On February 17 2013 01:39 KwarK wrote: One thing that troubles me about these incidents when it turned out the guy was no threat but the policeman decided he needed to take action to prevent a possible danger to himself is that that seems like a really shitty tradeoff. Clearly someone has taught police officers that if they feel there is a genuine danger to themselves then they can take whatever action they deem necessary to neutralise the threat. But when you look at it in terms of the possible negative outcome from getting it wrong, either a police officer getting killed by some criminal or an innocent member of the public getting killed by a police officer, the latter seems far worse to me. I'm not in favour of policemen dying, I think that's bad, but I also think it's a risk of their job, it's a risk they and their families get compensated for and it's an unfortunate aspect of public service. Whereas the latter, an agent of the state killing a member of the public who had done nothing wrong, is a far more serious issue. The mentality in which the police officer first defends himself against any perceived threat from a member of the public and marginalises the rights of the individual seems backwards and is indicative of a wider problem with police and their relationship with the public.
I had an earlier reply to you regarding judgment calls, but its a good thing you detailed out your opinion so that we can argue on specific terms.
But before that, let me make it clear that I am against use of lethal force against petty crimes and pedestrian incidents, specifically this one.
But, unlike the scenario that you picture this out to be, the law enforcement is not there to see what is the best situation that could arise from a given scenario. Crime, by definition, even "ongoing" or "perceived danger" ones, operate on time, and judgment call must be made. A police officer does not think, "Oh is it better that I let him get away so no one gets hurt". They are trained to respond to "perceived" danger. Some or most fail at this judgment, and this is another thread altogether. But it is wrong to think of the situation as the welfare of the citizen vs. the cop. Crime is crime no matter what to a cop, and he has constitutional rights to implement in the function of his duty. (But as I say, there are, as in this case obviously, wrong implementation of this.)
EDIT: And it is definitely wrong to think that dying or being in harms way is part of the police officers job. A police officer is there to ensure peace and order according to the law. Getting shot is a likely if unwanted result, but it should never be normalized. A police officer does not deserve to get such in the same manner that any law abiding citizen also doesnt.
I'm not saying a police officer deserves to get shot. I'm saying they accept the potential for them to get shot in the line of duty as a part of doing their job.
Imagine the parallel of a fireman showing up at a burning house that potentially had people inside. The house is a low risk but fire is unpredictable and it may collapse and block his exit if he checks for people even though 99% of the time he'd be fine. If he turns around and says "I'm not going in there, fire is dangerous" then he's not doing his job because his duty is to take that 1% risk to save the people. Similarly, if a police officer thinks there is a low possibility the guy is about the draw a gun on him and takes the shot then he is failing in his duty to protect the public by refusing to place himself in harms way. Policemen don't deserve to get shot and firemen don't deserve to get burnt but both have a duty to accept reasonable levels of personal risk in public service, that's their job.
On February 17 2013 00:39 Bleak wrote: Well as much as people like to bash USA, I think policemen everywhere are pretty much the same. Most of them can be quite cruel. When you give a group of people a gun and permission to use force, you can't expect every one of them to stop and think the consequences of their actions before using that force.
Indeed, and the ones we know about, are the ones that fucked up.
Still cant imagine the cop being released in this country after what he did..
On February 17 2013 00:45 openbox1 wrote: Cop kind of went overboard, especially with the two shots when he's down. Not to say the cop shouldn't lose his badge or even go to prison depending on the circumstances, but before we shed too many tears for the victim, I wonder if they can release some pertinent info on him. If he's some convicted armed robber, repeat rapist, serial offender etc... well in the parlance of the old LAPD: "NHI"
how does his past history in any way change whether what the cop did was right or wrong?
Hm...seems the cop just did not want to move his own ass faster than normal. How did they explain, that the gun was never found when he claimed the suspect was armed? Was the judge some kind of alcoholic delusional?
