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Ukraine Crisis - Page 197

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
phagga
Profile Joined February 2012
Switzerland2194 Posts
March 04 2014 12:44 GMT
#3921
On March 04 2014 21:34 Silvanel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 21:15 Dan HH wrote:
On March 04 2014 20:44 plgElwood wrote:
People on Maidan DO NOT represent Ukraine.
Not in Russian view or in terms of Western-democracy.

EU (and basicly all Nato countries) jumped to the conclusion "They are protesting, and yanukovic seems evil ergo the Maidan-Movement has to be the democratic one that we like and support".

That was horribly wrong and just to please their own citizen views. These fucking idiots.

If 10.000 people rally to Pen Ave 1600 and demand Obama, Government, parlament, senat removed and claim their own President and Represantatives are now the legit Government of the US, how would you act?

Thats basicly what happend in Ukraine.

They removed yanukovich, but had NO RIGHT to do so. They should have taken the Agreement, with presidential rights removed back to state of 2004, elections in december 2014.

But no, they acted like smartasses.
Voted for themselves, and got to power with no democratic election.
Even if they seem "decent" they are not legit.

First thing they do, forbid people to use russian as official language, not minding the russianspeakers in Ukraine, not minding 30% of some east regions ARE FUCKING RUSSIANS.

Now Putin has a invitation to claim every part of ukraine back, he just has to sent some guys with baseballbats and helmets to the local-governmental buildings, let them claim "we want to be russian" and next thing they see is a line of T90
Tanks "defending the people".

Awesome job Maidainians and EU-ForeignMinisters !


Neither side gives a crap about the Ukranian people or legitimacy, both Russia and EU & US simply want a Ukranian government pliable to their interests. Closing their eyes when legality is broken in their favor and yelling bloody murder when legality is broken in their opposition's favor, and this has been the situation for long before the current topic. Two hypocrites claiming to be the sole one playing by the rules, its a theatre of the grotesque.


Thats BS! There were many spontaneous aid gatherings held along Poland. Ukrainians wounded
in clashes and protests are being treated in polish hospitals. We do CARE!


The citizens of Poland (and many other countries) do care, but the leading politicians of the EU, US and Russia do not.
"A person who does not concern himself with politics has already made the political choice he was so anxious to spare himself: he is serving the ruling party." - Max Frisch
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
March 04 2014 12:48 GMT
#3922
I didn't see this one yet. Those Ukrainian airforce soldiers are some really brave men.


Neosteel Enthusiast
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 04 2014 12:54 GMT
#3923







Leverage found?
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 04 2014 12:56 GMT
#3924
On March 04 2014 21:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I didn't see this one yet. Those Ukrainian airforce soldiers are some really brave men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE

On the first glance seems to be a mix of local militias and Russian "military advisers".
kukarachaa
Profile Joined February 2011
United States284 Posts
March 04 2014 12:58 GMT
#3925
On March 04 2014 21:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I didn't see this one yet. Those Ukrainian airforce soldiers are some really brave men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE


Just a guess, but I don't think that's Russian army, looks like Crimean "self defense" soldiers.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 04 2014 13:00 GMT
#3926
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 04 2014 13:00 GMT
#3927
On March 04 2014 21:58 kukarachaa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 21:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I didn't see this one yet. Those Ukrainian airforce soldiers are some really brave men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE


Just a guess, but I don't think that's Russian army, looks like Crimean "self defense" soldiers.

Possible, but more likely it is a mix. Those two screaming and shooting guys act completely different than the more professional looking guys. And I am pretty sure even if majority were Russian-armed local militia, there would be "military advisers" as it is diplomatically called
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
March 04 2014 13:02 GMT
#3928
On March 04 2014 22:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/440833406910218241

Those tweets are starting to get rather annoying, many of them have very low (near to 0) information per area ratio and break the page during loading.
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
March 04 2014 13:02 GMT
#3929
On March 04 2014 21:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I didn't see this one yet. Those Ukrainian airforce soldiers are some really brave men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvdmmwoeQE


While I can understand that the Russian soldiers might feel threatened, they appear to be outnumbered pretty badly here..
Still pointing at unarmed men with LMGs and Kalashnikovs seems like a stupid idea that could go horribly wrong
"Yeah buddy"
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6342 Posts
March 04 2014 13:04 GMT
#3930
On March 04 2014 22:02 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 22:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/440833406910218241

Those tweets are starting to get rather annoying, many of them have very low (near to 0) information per area ratio and break the page during loading.

