EPTAdjusting the Corrupter - Page 2
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Kaldi
Iceland14 Posts
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Millet
Sweden143 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:25 Kaldi wrote: Zerg simply needs air splash like Terran (hsm) and protoss (storm) has. The 30 damage fungal isnt working out when you have units with over 250 hp ! I agree with this. On the note of making corrupters more interesting, perhaps a line splash attack, similar to the hellion, would benefit the corruptor. This coupled with some kind of possiblity to do something to ground units. Thus not making them dead weight when all air units are dead. | ||
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Kaldi
Iceland14 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On January 19 2013 03:48 Ramiz1989 wrote: He is not talking about suiciding, but melee units, not flying Banelings, but flying Zerglings. lol armies of exigo, stingers After an upgrade, that's exactly what they could become. | ||
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People_0f_Color
177 Posts
1. Its boring in design. You just mass it to kill air. 2. Its not even that good at killing air anymore. Its losing the arms race against voids and the only way for Zerg's anti air to make sense is for corruptors to be supreme because zerg doesn't have any other good aair. 3. Once it is supreme in the air and it kills everything, it stupidly floats there. Clearly a new ability needs to be there that can solve a plethora of these problems. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:50 People_0f_Color wrote: So if I get this right, there are 3 complaints with teh Corrupter. 1. Its boring in design. You just mass it to kill air. 2. Its not even that good at killing air anymore. Its losing the arms race against voids and the only way for Zerg's anti air to make sense is for corruptors to be supreme because zerg doesn't have any other good aair. 3. Once it is supreme in the air and it kills everything, it stupidly floats there. Clearly a new ability needs to be there that can solve a plethora of these problems. The problem is that it's what the Scout was in BW plus larva mechanic. When you think of Zerg you don't think "durable ranged fighter with decent stats" you think fast crazy swarmy things that overwhelm the opponent with numbers. The corruptor would have been an awesome Protoss unit. Strong, bulky, buffs Stalker DPS, boosts Colossus DPS, etc... But sadly it's Zerg instead. High DPS short range differentiates it from Terran. Low supply low cost differentiates it from toss. Just pick one or the other and it would seem special. But giving the swarm race the bulky fighter of AA just doesn't make sense. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:50 People_0f_Color wrote: So if I get this right, there are 3 complaints with teh Corrupter. 1. Its boring in design. You just mass it to kill air. 2. Its not even that good at killing air anymore. Its losing the arms race against voids and the only way for Zerg's anti air to make sense is for corruptors to be supreme because zerg doesn't have any other good aair. 3. Once it is supreme in the air and it kills everything, it stupidly floats there. Clearly a new ability needs to be there that can solve a plethora of these problems. 3. actually, once it is supreme in the air and it kills everything, it morphs into a broodlord, which was the problem with PvZ in WoL. I'm all for changing the corruptor, but we don't want to go back to having all toss air die to it. Why not just do something like give the hydra an ability for bonus damage to air units? or bonus to armored. something like that would be great. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:50 People_0f_Color wrote: So if I get this right, there are 3 complaints with teh Corrupter. 1. Its boring in design. You just mass it to kill air. 2. Its not even that good at killing air anymore. Its losing the arms race against voids and the only way for Zerg's anti air to make sense is for corruptors to be supreme because zerg doesn't have any other good aair. 3. Once it is supreme in the air and it kills everything, it stupidly floats there. Clearly a new ability needs to be there that can solve a plethora of these problems. That's what I hoped for since WoL. It's a pretty big problem that once you make it to counter heavy air, once you win they are straight up useless. This allows other races a lot of control over Zergs tech, where if they are forced in to Corrupters, they are then stuck with a useless A2A unit, making them extremely vulnerable to tech switches. | ||
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
On January 19 2013 05:50 People_0f_Color wrote: So if I get this right, there are 3 complaints with teh Corrupter. 1. Its boring in design. You just mass it to kill air. 2. Its not even that good at killing air anymore. Its losing the arms race against voids and the only way for Zerg's anti air to make sense is for corruptors to be supreme because zerg doesn't have any other good aair. 3. Once it is supreme in the air and it kills everything, it stupidly floats there. Clearly a new ability needs to be there that can solve a plethora of these problems. 1. In what way is this different to vikings or phoenix? There are plenty of units that you just build for little or no other reason than to kill stuff. 2. So just because zerg only has one unit it should be capable of being cost effective against all four of protoss' air-to-air? It already beats carriers, tempests and phoenix in a straight up fight. Against terran you will never beat vikings, the by far most common air unit for them and BCs, well you just don't see those much do you? What would a reasonable response be for protoss once corruptors kill any air unit cost for cost? There is no dynamic there, just a simple hard counter to an entire tech tree which is without a doubt not healthy for the gameplay. 3. This point is the same as 1. Yes you can land vikings but, realistically, that is about as useful as corruption is for the most part. On top of that you do morph corruptors into broodlords, this is not a trivial thing if you ask me. I would say that the problem with corruptor is that it cannot alone fill the role of a superior air-to-air unit, because then there would be no reason to combat zerg with air units ever. There needs to be more breadth in the arsenal for zerg and that pretty much means hydras and mutas. Then, when there is a choice in "how", you will not need a more interesting corruptor. | ||