Reminded me of a south Park Episode. Ignore the patriot act stuff. + Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 01:50 fartosis77 wrote: get compensated? don't know about cops in britain but they sure as hell aren't compensated enough for risking their lives in the netherlands brosan the killshot was over the top but this shooting is more than justified in my opinion.
Is being a police officer a particularly dangerous job in the Netherlands? Few die in the line of duty over here.
Britain is a really bad comparison, since a british cop would not of been armed.
According to wikipedia 16 british cops have died in the last 10 years (on duty), or about 1.6 per year. The USA is at around 156 per year. With the US having around 5 times the population, cops are around 20 times more likely to die in the USA than in the UK. I do not think you can expected American police to risk their lives in the way ours do because American police are much more likely to die when they do so.
The solution to this is not to take fewer chances with the lives of police officers by being more reckless with the lives of potentially innocent suspects.
On February 17 2013 01:39 KwarK wrote: One thing that troubles me about these incidents when it turned out the guy was no threat but the policeman decided he needed to take action to prevent a possible danger to himself is that that seems like a really shitty tradeoff. Clearly someone has taught police officers that if they feel there is a genuine danger to themselves then they can take whatever action they deem necessary to neutralise the threat. But when you look at it in terms of the possible negative outcome from getting it wrong, either a police officer getting killed by some criminal or an innocent member of the public getting killed by a police officer, the latter seems far worse to me. I'm not in favour of policemen dying, I think that's bad, but I also think it's a risk of their job, it's a risk they and their families get compensated for and it's an unfortunate aspect of public service. Whereas the latter, an agent of the state killing a member of the public who had done nothing wrong, is a far more serious issue. The mentality in which the police officer first defends himself against any perceived threat from a member of the public and marginalises the rights of the individual seems backwards and is indicative of a wider problem with police and their relationship with the public.
This isn't a nice area of the country where the cops know your name and care for the citizens on a case by case basis. Its the middle of one of the most gang war torn parts of america. The guy in the youtube can probably name off 5 friends to you that have been killed in the same exact spot he was in and he didn't want to die the same way. We can't judge all cops the same because its wrong and its not fair. My dad got paid $45 an hour in a city that see's a murder every 20 years and he never had to even shoot his gun on duty. These guys are lucky to get paid $15 an hour and get to go home without seeing someone get shot for some stupid reason or another. You think that anyone is going to take a job where they have a strong likelihoods of being killed for $15 an hour? This weird Idealism about the police and their relationship with the public is nice but it has no grounding in reality.
He thought that the guy might have a gun in his wast ban and was reaching for it and decided to shoot first and not take the risk. you can line up 100 other cops and they'll make the same decision over and over again in his situation. The problem with the situation is that the LA can't afford a better police department because of the problems that the city faces with a bad police department. The only way that the city is going to get better is if there is federal intervention to fix the problem.
I'm not even defending them, everyone knows that the LAPD sucks but no one has a serious solution to make the problem any better. Kicking a dog doesn't help anyone.
So is this even the LAPD? One of the sources says that it is the Sheriffs Office and not the LAPD?
"Johnathan Cuevas, 20
Died Oct. 10, 2010
Johnathan Cuevas, a 20-year-old Latino, was killed by a sheriff's deputy Sunday, Oct. 10, near Long Beach Boulevard and Josephine Street in Lynwood, according to Los Angeles County coroner's records.
The incident occurred about 12:30 a.m. when a lone deputy approached three men. One of the men, later identified by the coroner's office as Johnathan Cuevas, allegedly reached into his waistband as he started to run. Seeing this, the deputy fired several times, striking Cuevas, said Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Deputy Luis Castro.
Cuevas was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. A handgun was recovered at the scene, Castro said.