Not to mention most of the tweets are from irrelevant people. Wish TL had a different way of showing twitter content
"No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot." - Mark Twain
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 04 2014 13:07 GMT
#3931
Take the tweet issue to the relevant Website Feedback thread.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
March 04 2014 13:11 GMT
#3932
On March 04 2014 21:34 Silvanel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 21:15 Dan HH wrote:
On March 04 2014 20:44 plgElwood wrote:
People on Maidan DO NOT represent Ukraine.
Not in Russian view or in terms of Western-democracy.

EU (and basicly all Nato countries) jumped to the conclusion "They are protesting, and yanukovic seems evil ergo the Maidan-Movement has to be the democratic one that we like and support".

That was horribly wrong and just to please their own citizen views. These fucking idiots.

If 10.000 people rally to Pen Ave 1600 and demand Obama, Government, parlament, senat removed and claim their own President and Represantatives are now the legit Government of the US, how would you act?

Thats basicly what happend in Ukraine.

They removed yanukovich, but had NO RIGHT to do so. They should have taken the Agreement, with presidential rights removed back to state of 2004, elections in december 2014.

But no, they acted like smartasses.
Voted for themselves, and got to power with no democratic election.
Even if they seem "decent" they are not legit.

First thing they do, forbid people to use russian as official language, not minding the russianspeakers in Ukraine, not minding 30% of some east regions ARE FUCKING RUSSIANS.

Now Putin has a invitation to claim every part of ukraine back, he just has to sent some guys with baseballbats and helmets to the local-governmental buildings, let them claim "we want to be russian" and next thing they see is a line of T90
Tanks "defending the people".

Awesome job Maidainians and EU-ForeignMinisters !


Neither side gives a crap about the Ukranian people or legitimacy, both Russia and EU & US simply want a Ukranian government pliable to their interests. Closing their eyes when legality is broken in their favor and yelling bloody murder when legality is broken in their opposition's favor, and this has been the situation for long before the current topic. Two hypocrites claiming to be the sole one playing by the rules, its a theatre of the grotesque.


Thats BS! There were many spontaneous aid gatherings held along Poland. Ukrainians wounded
in clashes and protests are being treated in polish hospitals. We do CARE!

You maybe, but France, Germany and UK don't. Basically in EU happens whatever these 3 countries say.
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
March 04 2014 13:12 GMT
#3933
On March 04 2014 21:44 phagga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 21:34 Silvanel wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:15 Dan HH wrote:
On March 04 2014 20:44 plgElwood wrote:
People on Maidan DO NOT represent Ukraine.
Not in Russian view or in terms of Western-democracy.

EU (and basicly all Nato countries) jumped to the conclusion "They are protesting, and yanukovic seems evil ergo the Maidan-Movement has to be the democratic one that we like and support".

That was horribly wrong and just to please their own citizen views. These fucking idiots.

If 10.000 people rally to Pen Ave 1600 and demand Obama, Government, parlament, senat removed and claim their own President and Represantatives are now the legit Government of the US, how would you act?

Thats basicly what happend in Ukraine.

They removed yanukovich, but had NO RIGHT to do so. They should have taken the Agreement, with presidential rights removed back to state of 2004, elections in december 2014.

But no, they acted like smartasses.
Voted for themselves, and got to power with no democratic election.
Even if they seem "decent" they are not legit.

First thing they do, forbid people to use russian as official language, not minding the russianspeakers in Ukraine, not minding 30% of some east regions ARE FUCKING RUSSIANS.

Now Putin has a invitation to claim every part of ukraine back, he just has to sent some guys with baseballbats and helmets to the local-governmental buildings, let them claim "we want to be russian" and next thing they see is a line of T90
Tanks "defending the people".

Awesome job Maidainians and EU-ForeignMinisters !


Neither side gives a crap about the Ukranian people or legitimacy, both Russia and EU & US simply want a Ukranian government pliable to their interests. Closing their eyes when legality is broken in their favor and yelling bloody murder when legality is broken in their opposition's favor, and this has been the situation for long before the current topic. Two hypocrites claiming to be the sole one playing by the rules, its a theatre of the grotesque.


