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On January 22 2014 01:19 Nikon wrote:
I'm speechless... perhaps you people should come live here for a while and actually find out what the situation is before spouting pre-canned bullshit.
And perhaps you should spend just a single hour researching where your problems actually come from before you decide to blame the organisation that has transferred literally billions of our money to you in the last years.
I am sorry if what was expressed here offends you personally, the ignorance and absurd list of points you posted earlier offends me and quite a few others just as much.
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So, Tula, where are our problems coming from? Bulgaria has kept mega strict financial policy, at the expense of every single citizen of the country and maybe has the lowest debt from all the EU countries. Or maybe we should do it like Greece? Or maybe we should put every billa, metro, OMV, etc etc on fire so they dont kill the local bulgarian businesses, because there is no legal instrument within EU to protect the small businesses in the developing countries? Maybe the billions are going exactly the opposite way of what you think. Ask your dad, he may be working in OMV.
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Yes because those billions totally don't flow right back to the EU through foreign companies that polute our current market. If you're going to call somebody ignorant, at least use a factually correct basis for doing so.
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On January 22 2014 01:10 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 00:24 Doublemint wrote:On January 22 2014 00:14 Fildun wrote:On January 22 2014 00:12 Doublemint wrote:On January 22 2014 00:07 Fildun wrote:On January 22 2014 00:03 Doublemint wrote:On January 22 2014 00:02 Fildun wrote:On January 22 2014 00:00 Doublemint wrote:On January 21 2014 23:56 Nikon wrote:
What the fuck is your problem? On January 21 2014 23:57 mdb wrote:
lol Apparently I hit a nerve. lol. Yes, personal attacks usually do that. lol. Personal_Attacks_ ?_? What personal attacks are you talking about? Well you basically just called them corrupt pieces of shit who are living of our money. I can imagine that they don't like that. Also, please, voting politicians out of office? Isn't everybody in western Europe currently complaining that all politicians are shit, don't listen to us and that there are no alternatives? Ever thought that the same, but even worse, might be happening there too? I called their politicians corrupt pieces of shit. Though that's, at least to some degree, true for about every country in the world ~ I never called >them< anything. And yes, if you don't like voting stupid politicians out of office then found your own party and/or become a politician. Apart from that there hardly is any alternative now, is there? You said, and I quote "Change that fucking mentality of 'corruption is ok'." I think you actually meant the citizens there. Or at least that's the way it looked like to me. And how do you think starting a political party in a corrupt system will work? I see you are quite the optimist. If you don't start fighting for your voice to be heard, you lose it. Apathy is the exact opposite democracy is about. Meet like minded people, organize, hell I don't know. But if shit is that bad and your best point is that some external force is to blame for everything - things won't change on their own. Well, they can always find a like minded people and leave EU. Let's see how would that work. Customs tax, passports and visas to enter any country to the west for starters. I wonder what the outrage would be. The problem is, there are people in every country that think they are fucking entitled to things without giving something in return and all they do is blame outside forces for their misery. The thing is that EU is not a fucking gold egg laying goose or a cow to be guzzled endlessly without giving it something in return. If someone does not like his life, he should do something about it, not cry blaming everyone but himself for his poor situation.
Lack of visas/passport for traveling around Europe has little to do with joining the EU - it's Schengen Area. Customs tax can be a good thing, nearly all developed/wealthy countries used it extensively to get rich: the USA, the UK, Finland, South Korea, Singapore, Germany, France, and so on, and so on. Completely opening your economy to much stronger ones is a recipe for disaster...
On January 22 2014 01:47 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 01:19 Nikon wrote:
I'm speechless... perhaps you people should come live here for a while and actually find out what the situation is before spouting pre-canned bullshit. And perhaps you should spend just a single hour researching where your problems actually come from before you decide to blame the organisation that has transferred literally billions of our money to you in the last years. I am sorry if what was expressed here offends you personally, the ignorance and absurd list of points you posted earlier offends me and quite a few others just as much.
