On January 20 2014 13:05 1Dhalism wrote: As an american those laws seem like the norm to me. To be fair i think a lot of eastern europeans view the west in a very unrealistic way. It's not the liberties that the west showers its citizens with it's opportunities to live a decent life.
Also looking at the pro-maidan parties, you just can't possibly wish that they get any traction. UNA UNSO, Nationalists? These are the people that can only make things worse when in power.
How about jurisdictional system not being separate from government ? I.e. you can not sue anything that is remotely close to government. For example (real case), regular worker-class guy gets 7 year sentence in prisons for a fight that resulted in minor injuries for a son of a local clerk in Ministry of Health (I'll not bother myself with proper abbreviation), while a guy from Ministry of Education (Same abbreviation comment) gets 2 year probation (only probation, no sentence) for killing another person.
The thing about EuroMaidan is that while the leaders will no be good in any case, Yanukovich is just a former criminal, paid by Moscow. In this perspective, for a "Ukrainian Ukrainians" (West + Centre) (not Ukrainian Russians (East mostly)) any other president will be better, because while he can be bad, he will most likely sign contract with EU. EU has set terms to the contract, that require Ukraine to change some of their laws so that they are like in the more civilized parts of the world.
And i'm sorry, but i'm gonna assume you're a white christian, cause that can be the only reason to say anything is better than Yanukovich. Cause if i was a minority i'd be really really scared right now.
I'm also sorry but what race and religion has to do with anything? Are you somehow implying that Yanukovich is a better choice for the minorities because if opposition comes to power they would get oppressed?
I strongly believe that the reason is the shock therapy. Many countries went from being some of the poorest countries in the world to being leading world economies in a matter of decades (e.g. South Korea was on level the poorest African countries), and they started from a much worse level than Poland.
Where did I say the transition could've been painless? What Korea, Japan, Singapore, Finland, the USA, and so on experienced was hardly painless. The point is, it's much more reasonable to put all that effort into building your own industry/capital than into building some other countries' industry/capital, don't you think? And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
I think you should look at more than just GDP per capita (and when you compare Poland with countries I've mentioned, it's also a bleak picture). Purchasing power, wage share in GDP, the rate at which salaries rise, or how much of the profits are transfered out of the country/how much taxes companies actually pay. On average, companies based on country's local capital are less likely to evade taxes/transfer profit outside the country. Did you know that out of all major trading companies operating in Poland - and there are many of them: Tesco, Lidl, H&M, to name a few - only a single one is actually paying taxes here (Biedronka, owned by Portuguese capital; the rest major companies are also owned by foreign capital)? All other are evading them in one way or another.
If our politicians were not as corrupt, we could've been on par with Korea or such, with our own automotive industry instead of Volkswagen assembly lines, with our engineerings making their own designs instead of applying small tweaks to German designs. With those 2 million people (lowest estimate of people who have emigrated from Poland since we've joined the EU; the highest are talking about 5 million) working for our GDP and our pension system.
KIEV, Ukraine — As demonstrators in ski masks scuffled with the police here on Tuesday evening, opposition leaders accused the government of provoking the very violence it has been condemning in an effort to discredit and possibly split the protest movement.
“We see a radicalization of the opposition. We see the escalation of the conflict, but we hear the government speak of the street,” said Irina V. Gerashchenko, a member of Parliament with the Udar Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform. “This is very dangerous. The government should speak of the country, should speak of its citizens and civil society.”
Opposition leaders say the government of President Viktor F. Yanukovich has rebuffed all offers of negotiations, further fueling a dangerously volatile situation.[...]
The government’s opponents pointed to three recent actions by the government that they said were intended to incite the more radical protesters and sow doubt in the minds of the moderates: new laws passed last week circumscribing the right for public assembly; the blocking of a protest march on a side street; and on Tuesday, sending cellphone messages to people standing in the vicinity of the fighting saying, “Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: almost every big business up till 2005 had been owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: If our politicians were not as corrupt, we could've been on par with Korea or such, with our own automotive industry instead of Volkswagen assembly lines, with our engineerings making their own designs instead of applying small tweaks to German designs. With those 2 million people (lowest estimate of people who have emigrated from Poland since we've joined the EU; the highest are talking about 5 million) working for our GDP and our pension system.
so now you are saying that corrupt politicians are to blame. Does that mean that you don't hold grunges against EU anymore, or that you do, and Poland would have been even better than Korea if not for EU involvement?
