EPTAlso looking at the pro-maidan parties, you just can't possibly wish that they get any traction. UNA UNSO, Nationalists? These are the people that can only make things worse when in power.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 17
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1Dhalism
862 Posts
Also looking at the pro-maidan parties, you just can't possibly wish that they get any traction. UNA UNSO, Nationalists? These are the people that can only make things worse when in power. | ||
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Powerpill
United States1693 Posts
lol.. When he said that East Ukraine was formerly part of Poland, I was like "wtf, East? I must be really mixed up on my geography." I opened google maps and became more confused... should have finished reading the entire thread first I guess. | ||
KwarK
United States44190 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 20 2014 16:24 KwarK wrote: I was wondering how eastern Ukraine ended pro Polish but western pro Russia. Makes more sense if he just got them mixed up. What a fail by me, lmao. Hadn't even watched what did i type. | ||
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kalstrams
33 Posts
On January 20 2014 13:05 1Dhalism wrote: As an american those laws seem like the norm to me. To be fair i think a lot of eastern europeans view the west in a very unrealistic way. It's not the liberties that the west showers its citizens with it's opportunities to live a decent life. Also looking at the pro-maidan parties, you just can't possibly wish that they get any traction. UNA UNSO, Nationalists? These are the people that can only make things worse when in power. How about jurisdictional system not being separate from government ? I.e. you can not sue anything that is remotely close to government. For example (real case), regular worker-class guy gets 7 year sentence in prisons for a fight that resulted in minor injuries for a son of a local clerk in Ministry of Health (I'll not bother myself with proper abbreviation), while a guy from Ministry of Education (Same abbreviation comment) gets 2 year probation (only probation, no sentence) for killing another person. The thing about EuroMaidan is that while the leaders will no be good in any case, Yanukovich is just a former criminal, paid by Moscow. In this perspective, for a "Ukrainian Ukrainians" (West + Centre) (not Ukrainian Russians (East mostly)) any other president will be better, because while he can be bad, he will most likely sign contract with EU. EU has set terms to the contract, that require Ukraine to change some of their laws so that they are like in the more civilized parts of the world. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On January 20 2014 09:22 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Do you really think that Russia is totalitarian, lol? We have more fucking freedom than every European country probably or United States. :D I'm speaking about my country though because some of those laws are working here, except probably different punishment for public meetings, but it's very hard to actually fail the rules to be fined more than something like 15$. And we're not even close to Northern Korea for example or Cambodia when there was Pol Pot. Freedom is meaningless unless you define what kinds of freedoms you mean. Some of the common ways to describe freedoms are in terms of independence of the judicial system, the independence of the media, the political separation of power and increasingly the transparency of these institutions is becoming a measure. The Pussy Riot affair was a farce for the political and judicial system in Russia. Afterwards the Russian election coverage was described as a bunch of mad men fighting eachother on TV while Putin didn't participate in the debates, but got time to complain about the quality of his political opponents. That was a severe strike against the media in Russia and trustworthyness of the election-process. The bans on gay expressions was a small hit on top of the rest and the Greenpeace farce was even more water on the mill of a thoroughly politically subordinate judicial system. While every country has some problems in these areas and still has a lot of way to go before getting it right, Russia is far back in terms of independence of the judicial system. The way the media works in Russia is not too very independent either seen from the outside. I doubt transparency and political separation of power is that much better than other western counties, but I don't know. Totalitarian is a bit harsh of a term in these matters since it describes a system with no independence in the media or judicial system, no political separation of power and no transparency, but a well-working democracy, Russia is not. Edit: To swing it back on topic, the new Ukrainian laws are not on their surface that much of a problem But the way they were introduced through circumventing the normal procedures for no good reasons and the comments from the PoR representative are very bad signs of a move towards even less political separation of power than before. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 20 2014 13:05 1Dhalism wrote: As an american those laws seem like the norm to me. To be fair i think a lot of eastern europeans view the west in a very unrealistic way. It's not the liberties that the west showers its citizens with it's opportunities to live a decent life. WTF? Is it the norm in USA to need a passport to buy a simcard? Must be hard since half of americans don't have a passport. Is it the norm in USA that participation in protests leads to prison? Considering the american prediliction for protesting over minor land developments, I have to suspect not. Is it the norm in USA that media will be under the control of the government as they will now need to be granted licenses to operate? Are these laws which gives " opportunities to live a decent life"? And there is nothing unrealistic how eastern europeans view the west. they are either part of the west or right next to it. And one thing they do know is that even shitholes like Poland and Romania and Bugaria have higher freedoms and standard of living from association with and attempts to join the EU. | ||