Thats BS! There were many spontaneous aid gatherings held along Poland. Ukrainians wounded
in clashes and protests are being treated in polish hospitals. We do CARE!


The citizens of Poland (and many other countries) do care, but the leading politicians of the EU, US and Russia do not.

This is only partly true, the US might not care about Ukraine, it is rather far from the US geographically and I am sure Obama rather wants to concentrate on other things than Ukraine and Putin.
Putin appears to care about no one but himself and his Empire building simulator
but to state that none of the European leaders care is bollocks. Some of them do

Russia and USA is military powers more than anything.
The EU is not and have no intention of being one
"Yeah buddy"
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17720 Posts
March 04 2014 13:13 GMT
#3934
Throughout this entire thing (the whole EuroMaidan, from start till now) the Ukrainian military leadership was acting very mature and composed. I tip my hat to them.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
March 04 2014 13:15 GMT
#3935
On March 04 2014 22:11 Pr0wler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 21:34 Silvanel wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:15 Dan HH wrote:
On March 04 2014 20:44 plgElwood wrote:
People on Maidan DO NOT represent Ukraine.
Not in Russian view or in terms of Western-democracy.

EU (and basicly all Nato countries) jumped to the conclusion "They are protesting, and yanukovic seems evil ergo the Maidan-Movement has to be the democratic one that we like and support".

That was horribly wrong and just to please their own citizen views. These fucking idiots.

If 10.000 people rally to Pen Ave 1600 and demand Obama, Government, parlament, senat removed and claim their own President and Represantatives are now the legit Government of the US, how would you act?

Thats basicly what happend in Ukraine.

They removed yanukovich, but had NO RIGHT to do so. They should have taken the Agreement, with presidential rights removed back to state of 2004, elections in december 2014.

But no, they acted like smartasses.
Voted for themselves, and got to power with no democratic election.
Even if they seem "decent" they are not legit.

First thing they do, forbid people to use russian as official language, not minding the russianspeakers in Ukraine, not minding 30% of some east regions ARE FUCKING RUSSIANS.

Now Putin has a invitation to claim every part of ukraine back, he just has to sent some guys with baseballbats and helmets to the local-governmental buildings, let them claim "we want to be russian" and next thing they see is a line of T90
Tanks "defending the people".

Awesome job Maidainians and EU-ForeignMinisters !


Neither side gives a crap about the Ukranian people or legitimacy, both Russia and EU & US simply want a Ukranian government pliable to their interests. Closing their eyes when legality is broken in their favor and yelling bloody murder when legality is broken in their opposition's favor, and this has been the situation for long before the current topic. Two hypocrites claiming to be the sole one playing by the rules, its a theatre of the grotesque.


Thats BS! There were many spontaneous aid gatherings held along Poland. Ukrainians wounded
in clashes and protests are being treated in polish hospitals. We do CARE!

You maybe, but France, Germany and UK don't. Basically in EU happens whatever these 3 countries say.


That ain't true, sure France, Germany and the UK have a lot to say, of course they do, they got the biggest populations.
But the Eurupean Parlement is skewered to favoring smaller nations by far. Also every nation gets 1 commissioner, and 1 only.

and it is not like those 3 agree on everyting or even many things
"Yeah buddy"
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
March 04 2014 13:17 GMT
#3936
On March 04 2014 22:13 Manit0u wrote:
Throughout this entire thing (the whole EuroMaidan, from start till now) the Ukrainian military leadership was acting very mature and composed. I tip my hat to them.

Agree. Not to mention that marching unarmed with the (soviet) flag that has already seen Yalta towards people firing warning shots is both genius and bad ass as hell.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 04 2014 13:17 GMT
#3937
On March 04 2014 22:11 Pr0wler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2014 21:34 Silvanel wrote:
On March 04 2014 21:15 Dan HH wrote:
On March 04 2014 20:44 plgElwood wrote:
People on Maidan DO NOT represent Ukraine.
Not in Russian view or in terms of Western-democracy.

EU (and basicly all Nato countries) jumped to the conclusion "They are protesting, and yanukovic seems evil ergo the Maidan-Movement has to be the democratic one that we like and support".

