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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9960

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 22 2018 23:23 GMT
#199181
On February 23 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.

When debating in a public venue, the path of least resistance is the best way to convince tourneys audience of your argument’s merits, while avoiding the strongest counter arguments. A shrewd tactic.

Don't be silly. I don't duck anyone on the basis of the strength of their arguments, and Igne is certainly a far more capable poster than farvacola. It's obvious that there are other considerations in play here.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 22 2018 23:34 GMT
#199182
On February 23 2018 08:23 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.

When debating in a public venue, the path of least resistance is the best way to convince tourneys audience of your argument’s merits, while avoiding the strongest counter arguments. A shrewd tactic.

Don't be silly. I don't duck anyone on the basis of the strength of their arguments, and Igne is certainly a far more capable poster than farvacola. It's obvious that there are other considerations in play here.

I’m not convinced. Inge is capable, but also indulges your habit of pontificating on the shortcomings of progressive legal theory. He is also more than willing to enter into the weeds of legal theory where even I am hard pressed to follow. Which is intellectually stimulating, but also assured that no one will notice when you are called out on a particularly churlish argument or dated legal theory. Favr is far less indulgent and has the duel goal of countering your legal assertions and knocking you off the marble pedestal you are fond of shouting at us from.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-22 23:41:27
February 22 2018 23:40 GMT
#199183
This pairing of a refusal to respond and a "this poster is better than this poster, I'll only talk to the former" faux-ingratiating ploy has become the standard Dauntless modus operandi for quite some time now. The point remains that "textualists" and people who unironically identify with an "originalist" interpretive perspective routinely make a number of mistakes: 1) failing to acknowledge the enormous difficulty in actually getting a sense for how historical figures performed acts of interpretation, 2) misunderstanding the extent to which dedication to "the words on the page" is itself a highly arbitrary and context-beholden undertaking, and 3) ignoring the dynamic through which necessarily extratextual interpretive inferences/guidelines a la stare decisis and the canons of statutory interpretation a priori "poison the well" that textualism claims able to keep clean.

IgnE is a cool dude though, for sure.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5082 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-22 23:46:45
February 22 2018 23:45 GMT
#199184
I think it was IgnE who once said that Breyer's dissent was far more sound and hsitorically accurate than the majority opinion. But my memory could be wrong, that must have been years ago.

Presumably he could do it to the thread's satisfaction (the other thread).

But I like to use this and Citizens United to say that maybe the courts should be checked, or perhaps we wouldn't want to undo the sacred writ that is precedent?
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
February 22 2018 23:46 GMT
#199185
Why wouldn't you want to converse with farvacola? We disagree on almost everything, but he isn't particularily unpleasant in his manner or style.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 22 2018 23:47 GMT
#199186
On February 23 2018 08:34 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:23 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.

When debating in a public venue, the path of least resistance is the best way to convince tourneys audience of your argument’s merits, while avoiding the strongest counter arguments. A shrewd tactic.

Don't be silly. I don't duck anyone on the basis of the strength of their arguments, and Igne is certainly a far more capable poster than farvacola. It's obvious that there are other considerations in play here.

I’m not convinced. Inge is capable, but also indulges your habit of pontificating on the shortcomings of progressive legal theory. He is also more than willing to enter into the weeds of legal theory where even I am hard pressed to follow. Which is intellectually stimulating, but also assured that no one will notice when you are called out on a particularly churlish argument or dated legal theory. Favr is far less indulgent and has the duel goal of countering your legal assertions and knocking you off the marble pedestal you are fond of shouting at us from.

The fact that you think that I'm pointing out a "shortcoming" of progressive legal theory is telling and shows that you don't even understand what I posted. All I did was state what it was categorically, which is about as judgmental as saying "the sky is blue."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
February 22 2018 23:56 GMT
#199187
On February 23 2018 08:45 Introvert wrote:
I think it was IgnE who once said that Breyer's dissent was far more sound and hsitorically accurate than the majority opinion. But my memory could be wrong, that must have been years ago.

Presumably he could do it to the thread's satisfaction (the other thread).

But I like to use this and Citizens United to say that maybe the courts should be checked, or perhaps we wouldn't want to undo the sacred writ that is precedent?

Ehh, I'd wager that common law precedent is actually a pretty good vehicle for the procession of a society's legal framework and I think many of the issues facing the US can be attributed just as much to self-imposed judicial limitations as what one might call judicial overreach. The reach of the courts implicates different colors of politics depending on where it goes.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
February 22 2018 23:56 GMT
#199188
On February 23 2018 07:48 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 07:46 IyMoon wrote:
On February 23 2018 07:36 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 01:27 hunts wrote:
On February 23 2018 00:57 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 00:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Just realized that NRA is the GOP's armed paramilitary...


Wayne's not wrong.


