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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective.
You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions.
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On February 20 2018 02:41 Jockmcplop wrote:![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9MAabKh.jpg) Can we talk about how insane this pie chart is now? Everyone seems to be fairly unquestioning about the content of it and willing to draw conclusions from it. I wouldn't be so quick if I were you. Where are these figures coming from. I mean media coverage, for example, meant to influence the election could easily just be a made up figure plucked out of nowhere's ass. It says its estimated, but there is no explanation as to how it is estimated. So Lets just ignore the media figure for now because its meaningless. The other numbers are interesting (if they are even remotely fact based, which I doubt). They suggest that Russia spent 3% the amount that superPACs spent on influencing an American election. As far as i know superPACs' only function is to influence elections so I'm not sure these stats are serving the purpose they were designed for. I think its maybe better to ignore this chart altogether.
I agree completely. That graph is a terrific example of propaganda itself.
Notice the big, black and white, bold lettering and the complete lack of details. Solid colors. Big words. "Your preconceived notion was right, and doesn't need any further analysis!! You can slap this down in a discussion and go 'BOOM' at how incontrovertible it is."
And of course the source is "Unbiased America," with the word Unbiased highlighted for extra effect. "Anyone who disagrees with your preconceived notion is biased and their argument is invalid!! Also, it's from a source with America in the name so you know it must be legit and anyone who disagrees with you hates America."
To me, this literally looks like what a student doing a project on "What propaganda looks like" would turn in. Even looks like it was made in 10 minutes in Word / Paint.
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On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions.
Holy shit how are we back here already?
The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election.
ugh.. and now more speculative and mostly (when you ignore the hell out of The Elephant™) irrelevant theorycrafting.
vv
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On February 20 2018 03:48 TheTenthDoc wrote: What weirds me out is that the Mueller indictments indicate the operation had several wings that predominantly helped Trump (e.g. Twitter accounts pretending to be minorities and promoting hashtags encouraging individuals not to vote) as well as wings that fomented chaos, bitterness, and anger on both sides (e.g. nuking Rubio and co.). Heck, it even outright states that the operation transition from the latter more towards the former as time passed.
There's this tendency to depict "the Russians just wanted chaos" and "the Russians wanted a Trump victory" as two conflicting narratives when, as this indictment illustrates perfectly, they can exist side by side.
(I'll also add that the bizarre "did it swing the election for Trump???" on both conservative and liberal sides is utterly silly as someone who thinks looking at effects of separate exposures as "yes/no" is one heck of a silly thing)
I think the expectation of the people managing the operation was that they'd get Trump close and in the right places to be able to fuel all sorts of conspiracy about rigged election/ fake votes, though a win was unlikely. But then, some other things happened (with perhaps the most important being the letter about emails), and taking that and a dozen plus other interrelated events it was able to push Trump over the finish line.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. All those bad things you didn't like about the Democrats? The DWS matter, the Hillary historical record that made you disinclined to vote for her? I'm pretty sure all of those things played second fiddle to the couple million dollars of Russian propaganda that steered you away from the one true choice for president.
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On February 20 2018 04:14 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 03:48 TheTenthDoc wrote: What weirds me out is that the Mueller indictments indicate the operation had several wings that predominantly helped Trump (e.g. Twitter accounts pretending to be minorities and promoting hashtags encouraging individuals not to vote) as well as wings that fomented chaos, bitterness, and anger on both sides (e.g. nuking Rubio and co.). Heck, it even outright states that the operation transition from the latter more towards the former as time passed.
There's this tendency to depict "the Russians just wanted chaos" and "the Russians wanted a Trump victory" as two conflicting narratives when, as this indictment illustrates perfectly, they can exist side by side.
(I'll also add that the bizarre "did it swing the election for Trump???" on both conservative and liberal sides is utterly silly as someone who thinks looking at effects of separate exposures as "yes/no" is one heck of a silly thing) I think the expectation of the people managing the operation was that they'd get Trump close and in the right places to be able to fuel all sorts of conspiracy about rigged election/ fake votes, though a win was unlikely. But then, some other things happened (with perhaps the most important being the letter about emails), and taking that and a dozen plus other interrelated events it was able to push Trump over the finish line. I sometimes wonder if that would have been worse. I can’t think of a time where the losing candidate questioned the outcome of the election, especially one as prolific as Trump.
