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While i think that GH does have a point (and i rarely do nowadays), i feel like the problem starts somewhere else entirely. Yeah, you could increase the pay for what essentially is slave labour. Or, you could take away the incentive for your justice system to incarcerate indiscriminately and for as long as possible.
The root of the problem is your "for profit" system for everything. Schools, prisons, you name it. As soon as something goes "for profit", you know that you should look very closely rather than away. "For profit" should be the synonym for "fuck people over". In fact, it is. There's no "for profit" institution that has the well being of their customers in mind. Which is fine, because as we say in germany, the shirt is closer to you than your trousers. Or, the company is more important than the customer. Problem arises once you give things like prisons to the private sector. Or healthcare. Or military. Things that shouldn't be for profit. Things that, if you look at them, think "that should be federal, not private".
In regards to the very specific problem of not paying your prisoners properly, that's btw not an american problem. That's everywhere in the world. It's a loophole in which even federal institutions (as an example that i know of) like german prisons can make money - so they do. In germany they pay a third of the current minimum wage for low-skill labour stuff like putting screws into boxes (you know, those boxes/screw sets with 250 screws), putting them in direct competition with people who actually have a company that's supposed to be doing that. And which have to pay minimum wage.
Prisons are rehabilitation centers. Or at least, that's what they're supposed to be. There absolutely should be programs to get people back on track after they leave (including work), but slave labour isn't one of them.
I didn't actually expect anything less of a republican. The immediate "he didn't suggest that it would've stopped anything, his message is that disarming citizens can have detrimental consequences".. Is supposed to make it better, which i find even funnier.
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On March 01 2018 17:46 m4ini wrote:While i think that GH does have a point (and i rarely do nowadays), i feel like the problem starts somewhere else entirely. Yeah, you could increase the pay for what essentially is slave labour. Or, you could take away the incentive for your justice system to incarcerate indiscriminately and for as long as possible. The root of the problem is your "for profit" system for everything. Schools, prisons, you name it. As soon as something goes "for profit", you know that you should look very closely rather than away. "For profit" should be the synonym for "fuck people over". In fact, it is. There's no "for profit" institution that has the well being of their customers in mind. Which is fine, because as we say in germany, the shirt is closer to you than your trousers. Or, the company is more important than the customer. Problem arises once you give things like prisons to the private sector. Or healthcare. Or military. Things that shouldn't be for profit. Things that, if you look at them, think "that should be federal, not private". In regards to the very specific problem of not paying your prisoners properly, that's btw not an american problem. That's everywhere in the world. It's a loophole in which even federal institutions (as an example that i know of) like german prisons can make money - so they do. In germany they pay a third of the current minimum wage for low-skill labour stuff like putting screws into boxes (you know, those boxes/screw sets with 250 screws), putting them in direct competition with people who actually have a company that's supposed to be doing that. And which have to pay minimum wage. Prisons are rehabilitation centers. Or at least, that's what they're supposed to be. There absolutely should be programs to get people back on track after they leave (including work), but slave labour isn't one of them. I didn't actually expect anything less of a republican. The immediate "he didn't suggest that it would've stopped anything, his message is that disarming citizens can have detrimental consequences".. Is supposed to make it better, which i find even funnier.
Just for some perspective we're talking between ~$0.23-$1.15/hr (at unicore specifically) compared to a federal minimum wage of 7.25 or as high as $11.50 in Washington state or the ~$13/hr people make at comparable work to the unicore furniture joints
Germany's minimum wage works out to ~$14-15 an hour (plus you have healthcare and infrastructure) So in effect your unskilled prison laborers are making just a little less than our minimum wage workers in the first place (but they have healthcare), let alone the prisoners that work for less than 1/5th of the minimum wage.
P6's idea of just paying them more and the problem was solved was more ridiculous than it looks on it's face.
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Germanies minimum wage is around $11 (9 euros, iirc). Plus healthcare, not sure what you mean by infrastructure.
Rest is correct, but one should keep in mind that germany generally is very "pro-regulation", so the fact that prisons are using a loophole to make money (even if it's more than a US prisoner) is quite shocking to us.