On February 17 2013 01:39 KwarK wrote: One thing that troubles me about these incidents when it turned out the guy was no threat but the policeman decided he needed to take action to prevent a possible danger to himself is that that seems like a really shitty tradeoff. Clearly someone has taught police officers that if they feel there is a genuine danger to themselves then they can take whatever action they deem necessary to neutralise the threat. But when you look at it in terms of the possible negative outcome from getting it wrong, either a police officer getting killed by some criminal or an innocent member of the public getting killed by a police officer, the latter seems far worse to me. I'm not in favour of policemen dying, I think that's bad, but I also think it's a risk of their job, it's a risk they and their families get compensated for and it's an unfortunate aspect of public service. Whereas the latter, an agent of the state killing a member of the public who had done nothing wrong, is a far more serious issue. The mentality in which the police officer first defends himself against any perceived threat from a member of the public and marginalises the rights of the individual seems backwards and is indicative of a wider problem with police and their relationship with the public.
I had an earlier reply to you regarding judgment calls, but its a good thing you detailed out your opinion so that we can argue on specific terms.
But before that, let me make it clear that I am against use of lethal force against petty crimes and pedestrian incidents, specifically this one.
But, unlike the scenario that you picture this out to be, the law enforcement is not there to see what is the best situation that could arise from a given scenario. Crime, by definition, even "ongoing" or "perceived danger" ones, operate on time, and judgment call must be made. A police officer does not think, "Oh is it better that I let him get away so no one gets hurt". They are trained to respond to "perceived" danger. Some or most fail at this judgment, and this is another thread altogether. But it is wrong to think of the situation as the welfare of the citizen vs. the cop. Crime is crime no matter what to a cop, and he has constitutional rights to implement in the function of his duty. (But as I say, there are, as in this case obviously, wrong implementation of this.)
EDIT: And it is definitely wrong to think that dying or being in harms way is part of the police officers job. A police officer is there to ensure peace and order according to the law. Getting shot is a likely if unwanted result, but it should never be normalized. A police officer does not deserve to get such in the same manner that any law abiding citizen also doesnt.
I'm not saying a police officer deserves to get shot. I'm saying they accept the potential for them to get shot in the line of duty as a part of doing their job.
Imagine the parallel of a fireman showing up at a burning house that potentially had people inside. The house is a low risk but fire is unpredictable and it may collapse and block his exit if he checks for people even though 99% of the time he'd be fine. If he turns around and says "I'm not going in there, fire is dangerous" then he's not doing his job because his duty is to take that 1% risk to save the people. Similarly, if a police officer thinks there is a low possibility the guy is about the draw a gun on him and takes the shot then he is failing in his duty to protect the public by refusing to place himself in harms way. Policemen don't deserve to get shot and firemen don't deserve to get burnt but both have a duty to accept reasonable levels of personal risk in public service, that's their job.
As far as I know the law, firemen are not obliged by their job description to save live NO MATTER WHAT. They use judgment at well. IF they risk that 1% for the opportunity to save lives, that's going outside the call of duty, and is thus labelled a heroic act. In a similar manner, the police officers are not required to die or be shot at in the line of duty, whether or not it happens. Add to this the nature of crime and police work, then you see why survival instinct is the strongest factor in most cases.
On February 17 2013 01:39 KwarK wrote: One thing that troubles me about these incidents when it turned out the guy was no threat but the policeman decided he needed to take action to prevent a possible danger to himself is that that seems like a really shitty tradeoff. Clearly someone has taught police officers that if they feel there is a genuine danger to themselves then they can take whatever action they deem necessary to neutralise the threat. But when you look at it in terms of the possible negative outcome from getting it wrong, either a police officer getting killed by some criminal or an innocent member of the public getting killed by a police officer, the latter seems far worse to me. I'm not in favour of policemen dying, I think that's bad, but I also think it's a risk of their job, it's a risk they and their families get compensated for and it's an unfortunate aspect of public service. Whereas the latter, an agent of the state killing a member of the public who had done nothing wrong, is a far more serious issue. The mentality in which the police officer first defends himself against any perceived threat from a member of the public and marginalises the rights of the individual seems backwards and is indicative of a wider problem with police and their relationship with the public.
