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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
March 01 2018 17:07 GMT
#199821
On March 02 2018 02:03 Gorsameth wrote:
People have predicated the economic collapse of China for years, at some point they are bound to be right.


Broken clock syndrome?
Something witty
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-01 17:13:33
March 01 2018 17:09 GMT
#199822
More like the building bubble, hence the empty cities they have to keep building as the Government subsidies companies etc and if they stop kaboom trillions are lost.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
March 01 2018 17:09 GMT
#199823
I mean it is definitely clear that China will hit significant trouble sooner or later. Predicting when and how hard it will hit is not so easy though.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 01 2018 17:11 GMT
#199824
Considering Xi just became president-for-life, the China situation could get interesting.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 01 2018 17:11 GMT
#199825
Considering their currently leader is consolidating power and ending term limits, I would assume it will be after that. Right about when there is a huge down turn and the government of Yes Men tries to hide that face and makes it 1000 times worse.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10924 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-01 17:23:41
March 01 2018 17:23 GMT
#199826
Can't China at this point just sell like half of the US (and London+tons of other places)? If anyone still wants it...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 01 2018 17:30 GMT
#199827
I thought they just sold groceries...

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
March 01 2018 17:31 GMT
#199828
On March 01 2018 23:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Example 3,328 on how Capitalism is not sustainable in the Healthcare field.

Show nested quote +
In the face of surging prescription drug prices, some US states are proposing to import medicines in bulk from Canada, where many drugs are cheaper thanks to government price controls.

Vermont lawmakers are considering legislation to create an agency which would buy popular prescription medicines in bulk from Canada, and then distribute to pharmacies in the state. Utah, Oklahoma and West Virginia have proposed similar measures.

The state senator Ginny Lyons, who sponsored the Vermont bill, said that without government price controls, “pharmaceutical companies are getting away with murder,” in the US.

“People are making choices between food and prescription drugs. We can’t allow that to continue, so we’re trying to take matters into our own hands,” she said.

Lyons acknowledged the bill is a “first step” to reign in spending, but hopes it will spur Congress to act. The federal government would need to approve any bulk importing program.

“When a lot of little fish get together, it has meaning for the members of Congress.”

The desperate move comes as the cost of pharmaceuticals is expected to grow faster than other US healthcare spending in the next decade.

Meanwhile, unpredictable – and sometimes dramatic – increases in drug costs make it nearly impossible for states to budget year-to-year.

Medicaid, the public health program that insures 70 million poor and disabled Americans, is jointly run by the state and federal government. But states have a limited number of tools legally available to negotiate drug prices with manufacturers.

As a result, mid-year drug approvals and steep price hikes can throw a state’s entire health budget off course.

For example, between 2014 and 2015m Medicaid drug spending increased by $3.7bn or 13% year-over-year. That jump was largely attributed to two new hepatitis C drugs which each cost more than $80,000 per treatment.

One of those hepatitis C drugs, called Sovaldi, is a good example of how prices can vary between countries. In the US, a course of Sovaldi lasts 12 weeks and costs $90,000 US retail.

American insurers typically negotiate a discount of 41%, according to a Bloomberg News analysis. That puts the cost of the drug at $17,700 per month in the US.

But in the United Kingdom, that drug costs $16,770 per month, and in Canada $14,493.

For an even more dramatic example, consider Gleevec, a leukemia drug. It costs $10,122 in the US, $2,645 in the UK, and $2,420 in Canada.

“Our Medicaid drug prices, particularly for specialty drugs, are way over the top,” said Lyons. “So, we’re trying to identify those drugs where the cost has escalated in the past few years, or the payment per dose is very high as compared with Canada.”

The United States has the most expensive health system in the world; Americans pay on average three times more than British people for top-selling prescription drugs.

Prescription drugs are be no means cheap in Canada: surveys suggest it is one of the most expensive countries in the world after the US, and a recent study found that nearly 1 million Canadians per year sacrifice groceries or heating to afford pharmaceuticals.

Canadian drug policy experts warned that importing drugs from Canada is unlikely to provide nationwide relief in America.