Are you going to elaborate or just say something dumb and play your usual xdaunt game of "that's not what I said" "that's not what I meant" etc...?

Throw out the "saboteurs" language, and the statement is self-evident. The progressive foundation of democrat politics is predicated upon pushing society into a post-Constitutional state. The Constitution, as written and originally read, is an obstacle to progressive policy and its attendant government overreach. This is why progressives argue that the Constitution is a "living document." They need license to work around the Constitution's limitations.


Wouldn't the amendments to it show proof of it as a living document? If it was perfect from the start we wouldn't need any of them

No. The "living document" argument refers to how the Constitution should be interpreted -- namely that progressives, to avoid having to use the amendment process, simply try to reinterpret certain Constitutional provisions (like the 2nd Amendment or the commerce clause) to give them either no effect or a different effect.



Uh wasn't the extremist faction of the NRA that pushed for the 2nd amendment to be interpreted as it is today?
Never Knows Best.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-22 23:59:08
February 22 2018 23:58 GMT
#199189
On February 23 2018 08:47 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:23 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.

When debating in a public venue, the path of least resistance is the best way to convince tourneys audience of your argument’s merits, while avoiding the strongest counter arguments. A shrewd tactic.

Don't be silly. I don't duck anyone on the basis of the strength of their arguments, and Igne is certainly a far more capable poster than farvacola. It's obvious that there are other considerations in play here.

I’m not convinced. Inge is capable, but also indulges your habit of pontificating on the shortcomings of progressive legal theory. He is also more than willing to enter into the weeds of legal theory where even I am hard pressed to follow. Which is intellectually stimulating, but also assured that no one will notice when you are called out on a particularly churlish argument or dated legal theory. Favr is far less indulgent and has the duel goal of countering your legal assertions and knocking you off the marble pedestal you are fond of shouting at us from.

The fact that you think that I'm pointing out a "shortcoming" of progressive legal theory is telling and shows that you don't even understand what I posted. All I did was state what it was categorically, which is about as judgmental as saying "the sky is blue."

Pontification is not simply altering progressives to a flaw in their legal arguments. But I’m sure you are well aware of that. And if not, the imagery of marble pedestal should have cleared up any uncertainty. The merits of this specific argument was never the cause of my critique.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
February 23 2018 00:01 GMT
#199190
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.


I'm getting the impression that you don't notice Igne is usually making fun of you even when he's 'agreeing' with you.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 23 2018 00:05 GMT
#199191
On February 23 2018 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.


I'm getting the impression that you don't notice Igne is usually making fun of you even when he's 'agreeing' with you.

I don't like Igne because he agrees with me. He and I disagree on almost everything. I like Igne because he's an intelligent poster who reliably demonstrates comprehension of my posts (and others') before responding to them. His wit and "charm" are added bonuses.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5082 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 00:15:33
February 23 2018 00:14 GMT
#199192
On February 23 2018 08:56 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:45 Introvert wrote:
I think it was IgnE who once said that Breyer's dissent was far more sound and hsitorically accurate than the majority opinion. But my memory could be wrong, that must have been years ago.

Presumably he could do it to the thread's satisfaction (the other thread).

But I like to use this and Citizens United to say that maybe the courts should be checked, or perhaps we wouldn't want to undo the sacred writ that is precedent?

Ehh, I'd wager that common law precedent is actually a pretty good vehicle for the procession of a society's legal framework and I think many of the issues facing the US can be attributed just as much to self-imposed judicial limitations as what one might call judicial overreach. The reach of the courts implicates different colors of politics depending on where it goes.


For most things it's fine but I'd almost always prefer large decisions made by legislatures, who's work can be more easily reversed. It's one reason I find the supreme court fascinating.

I guess here I am just less fond of it than either progressives or libertarians who think the Courts are where we should go to hash out political questions. Although in the case of Heller I think one could argue that if the Court had any role in protecting constitutional rights that would be one of them

Besides Heller has apparently scared the Court so much that they are refusing to take more 2a cases, as Thomas points out every time they deny cert.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
February 23 2018 00:20 GMT
#199193
On February 23 2018 09:05 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 09:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.


I'm getting the impression that you don't notice Igne is usually making fun of you even when he's 'agreeing' with you.

I don't like Igne because he agrees with me. He and I disagree on almost everything. I like Igne because he's an intelligent poster who reliably demonstrates comprehension of my posts (and others') before responding to them. His wit and "charm" are added bonuses.


Fair enough, but I also mean he's insulting your argument, he's just usually insulting the arguments against yours as well. More often than not it's something along the lines "You guys don't understand why his position is dysfunctional, this is why it's dysfunctional" in a highfalutin way then you usually saying something to the effect "finally someone gets it!" Without really noticing what it was he said that undermined your point (or apparently noticing and just not addressing it).

