially when my source is Internet sources. When I used to care about this shit I saw 100k a few times. And like you purportedly, I'm bowing to the wisdom of sources on the Internet. http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/16/health/krokodil-zombie-drug/ http://soberliving.crchealth.com/krokodil-morphine-drug-russia-is-the-u-s/ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/krokodil-the-drug-that-eats-junkies-2300787.html http://hiphopwired.com/2013/11/15/flesh-eating-krokodil-drug-appears-u-s/ (I'm not about to post 100 more links) I'm sorry that everything I've seen in the last year or so said 100,000 until you posted. I'm sorry that I get Internet sources too, despite your attitude that only you do. It doesn't mandate that you be an asshole though. To your credit though, I didn't know Germans were capable of passive-aggressive sarcasm. Bravo. | ||
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