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So its not a very complex concept, i'll write it simply
Put infestors back to current fungle stats, make them hive tech and modify cost to 50 200 gas or 100 200 gas (keep infested terran change)
Put vipers where infestors are now, you cannot pull the same unit 2 times in 10 seconds
The viper as a non damaging support caster or "anti tech/deathball" to me feels far better placed at lair tech. it allows for marines to not get murdered "unskillfully" and is a great way to get more diverse comps in the dif zerg matchups. an example would be me feeling more comfortable using roach hydra rather then ling bane. hydra to me as a non self destructive mid game unit feels right to me in most matchups as a core unit
furthermore it encourages spreading of tanks or collosi and accomplishes the anti 1 army bind role blizzard intended while removing the massive energy build up infestors get being the mid game unit that match up with the late game units perfectly and transitionally
the viper has some op aspects but far better the infestor be a hard unit to get out thats worth it, and the viper be weaker, then the infestor being useless and the viper being end game
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I feel like this would be a huge problem for zerg. Not having a aoe dps spell in the mid game would be extremely challenging.
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i agree but dont you feel that the infestor is too good or too bad? it also isnt a fun unit to watch or play with
i can see roach hydra beating marine tank marauder with a viper or ling roach hydra even ling bane, long as its not infestors which imo ruin so much skill in the matchup
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
This would be like if Defiler was at lair in BW. It just wouldn't work as swarm/now blinding cloud would be far too strong that early in the game.
What they do need to do is put swarm hosts off of the infestor pit onto an upgraded hydra den and make that the requirement for hive rather than infestors.
Going for a caster should be a choice, not something that comes off a building you need to get to tech up.
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if binding cloud is available this much earlier, might as well tell terran don't go mech lol
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Swarm Host should mutate from Hydras, and the upgrade should be on the hydra den(but you should get the longer life free instead of having to upgrade for swarm host). But beside the point..
This wouldn't be horrible to some extent. Even with abduct not having a cooldown timer it wouldn't break much since at the mid game it would be tough to get more than 2-3 vipers and then have the money for the units needed to stop a big timing. There would be more mid game micro, but you'd need a hydra buff or something to help with those 2 base timings that infestors shut down especially from protoss.
But they won't make this change, and as far as the infestor goes, for the life of me I can't figure out why they don't just change fungal to reduce speed and firing rate 50%. Basically make it like time warp but with a firing rate reduction too and damage.
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casters that stack energy and do massive aoe damage imo are silly. i want infestors out and micro battle style units in. the viper makes you position and reposition. it adds a skill where better players deal and worse players fail and die which should be the goal of an RTS
you can mech vs vipers, you need thors and prob some AA to deal with em like vikings
pulling units should be a hive UPG but blinding cloud is fine to me mid game. it also adds some cool all in ideas imo for busting a base against a turtler
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On February 02 2013 17:39 Qikz wrote:
Going for a caster should be a choice, not something that comes off a building you need to get to tech up.
So you'll be wanting a sentry bay for Protoss.
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could you imagine how op queens would be if they could turn thors and tanks into broodlings in sc2 like in BW and flew around LIKE IN BW>?!?>!??
no matter what casters are op in sc2 cus they are easy to control. gota eliminate faceroll casters as much as possible which imo is the infestor
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On February 02 2013 17:54 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 17:39 Qikz wrote:
Going for a caster should be a choice, not something that comes off a building you need to get to tech up. So you'll be wanting a sentry bay for Protoss.
I would vote yes to this purely to see a giant sentry for a building.
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I think roach ling viper timings would be far too strong with vipers at T2. Protoss could basically never go for a ground army again; mid game ground toss relies heavily on force fields for defence, but Vipers negate those for the most part. We already see enough sky toss in ZvP, no need to eliminate all other strategies.
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On February 02 2013 17:46 sunglasseson wrote:
casters that stack energy and do massive aoe damage imo are silly. i want infestors out and micro battle style units in. the viper makes you position and reposition. it adds a skill where better players deal and worse players fail and die which should be the goal of an RTS
you can mech vs vipers, you need thors and prob some AA to deal with em like vikings
pulling units should be a hive UPG but blinding cloud is fine to me mid game. it also adds some cool all in ideas imo for busting a base against a turtler
Have you even played Hots as zerg once? Sounds like negative.
Fungal now is very hard to hit right, most of time it misses. Even on Wol where every pro zerg goes infestors, terrans are doing just fine if you watch recent GSL, SPL matches, so in Hots it's much easier to play vs. fungal.
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i just hate the infestor and find it an uneventful and sometimes overpowered mid game unit. i dont find viper to be very OP and its manageable and certainly more skilled imo then the infestor
and true lol skytoss is pretty dumb
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On February 02 2013 17:12 sunglasseson wrote:
furthermore it encourages spreading of tanks or collosi and accomplishes the anti 1 army bind role blizzard intended...
That's exactly what infestor does, or? If you have you army spread then infestors are pretty much useless, but without infestors you can just a-move with a clump of units.
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Nah it would honestly be over powered. I can only imagine though as a zerg facing mech would be lol worthy. I rarely lose to mech as it is, but if I could get blinding cloud at 11 minutes in the game a terran would die to a simple roach/hydra/viper timing. Let alone even with bio i could see viper timings with blinding cloud being over powered.
It's fine the way it is, I am with you I dislike infestors but their necessary and unless blizzard wants to redesign zerg the infestor is a must for a zerg player.
The projectile also surprisingly misses a lot even though it's fast. It's a little more exciting I imagine spectator wise now that you can dodge fungal since it's not instant anymore.