You think that anyone is going to take a job where they have a strong likelihoods of being killed for $15 an hour? This weird Idealism about the police and their relationship with the public is nice but it has no grounding in reality.
In a capitalist system you can have two outcomes from a shitty underpaid job which nobody wants. You can either keep the job demanding and when you run into recruitment problems you can slowly up the pay and benefits until you find the free market equilibrium in which the people feel they are being adequately rewarded for the demands of the job. or You can lower the workload and difficulty of the job until the quality of the product is so bad that it becomes something someone whose labour is only worth $15/hr will accept.
You have claimed that the latter is the case and the problem is something intrinsically wrong with capitalism. This isn't the case. The problem happened when someone thought a good way to save money on the police budget was to hire morons, not to train them and give them liberty to fuck with the public without repercussions.
On February 17 2013 01:39 KwarK wrote: One thing that troubles me about these incidents when it turned out the guy was no threat but the policeman decided he needed to take action to prevent a possible danger to himself is that that seems like a really shitty tradeoff. Clearly someone has taught police officers that if they feel there is a genuine danger to themselves then they can take whatever action they deem necessary to neutralise the threat. But when you look at it in terms of the possible negative outcome from getting it wrong, either a police officer getting killed by some criminal or an innocent member of the public getting killed by a police officer, the latter seems far worse to me. I'm not in favour of policemen dying, I think that's bad, but I also think it's a risk of their job, it's a risk they and their families get compensated for and it's an unfortunate aspect of public service. Whereas the latter, an agent of the state killing a member of the public who had done nothing wrong, is a far more serious issue. The mentality in which the police officer first defends himself against any perceived threat from a member of the public and marginalises the rights of the individual seems backwards and is indicative of a wider problem with police and their relationship with the public.
I had an earlier reply to you regarding judgment calls, but its a good thing you detailed out your opinion so that we can argue on specific terms.
But before that, let me make it clear that I am against use of lethal force against petty crimes and pedestrian incidents, specifically this one.
But, unlike the scenario that you picture this out to be, the law enforcement is not there to see what is the best situation that could arise from a given scenario. Crime, by definition, even "ongoing" or "perceived danger" ones, operate on time, and judgment call must be made. A police officer does not think, "Oh is it better that I let him get away so no one gets hurt". They are trained to respond to "perceived" danger. Some or most fail at this judgment, and this is another thread altogether. But it is wrong to think of the situation as the welfare of the citizen vs. the cop. Crime is crime no matter what to a cop, and he has constitutional rights to implement in the function of his duty. (But as I say, there are, as in this case obviously, wrong implementation of this.)
EDIT: And it is definitely wrong to think that dying or being in harms way is part of the police officers job. A police officer is there to ensure peace and order according to the law. Getting shot is a likely if unwanted result, but it should never be normalized. A police officer does not deserve to get such in the same manner that any law abiding citizen also doesnt.
I'm not saying a police officer deserves to get shot. I'm saying they accept the potential for them to get shot in the line of duty as a part of doing their job.
Imagine the parallel of a fireman showing up at a burning house that potentially had people inside. The house is a low risk but fire is unpredictable and it may collapse and block his exit if he checks for people even though 99% of the time he'd be fine. If he turns around and says "I'm not going in there, fire is dangerous" then he's not doing his job because his duty is to take that 1% risk to save the people. Similarly, if a police officer thinks there is a low possibility the guy is about the draw a gun on him and takes the shot then he is failing in his duty to protect the public by refusing to place himself in harms way. Policemen don't deserve to get shot and firemen don't deserve to get burnt but both have a duty to accept reasonable levels of personal risk in public service, that's their job.
As far as I know the law, firemen are not obliged by their job description to save live NO MATTER WHAT. They use judgment at well. IF they risk that 1% for the opportunity to save lives, that's going outside the call of duty, and is thus labelled a heroic act. In a similar manner, the police officers are not required to die or be shot at in the line of duty, whether or not it happens. Add to this the nature of crime and police work, then you see why survival instinct is the strongest factor in most cases.