Dr Joel Lexchin, a former emergency department physician and drug policy expert from York University in Toronto, Canada, said that it’s “fine for an individual” to drive up to Canada and buy drugs, but that the US government needs to tackle drug pricing for a sustainable solution.

“Even if the US bought every pill in Canada, you have almost 10 times the population. This is not going to solve the problem of drug prices in the United States,” said Lexchin. “The solution is for the US to start regulating its own prices. And you can do that.”

Officials at Health Canada said they were aware of the proposals but said it was too early to comment.

Pharmaceutical lobbyists vehemently oppose importing drugs from Canada, and have argued the drugs are not safe. The industry spent $277m on attempts to influence members of Congress in 2017 alone.


Source


As a new nurse, this kind of shit infuriates me.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-01 17:33:16
March 01 2018 17:31 GMT
#199829
On March 02 2018 02:09 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
More like the building bubble, hence the empty cities they have to keep building as the Government subsidies companies etc and if they stop kaboom trillions are lost.


The housing bubble in China is very similar to the US housing market collapse in 2008. Housing prices are going up at insane rates which means people want tons of property which is in turn driving the market up even more. The government has already stepped in to try to control the market so it'll be interesting to see how much of the bubble popping they can absorb or mitigate.

On March 02 2018 02:23 Velr wrote:
Can't China at this point just sell like half of the US (and London+tons of other places)? If anyone still wants it...


The bubble we're talking about bursting is personnel debt for citizens holding typically great investments like housing.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
March 01 2018 17:33 GMT
#199830
On March 02 2018 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
Considering Xi just became president-for-life, the China situation could get interesting.


Xi consolidating power is a sign that the Chinese government knows a big dip is coming. I think China intends to limit the damage through extreme censorship and whatnot.
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-01 17:36:50
March 01 2018 17:34 GMT
#199831
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahsu/2018/02/26/chinas-household-debt-a-growing-concern-amid-rising-home-prices/#1710d55a180d

While the world has been keeping a close eye on rising levels of corporate debt, China's household debt has quietly surged, according to new research -- and Chinese regulators are concerned that some households are over-leveraged.

January loan figures reveal that households accounted for close to one-third of RMB bank loans issued. Most of the consumer loans are mortgage loans, which face risks as housing prices continue to rise, creating an asset price bubble that may, in time, burst, leading to economic stagnation and instability.

Rising mortgage lending

While household debt stood at 53.2% of GDP by October 2017, according to data from the Southwestern University of Finance and Economics (but still behind that of the U.S. and Japan at 79.5% and 62.5% respectively), the rate of growth is strong, rising more than 80 percentage points from January of the same year. The household debt-to-disposable income ratio is catching up to developed country levels, having reached 68.3% by the end of 2016.


Many of these loans are associated with mortgages, which has become an increasing burden to home buyers due to rising home prices and lending rates. In many large cities, the home price to income ratio is high, while income gains remain more modest. Increasingly, home buyers in these locations find themselves overextended financially. The housing market, particularly in major urban areas, has continued to heat up in recent years due to rapid urbanization and low interest rates, and as prices have risen, buyers have clamored to purchase property before the next price increase.

Purchase restrictions have limited effect

Local governments have attempted to cool the housing sector, placing restrictions on home purchases. A number of cities imposed curbs on home re-sales, second home purchases and sales to non-local residents last year, which reduced home prices somewhat. This year, home purchase policies in a few cities have become more flexible, with different policies for different housing targeting desirable home buyers. For example, Nanjing in eastern China loosened purchase restrictions for high-end professionals. Purchase restrictions, however, continue to offset home price increases to some extent.

Restrictions on mortgage lending met with mixed success last year. As some cities increased the loan-to-value ratios for mortgage loans, available funding for mortgages declined. However, consumers found a way around this. Some consumer loans classified as non-mortgage debt were likely used for home purchases, while loans for real estate purchases were also illicitly obtained from the shadow banking sector. To the latter point, microloans, unsecured short-term loans, were used by households for mortgage deposits. Regulators are now cracking down on these practices.