I dunno about Bulgaria, but roughly 80% of the money Poland gets from the EU (not sure whether it's the money we get reduced by the amount we pay to the EU or just the money we get, meaning we have to pay our share on top of that; would have to read about that again) goes back to Western European countries (mainly Germany). That's because the whole thing was set up in such a way that companies from countries with weak economy/industry cannot meet the requirements of the investments as defined by the EU. As a result, the latter, if they even participate, are usually at the bottom of the food chain.
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It is funny to hear how Bulgaria/Poland are the only EU member states that have problems, and the problems have been specially set up by EU just to cripple them, without any other reason.
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On January 22 2014 03:00 kalstrams wrote:
It is funny to hear how Bulgaria/Poland are the only EU member states that have problems, and the problems have been specially set up by EU just to cripple them, without any other reason.
I'm pretty sure it's not just Poland and Bulgaria that are being exploited economically. Not to mention the fact that you make it sound as if western countries exploiting other countries was something unheard of, a conspiracy theory. They have hundreds of years of experience of doing this openly.
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Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia.
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On January 22 2014 03:35 kalstrams wrote:
Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia.
You are mistaking ridicule for arguments. 80-90% of Poland's industry, banking and trade belongs to foreign capital due to the infamous shock therapy. Countries whose own capital controls those sectors have, as a rule, much higher wage share in GDP and salaries rising at a faster rate. That means Polish consumers have much lower purchasing power compared to people living in Western Europe and this situation, at best, will stagnate, or, at worst, lead to a downward spiral (mainly due to the brain drain that post-soviet countries are experiencing).
Either Latvia is in a much better situation or you're looking through rose-tinted glasses due to being well-off/your family benefiting from the status quo.
edit: Anyway, enough of this.
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Yeah, enough of your lack of common sense and poor working knowledge of English.
User was warned for this post
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On January 22 2014 04:07 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 03:35 kalstrams wrote:
Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia. You are mistaking ridicule for arguments. 80-90% of Poland's industry, banking and trade belongs to foreign capital due to the infamous shock therapy. Countries whose own capital controls those sectors have, as a rule, much higher wage share in GDP and salaries rising at a faster rate. That means Polish consumers have much lower purchasing power compared to people living in Western Europe and this situation, at best, will stagnate, or, at worst, lead to a downward spiral (mainly due to the brain drain that post-soviet countries are experiencing). Either Latvia is in a much better situation or you're looking through rose-tinted glasses due to being well-off/your family benefiting from the status quo. edit: Anyway, enough of this.
Companies end up in the hands of those who value them at the higher price. That is how capitalism works, EU has nothing to do with this. What do you suggest? Nationalize industry, banking and trade companies and put a ban on selling company shares to foreign investors?
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United States43677 Posts
On January 22 2014 04:25 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:07 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2014 03:35 kalstrams wrote:
Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia. You are mistaking ridicule for arguments. 80-90% of Poland's industry, banking and trade belongs to foreign capital due to the infamous shock therapy. Countries whose own capital controls those sectors have, as a rule, much higher wage share in GDP and salaries rising at a faster rate. That means Polish consumers have much lower purchasing power compared to people living in Western Europe and this situation, at best, will stagnate, or, at worst, lead to a downward spiral (mainly due to the brain drain that post-soviet countries are experiencing). Either Latvia is in a much better situation or you're looking through rose-tinted glasses due to being well-off/your family benefiting from the status quo. edit: Anyway, enough of this. Companies end up in the hands of those who value them at the higher price. That is how capitalism works, EU has nothing to do with this. What do you suggest? Nationalize industry, banking and trade companies and put a ban on selling company shares to foreign investors?
He's saying that free trade between unequal economies can have a devastating impact on the less developed economy which would still be perfectly capable of surviving and flourishing behind a tariff wall until it reached a point in which it could compete on its own. The current situation renders Polish companies unable to compete with the wages their western equivalents can offer while being unable to retain their market share against outside competition, let alone expand outwards. Poland was vulnerable and left unable to defend itself due to being forced to hold its own against nations which weren't run from the Kremlin 25 years ago.