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On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election.
Just saying they helped push the divide even further. Obviously it was already happening. Can’t argue with that. The other thing noted is how else can Russia influence? Funneling cash into NRA then into politics?
http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1164511299515
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On February 20 2018 04:19 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. All those bad things you didn't like about the Democrats? The DWS matter, the Hillary historical record that made you disinclined to vote for her? I'm pretty sure all of those things played second fiddle to the couple million dollars of Russian propaganda that steered you away from the one true choice for president.
When they finally (god I hope they do one day) realize the level of gaslighting this shit is and what it takes to just keep on pushing through it I expect some fucking TL gold or something.
On February 20 2018 04:22 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. Just saying they helped push the divide even further. Obviously it was already happening. Can’t argue with that. The other thing noted is how else can Russia influence? Funneling cash into NRA then into politics? http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1164511299515
No, that's not what you said.
Russia "pushing Bernie" had a negligible effect regarding the divide based on the evidence I've seen so far, unless you have something new?
On February 20 2018 04:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. ugh.. and now more speculative and mostly (when you ignore the hell out of The Elephant™) irrelevant theorycrafting. vv You know it can be both, right? It's not "Russians singlehandedly caused a divide in the Democratic voting block"...
of course, though the phrasing and the constant talking about it makes it seem like it wasn't the inconsequential factor (as far as the dividing part) we've seen evidenced so far.
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On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. ugh.. and now more speculative and mostly (when you ignore the hell out of The Elephant™) irrelevant theorycrafting. vv You know it can be both, right?
It's not "Russians singlehandedly caused a divide in the Democratic voting block"...
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 20 2018 04:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. ugh.. and now more speculative and mostly (when you ignore the hell out of The Elephant™) irrelevant theorycrafting. vv You know it can be both, right? It's not "Russians singlehandedly caused a divide in the Democratic voting block"... Maybe /r/the_donald and my FB friends that didn’t like Hillary also played a part. You can’t just pin major issues on these things, you have to obsessively chase after all side issues that played a minuscule role in it all.
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On February 20 2018 04:19 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. All those bad things you didn't like about the Democrats? The DWS matter, the Hillary historical record that made you disinclined to vote for her? I'm pretty sure all of those things played second fiddle to the couple million dollars of Russian propaganda that steered you away from the one true choice for president. No. You silly Russian troll. If every time you heard Ben Ghazi and emails pushed you slightly away from Clinton, what the Russians did was simply up that counter. If you figured what DWS did wasn't that bad, then there were a few more memes painting her as the devil incarnate.
What *exactly* the influence of this was is incredibly hard to find out, but it wasn't none (and it also wasn't "Russian trolls singlehandedly sunk Hillary"). Whether their non-zero effect is a cause for concern? Depends on who you ask. GH thinks (very vocally) it's negligible in comparison to larger concerns about money in politics, and to a certain extent I agree (not because I think it's not bad, but because the way of solving the larger concern also reduces how Russia can influence elections: ending citizens United, and making Twitter bots illegal would be a great start, but it's far from easy to legislate. The latter would probably mean an end to anonimity on the internet, which I don't think is a bad thing anyway).
Regardless of whether you think it is negligible or huge; if Trump knew about it and participated, that would be illegal.
E: glad this neatly addresses your latest reply too.
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On February 20 2018 03:48 TheTenthDoc wrote: What weirds me out is that the Mueller indictments indicate the operation had several wings that predominantly helped Trump (e.g. Twitter accounts pretending to be minorities and promoting hashtags encouraging individuals not to vote) as well as wings that fomented chaos, bitterness, and anger on both sides (e.g. nuking Rubio and co.). Heck, it even outright states that the operation transition from the latter more towards the former as time passed.