Well.. Should be, anyway. In reality, the usual "well, they're prisoners, so who cares - there's a reason that they're there, no?" pretty much destroys any real debate that could be had to, for example, protect small business owners from "jail dumping prices". It's not just the prisoner that gets fucked by these dumping prices.
edit: the comparison between wages doesn't work out that well though because we have 20% VAT on everything.
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On March 01 2018 18:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 17:46 m4ini wrote:While i think that GH does have a point (and i rarely do nowadays), i feel like the problem starts somewhere else entirely. Yeah, you could increase the pay for what essentially is slave labour. Or, you could take away the incentive for your justice system to incarcerate indiscriminately and for as long as possible. The root of the problem is your "for profit" system for everything. Schools, prisons, you name it. As soon as something goes "for profit", you know that you should look very closely rather than away. "For profit" should be the synonym for "fuck people over". In fact, it is. There's no "for profit" institution that has the well being of their customers in mind. Which is fine, because as we say in germany, the shirt is closer to you than your trousers. Or, the company is more important than the customer. Problem arises once you give things like prisons to the private sector. Or healthcare. Or military. Things that shouldn't be for profit. Things that, if you look at them, think "that should be federal, not private". In regards to the very specific problem of not paying your prisoners properly, that's btw not an american problem. That's everywhere in the world. It's a loophole in which even federal institutions (as an example that i know of) like german prisons can make money - so they do. In germany they pay a third of the current minimum wage for low-skill labour stuff like putting screws into boxes (you know, those boxes/screw sets with 250 screws), putting them in direct competition with people who actually have a company that's supposed to be doing that. And which have to pay minimum wage. Prisons are rehabilitation centers. Or at least, that's what they're supposed to be. There absolutely should be programs to get people back on track after they leave (including work), but slave labour isn't one of them. I didn't actually expect anything less of a republican. The immediate "he didn't suggest that it would've stopped anything, his message is that disarming citizens can have detrimental consequences".. Is supposed to make it better, which i find even funnier. Just for some perspective we're talking between ~$0.23-$1.15/hr compared to a federal minimum wage of 7.25 or as high as $11.50 in Washington state or the ~$13/hr people make at comparable work to the unicore furniture joints Germany's minimum wage works out to ~$14-15 an hour (plus you have healthcare and infrastructure) So in effect your unskilled prison laborers are making just a little less than our minimum wage workers in the first place (but they have healthcare), let alone the prisoners that work for less than 1/5th of the minimum wage. P6's idea of just paying them more and the problem was solved was more ridiculous than it looks on it's face.
Unless you make prisoners pay for rent and food I cannot see how it's a fair comparison between prisoners and non-prisoners. To make it fair you would have to look into how much such things eat out of the minimum wage. I'm not saying it is fair compensation for prisoners atm but it is not as extreme as you make out.
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On March 01 2018 18:18 m4ini wrote:
Germanies minimum wage is around $11 (9 euros, iirc). Plus healthcare, not sure what you mean by infrastructure.
Rest is correct, but one should keep in mind that germany generally is very "pro-regulation", so the fact that prisons are using a loophole to make money (even if it's more than a US prisoner) is quite shocking to us.
Well.. Should be, anyway. In reality, the usual "well, they're prisoners, so who cares - there's a reason that they're there, no?" pretty much destroys any real debate that could be had to, for example, protect small business owners from "jail dumping prices". It's not just the prisoner that gets fucked by these dumping prices.
edit: the comparison between wages doesn't work out that well though because we have 20% VAT on everything.
My bad, read the wrong number for the wrong country. I guess I read you guys didn't even have a minimum wage until recently and had some horror story of some maid working for like $0.50/hr leading to the current one.
I think I saw your prisoners also get unemployment insurance?