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On January 22 2014 04:25 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:07 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2014 03:35 kalstrams wrote:
Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia. You are mistaking ridicule for arguments. 80-90% of Poland's industry, banking and trade belongs to foreign capital due to the infamous shock therapy. Countries whose own capital controls those sectors have, as a rule, much higher wage share in GDP and salaries rising at a faster rate. That means Polish consumers have much lower purchasing power compared to people living in Western Europe and this situation, at best, will stagnate, or, at worst, lead to a downward spiral (mainly due to the brain drain that post-soviet countries are experiencing). Either Latvia is in a much better situation or you're looking through rose-tinted glasses due to being well-off/your family benefiting from the status quo. edit: Anyway, enough of this. Companies end up in the hands of those who value them at the higher price. That is how capitalism works, EU has nothing to do with this. What do you suggest? Nationalize industry, banking and trade companies and put a ban on selling company shares to foreign investors?
Did I say that EU was the reason? Formally, EU did not even exist during the shock therapy in Poland - the reason Poland is where it is now. And, please, stop idealizing capitalism. Free market for the sake of free market is a stupid as planned economy. Countries with strong economies will advertise it as the best thing since sliced bread - they do that so that they can easily dominate other countries economically. But read how they themselves built their wealth - hint: it wasn't through free market.
What do I suggest? Do what all the countries I've mentioned did. Prevent foreign capital from taking over the banking system (read how restrictive most of those countries were in that regard - the USA didn't even allow foreign banks to operate on its territory for a long while, until the country became the economic superpower it is to this day), protect your own market, let your industry catch up with competition (Germany XIX-XX century, Finland early XX century, several Asian countries post-WW II, there are numerous examples).
Read or watch something by Ha-Joon Chang, a Korean economist from the University of Cambridge. I find the things he says very convincing.
On January 22 2014 04:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:25 Cheerio wrote:On January 22 2014 04:07 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2014 03:35 kalstrams wrote:
Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia. You are mistaking ridicule for arguments. 80-90% of Poland's industry, banking and trade belongs to foreign capital due to the infamous shock therapy. Countries whose own capital controls those sectors have, as a rule, much higher wage share in GDP and salaries rising at a faster rate. That means Polish consumers have much lower purchasing power compared to people living in Western Europe and this situation, at best, will stagnate, or, at worst, lead to a downward spiral (mainly due to the brain drain that post-soviet countries are experiencing). Either Latvia is in a much better situation or you're looking through rose-tinted glasses due to being well-off/your family benefiting from the status quo. edit: Anyway, enough of this. Companies end up in the hands of those who value them at the higher price. That is how capitalism works, EU has nothing to do with this. What do you suggest? Nationalize industry, banking and trade companies and put a ban on selling company shares to foreign investors? He's saying that free trade between unequal economies can have a devastating impact on the less developed economy which would still be perfectly capable of surviving and flourishing behind a tariff wall until it reached a point in which it could compete on its own. The current situation renders Polish companies unable to compete with the wages their western equivalents can offer while being unable to retain their market share against outside competition, let alone expand outwards. Poland was vulnerable and left unable to defend itself due to being forced to hold its own against nations which weren't run from the Kremlin 25 years ago.
It was more than that. Once Polish companies were bought by Western ones, nearly all Polish IP's were done away with. And not everything was years/decades behind the West. It's just not in the interest of people responsible for this to speak about it - the West can boast how it modernised Poland in every way imaginable and our corrupt politicians can pretend the transition went smoothly. In reality, we were made dependent on Western technology, making developing our own industry economically unfeasible.
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A social poll has been released according to which only 51% of Ukrainians want to leave in a democracy, while 20,5% want authoritarianism. The support for a democracy was 77% in the West and 36% in the East.
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On January 22 2014 04:40 Cheerio wrote:
A social poll has been released according to which only 51% of Ukrainians want to leave in a democracy, while 20,5% want authoritarianism. The support for a democracy was 77% in the West and 36% in the East.
And how does that poll look by age groups? I have a hunch that the people that want autoritarianism would be significantly older.
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Post a link to that poll, if you do not mind.