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Hamzerglar
United States19 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Unstable Infection The corruptor burrows into the hull of an enemy air unit, causing area damage at the cost of the corruptor's life. Researched at spire. The damage would be cost inefficient unless you could hit ~2.5 enemy air units at once. also it could be microed against by including a HSM style delay between casting and detonation. only affects air. this would have to be accompanied by a nerf to it's ability to fight straight up, encouraging use of hydras/mutas against smaller air fleets. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 19 2013 06:25 Fenris420 wrote: 1. In what way is this different to vikings or phoenix? There are plenty of units that you just build for little or no other reason than to kill stuff. 2. So just because zerg only has one unit it should be capable of being cost effective against all four of protoss' air-to-air? It already beats carriers, tempests and phoenix in a straight up fight. Against terran you will never beat vikings, the by far most common air unit for them and BCs, well you just don't see those much do you? What would a reasonable response be for protoss once corruptors kill any air unit cost for cost? There is no dynamic there, just a simple hard counter to an entire tech tree which is without a doubt not healthy for the gameplay. 3. This point is the same as 1. Yes you can land vikings but, realistically, that is about as useful as corruption is for the most part. On top of that you do morph corruptors into broodlords, this is not a trivial thing if you ask me. I would say that the problem with corruptor is that it cannot alone fill the role of a superior air-to-air unit, because then there would be no reason to combat zerg with air units ever. There needs to be more breadth in the arsenal for zerg and that pretty much means hydras and mutas. Then, when there is a choice in "how", you will not need a more interesting corruptor. 1) Vikings are at least a little bit useful once the enemy air is dead. And I don't think I really have to answer the phoenix issue, as there's many harassments and strategies based upon graviton, especially in PvZ. 2) You bring up a valid issue about hard countering an entire tech tree with a single unit. I would gladly give up strength in one area in exchange for a little more usefulness in more various strategies, or a little more usefulness after A2A battles. A new active ability that would require some form of micro would be ideal to increasing the skill-based aspect of the game. But with that said, heres something you may be able to sympathize with: Think about the fact that they hard counter an entire tech tree, but are completely hard countered by all the other tech trees. For Zerg, it's the same exact problem as Protoss is having with Corruptors. Hard counters are not good or fun for either race. 3) Difference is, corruption isn't very useful if the majority of your supply units can't even hit ground. Morphing in to BL isn't trivial as you say, but considering they are only A2G, it suffers from the same problem as Corruptors themselves. And think about what the counters to BL are: the units that Corruptors are intended to take out. Once you switch them in to BL you no longer have the units needed to defend them. In response to your last paragraph, I somewhat agree. But Muta's dont work very well with corruptors in general because all the units are so gas heavy. Hydras are do-able, but not as realistic if you have to tech switch to hydras and BL at the same time in order to defend them realistically. This problem could be solved by a slight rework of Corruptors that would make the match more enjoyable for both the Zerg player and the opponents, since we are largely suffering from the same issues. | ||
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Kaldi
Iceland14 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
I'd previously suggested that corruptors should have much less health, and a different Corruption that acts as an air-only "Iron Maiden" curse. (Corrupted units cause high damage to themselves) This combo's favorably with HoTS mutas as their natural HP regen will increase the iron maiden damage on enemy units. It combos to a much smaller extent with hydras or festors. The Zerg player will need to cast Corruption on the high DPS units like voidrays and vikings, and will have to control both corruptors and mutas. The enemy player can micro against Corruption either by staying away from the Corruptors (it'll still have a fairly short range) or if they get corrupted they can run away until it wears off (it'll have a CD). Of course, the mutalisks can continue to attack fleeing enemy units. Also, the Zerg player will want to micro his mutas to hit the enemy units that DON'T have corruption - the corrupted ones will eventually kill themselves anyways (if they keep attacking). | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On January 19 2013 03:02 Thieving Magpie wrote: Personally I wish they were the opposite of Vikings... High HP high damage melee units that need to swarm enemy ships--but since they're melee they can be "countered" by good positioning and focus fire. I got two great ideas for the corruptors: 1. Corruptors are now melee air units with much more HP. They do more damage than they do now. You can research "Corruptor Rider" upgrade from the Spire. This allows Hydralisks to ride the Corruptor. When a Hydralisk rides a Corruptor, the Hydralisk can fire from the corruptor while having the hitpoints and speed of the corruptor. So instead of the usual Hydralisk are worthless complaints, you have the "CORRUPTOR RIDER!". For example: *An army of colossus march against your poor hydralisks... NO WORRIES! Bring on the corruptors, let the Hydralisk ride them! Or *An army of marines come in to attempt to take out your corruptors... Again... Hydralisks Riding Corruptors! 2. In addition to the above. You can research an upgrade called "Stone Form" from the spire. This allows Corruptors to land on the ground turn into Stone, and rapidly regenerate HP. While in Stone Form, Corruptors have enhanced armor and can also function as a blocker. For example, you can block your ramp by using Corruptors in their stone form. When you don't need corruptors to block/protect your ramp anymore, you can make them go into their regular form (and probably combine them with a Hydralisk too, so that hydralisk can ride on corruptors) and own it up. Anyway, I fixed the corruptor is boring problem guys. | ||