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kalstrams
33 Posts
Elections were one of the most hilarious political events I have witnessed. Some election regions reported 146% of population voted. All president candidates were put there by Putin - an old joke, bunch of extremists and a "prominent candidate" that was ready to bail out for Putin. Pussy Riot was just a mess, on a similar level of what Russian Orthodox Church currently represents. One bishop killed a child on a road, and all CCTV footage from that date was deleted by hackers. Phunny. Russian media is completely dependant on the governing party. I know this for sure, I have friends working in the mass media in Russia. There is no transparency what so ever, and the separation of power is close to non-existent. Russia is not totalitarian, I'd say that it is unhealthy mix of democracy and post-totalitarian authoritarianism, because the governing body, as a whole, has not been change from USSR, if we look behind names. shitholes like Poland and Romania and Bugaria Calm your tits, man, this is going overboard. Also, their attempts were successful, and all three of them are fully-privileged member states of EU. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5837 Posts
On January 20 2014 16:24 KwarK wrote: I was wondering how eastern Ukraine ended pro Polish but western pro Russia. Makes more sense if he just got them mixed up. He did. But Western Ukraine being pro-Polish does not make any sense... On average, Eastern Ukraine is actually more friendly towards Poland. edit: @kalstrams You seem to make no difference between Russian Ukrainians (ethnic Russians - русские) and Russian-speaking Ukrainians (ethnic Ukrainians). | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On January 21 2014 05:18 maybenexttime wrote: He did. But Western Ukraine being pro-Polish does not make any sense... On average, Eastern Ukraine is actually more friendly towards Poland. It does make sense. Historically Western Ukraine had some really dark moments in it's relationships with Poland, but recent history, when both became independent from USSR, paints a much brighter picture. Polish State and it's people in general are very supportive of Ukrainians. They don't treat us in an imperialistic manner which Russia or Russians often show, i.e. looking down on Ukrainians as inferior and still denying our claim for independence as some kind of a silly idea that we've got. Of course there are numerous exceptions to the rule (Poles looking down on Ukrainians) and idiots on every side who would bring up old conflicts against everyone and make it an excuse for hatred. But if one looks at the recent history, the attitude towards Polish has been steadily improving. And Western Ukraine probably experienced the most striking change. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5837 Posts
On January 21 2014 06:06 Cheerio wrote: It does make sense. Historically Western Ukraine had some really dark moments in it's relationships with Poland, but recent history, when both became independent from USSR, paints a much brighter picture. Polish State and it's people in general are very supportive of Ukrainians (both the state and the people). They don't treat us in an imperialistic manner which Russia or Russians often show, i.e. looking down on Ukrainians as inferior and still denying our claim for independence as some kind of a silly idea that we've got. Of course there are numerous exceptions to the rule (Poles looking down on Ukrainians) and idiots on every side who would bring up old conflicts against everyone and make it an excuse for hatred. But if one looks at the recent history, the attitude towards Polish has been steadily improving. And Western Ukraine probably experienced the most striking change. Western Ukrainians still widely consider people like Bandera as national heroes (even though they also killed many Ukrainians who tried to oppose them), and UPA/OUN were more brutal than Germans... Local authorities of Lviv have been very busy removing signs of Polish presence in the city, rewriting its history (I read about that several years ago, maybe that changed, but I doubt that). Maybe Western Ukraine experienced a striking change, but it's easy to say when the change was from open hatered. I don't deny the change (although statues of butchers like Bandera are still a painful thorn for Poles), but I would still say that Eastern Ukrainians are more friendly towards Poles. This one thing I totally do not understand about Ukraine - parties like Svoboda and the Communist Party are still in mainstream politics, despite the fact that Stalin killed millions of people in the Holodomor and UPA/OUN killed thousands (I dunno the actual numbers) of Ukrainians who did not want to take part in their genocide. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 20 2014 23:58 radiatoren wrote: Freedom is meaningless unless you define what kinds of freedoms you mean. Some of the common ways to describe freedoms are in terms of independence of the judicial system, the independence of the media, the political separation of power and increasingly the transparency of these institutions is becoming a measure. The Pussy Riot affair was a farce for the political and judicial system in Russia. Afterwards the Russian election coverage was described as a bunch of mad men fighting eachother on TV while Putin didn't participate in the debates, but got time to complain about the quality of his political opponents. That was a severe strike against the media in Russia and trustworthyness of the election-process. The bans on gay expressions was a small hit on top of the rest and the Greenpeace farce was even more water on the mill of a thoroughly politically subordinate judicial system. Greenpeace was total farce i agree. Shit happens. While every country has some problems in these areas and