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On January 22 2014 04:38 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:25 Cheerio wrote:On January 22 2014 04:07 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2014 03:35 kalstrams wrote:
Yeah, I have heard that there are still barons and slaves in Latvia. You are mistaking ridicule for arguments. 80-90% of Poland's industry, banking and trade belongs to foreign capital due to the infamous shock therapy. Countries whose own capital controls those sectors have, as a rule, much higher wage share in GDP and salaries rising at a faster rate. That means Polish consumers have much lower purchasing power compared to people living in Western Europe and this situation, at best, will stagnate, or, at worst, lead to a downward spiral (mainly due to the brain drain that post-soviet countries are experiencing). Either Latvia is in a much better situation or you're looking through rose-tinted glasses due to being well-off/your family benefiting from the status quo. edit: Anyway, enough of this. Companies end up in the hands of those who value them at the higher price. That is how capitalism works, EU has nothing to do with this. What do you suggest? Nationalize industry, banking and trade companies and put a ban on selling company shares to foreign investors? Did I say that EU was the reason? Formally, EU did not even exist during the shock therapy in Poland - the reason Poland is where it is now. And, please, stop idealizing capitalism. Free market for the sake of free market is a stupid as planned economy. Countries with strong economies will advertise it as the best thing since sliced bread - they do that so that they can easily dominate other countries economically. But read how they themselves built their wealth - hint: it wasn't through free market. What do I suggest? Do what all the countries I've mentioned did. Prevent foreign capital from taking over the banking system (read how restrictive most of those countries were in that regard - the USA didn't even allow foreign banks to operate on its territory for a long while, until the country became the economic superpower it is to this day), protect your own market, let your industry catch up with competition (Germany XIX-XX century, Finland early XX century, several Asian countries post-WW II, there are numerous examples). Read or watch something by Ha-Joon Chang, a Korean economist from the University of Cambridge. I find the things he says very convincing.
1) the shock therapy was clearly done with many mistakes, but that is not the primary reason why "Poland is where it is now". The primary reason is that Poland lost decades building ineffective communism-type economy and could not effectively compete once it's days were over. If you think there was a way to make the transition painlessly you are deluding yourself.
2) Yeah, right. Guess what there had been pretty much no foreign capital in Ukraine up till 2005 (after Orange Revolution). Ukraine was industrially on a similar level with Poland when USSR broke down, GDP per capita had also been pretty similar. Right now Poland has almost 3 times higher GDP per capita compared to Ukraine. Guess foreign capital is not that bad after all.
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On January 20 2014 23:40 kalstrams wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 13:05 1Dhalism wrote:
As an american those laws seem like the norm to me. To be fair i think a lot of eastern europeans view the west in a very unrealistic way. It's not the liberties that the west showers its citizens with it's opportunities to live a decent life.
Also looking at the pro-maidan parties, you just can't possibly wish that they get any traction. UNA UNSO, Nationalists? These are the people that can only make things worse when in power. How about jurisdictional system not being separate from government ? I.e. you can not sue anything that is remotely close to government. For example (real case), regular worker-class guy gets 7 year sentence in prisons for a fight that resulted in minor injuries for a son of a local clerk in Ministry of Health (I'll not bother myself with proper abbreviation), while a guy from Ministry of Education (Same abbreviation comment) gets 2 year probation (only probation, no sentence) for killing another person. The thing about EuroMaidan is that while the leaders will no be good in any case, Yanukovich is just a former criminal, paid by Moscow. In this perspective, for a "Ukrainian Ukrainians" (West + Centre) (not Ukrainian Russians (East mostly)) any other president will be better, because while he can be bad, he will most likely sign contract with EU. EU has set terms to the contract, that require Ukraine to change some of their laws so that they are like in the more civilized parts of the world.
That's the norm everywhere. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-affluenza-texas-case-20131213,0,788818.story#axzz2r4BQwLOx
And i'm sorry, but i'm gonna assume you're a white christian, cause that can be the only reason to say anything is better than Yanukovich. Cause if i was a minority i'd be really really scared right now.
Although to be fair, UNA-UNSO discriminates in their very unique way, http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/chechnya-sl/conversations/topics/11422
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If there was a poll saying 77% people support Putin Yanukovich you'd say the poll is bullshit and all the media is bought.
So let's avoid double standards here and claim this poll is bullshit as well.
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EPT