I enjoy Igne's posts too and now that I'm further left than I was a few years ago I miss the old Igne that reflected the spirit of his sig in his posts more frequently. But I get the impression that while a lot of liberals distort your often vague positions, you don't realize that often your arguments are still badly formed and lack a cohesion to reality and/or history.

It's not a partisan thing or even personal, meaning it happens to the best of us, you, like the liberals you disdain, just seem to refuse to engage with it when it's legitimately pointed out.

That's not to say you never form coherent arguments, just that you're as bad as anyone when it comes to tucking in your shell and waiting for stuff to pass when you screw up.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
A3th3r
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
United States319 Posts
February 23 2018 00:32 GMT
#199194
the US needs to have a more coherent policy with regards to the middle east. I think that there is too much uncertainty & unrest in the region & that is playing into nationalist sentiments of extremist groups that exist in those places. Trying to contain Iran is a good step to prevent more disturbances from occurring.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/22/c_136989751.htm
stale trite schlub
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 00:41:22
February 23 2018 00:40 GMT
#199195
On February 23 2018 09:32 A3th3r wrote:
the US needs to have a more coherent policy with regards to the middle east. I think that there is too much uncertainty & unrest in the region & that is playing into nationalist sentiments of extremist groups that exist in those places. Trying to contain Iran is a good step to prevent more disturbances from occurring.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/22/c_136989751.htm


Feels weird to me to think that the US should have more influence around Iran and Russia than Iran and Russia. I mean I get they are problematic countries but we are too. Perhaps not in the same ways, but we kill a lot of civilians every year, we've replaced democratically elected leaders with favorable dictators, and have military bases surrounding Iran and to a lesser degree Russia.

I wouldn't want to live under Putin, but it's not like the US gives a shit about the Russian people, if Putin was pro-America they'd turn a blind eye to all the stuff they dislike about him, same for Iran. We need look no further than Saudi Arabia.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 00:42:44
February 23 2018 00:42 GMT
#199196
On February 23 2018 07:36 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 01:27 hunts wrote:
On February 23 2018 00:57 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 00:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Just realized that NRA is the GOP's armed paramilitary...

https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/966691696586166280

Wayne's not wrong.


Are you going to elaborate or just say something dumb and play your usual xdaunt game of "that's not what I said" "that's not what I meant" etc...?

Throw out the "saboteurs" language, and the statement is self-evident. The progressive foundation of democrat politics is predicated upon pushing society into a post-Constitutional state. The Constitution, as written and originally read, is an obstacle to progressive policy and its attendant government overreach. This is why progressives argue that the Constitution is a "living document." They need license to work around the Constitution's limitations.


So because they want to limit the access to assault weapons with large magazines and the ability for each bullet to go through 5 houses a car and 2 horses, they are post constitutional? Tell me again where the constitution says "the right to bear overly powerful arms without background checks or psych evaluations."

You have the nerve to speak about post constitutional without publicly shaming yourself for voting republican? Have you no sense of shame at all? The only time your people give any shits about the constitution is when they get to cry "but muh 2nd amendmunt! muh guns!" Aside from that they give no fucks about the law or the constitution as is evident by your glorious buffoon in chief and every single person around him.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
February 23 2018 00:47 GMT
#199197
On February 23 2018 09:42 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 07:36 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 01:27 hunts wrote:
On February 23 2018 00:57 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 00:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Just realized that NRA is the GOP's armed paramilitary...

https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/966691696586166280

Wayne's not wrong.


Are you going to elaborate or just say something dumb and play your usual xdaunt game of "that's not what I said" "that's not what I meant" etc...?

Throw out the "saboteurs" language, and the statement is self-evident. The progressive foundation of democrat politics is predicated upon pushing society into a post-Constitutional state. The Constitution, as written and originally read, is an obstacle to progressive policy and its attendant government overreach. This is why progressives argue that the Constitution is a "living document." They need license to work around the Constitution's limitations.


So because they want to limit the access to assault weapons with large magazines and the ability for each bullet to go through 5 houses a car and 2 horses, they are post constitutional? Tell me again where the constitution says "the right to bear overly powerful arms without background checks or psych evaluations."

You have the nerve to speak about post constitutional without publicly shaming yourself for voting republican? Have you no sense of shame at all? The only time your people give any shits about the constitution is when they get to cry "but muh 2nd amendmunt! muh guns!" Aside from that they give no fucks about the law or the constitution as is evident by your glorious buffoon in chief and every single person around him.


I wouldn't lecture people on lacking shame if I was you.