still has a lot of way to go before getting it right, Russia is far back in terms of independence of the judicial system. The way the media works in Russia is not too very independent either seen from the outside. I doubt transparency and political separation of power is that much better than other western counties, but I don't know. Totalitarian is a bit harsh of a term in these matters since it describes a system with no independence in the media or judicial system, no political separation of power and no transparency, but a well-working democracy, Russia is not. Edit: To swing it back on topic, the new Ukrainian laws are not on their surface that much of a problem But the way they were introduced through circumventing the normal procedures for no good reasons and the comments from the PoR representative are very bad signs of a move towards even less political separation of power than before. To be honest, noone needs debates here because we have same candidates for being president for 20 years. Everyone knows who are those guys, what did they do and what can they do. It's just about people who don't wanna participate in elections and it's kinda sad. Pussy Riot is ridiculous thing to speak about. From one side, yes, it's fucking retarded to rush into church and sing there. From other side, it's ridiculous punishment for this. But it wasn't first trespass of Pussies in their life and they got freedom after last amnysty, so it's kinda balanced, let's say. Noone fucking banned gays here. It's just historically, that noone let them to have parade in Moscow, that's all. Noone will kill you if you're gay and there are even gay clubs here in Moscow afaik. But everyone thinks that Europe is too tolerant in this case. You don't have to make gays, lesbians and transgenders forbidden but doing everything to make them pleased is ridiculous as well. About media. Before 2009-10, basically, almost every big media supported current government. But then, president Medvedev made everything and helped to make Rain channel, which is basically totally opposite. So, if you really needs both points of views for example you can easy open internet and watch TVRain. Or just check twitter. But noone interested in it, because as i said above, even in Moscow, less than 40% of residents came to last elections. It's sad when people don't want to do anything except whining about their "bad" life and other stuff. I'm saying it just because it's sad when everyone in the world hates Russia only because they "heard" some stuff and it's mainstream nowdays. About Ukraine, i will say once more. I hope, they will find their way to not be divided, to be solid, unite and they will have nice and clear elections in 2015. Not like it was in 2004 when US changed Ukranian history, but by their own. Here, in Moscow everyone wants you to find your way. European Union, Customs Union or being independent big country in Europe - choose. And make peace, fuck war. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On January 21 2014 10:37 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Not like it was in 2004 when US changed Ukranian history, but by their own. I and many other people from this thread, relying on the western mass media for information, are clearly ignorant of such a drastic influence. You must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a statement. Care to give us some facts? | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote: WTF? Is it the norm in USA to need a passport to buy a simcard? Must be hard since half of americans don't have a passport. Is it the norm in USA that participation in protests leads to prison? Considering the american prediliction for protesting over minor land developments, I have to suspect not. Is it the norm in USA that media will be under the control of the government as they will now need to be granted licenses to operate? Are these laws which gives " opportunities to live a decent life"? And there is nothing unrealistic how eastern europeans view the west. they are either part of the west or right next to it. And one thing they do know is that even shitholes like Poland and Romania and Bugaria have higher freedoms and standard of living from association with and attempts to join the EU. I have to seriously disagree with you here. Needing a passport to buy a simcard is a bit crazy, but considering most people in the states need some form of identification, and since no one carries around a birth certificate, most people have identification in the form of a driver's license. Second of all protests do tend to lead to prison, for a protest to be legal, it has to recieve permission from the city council and mayor's office of the city, otherwise the protestors can be sent to jail. Third of all, the media is controlled by the wealthy in some cases, and in the case of NPR the state does control that media. While it isn't anything compared to Russia, that doesn't mean that it is somehow immaculate and only truth seeking. Finally much of world does view American life unrealistically, they see what we export, not what we do on a day to day basis in many cases. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4768 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote: And one thing they do know is that even shitholes like Poland and Romania and Bugaria have higher freedoms and standard of living from association with and attempts to join the EU. I dont appreciate You calling my country shithole. It has many flaws, but that word is unnecessary. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4768 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote: And one thing they do know is that even shitholes like Poland and Romania and Bulgaria have higher freedoms and standard of living from association with and attempts to join the EU. That's actually not true. I don't know about Poland and Romania, but entanglement with the EU has had a largely negative effect on the quality of life for the common citizen of over here... | ||
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