On March 01 2018 18:20 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 18:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 01 2018 17:46 m4ini wrote:While i think that GH does have a point (and i rarely do nowadays), i feel like the problem starts somewhere else entirely. Yeah, you could increase the pay for what essentially is slave labour. Or, you could take away the incentive for your justice system to incarcerate indiscriminately and for as long as possible. The root of the problem is your "for profit" system for everything. Schools, prisons, you name it. As soon as something goes "for profit", you know that you should look very closely rather than away. "For profit" should be the synonym for "fuck people over". In fact, it is. There's no "for profit" institution that has the well being of their customers in mind. Which is fine, because as we say in germany, the shirt is closer to you than your trousers. Or, the company is more important than the customer. Problem arises once you give things like prisons to the private sector. Or healthcare. Or military. Things that shouldn't be for profit. Things that, if you look at them, think "that should be federal, not private". In regards to the very specific problem of not paying your prisoners properly, that's btw not an american problem. That's everywhere in the world. It's a loophole in which even federal institutions (as an example that i know of) like german prisons can make money - so they do. In germany they pay a third of the current minimum wage for low-skill labour stuff like putting screws into boxes (you know, those boxes/screw sets with 250 screws), putting them in direct competition with people who actually have a company that's supposed to be doing that. And which have to pay minimum wage. Prisons are rehabilitation centers. Or at least, that's what they're supposed to be. There absolutely should be programs to get people back on track after they leave (including work), but slave labour isn't one of them. I didn't actually expect anything less of a republican. The immediate "he didn't suggest that it would've stopped anything, his message is that disarming citizens can have detrimental consequences".. Is supposed to make it better, which i find even funnier. Just for some perspective we're talking between ~$0.23-$1.15/hr compared to a federal minimum wage of 7.25 or as high as $11.50 in Washington state or the ~$13/hr people make at comparable work to the unicore furniture joints Germany's minimum wage works out to ~$14-15 an hour (plus you have healthcare and infrastructure) So in effect your unskilled prison laborers are making just a little less than our minimum wage workers in the first place (but they have healthcare), let alone the prisoners that work for less than 1/5th of the minimum wage. P6's idea of just paying them more and the problem was solved was more ridiculous than it looks on it's face. Unless you make prisoners pay for rent and food I cannot see how it's a fair comparison between prisoners and non-prisoners. To make it fair you would have to look into how much such things eat out of the minimum wage. I'm not saying it is fair compensation for prisoners atm but it is not as extreme as you make out.
I mean the whole thing is morally bankrupt imo, so squabbling over how horribly they are being exploited is tangential to my problem with the bipartisan support of their exploitation, and the passive nature with which US liberals will throw fellow humans under the bus and it hardly raises a stir and brings out responses like "oh well if just payed them more, no biggie" like the whole thing isn't fubar.
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My bad, read the wrong number for the wrong country. I guess I read you guys didn't even have a minimum wage until recently and had some horror story of some maid working for like $0.50/hr leading to the current one.
I think I saw your prisoners also get unemployment insurance?
Since 2015, got raised in 2017 by a few pennies. No idea about the maid story, but i'm pretty sure they would've existed. Because it was possible, and if it's possible/legal, people do it.
As a small sidenote, minimum wage didn't have a negative impact on unemployment, winkwink.
And yes, they do get unemployment insurance, but they do not pay into their pensions fund.
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On March 01 2018 18:36 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +My bad, read the wrong number for the wrong country. I guess I read you guys didn't even have a minimum wage until recently and had some horror story of some maid working for like $0.50/hr leading to the current one.
I think I saw your prisoners also get unemployment insurance? Since 2015, got raised in 2017 by a few pennies. No idea about the maid story, but i'm pretty sure they would've existed. Because it was possible, and if it's possible/legal, people do it. As a small sidenote, minimum wage didn't have a negative impact on unemployment, winkwink. And yes, they do get unemployment insurance, but they do not pay into their pensions fund.
Admittedly I don't know much of anything about the German prison system and randomly googling unvetted sites in between games/work on minimum wage so I presume you're right about all that
I like how you clarified that they don't pay into their pension. That's something I wouldn't have even imagined as an American lol.
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On March 01 2018 18:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 18:36 m4ini wrote:My bad, read the wrong number for the wrong country. I guess I read you guys didn't even have a minimum wage until recently and had some horror story of some maid working for like $0.50/hr leading to the current one.