That was horribly wrong and just to please their own citizen views. These fucking idiots.

If 10.000 people rally to Pen Ave 1600 and demand Obama, Government, parlament, senat removed and claim their own President and Represantatives are now the legit Government of the US, how would you act?

Thats basicly what happend in Ukraine.

They removed yanukovich, but had NO RIGHT to do so. They should have taken the Agreement, with presidential rights removed back to state of 2004, elections in december 2014.

But no, they acted like smartasses.
Voted for themselves, and got to power with no democratic election.
Even if they seem "decent" they are not legit.

First thing they do, forbid people to use russian as official language, not minding the russianspeakers in Ukraine, not minding 30% of some east regions ARE FUCKING RUSSIANS.

Now Putin has a invitation to claim every part of ukraine back, he just has to sent some guys with baseballbats and helmets to the local-governmental buildings, let them claim "we want to be russian" and next thing they see is a line of T90
Tanks "defending the people".

Awesome job Maidainians and EU-ForeignMinisters !


Neither side gives a crap about the Ukranian people or legitimacy, both Russia and EU & US simply want a Ukranian government pliable to their interests. Closing their eyes when legality is broken in their favor and yelling bloody murder when legality is broken in their opposition's favor, and this has been the situation for long before the current topic. Two hypocrites claiming to be the sole one playing by the rules, its a theatre of the grotesque.


Thats BS! There were many spontaneous aid gatherings held along Poland. Ukrainians wounded
in clashes and protests are being treated in polish hospitals. We do CARE!

You maybe, but France, Germany and UK don't. Basically in EU happens whatever these 3 countries say.


That's blatantly false. Different countries take the lead on different issues. I've been in those negotiation rooms, I still have enough colleagues there to attest to the fact. Naturally, if any country truly opposes something, it will not fly. But that's generally the case also with respect to the smallest countries.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-04 13:59:34
March 04 2014 13:22 GMT
#3938
Very unflattering analysis of Putin's press conference (take it with a pinch of salt):

Merkel was right, Putin has lost it.

Conclusions:




For the last few years, it has become something like conventional knowledge in Moscow journalistic circles that Putin was no longer getting good information, that he was surrounded by yes-men who created for him a parallel informational universe. "They're beginning to believe their own propaganda," Gleb Pavlovsky told me when I was in Moscow in December. Pavlovsky had been a close advisor to the early Putin, helping him win his first presidential election in 2000. (When, in 2011, Putin decided to return for a third term as president, Pavlovsky declared the old Putin dead.) And still, it wasn't fully vetted information. We were like astronomers, studying refractions of light that reached us from great distances, and used them to draw our conclusions.

Today's performance, though, put all that speculation to rest. Merkel was absolutely right: Putin has lost it. Unfortunately, it makes him that much harder to deal with.


****

Edit:

A comprehensive analysis of the diplomatic failings of the EU:

+ Show Spoiler [Long article] +

The unfolding political catastrophe in Ukraine has led not only to a vivid debate about appropriate crisis management but also to deep European soul-searching about the root causes of the disaster.

The situation is complex, and no one actor deserves all the blame. But it is now clear that the EU made almost every strategic mistake possible in its handling of the Ukraine file. Europe’s leaders should examine those mistakes carefully to avoid making them again in the future.

Initially, the EU’s Eastern Partnership appeared to be moving in the right direction. Until late 2013, the EU had an interesting offer for Ukraine: a series of association and free-trade agreements that would grant the country access to Western money and markets.

The EU institutions made the project a priority and created an impression of political unity around it. Even the European Neighborhood Policy’s conceptual flaws, analyzed lucidly in a recent paper by Carnegie Europe’s Stefan Lehne, did not derail the undertaking. Everyone expected the Ukrainian government to sign the EU accords at a summit in Vilnius in November 2013.

Techau is the director of Carnegie Europe, the European center of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Techau works on EU integration and foreign policy, transatlantic affairs, and German foreign and security policy.

But then everything fell apart.
In their first mistake, Europeans completely misread their interlocutors’ motivations and interests. The EU failed to see that then president Viktor Yanukovych was not interested in developing Ukraine’s economy and modernizing its politics and society. All he was concerned about was his political survival. The EU’s tools, with their assumption that Ukraine would be willing to reform, were bound to be useless.