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: almost every big business up till 2005 had been owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: If our politicians were not as corrupt, we could've been on par with Korea or such, with our own automotive industry instead of Volkswagen assembly lines, with our engineerings making their own designs instead of applying small tweaks to German designs. With those 2 million people (lowest estimate of people who have emigrated from Poland since we've joined the EU; the highest are talking about 5 million) working for our GDP and our pension system.
so now you are saying that corrupt politicians are to blame. Does that mean that you don't hold grunges against EU anymore, or that you do, and Poland would have been even better than Korea if not for EU involvement?
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
edit:
Again, where did I attribute the current situation of Poland to the EU? Stop using idiotic straw men, please. I only said that the alleged benefit we have from joining is severely overestimated because nearly all of it goes back to Western countries anyway, which is a fact.
I attribute Poland's main problems to the disaster that was our transition from planned economy to nearly completely open market, which resulted in roughly 90% of our banking, trade and industry being owned by foreign capital.
Has anyone seen the White-Ra video? Here is the footage of him explaining his perspective to the camera in English as explosions go off behind him.
STRATFOR is a think-tank organization that analyzes the significance of geopolitical situations around the world. In addition to White-Ra, I also subscribe to STRATFOR on Youtube, whose most recent video as of this writing explains the reasons for the political unrest from an American think-tank perspective. I did know about Ukraine's strategic relationship with Russia being a factor in causing the current sitting government to not sign the EU deal, but I did not know about other political factors within the country that would dissuade the current incumbent's government from signing the deal. STRATFOR also explains that the Ukrainian security forces have recently been authorized to use "non-lethal and lethal force" in quashing protests, which may destabilize the situation further if more people are killed as a result of this decision. Here is the STRATFOR video in question.
What do you guys think? EDIT: Add to the OP maybe? It has some good background info.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: pretty much every big business up till 2005 was owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
Your examples are just hilarious. The technological progress has just exploded in the last 50 years. The complexity of the production processes allowed for replication and relatively easy recreation at that time. Right now to recreate something new you can't just start form scratch, you need technologies, facilities, specialists. Hell, even 20 years ago it was far more easier than now. So your examples of how countries built up prosperity before opening up their economies are all but worthless. And if you want a fine modern example of a country building up prosperity by totally closing down - North Korea.
On January 22 2014 05:04 Cheerio wrote: I don't have a link the the poll itself, just news about it.
2010 respondents. That is pretty accurate poll on such topic, sure.
On January 22 2014 05:29 1Dhalism wrote: And i'm sorry, but i'm gonna assume you're a white christian, cause that can be the only reason to say anything is better than Yanukovich. Cause if i was a minority i'd be really really scared right now.
I will assume that you completely lack information on people in Ukraine and their mentality. As well as that, I find your comment both racist and offensive to Ukrainian people.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: pretty much every big business up till 2005 was owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
Your examples are just hilarious. The technological progress has just exploded in the last 50 years. The complexity of the production processes allowed for replication and relatively easy recreation at that time. Right now to recreate something new you can't just start form scratch, you need technologies, facilities, specialists. Hell, even 20 years ago it was far more easier than now. So your examples of how countries built up prosperity before opening up their economies are all but worthless. And if you want a fine modern example of a country building up prosperity by totally closing down - North Korea.
nope, all you need is money then just buy all the other crap. if you borrow money you become a slave and if you try to get/make money of your lands resources, you need your own currency. now, choose the lesser evil ...
I dont know much about the entire issue, but I think its good that Ukranians are standing up for what they think is right, even if they have to resort to riot tactics
On January 21 2014 23:56 Nikon wrote: What the fuck is your problem?
On January 21 2014 23:57 mdb wrote: lol
Apparently I hit a nerve. lol.
Yes, personal attacks usually do that. lol.
Personal_Attacks_ ?_? What personal attacks are you talking about?
Well you basically just called them corrupt pieces of shit who are living of our money. I can imagine that they don't like that.
Also, please, voting politicians out of office? Isn't everybody in western Europe currently complaining that all politicians are shit, don't listen to us and that there are no alternatives? Ever thought that the same, but even worse, might be happening there too?
I called their politicians corrupt pieces of shit. Though that's, at least to some degree, true for about every country in the world ~ I never called >them< anything. And yes, if you don't like voting stupid politicians out of office then found your own party and/or become a politician. Apart from that there hardly is any alternative now, is there?
You said, and I quote "Change that fucking mentality of 'corruption is ok'." I think you actually meant the citizens there. Or at least that's the way it looked like to me.
And how do you think starting a political party in a corrupt system will work?
I see you are quite the optimist. If you don't start fighting for your voice to be heard, you lose it. Apathy is the exact opposite democracy is about. Meet like minded people, organize, hell I don't know. But if shit is that bad and your best point is that some external force is to blame for everything - things won't change on their own.