I think I saw your prisoners also get unemployment insurance? Since 2015, got raised in 2017 by a few pennies. No idea about the maid story, but i'm pretty sure they would've existed. Because it was possible, and if it's possible/legal, people do it. As a small sidenote, minimum wage didn't have a negative impact on unemployment, winkwink. And yes, they do get unemployment insurance, but they do not pay into their pensions fund. Admittedly I don't know much of anything about the German prison system and randomly googling unvetted sites in between games/work on minimum wage so I presume you're right about all that I like how you clarified that they don't pay into their pension. That's something I wouldn't have even imagined as an American lol.
Well the pension is a thing of tensions though. They're working, even if only low wage, so everywhere else legally they'd need to be paying into their pensions fund.
With prison work, they don't. So if they're in jail working for X amount of time, that X amount of time will not go into their pensions. Which in the end, makes them more likely (amongst all the other problems like having a bad police record/not finding work after prison) to sit on welfare after their 65th birthday.
That's a whole different can of worms in germany though, where even if you worked for 50 years (like my father) you barely get by after retirement.
To clarify, in germany we have a "pension insurance", for the lack of a better term. Mandatory for everyone who's working, or in the german welfare system.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetzliche_Rentenversicherung_(Deutschland)
(briefly checked, it's called german statutory pension insurance scheme)
It's some stupid legal limbo.
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That system matches up pretty closely with Social Security here in the states from what I can tell. Both are tough to live off without some additional income.
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If only he could have killed himself sooner so he wouldn't have wasted precious medical resources, right?
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/28/criminalization-of-debt-imprisonment-aclu-report/
On Christmas Eve in 2013, an out-of-work welder named Rex Iverson was rushed to a Utah hospital. He survived, but was hit with a hefty bill for the ambulance ride. There is a widespread assumption that that indigent patients never have to pay emergency room bills they can’t afford, and instead the cost is passed on to those with insurance.
But in fact, companies and municipalities pursue such debts aggressively. In Iverson’s case, the city operating the ambulance service won a $2,300 judgement against him in small claims court, but he had no wages to garnish. A judge issued a warrant for Iverson when he didn’t return to court to discuss the unpaid debt.
“We go to great lengths to never arrest anybody on these warrants,” Box Elder County Chief Deputy Sheriff Dale Ward later said. “But we make every effort to resolve the issues without making an arrest on a civil bench warrant. The reason we do that is we don’t want to run a debtors’ prison. There is no reason for someone to be rotting in jail on a bad debt.”
In January 2016, a deputy sheriff knocked on Iverson’s door and arrested him. The judge had set a $350 bail, which Iverson told jail officials he could not pay. Later the same day, Iverson, 45, was found dead in a holding cell, an all-too-common occurrence in American jails. An investigation determined that he had killed himself by ingesting strychnine poison.
The full Intercept article also links to an interesting report by the ACLU:
https://www.aclu.org/report/pound-flesh-criminalization-private-debt
This is the kind of thing that makes me think things like "corporatocracy" and "class- or economic warfare/terrorism".
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On March 01 2018 19:41 a_flayer wrote:If only he could have killed himself sooner so he wouldn't have wasted precious medical resources, right? https://theintercept.com/2018/02/28/criminalization-of-debt-imprisonment-aclu-report/Show nested quote +On Christmas Eve in 2013, an out-of-work welder named Rex Iverson was rushed to a Utah hospital. He survived, but was hit with a hefty bill for the ambulance ride. There is a widespread assumption that that indigent patients never have to pay emergency room bills they can’t afford, and instead the cost is passed on to those with insurance.
But in fact, companies and municipalities pursue such debts aggressively. In Iverson’s case, the city operating the ambulance service won a $2,300 judgement against him in small claims court, but he had no wages to garnish. A judge issued a warrant for Iverson when he didn’t return to court to discuss the unpaid debt.
“We go to great lengths to never arrest anybody on these warrants,” Box Elder County Chief Deputy Sheriff Dale Ward later said. “But we make every effort to resolve the issues without making an arrest on a civil bench warrant. The reason we do that is we don’t want to run a debtors’ prison. There is no reason for someone to be rotting in jail on a bad debt.”