A fireman who never shows up to work is a fireman who is simply choosing not to risk his life. Fighting fires is dangerous. He'll still get fired (no pun intended) though. He is professionally required to accept a degree of risk.
On February 17 2013 02:20 Eben wrote: So is this even the LAPD? One of the sources says that it is the Sheriffs Office and not the LAPD?
"Johnathan Cuevas, 20
Died Oct. 10, 2010
Johnathan Cuevas, a 20-year-old Latino, was killed by a sheriff's deputy Sunday, Oct. 10, near Long Beach Boulevard and Josephine Street in Lynwood, according to Los Angeles County coroner's records.
The incident occurred about 12:30 a.m. when a lone deputy approached three men. One of the men, later identified by the coroner's office as Johnathan Cuevas, allegedly reached into his waistband as he started to run. Seeing this, the deputy fired several times, striking Cuevas, said Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Deputy Luis Castro.
Cuevas was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. A handgun was recovered at the scene, Castro said.
— Carla Rivera"
That's a good question. There are a lot of different law enforcement departments (police and sheriff) operating around the Los Angeles area, they're not all under one big department.
On February 17 2013 02:20 Eben wrote: So is this even the LAPD? One of the sources says that it is the Sheriffs Office and not the LAPD?
"Johnathan Cuevas, 20
Died Oct. 10, 2010
Johnathan Cuevas, a 20-year-old Latino, was killed by a sheriff's deputy Sunday, Oct. 10, near Long Beach Boulevard and Josephine Street in Lynwood, according to Los Angeles County coroner's records.
The incident occurred about 12:30 a.m. when a lone deputy approached three men. One of the men, later identified by the coroner's office as Johnathan Cuevas, allegedly reached into his waistband as he started to run. Seeing this, the deputy fired several times, striking Cuevas, said Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Deputy Luis Castro.
Cuevas was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. A handgun was recovered at the scene, Castro said.
— Carla Rivera"
That's a good question. There are a lot of different law enforcement departments (police and sheriff) operating around the Los Angeles area, they're not all under one big department.
Exactly my point. Anytime anyone gets killed anywhere near that city it's always the LAPD's fault. I'd like to at least make sure where the blame falls before our witch hunt begins.
On February 17 2013 01:39 KwarK wrote: One thing that troubles me about these incidents when it turned out the guy was no threat but the policeman decided he needed to take action to prevent a possible danger to himself is that that seems like a really shitty tradeoff. Clearly someone has taught police officers that if they feel there is a genuine danger to themselves then they can take whatever action they deem necessary to neutralise the threat. But when you look at it in terms of the possible negative outcome from getting it wrong, either a police officer getting killed by some criminal or an innocent member of the public getting killed by a police officer, the latter seems far worse to me. I'm not in favour of policemen dying, I think that's bad, but I also think it's a risk of their job, it's a risk they and their families get compensated for and it's an unfortunate aspect of public service. Whereas the latter, an agent of the state killing a member of the public who had done nothing wrong, is a far more serious issue. The mentality in which the police officer first defends himself against any perceived threat from a member of the public and marginalises the rights of the individual seems backwards and is indicative of a wider problem with police and their relationship with the public.
I had an earlier reply to you regarding judgment calls, but its a good thing you detailed out your opinion so that we can argue on specific terms.
But before that, let me make it clear that I am against use of lethal force against petty crimes and pedestrian incidents, specifically this one.
But, unlike the scenario that you picture this out to be, the law enforcement is not there to see what is the best situation that could arise from a given scenario. Crime, by definition, even "ongoing" or "perceived danger" ones, operate on time, and judgment call must be made. A police officer does not think, "Oh is it better that I let him get away so no one gets hurt". They are trained to respond to "perceived" danger. Some or most fail at this judgment, and this is another thread altogether. But it is wrong to think of the situation as the welfare of the citizen vs. the cop. Crime is crime no matter what to a cop, and he has constitutional rights to implement in the function of his duty. (But as I say, there are, as in this case obviously, wrong implementation of this.)