There's this tendency to depict "the Russians just wanted chaos" and "the Russians wanted a Trump victory" as two conflicting narratives when, as this indictment illustrates perfectly, they can exist side by side.
(I'll also add that the bizarre "did it swing the election for Trump???" on both conservative and liberal sides is utterly silly as someone who thinks looking at effects of separate exposures as "yes/no" is one heck of a silly thing) Good post.
Good legal read on the subject:
+ Show Spoiler +The special counsel’s indictment of Russian individuals and organizations brought campaign finance law for the first time into formal charges in the case. But this development came with a mystery. The indictment alleges facts that support charges of federal campaign finance law violations—such as the prohibition on foreign national contributions—but does not charge any such offenses. This is clearly not for want of evidence, since the indictment sets out in considerable detail the millions in foreign national spending to influence the 2016 election. Yet Bob Mueller omitted any direct charge for violations of the Federal Election Campaign Act.
Instead, the indictment builds the campaign finance issues into a conspiracy to defraud the United States—it alleges that the Russians conspired to obstruct the capacity of the Federal Election Commission (FEC) to enforce the law. The act of obstruction was a failure to report their illegal expenditures. If the FEC did not know about the expenditures, it could not enforce the law.
Now, of course, those engaged in illegal campaign finance activity, such as spending from foreign national sources, won’t ever make an exception and comply with self-incriminating reporting requirements. And the irony of the premise–that the FEC would get the job done if given the needed facts–will not be lost on those who have observed the agency’s decline. But there is a theory, of course, behind the structure of the charges, and it might hold a clue to what comes next in the campaign finance phase of the case.
Mueller and his team may have concluded that straight statutory campaign finance allegations rest on too much untested ground and would complicate what may well be the next phase of their investigation. This consideration would not affect the foreign national side of the case: Foreign nationals are plainly prohibited from spending in the manner detailed in the indictment. But how the law reaches American co-conspirators is less certain, and the special counsel’s theory of the case, pleading the campaign finance aspect of the case through conspiracy-to-defraud, may allow more securely for the prosecution of American actors.
In other words, if Mueller’s case for campaign finance violations affected only Russians, there would be no obvious reason to exclude Federal Election Campaign Act violations from the indictment. Russians spent substantial sums to influence an election, as expressly laid out in the charging document, and this is an unambiguous violation of federal law. If, however, Mueller possesses evidence of Americans’ complicity in these violations, he may have decided on a different theory of the campaign finance case that more reliably sweeps in U.S. citizen misconduct.
On the face of it, the law prohibits a U.S. campaign or person from “soliciting” something “of value” from a foreign national, and it bars rendering “substantial assistance” to illegal foreign national spending. It seems clear that the facts known to date implicate these rules. It is also true that there is little precedent and arguably an increased risk of a defense grounded in the “vagueness” of these prohibitions. Some commentators have expressed unease about the constitutional limiting principle that would govern the enforcement of these provisions. I do not share this view, but it is held strongly in some quarters and, therefore, appropriately and respectfully noted.
The Mueller indictment is conceivably one way to solve this problem. It alleges a conspiracy to prevent the FEC from taking up and addressing the regulatory issues, and American co-conspirators may be brought in on any overt act in furtherance of this illegal scheme. Any U.S. citizen who intentionally supported the Russian electoral intervention could be liable. Examples would include U.S. citizens engaged in conversations like those in Trump Tower in summer of 2016, or Don, Jr.’s communications with WikiLeaks about the timing of the release of stolen emails. The conspiracy to defraud the United States could also envelop any Americans who helped cover the Russians’ illegal electoral program by lying to federal authorities about the campaign’s Russian contacts.
The special counsel may well have concluded that he could deal with any instances of U.S. citizen complicity without getting bogged down in unresolved questions of what constitutes “soliciting” support or providing the foreign national with “substantial assistance.” In sum, Mr. Mueller and his team may have adopted this theory of the case to facilitate the charging of Americans who helped their Russian allies interfere in the 2016 election. This is most plausible solution to the Mueller indictment mystery. (Bob Bauer) https://www.justsecurity.org/52610/charging-mystery-russia-indictments-and-indication-mueller-investigation/
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I have so many questions. Why are they in a ziplock bag? Where did they come from? Why are they all folded like a note from high school?