In January 2016, a deputy sheriff knocked on Iverson’s door and arrested him. The judge had set a $350 bail, which Iverson told jail officials he could not pay. Later the same day, Iverson, 45, was found dead in a holding cell, an all-too-common occurrence in American jails. An investigation determined that he had killed himself by ingesting strychnine poison. The full Intercept article also links to an interesting report by the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/report/pound-flesh-criminalization-private-debtThis is the kind of thing that makes me think things like "corporatocracy" and "class- or economic warfare/terrorism".
This is beyond horrifying.
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On March 01 2018 19:23 farvacola wrote:
That system matches up pretty closely with Social Security here in the states from what I can tell. Both are tough to live off without some additional income.
Not generally. Social security is a different thing from the pension system. We do have that, too. The pension system is based on you paying into it while you work, and get money based on how long you worked and how much money you made afterwards. A lot of people do fine with the pension money, though there is a bit of a problem among people who didn't work all of their lives or had other problems having too small a pension.
Those usually go on social security (Hartz 4), which kinda sucks.
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Social Security benefits accessed around age 65 are determined by how long you've worked, the nature of the income you received while paying in, and a host of other factors? In addition to retirement SS, theres SSDIB (disability) and SSI (low income/misc. disability).
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On March 01 2018 19:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 19:41 a_flayer wrote:If only he could have killed himself sooner so he wouldn't have wasted precious medical resources, right? https://theintercept.com/2018/02/28/criminalization-of-debt-imprisonment-aclu-report/On Christmas Eve in 2013, an out-of-work welder named Rex Iverson was rushed to a Utah hospital. He survived, but was hit with a hefty bill for the ambulance ride. There is a widespread assumption that that indigent patients never have to pay emergency room bills they can’t afford, and instead the cost is passed on to those with insurance.
But in fact, companies and municipalities pursue such debts aggressively. In Iverson’s case, the city operating the ambulance service won a $2,300 judgement against him in small claims court, but he had no wages to garnish. A judge issued a warrant for Iverson when he didn’t return to court to discuss the unpaid debt.
“We go to great lengths to never arrest anybody on these warrants,” Box Elder County Chief Deputy Sheriff Dale Ward later said. “But we make every effort to resolve the issues without making an arrest on a civil bench warrant. The reason we do that is we don’t want to run a debtors’ prison. There is no reason for someone to be rotting in jail on a bad debt.”
In January 2016, a deputy sheriff knocked on Iverson’s door and arrested him. The judge had set a $350 bail, which Iverson told jail officials he could not pay. Later the same day, Iverson, 45, was found dead in a holding cell, an all-too-common occurrence in American jails. An investigation determined that he had killed himself by ingesting strychnine poison. The full Intercept article also links to an interesting report by the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/report/pound-flesh-criminalization-private-debtThis is the kind of thing that makes me think things like "corporatocracy" and "class- or economic warfare/terrorism". This is beyond horrifying.
And it won't change until the people who bear responsibility for this sort of thing (economic terrorism) feel the same kind of pressure as that man felt while he was in prison. I reckon that won't be until their head is stuck between two poles with a sharp bit of metal at the top coming down at a rapid pace. They have no concept of empathy, so they simply must be forced to feel the same kind of terror and helplessness as someone who is willing to kill himself over his economic troubles.
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On March 01 2018 19:41 a_flayer wrote:If only he could have killed himself sooner so he wouldn't have wasted precious medical resources, right? https://theintercept.com/2018/02/28/criminalization-of-debt-imprisonment-aclu-report/Show nested quote +On Christmas Eve in 2013, an out-of-work welder named Rex Iverson was rushed to a Utah hospital. He survived, but was hit with a hefty bill for the ambulance ride. There is a widespread assumption that that indigent patients never have to pay emergency room bills they can’t afford, and instead the cost is passed on to those with insurance.
But in fact, companies and municipalities pursue such debts aggressively. In Iverson’s case, the city operating the ambulance service won a $2,300 judgement against him in small claims court, but he had no wages to garnish. A judge issued a warrant for Iverson when he didn’t return to court to discuss the unpaid debt.