Well, they can always find a like minded people and leave EU. Let's see how would that work. Customs tax, passports and visas to enter any country to the west for starters. I wonder what the outrage would be. The problem is, there are people in every country that think they are fucking entitled to things without giving something in return and all they do is blame outside forces for their misery. The thing is that EU is not a fucking gold egg laying goose or a cow to be guzzled endlessly without giving it something in return. If someone does not like his life, he should do something about it, not cry blaming everyone but himself for his poor situation.
Lack of visas/passport for traveling around Europe has little to do with joining the EU - it's Schengen Area. Customs tax can be a good thing, nearly all developed/wealthy countries used it extensively to get rich: the USA, the UK, Finland, South Korea, Singapore, Germany, France, and so on, and so on. Completely opening your economy to much stronger ones is a recipe for disaster...
On January 22 2014 01:19 Nikon wrote: I'm speechless... perhaps you people should come live here for a while and actually find out what the situation is before spouting pre-canned bullshit.
And perhaps you should spend just a single hour researching where your problems actually come from before you decide to blame the organisation that has transferred literally billions of our money to you in the last years.
I am sorry if what was expressed here offends you personally, the ignorance and absurd list of points you posted earlier offends me and quite a few others just as much.
I dunno about Bulgaria, but roughly 80% of the money Poland gets from the EU (not sure whether it's the money we get reduced by the amount we pay to the EU or just the money we get, meaning we have to pay our share on top of that; would have to read about that again) goes back to Western European countries (mainly Germany). That's because the whole thing was set up in such a way that companies from countries with weak economy/industry cannot meet the requirements of the investments as defined by the EU. As a result, the latter, if they even participate, are usually at the bottom of the food chain.
Today I learned that Germans are still evil. In 1939 they invaded us with army, now they are invading Poland with construction machines and building the infrastructure for us. Did you seriously expect that western countries are charity organizations?
I would like you to picture me your vision of Poland after 1989. I want to know exactly what would you do. You seem to have found recipe for Poland's problems. Please share it in details. Perhaps it can be of use to other countries too. Just to make it clear, I do not want to hear what was done wrong, I would like to know how it should be done to be done properly.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: pretty much every big business up till 2005 was owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
Your examples are just hilarious. The technological progress has just exploded in the last 50 years. The complexity of the production processes allowed for replication and relatively easy recreation at that time. Right now to recreate something new you can't just start form scratch, you need technologies, facilities, specialists. Hell, even 20 years ago it was far more easier than now. So your examples of how countries built up prosperity before opening up their economies are all but worthless. And if you want a fine modern example of a country building up prosperity by totally closing down - North Korea.
nope, all you need money then just buy all the other crap. if you borrow money you become a slave and if you try to get/make money of your lands resources, you need your own currency. now, choose the lesser evil ...
it's like arguing against an education loan because you would become a slave. Clearly earning a fortune at some unskilled job and then using the money to enslave somebody is a better choice.
Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine's Prime Minister Mykola Azarov warned on Tuesday that the security forces could use force to disperse protests after two nights of clashes that left hundreds wounded.
Azarov told Russian television that if "provocateurs" did not stop, the authorities could act under controversial new laws that essentially ban large protests in Ukraine.
His comments came as influential news site Dzerkalo Tyzhnia said that the authorities had already worked out a precise plan to regain control of the site of the intense clashes between protesters and the security forces.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warned the situation in Ukraine was spiralling out of control after two months of protests over President Viktor Yanukovych's failure to sign a deal with the European Union.
The clashes raged in the centre of the Ukrainian capital until early morning Tuesday, with demonstrators flinging Molotov cocktails and stones at security forces who hit back with stun grenades, rubber bullets and tear gas.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: pretty much every big business up till 2005 was owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
Your examples are just hilarious. The technological progress has just exploded in the last 50 years. The complexity of the production processes allowed for replication and relatively easy recreation at that time. Right now to recreate something new you can't just start form scratch, you need technologies, facilities, specialists. Hell, even 20 years ago it was far more easier than now. So your examples of how countries built up prosperity before opening up their economies are all but worthless. And if you want a fine modern example of a country building up prosperity by totally closing down - North Korea.
nope, all you need money then just buy all the other crap. if you borrow money you become a slave and if you try to get/make money of your lands resources, you need your own currency. now, choose the lesser evil ...
it's like arguing against an education loan because you would become a slave. Clearly earning a fortune at some unskilled job and then using the money to enslave somebody is a better choice.
bad analogies are ... bad. a loan comes with interest. your slave status depends on the interest, not on the loan itself (because even your children will have to pay it). you will get more loans based on your ability to pay the interest, not pay back the loan. loaners do not care if you have 7655452937854274 money taken in loans, when they see you being able to pay more interest, they'll just loan you more money; and those are printed, worthless money anyway.
if Ukraine enters EU, it'll change/replace the oligarchs with westerns banks/corporations and your perceived increase in living standards will come from the debt you acquire. you borrow life standards and sell the future of your children.