EDIT: And it is definitely wrong to think that dying or being in harms way is part of the police officers job. A police officer is there to ensure peace and order according to the law. Getting shot is a likely if unwanted result, but it should never be normalized. A police officer does not deserve to get such in the same manner that any law abiding citizen also doesnt.
I'm not saying a police officer deserves to get shot. I'm saying they accept the potential for them to get shot in the line of duty as a part of doing their job.
Imagine the parallel of a fireman showing up at a burning house that potentially had people inside. The house is a low risk but fire is unpredictable and it may collapse and block his exit if he checks for people even though 99% of the time he'd be fine. If he turns around and says "I'm not going in there, fire is dangerous" then he's not doing his job because his duty is to take that 1% risk to save the people. Similarly, if a police officer thinks there is a low possibility the guy is about the draw a gun on him and takes the shot then he is failing in his duty to protect the public by refusing to place himself in harms way. Policemen don't deserve to get shot and firemen don't deserve to get burnt but both have a duty to accept reasonable levels of personal risk in public service, that's their job.
As far as I know the law, firemen are not obliged by their job description to save live NO MATTER WHAT. They use judgment at well. IF they risk that 1% for the opportunity to save lives, that's going outside the call of duty, and is thus labelled a heroic act. In a similar manner, the police officers are not required to die or be shot at in the line of duty, whether or not it happens. Add to this the nature of crime and police work, then you see why survival instinct is the strongest factor in most cases.
A fireman who never shows up to work is a fireman who is simply choosing not to risk his life. Fighting fires is dangerous. He'll still get fired (no pun intended) though. He is professionally required to accept a degree of risk.
Surely you understand the fact that there is a difference between a fireman entering a house to save lives and using his judgment call in risking the 1% (your number) even when it seems impossible. The key word here is judgment. It is his job to save lives, when it is possible. But he is not supposed to die in the process. If he does, or risks doing so, it is an heroic act on his part, I was clear on that on my post to which you replied.
On February 17 2013 02:20 Eben wrote: So is this even the LAPD? One of the sources says that it is the Sheriffs Office and not the LAPD?
"Johnathan Cuevas, 20
Died Oct. 10, 2010
Johnathan Cuevas, a 20-year-old Latino, was killed by a sheriff's deputy Sunday, Oct. 10, near Long Beach Boulevard and Josephine Street in Lynwood, according to Los Angeles County coroner's records.
The incident occurred about 12:30 a.m. when a lone deputy approached three men. One of the men, later identified by the coroner's office as Johnathan Cuevas, allegedly reached into his waistband as he started to run. Seeing this, the deputy fired several times, striking Cuevas, said Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Deputy Luis Castro.
Cuevas was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. A handgun was recovered at the scene, Castro said.
— Carla Rivera"
That's a good question. There are a lot of different law enforcement departments (police and sheriff) operating around the Los Angeles area, they're not all under one big department.
Exactly my point. Anytime anyone gets killed anywhere near that city it's always the LAPD's fault. I'd like to at least make sure where the blame falls before our witch hunt begins.
Zeesh is that right? i knew there were alot of officers in that LAPD county but just off County Sheriffs and the LAPD itself that's 18k officers. And by county records the LA county has about 11 mil population making it larger then Sweden, Switzerland, Finland or Norway.
On February 17 2013 02:13 Eisregen wrote: Hm...seems the cop just did not want to move his own ass faster than normal. How did they explain, that the gun was never found when he claimed the suspect was armed? Was the judge some kind of alcoholic delusional?
Reminded me of a south Park Episode. Ignore the patriot act stuff. + Show Spoiler +
EPT
the killshot was over the top but this shooting is more than justified in my opinion.