“We go to great lengths to never arrest anybody on these warrants,” Box Elder County Chief Deputy Sheriff Dale Ward later said. “But we make every effort to resolve the issues without making an arrest on a civil bench warrant. The reason we do that is we don’t want to run a debtors’ prison. There is no reason for someone to be rotting in jail on a bad debt.”
In January 2016, a deputy sheriff knocked on Iverson’s door and arrested him. The judge had set a $350 bail, which Iverson told jail officials he could not pay. Later the same day, Iverson, 45, was found dead in a holding cell, an all-too-common occurrence in American jails. An investigation determined that he had killed himself by ingesting strychnine poison. The full Intercept article also links to an interesting report by the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/report/pound-flesh-criminalization-private-debtThis is the kind of thing that makes me think things like "corporatocracy" and "class- or economic warfare/terrorism".
Far from the first story of this kind I've read. But let's just shout freedom a couple of times and I'm sure it'll fix itself.
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On March 01 2018 19:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 19:41 a_flayer wrote:If only he could have killed himself sooner so he wouldn't have wasted precious medical resources, right? https://theintercept.com/2018/02/28/criminalization-of-debt-imprisonment-aclu-report/On Christmas Eve in 2013, an out-of-work welder named Rex Iverson was rushed to a Utah hospital. He survived, but was hit with a hefty bill for the ambulance ride. There is a widespread assumption that that indigent patients never have to pay emergency room bills they can’t afford, and instead the cost is passed on to those with insurance.
But in fact, companies and municipalities pursue such debts aggressively. In Iverson’s case, the city operating the ambulance service won a $2,300 judgement against him in small claims court, but he had no wages to garnish. A judge issued a warrant for Iverson when he didn’t return to court to discuss the unpaid debt.
“We go to great lengths to never arrest anybody on these warrants,” Box Elder County Chief Deputy Sheriff Dale Ward later said. “But we make every effort to resolve the issues without making an arrest on a civil bench warrant. The reason we do that is we don’t want to run a debtors’ prison. There is no reason for someone to be rotting in jail on a bad debt.”
In January 2016, a deputy sheriff knocked on Iverson’s door and arrested him. The judge had set a $350 bail, which Iverson told jail officials he could not pay. Later the same day, Iverson, 45, was found dead in a holding cell, an all-too-common occurrence in American jails. An investigation determined that he had killed himself by ingesting strychnine poison. The full Intercept article also links to an interesting report by the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/report/pound-flesh-criminalization-private-debtThis is the kind of thing that makes me think things like "corporatocracy" and "class- or economic warfare/terrorism". This is beyond horrifying.
It has been a growing problem in the country. And getting people to pay attention to it and push for reforms has been a hard sell. To this day most people I talk to have this false impression that the criminal justice system by and large fair. And that is even with a massive evidence tampering scandal in the last 3 years. It is just not on people’s radar.
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Holy shit. Automatically opening video ads that pop to a seperate overlay when you quickly scroll past them are the new nominee for "world's most irritating ads"
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11589 Posts
On March 01 2018 22:56 Gorsameth wrote:John Oliver tried to draw attention to it almost 4 years ago + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY
John Oliver's done relatively good reporting on some under-the-radar stories, especially about predatory capitalist institutions that take advantage of people being poor to make money off of them in the most morally bankrupt ways imaginable.
There are others, such as his discussion of Multi-Level-Marketing companies and a segment on predatory lending, that come to mind when I think of things like this. Unfortunately most of America doesn't even give a shit. Sad part is, I even know a guy who is in one of these MLM things and see second-hand how they are fucking him over.
For a comedian, his segments are generally held to quite a high standard and cover a range of topics instead of just discussing the worst thing that's happened that week in Trumpland. He even makes the case for supporting more local reporting in one segment, which his writers and researchers heavily draw from in order to make their cases. Unfortunately, even local news stations and newspapers are not able to avoid the politicization and self-censoring of the larger media corporations, and as such, good local reporting is on the decline.
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EPT