But there is a kernel of truth, as I've pointed out before, about the transparency of appealing to the constitution and people's inalienable rights for Republicans. It rings hollow to any of the millions of people who live in fear of their rights being deprived of them at any given moment because of folks like xDaunt's lack of concern with those among his side of the political aisle that view those rights as mutable.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-23 00:48:31
February 23 2018 00:48 GMT
#199198
On February 23 2018 08:47 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 08:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:23 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:16 Plansix wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:09 xDaunt wrote:
On February 23 2018 08:08 Plansix wrote:
The best part about these arguments is that the lawyer never responds directly to the other lawyer. Which isn't that far from how trials go, TBH.

I'm not really interested in responding to farvacola anymore. If the other liberal lawyer shows up (Igne), I'll be happy to talk with him.

When debating in a public venue, the path of least resistance is the best way to convince tourneys audience of your argument’s merits, while avoiding the strongest counter arguments. A shrewd tactic.

Don't be silly. I don't duck anyone on the basis of the strength of their arguments, and Igne is certainly a far more capable poster than farvacola. It's obvious that there are other considerations in play here.

I’m not convinced. Inge is capable, but also indulges your habit of pontificating on the shortcomings of progressive legal theory. He is also more than willing to enter into the weeds of legal theory where even I am hard pressed to follow. Which is intellectually stimulating, but also assured that no one will notice when you are called out on a particularly churlish argument or dated legal theory. Favr is far less indulgent and has the duel goal of countering your legal assertions and knocking you off the marble pedestal you are fond of shouting at us from.

The fact that you think that I'm pointing out a "shortcoming" of progressive legal theory is telling and shows that you don't even understand what I posted. All I did was state what it was categorically, which is about as judgmental as saying "the sky is blue."


The fact that you are characterizing your statement as categorical and essentially implying that it is a mere unbiased observation speaks volumes. Your statement was dripping with conservative bias and it says a lot about your intellectual integrity that you would try to pass it off as anything other than a backhanded shot at progressive legal theory.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 23 2018 01:01 GMT
#199199
On February 23 2018 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 09:32 A3th3r wrote:
the US needs to have a more coherent policy with regards to the middle east. I think that there is too much uncertainty & unrest in the region & that is playing into nationalist sentiments of extremist groups that exist in those places. Trying to contain Iran is a good step to prevent more disturbances from occurring.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/22/c_136989751.htm


Feels weird to me to think that the US should have more influence around Iran and Russia than Iran and Russia. I mean I get they are problematic countries but we are too. Perhaps not in the same ways, but we kill a lot of civilians every year, we've replaced democratically elected leaders with favorable dictators, and have military bases surrounding Iran and to a lesser degree Russia.

I wouldn't want to live under Putin, but it's not like the US gives a shit about the Russian people, if Putin was pro-America they'd turn a blind eye to all the stuff they dislike about him, same for Iran. We need look no further than Saudi Arabia.

Putin isn't going to become pro-America any time soon. And it has nothing to do with us being aggressive towards him. He is facing what appears to be a growing opposition movement in Russia and anger over corruption. On top of all the other reasons for trying to influence elections, Putin and his oligarchs want be able to point to the dysfunction of multiparty democracy. He needs the appearance of an outside influence "attacking" Russia to keep his grip of the nation's wealth and power. And we and NATO/the EU serve that role for him right now.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
February 23 2018 01:09 GMT
#199200
On February 23 2018 10:01 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2018 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 23 2018 09:32 A3th3r wrote:
the US needs to have a more coherent policy with regards to the middle east. I think that there is too much uncertainty & unrest in the region & that is playing into nationalist sentiments of extremist groups that exist in those places. Trying to contain Iran is a good step to prevent more disturbances from occurring.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/22/c_136989751.htm


Feels weird to me to think that the US should have more influence around Iran and Russia than Iran and Russia. I mean I get they are problematic countries but we are too. Perhaps not in the same ways, but we kill a lot of civilians every year, we've replaced democratically elected leaders with favorable dictators, and have military bases surrounding Iran and to a lesser degree Russia.

I wouldn't want to live under Putin, but it's not like the US gives a shit about the Russian people, if Putin was pro-America they'd turn a blind eye to all the stuff they dislike about him, same for Iran. We need look no further than Saudi Arabia.

Putin isn't going to become pro-America any time soon. And it has nothing to do with us being aggressive towards him. He is facing what appears to be a growing opposition movement in Russia and anger over corruption. On top of all the other reasons for trying to influence elections, Putin and his oligarchs want be able to point to the dysfunction of multiparty democracy. He needs the appearance of an outside influence "attacking" Russia to keep his grip of the nation's wealth and power. And we and NATO/the EU serve that role for him right now.


I don't think you understand my point? It was that the US wouldn't be halfway around the world to stop them from influencing a sea they have coastline of if he was pro-American and an even worse leader. Our opposition to Russia and Iran aren't that we don't like their political structure (again see Saudi Arabia) our problem is that they aren't subservient enough to US interests.

Ironically (though not really) our actions are actually emboldening him rather than weakening him as you say it's giving him exactly what he needs.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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