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On February 02 2013 18:41 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 17:46 sunglasseson wrote:
casters that stack energy and do massive aoe damage imo are silly. i want infestors out and micro battle style units in. the viper makes you position and reposition. it adds a skill where better players deal and worse players fail and die which should be the goal of an RTS
you can mech vs vipers, you need thors and prob some AA to deal with em like vikings
pulling units should be a hive UPG but blinding cloud is fine to me mid game. it also adds some cool all in ideas imo for busting a base against a turtler Have you even played Hots as zerg once? Sounds like negative. Fungal now is very hard to hit right, most of time it misses. Even on Wol where every pro zerg goes infestors, terrans are doing just fine if you watch recent GSL, SPL matches, so in Hots it's much easier to play vs. fungal.
This is actually not true. I looked up the winrates of terran in Code S for the last three seasons:
Current season: TvZ 12-20 (37,50%)
Season 5: TvZ 18-34 (34,62%)
Season 4: TvZ 27-36 (42,85%)
Season 3: TvZ 19-26 (42,22%)
Total: TvZ 76-116 (39,58%)
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On February 02 2013 21:34 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 18:41 Alpina wrote:On February 02 2013 17:46 sunglasseson wrote:
casters that stack energy and do massive aoe damage imo are silly. i want infestors out and micro battle style units in. the viper makes you position and reposition. it adds a skill where better players deal and worse players fail and die which should be the goal of an RTS
you can mech vs vipers, you need thors and prob some AA to deal with em like vikings
pulling units should be a hive UPG but blinding cloud is fine to me mid game. it also adds some cool all in ideas imo for busting a base against a turtler Have you even played Hots as zerg once? Sounds like negative. Fungal now is very hard to hit right, most of time it misses. Even on Wol where every pro zerg goes infestors, terrans are doing just fine if you watch recent GSL, SPL matches, so in Hots it's much easier to play vs. fungal. This is actually not true. I looked up the winrates of terran in Code S for the last three seasons: Current season: TvZ 12-20 (37,50%) Season 5: TvZ 18-34 (34,62%) Season 4: TvZ 27-36 (42,85%) Season 3: TvZ 19-26 (42,22%) Total: TvZ 76-116 (39,58%)
Win rate does not matter here, if you watch the games you can see that good terrans are dealing with infestors just fine, and when they lose to infestors then it's usually a huge error like letting 10 vikings fungaled by 1 infestor.
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On February 02 2013 21:44 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 21:34 Jerom wrote:On February 02 2013 18:41 Alpina wrote:On February 02 2013 17:46 sunglasseson wrote:
casters that stack energy and do massive aoe damage imo are silly. i want infestors out and micro battle style units in. the viper makes you position and reposition. it adds a skill where better players deal and worse players fail and die which should be the goal of an RTS
you can mech vs vipers, you need thors and prob some AA to deal with em like vikings
pulling units should be a hive UPG but blinding cloud is fine to me mid game. it also adds some cool all in ideas imo for busting a base against a turtler Have you even played Hots as zerg once? Sounds like negative. Fungal now is very hard to hit right, most of time it misses. Even on Wol where every pro zerg goes infestors, terrans are doing just fine if you watch recent GSL, SPL matches, so in Hots it's much easier to play vs. fungal. This is actually not true. I looked up the winrates of terran in Code S for the last three seasons: Current season: TvZ 12-20 (37,50%) Season 5: TvZ 18-34 (34,62%) Season 4: TvZ 27-36 (42,85%) Season 3: TvZ 19-26 (42,22%) Total: TvZ 76-116 (39,58%) Win rate does not matter here, if you watch the games you can see that good terrans are dealing with infestors just fine, and when they lose to infestors then it's usually a huge error like letting 10 vikings fungaled by 1 infestor.
Wait, a Code S terran isnt a good terran?
EDIT: Those statistics are probably the first statistics (disregarding sample size) you should take into consideration when balancing a game.
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On February 02 2013 22:21 Unsane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 21:44 Alpina wrote:On February 02 2013 21:34 Jerom wrote:On February 02 2013 18:41 Alpina wrote:On February 02 2013 17:46 sunglasseson wrote:
casters that stack energy and do massive aoe damage imo are silly. i want infestors out and micro battle style units in. the viper makes you position and reposition. it adds a skill where better players deal and worse players fail and die which should be the goal of an RTS
you can mech vs vipers, you need thors and prob some AA to deal with em like vikings
pulling units should be a hive UPG but blinding cloud is fine to me mid game. it also adds some cool all in ideas imo for busting a base against a turtler Have you even played Hots as zerg once? Sounds like negative. Fungal now is very hard to hit right, most of time it misses. Even on Wol where every pro zerg goes infestors, terrans are doing just fine if you watch recent GSL, SPL matches, so in Hots it's much easier to play vs. fungal. This is actually not true. I looked up the winrates of terran in Code S for the last three seasons: Current season: TvZ 12-20 (37,50%) Season 5: TvZ 18-34 (34,62%) Season 4: TvZ 27-36 (42,85%) Season 3: TvZ 19-26 (42,22%) Total: TvZ 76-116 (39,58%) Win rate does not matter here, if you watch the games you can see that good terrans are dealing with infestors just fine, and when they lose to infestors then it's usually a huge error like letting 10 vikings fungaled by 1 infestor. Wait, a Code S terran isnt a good terran? EDIT: Those statistics are probably the first statistics (disregarding sample size) you should take into consideration when balancing a game.
So according to you low terran win % means infestors are imba? Nice thinking..
Oh and i saw many good Code S terrans do careless stuff and lose games;
+ Show Spoiler +see recent mvp code s games
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infestors are bad for the game, vipers are good
this i hope is something we can agree on (the unit pull is rather stupid tho)
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EPT