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HumpingHydra
Canada97 Posts
On January 19 2013 07:00 Piousflea wrote: The problem with Corruptors is that they are an all or nothing unit. In BW if you wanted to kill air, you wanted a mixture of devos, mutas and scourges. Micro was extremely important on both sides; zerg needed to control his scourge properly, and the other guy needed to micro away from scourges and avoid clumping up vs devourers. In SC2 you build corruptors and attack-move. Phoenixes and mutas can run away from corruptors, everything else can't and you really don't have any reason to micro. I'd previously suggested that corruptors should have much less health, and a different Corruption that acts as an air-only "Iron Maiden" curse. (Corrupted units cause high damage to themselves) This combo's favorably with HoTS mutas as their natural HP regen will increase the iron maiden damage on enemy units. It combos to a much smaller extent with hydras or festors. The Zerg player will need to cast Corruption on the high DPS units like voidrays and vikings, and will have to control both corruptors and mutas. The enemy player can micro against Corruption either by staying away from the Corruptors (it'll still have a fairly short range) or if they get corrupted they can run away until it wears off (it'll have a CD). Of course, the mutalisks can continue to attack fleeing enemy units. Also, the Zerg player will want to micro his mutas to hit the enemy units that DON'T have corruption - the corrupted ones will eventually kill themselves anyways (if they keep attacking). I like this idea. Having more units with less health adds to the zerg identity rather than the current quite beefy corruptor. The spell you suggested would create a lot of depth. It of course, like all other suggestions would have to be balanced and rebalanced often. | ||
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
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_Synx_
Netherlands2 Posts
On January 19 2013 07:00 Piousflea wrote: The problem with Corruptors is that they are an all or nothing unit. In BW if you wanted to kill air, you wanted a mixture of devos, mutas and scourges. Micro was extremely important on both sides; zerg needed to control his scourge properly, and the other guy needed to micro away from scourges and avoid clumping up vs devourers. In SC2 you build corruptors and attack-move. Phoenixes and mutas can run away from corruptors, everything else can't and you really don't have any reason to micro. I'd previously suggested that corruptors should have much less health, and a different Corruption that acts as an air-only "Iron Maiden" curse. (Corrupted units cause high damage to themselves) This combo's favorably with HoTS mutas as their natural HP regen will increase the iron maiden damage on enemy units. It combos to a much smaller extent with hydras or festors. The Zerg player will need to cast Corruption on the high DPS units like voidrays and vikings, and will have to control both corruptors and mutas. The enemy player can micro against Corruption either by staying away from the Corruptors (it'll still have a fairly short range) or if they get corrupted they can run away until it wears off (it'll have a CD). Of course, the mutalisks can continue to attack fleeing enemy units. Also, the Zerg player will want to micro his mutas to hit the enemy units that DON'T have corruption - the corrupted ones will eventually kill themselves anyways (if they keep attacking). So if i'm correct it would make corrupter more a support unit, and muta's to be the main flying anti air unit? I dont know if thats a good idea, making muta's the main anti air unit. The main reason is that flying anti air units shouldnt be really amazing in other aspects, just like the phoenix and the vikings are; They can harass and the phoenix can give support but there are better choices if you want to use them mainly for that. And i'm really glad that its like that. If you lose your air army because the enemy made a large amount of vikings/corrupters/phoenixes, you dont lost right away because they cant really kill you; They can harass a bit but that it. Muta's at the other hand can completely wipe your base out when you lose your main air army to it, if muta's would counter them. I dont know but a flying anti air unit shouldnt in mine opinion not be able to do a lot of damage outside his main roll. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 19 2013 07:50 _Synx_ wrote: So if i'm correct it would make corrupter more a support unit, and muta's to be the main flying anti air unit? I dont know if thats a good idea, making muta's the main anti air unit. The main reason is that flying anti air units shouldnt be really amazing in other aspects, just like the phoenix and the vikings are; They can harass and the phoenix can give support but there are better choices if you want to use them mainly for that. And i'm really glad that its like that. If you lose your air army because the enemy made a large amount of vikings/corrupters/phoenixes, you dont lost right away because they cant really kill you; They can harass a bit but that it. Muta's at the other hand can completely wipe your base out when you lose your main air army to it, if muta's would counter them. I dont know but a flying anti air unit shouldnt in mine opinion not be able to do a lot of damage outside his main roll. He's not saying to buff the Muta, he's saying have a spellcaster type unit to allow the muta a fighting chance at air-to-air assuming heavy zerg micro. | ||
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