Dangers of deflating bubble

Highly-leveraged households are vulnerable to a potential shock from a deflating property market bubble. Declining home prices result in a reduction of household wealth and shrink the ability of indebted households to sell their homes during a downturn. And once real estate prices decline, banks greatly reduce mortgage lending, which results in a liquidity crunch. The dangers brought about by the presence of a potential real estate bubble are real. Home prices continued to rise on average across China in January, although there was some softening in major cities.

Although it's unlikely that local governments will allow home prices to decline rapidly if the bubble bursts, even small home price declines will have a negative impact on China’s household wealth. This is because most household wealth is held in the form of real estate, due to the absence of other investment outlets -- and this presents a major challenge to financial and social stability.

Economic implications of debt

Increasing household debt also has implications for the greater economy. China has, for several decades, relied on household savings held in bank accounts to fund business investment. More recently, limits to returns on investment have been compensated for by household consumption, which some analysts argue is a positive development. However, household indebtedness swings the pendulum in the opposite direction, with many households increasingly using their savings as well as bank loans to purchase homes. Even though household savings remain high relative to that of other nations, this is something to keep an eye on.

Because China’s government can limit declines in asset prices and inject funds into banks and ailing entities, a financial crisis fuelled by debt defaults is not a pressing concern. Economic stagnation is the more likely outcome, as high levels of indebtedness reduce the potential for real growth to occur.

At this moment, household debt is not at an alarming level, but if it continues to grow at the same pace, consumer debt could reach levels experienced during the 2008 U.S. financial crisis within five years -- and this will pose a very real threat to China's overall economic health.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-property/four-cities-in-china-move-to-restrict-property-purchases-idUSKCN1220EJ

What happens when no one can buy houses? Lol...
Life?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 01 2018 17:45 GMT
#199832


Knife fight is back on the table!
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
March 01 2018 17:49 GMT
#199833
This man is a colossal moron. He proves time and time again he has no concept of foreign policy, economic policy, or even the rule of law. Simply amazing. But hey, he's fighting that culture war!
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-01 17:52:09
March 01 2018 17:51 GMT
#199834
Personally I feel like he's trying to create sanctions on the US by adding taxes to everything imported so eventually nothing comes in, although, I know that's not how it works, but yea.
Life?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 01 2018 17:52 GMT
#199835
It will take like a decade to rebuild our steel industry. I am sure who loses their jobs due to the great Trump Steel shortage or whatever this mess will be called are real patriots and will be willing to wait.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22472 Posts
March 01 2018 17:55 GMT
#199836
On March 02 2018 02:52 Plansix wrote:
It will take like a decade to rebuild our steel industry. I am sure who loses their jobs due to the great Trump Steel shortage or whatever this mess will be called are real patriots and will be willing to wait.
Not to mention those who lose their jobs in the industries that are systematically destroyed by the rest of the world as retaliation.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
March 01 2018 17:59 GMT
#199837
On March 02 2018 02:55 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2018 02:52 Plansix wrote:
It will take like a decade to rebuild our steel industry. I am sure who loses their jobs due to the great Trump Steel shortage or whatever this mess will be called are real patriots and will be willing to wait.
Not to mention those who lose their jobs in the industries that are systematically destroyed by the rest of the world as retaliation.


The Trump's goverment picking winners in the economy. The other industries just get to wait until some other nation picks the losers.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-01 18:10:13
March 01 2018 18:08 GMT
#199838
So in which industries will we see the biggest price hikes (for the general population)? I'd assume cars?

Lets make no mistake, a (very) few people will get richer, but 98% of the americans have to carry that burden. Or does anyone here think that the fact that manufacturers of everything will just buy the more expensive american steel and not pass that price hike down the line to the customer?

On track to MA1950A.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5001 Posts
March 01 2018 18:12 GMT
#199839
If he's going to do it next week maybe he just keeps delaying it and/or Congress steps in. Seems like they could get the votes for that.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
March 01 2018 18:14 GMT
#199840
I don't think Trump intends to enact any of these tariffs. This is just him using the incorrect view of "they need us more than we need them" and hoping we blink first. He'll blink first, as he always does.
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