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: pretty much every big business up till 2005 was owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
Your examples are just hilarious. The technological progress has just exploded in the last 50 years. The complexity of the production processes allowed for replication and relatively easy recreation at that time. Right now to recreate something new you can't just start form scratch, you need technologies, facilities, specialists. Hell, even 20 years ago it was far more easier than now. So your examples of how countries built up prosperity before opening up their economies are all but worthless. And if you want a fine modern example of a country building up prosperity by totally closing down - North Korea.
nope, all you need money then just buy all the other crap. if you borrow money you become a slave and if you try to get/make money of your lands resources, you need your own currency. now, choose the lesser evil ...
it's like arguing against an education loan because you would become a slave. Clearly earning a fortune at some unskilled job and then using the money to enslave somebody is a better choice.
bad analogies are ... bad. a loan comes with interest. your slave status depends on the interest, not on the loan itself (because even your children will have to pay it). you will get more loans based on your ability to pay the interest, not pay back the loan. loaners do not care if you have 7655452937854274 money taken in loans, when they see you being able to pay more interest, they'll just loan you more money; and those are printed, worthless money anyway.
if Ukraine enters EU, it'll change/replace the oligarchs with westerns banks/corporations and your perceived increase in living standards will come from the debt you acquire. you borrow life standards and sell the future of your children.
As far as I know people still have free willl. Taking up loans is voluntary as long as you can pay the interests. The only real slavery that can occur is when the interests are unpayable, but most countries have some legislation against exploiting serfdom (bankrupcy-laws in particular).
On January 22 2014 05:49 maybenexttime wrote: And I'm pretty sure for Ukraine the equivalent of Western investment was Russian investment.
No, it wasn't equivalent. I'll repeat myself: pretty much every big business up till 2005 was owned by Ukrainian oligarchical groups. The Polish-Ukrainian example proves your theory totally wrong.
Does it? How many of the wealthiest countries in the world built their prosperity by opening completely when they were in no way competitive compared with countries with already strong economy? I don't think I know any. How many built their wealth by protecting their market from outside influence until they become competitive? There are heaps of them.
One counter-example does not disprove the general trend. I never said that building your own industry may never go wrong. my point is that being an economic colony will only get you so far.
Your examples are just hilarious. The technological progress has just exploded in the last 50 years. The complexity of the production processes allowed for replication and relatively easy recreation at that time. Right now to recreate something new you can't just start form scratch, you need technologies, facilities, specialists. Hell, even 20 years ago it was far more easier than now. So your examples of how countries built up prosperity before opening up their economies are all but worthless. And if you want a fine modern example of a country building up prosperity by totally closing down - North Korea.
nope, all you need money then just buy all the other crap. if you borrow money you become a slave and if you try to get/make money of your lands resources, you need your own currency. now, choose the lesser evil ...
it's like arguing against an education loan because you would become a slave. Clearly earning a fortune at some unskilled job and then using the money to enslave somebody is a better choice.
bad analogies are ... bad. a loan comes with interest. your slave status depends on the interest, not on the loan itself (because even your children will have to pay it). you will get more loans based on your ability to pay the interest, not pay back the loan. loaners do not care if you have 7655452937854274 money taken in loans, when they see you being able to pay more interest, they'll just loan you more money; and those are printed, worthless money anyway.
if Ukraine enters EU, it'll change/replace the oligarchs with westerns banks/corporations and your perceived increase in living standards will come from the debt you acquire. you borrow life standards and sell the future of your children.
you should read about Greece and how some of it's debts are being written off. This is an investment disaster. Clearly "enslaving" a country is not that profitable.
Two bodies near Kyiv were found with the signs of torture. On a related event Igor Lutsenko (Maidan activist and journalist) was found after he had been kidnapped one day ago from the hospital where he had brought an injured man from Hrushevskogo street. He claimed he had been kidnapped along with the man he had brought to the hospital by a group of around 10 men who were presumably from the Eastern Ukraine. They were using "mild" tortures against him, but the other man had less luck since he was actually from the Western Ukraine (he is still missing). The kidnappers wanted to find out who was financing the Maidan forces and what their plans had been. After they had failed to find the answers and had confirmed Igor Lutsenko's identity they let him go. He is still in the hospital.
Cheerio, I've heard that Berkut has begun counter-attack, but I could not find any information that I would consider verified on that matter ? Can you comment on that ?
EPT![[image loading]](http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/01/22/world/UKRAINE/UKRAINE-articleLarge.jpg)