Even more disastrous was the EU’s misreading of Russia. In recent years, Russian President Vladimir Putin has talked about the Kremlin’s fears of Western encirclement. He has declared that EU and NATO enlargement are part of a conspiracy to destroy Russia, that Ukraine is not really a sovereign nation, and that Western agents provocateurs were behind Ukraine’s 2004–2005 Orange Revolution.

Amid all that rhetoric, the West failed to recognize that Putin was deadly serious. Such talk was dismissed either as cheap propaganda or as the mild lunacy of a handful of overideologized true believers. Nobody imagined that Putin himself really believed his own bluster.

But for the Russian president, the fight over Ukraine is not an imperialistic adventure, it is a fight for survival against a mortal Western enemy. Just because observers in the West know that’s nonsense, that doesn’t mean that others think the same. Such Western projections were finally debunked when German Chancellor Angela Merkel remarked to U.S. President Barack Obama on March 2 that Putin was “in another world.”

Putin is indeed acting within in an alternative reality. That the West failed to grasp this, despite enormous diplomatic efforts and an array of forums, summits, and consultations, was probably its biggest strategic mistake.

As a consequence, the EU made its second error: it realized too late that it was in the middle of a geopolitical game. The EU brought a low-politics toolbox to a high-politics construction site. It believed, almost until the day of Yanukovych’s ouster, that the Ukraine dossier was merely a technical one that could be dealt with by experienced bureaucrats instead of senior politicians. That was never going to work.

Equally important was mistake number three, the EU’s failure to coordinate its approach in Europe’s East with the United States. To be fair, Washington was not particularly interested in yet another boring technical EU project, and it also woke up rather late to the geopolitical eminence of the Ukraine crisis.

But in its dealings with what Russia considers its own legitimate sphere of influence, the EU should never take any major steps without its most important ally firmly aligned. That might hurt the pride of some Europeans, but that kind of pride has never been a particularly helpful adviser. The Ukraine disaster must also be considered a momentous failure of the transatlantic relationship.

Blunder number four was the EU’s inability to commit itself to the Eastern neighborhood with full force. Despite a show of political unity before the Vilnius summit, most EU member states did not have their whole heart in the matter.

Germany came on board as a supporter of the EU’s Eastern Partnership, but had to be lured into doing so. The UK had lost all interest in EU foreign policy long ago and was afraid of a worsening of already strained relations with Moscow. Southern countries were reluctant as they feared a shift of focus away from the EU’s Southern neighborhood. Other members were too absorbed with domestic affairs and economic woes, or were just too small to be bothered.

And so a cornerstone of the EU’s external relations was never infused with enough political energy from the member states, the only real source of power in the EU system.

Finally, the EU’s fifth strategic shortcoming was to underestimate the attractiveness of its own model to millions of Ukrainians. So used to crisis talk, self-bashing, and Euroskepticism at home, Europeans could barely believe it when protesters in Kiev wrapped themselves in EU flags. Demonstrators were not only standing up to corruption and mismanagement but were also demanding a right to pursue their liberal, European dream.

It is certainly useful to be self-critical. But for the EU to be ignorant about its own core strengths and soft power was a grave strategic mistake.

None of these considerations will help the EU much in the immediate crisis management of the Crimean crisis and the standoff with Russia. But eventually, room for strategy will return to Europe’s Eastern neighborhood. The EU would do well to take a careful look at its own strategic mistakes to avoid repeating them when that moment comes.
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
plgElwood
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany518 Posts
March 04 2014 14:03 GMT
#3939
I guess it would be helpful for officials not to bash Putin in public. Same as for anyone you HAVE to talk to to reach your goals.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
March 04 2014 14:07 GMT
#3940
On March 04 2014 22:07 Ghanburighan wrote:
Take the tweet issue to the relevant Website Feedback thread.


I would ask you though that you can keep your tweets to relevant persons? You posted a lot of tweets from important people, but also keep posting tweets by a lot of random people.

It's good that you post those, but please stop spamming every thing those people tweet - if I find a person's tweet useful enough I can easily follow them. Basically more a "person X is tweeting you should follow them" and not a "here's another update person X tweeted another thing!".

I'd appreciate it, but obviously cannot force you to stop if you think it's an integral part of the discussion & this thread.
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