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At this point I almost hope Mueller hid that he has a terminal illness that is going to suddenly kill him right before some critical moment so we can get some good wild theories about the investigation instead of the boring stuff we've been getting.
Not that I wish ill on the man, but they seem about equally inevitable (death and more wild theories).
Great googly moogly.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
This dickbag isn't even praying he's just taking them like he's fucking god or going to pass them to him? I can't with this country today.
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This is easily one of the most disrespectful responses to a school shooting I've ever seen. Might as well take a golden shower on the coffins too.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On February 20 2018 04:38 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2018 04:19 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 04:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2018 04:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 03:13 LegalLord wrote:On February 20 2018 02:47 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 20 2018 02:29 LegalLord wrote: Well that money spent on "influence" certainly rocked the liberal media to their core. I suppose if nothing else that counts as a successful influence since it's the only story they still seem to know how to tell. It's not just the liberal media, it's both... Cool, then that small investment of a couple million dollars was even more effective. You forget that we have evidence that Russia also pushed Bernie to divide the democrats which it did. There were many people who voted Bernie then voted Trump. Those are the people that are second guessing their actions. Holy shit how are we back here already? The Democrats divided the Democrats. As is so painfully evident this far after the election. All those bad things you didn't like about the Democrats? The DWS matter, the Hillary historical record that made you disinclined to vote for her? I'm pretty sure all of those things played second fiddle to the couple million dollars of Russian propaganda that steered you away from the one true choice for president. No. You silly Russian troll. If every time you heard Ben Ghazi and emails pushed you slightly away from Clinton, what the Russians did was simply up that counter. If you figured what DWS did wasn't that bad, then there were a few more memes painting her as the devil incarnate. What *exactly* the influence of this was is incredibly hard to find out, but it wasn't none (and it also wasn't "Russian trolls singlehandedly sunk Hillary"). Whether their non-zero effect is a cause for concern? Depends on who you ask. GH thinks (very vocally) it's negligible in comparison to larger concerns about money in politics, and to a certain extent I agree (not because I think it's not bad, but because the way of solving the larger concern also reduces how Russia can influence elections: ending citizens United, and making Twitter bots illegal would be a great start, but it's far from easy to legislate. The latter would probably mean an end to anonimity on the internet, which I don't think is a bad thing anyway). Regardless of whether you think it is negligible or huge; if Trump knew about it and participated, that would be illegal. E: glad this neatly addresses your latest reply too. Cool. Let’s obsessively cover every attempt to up that counter and speak about the unprecedented influence campaign that spread the memes around like everyone else. Let us talk about how badly Democracy™ has been destroyed by slightly exacerbating existing issues and small monetary injections that pale in comparison to the spending by candidates and their associates (wow those PutinBots are efficient!). Let’s subtly and not-so-subtly imply that anyone and everyone who agrees in part or in full with the fairly common talking points used in this unprecedented influence campaign is just a useful idiot who isn’t able to understand why they should have just voted for the One True Candidate.
If Trump or associates broke the law, I’m sure the investigation and following trial will provision them with a gulag proportionate to the crime committed. In the meantime let’s wildly speculate about who did what and pay no attention to the tendency of these “bombshell” connections to be debunked as often as not. We cannot wait for justice to run its course.
/s
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On February 20 2018 05:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is easily one of the most disrespectful responses to a school shooting I've ever seen. Might as well take a golden shower on the coffins too.
Yeah but it'll piss off them liberals. Don't you know his voters love libtard tears? What better way than to find that sweet sweet nectar than to laugh over the graves of dead children?
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On February 20 2018 04:51 Plansix wrote: I have so many questions. Why are they in a ziplock bag? Where did they come from? Why are they all folded like a note from high school?
Most importantly, why do they have enormous shit-eating grins on their faces mugging for a photo? I can imagine ways this could be executed adequately but just ugh...
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