• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:11
CEST 02:11
KST 09:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202561RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings The StarCraft 2 GOAT - An in-depth analysis #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time EWC 2025 details: $700k total prize; GSL, DH Dallas confirmed Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BITCOIN RECOVERY EXPERT | LOST RECOVERY MASTERS BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 656 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9751

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 9749 9750 9751 9752 9753 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 21:47:30
January 21 2018 21:46 GMT
#195001
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents/not deported rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 21:49:57
January 21 2018 21:48 GMT
#195002
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.

Edit: if we really want to use the argument that we shouldn't punish children for the parents' crimes then certainly we can't endorse the idea of rewarding parents and other family members for their lawbreaking.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 21:53:36
January 21 2018 21:52 GMT
#195003
On January 22 2018 06:45 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


So long as every service-tier job that can't be outsourced in this country isn't filled with a PoC/robot it's always going to be the position of corporations (and therefore their politicians) to have more immigrants. Ideally, immigrants constantly in fear of being forcibly removed while being exploited.


People forget, many of the pro-dream Republicans are doing so because their donors are fans of it. I thought we were supposed to oppose such things. Why not support policies that stop the importation of exploitable wage labor? Sounds like an argument a lefty could get behind.


You want to nip this stuff in the bud start putting people who hire undocumented workers (with laser focus on those at exploitative wages) in federal prison. A hellova lot cheaper and more effective than border security.

I'm too far left now for that personally, but it's not going to happen because our politicians owners don't want it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 21:54:52
January 21 2018 21:53 GMT
#195004
On January 22 2018 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:45 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


So long as every service-tier job that can't be outsourced in this country isn't filled with a PoC/robot it's always going to be the position of corporations (and therefore their politicians) to have more immigrants. Ideally, immigrants constantly in fear of being forcibly removed while being exploited.


People forget, many of the pro-dream Republicans are doing so because their donors are fans of it. I thought we were supposed to oppose such things. Why not support policies that stop the importation of exploitable wage labor? Sounds like an argument a lefty could get behind.


You want to nip this stuff in the bud start putting people who hire illegal immigrants (with laser focus on those at exploitative wages) in federal prison. A hellova lot cheaper and more effective than border security.

I'm too far left now for that personally, but it's not going to happen because our politicians owners don't want it.


Well I too would go after employers who knowingly violate the law, so I guess that's something.

Edit: Post 3000!

Cool icon, although I really liked the last one.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 21:55:22
January 21 2018 21:54 GMT
#195005
On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.


I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents. Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent for a green card.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 21:59:28
January 21 2018 21:55 GMT
#195006
On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.


I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent.


The legalized will become citizens one day.

Edit: also, I was looking here: https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/family-preference , but it says the same thing.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:09:08
January 21 2018 21:57 GMT
#195007
On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.


I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent.


The legalized will become citizens one day.


That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed.

Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident.

Edit: There's the .gov link here discussing it.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:03:07
January 21 2018 21:59 GMT
#195008
On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.

it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it).


They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border.

do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective?
I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law.

my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:04:16
January 21 2018 21:59 GMT
#195009
On January 22 2018 06:53 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:45 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


So long as every service-tier job that can't be outsourced in this country isn't filled with a PoC/robot it's always going to be the position of corporations (and therefore their politicians) to have more immigrants. Ideally, immigrants constantly in fear of being forcibly removed while being exploited.


People forget, many of the pro-dream Republicans are doing so because their donors are fans of it. I thought we were supposed to oppose such things. Why not support policies that stop the importation of exploitable wage labor? Sounds like an argument a lefty could get behind.


You want to nip this stuff in the bud start putting people who hire illegal immigrants (with laser focus on those at exploitative wages) in federal prison. A hellova lot cheaper and more effective than border security.

I'm too far left now for that personally, but it's not going to happen because our politicians owners don't want it.


Well I too would go after employers who knowingly violate the law, so I guess that's something.


You'll have a better chance getting the giant plexi American Gladiators eliminator wall than you do getting congress to crackdown on the profiteers of exploited immigrants.

EDIT: Actually I think we should just set up a grand eliminator at the border with intellectual tests of skill as well and just turn immigration into a 24hr network.

Hell, we should probably make people who leave the country do it to get back in too.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9618 Posts
January 21 2018 22:07 GMT
#195010
hard to argue that, who wants to leave a country unless it’s a shithole anyway, am i right?
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:16:14
January 21 2018 22:11 GMT
#195011
On January 22 2018 06:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.


I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent.


The legalized will become citizens one day.


That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed.

Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident.


Since there wasn't an actual bill I've seen stories that say both. I'm pretty sure the "gang of six" bill did not limit chain migration after 10 years, but Graham-Durbin is more tentative.

In any case, I think the framework of "Dreamers on condition of making sure it doesn't happen again" is a very useful and fair once, since theoretically no one should want this to happen again.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:13:27
January 21 2018 22:13 GMT
#195012
On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.

it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it).


They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border.

do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective?
I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law.

my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.


All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42654 Posts
January 21 2018 22:16 GMT
#195013
Dreamers should happen again, it's good policy. If children grow up in the United States, get educated in US schools paid for by US taxpayers, get treated in US hospitals, drive on US roads etc, then they should absolutely live, work, and pay taxes in America.

The US shouldn't be inviting children of the world to come to the US. But the children that get here anyway should definitely be kept. We spent good money turning those into American children and now you want to send them back to a country they don't even remember? It's idiocy.

American citizenship doesn't define being an American. I could get American citizenship in a few years but it won't make me more American than someone who was here from infancy.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:18:02
January 21 2018 22:16 GMT
#195014
On January 22 2018 07:11 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.


I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent.


The legalized will become citizens one day.


That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed.

Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident.


Since there wasn't an actual bill I've seen stories that say both. I'm pretty sure the "gang of six" bill did not, but Graham-Durbin is more tentative.

In any case, I think the framework of "Dreamers on condition of making sure it doesn't happen again" is a very useful and fair once, since theoretically no one should want this to happen again.


Yeah, I think a DREAM bill that gave the permanent residency contingent on waiving the right to sponsor parents after citizenship would be the best solution (DACA alone just waiving action in perpetuity is a tremendous waste of resources). I'm not sure how much Dem opposition there would be to it in the Senate though; I am skeptical it could be filibustered at least.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 21 2018 22:16 GMT
#195015
On January 22 2018 07:13 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.

it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it).


They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border.

do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective?
I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law.

my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.


All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out.

that's the kind of thing that makes me doubtful they're serious about it. they've had control of congress for a few years; sure their law would get filibustered/vetoed, but then they could say they tried, AND they clearly don't mind submitting laws that will get filibustered/vetoed based on how many times they did it on obamacare. if they're serious, why don't they have an actual bill on it?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
January 21 2018 22:17 GMT
#195016
On January 22 2018 07:16 KwarK wrote:
Dreamers should happen again, it's good policy. If children grow up in the United States, get educated in US schools paid for by US taxpayers, get treated in US hospitals, drive on US roads etc, then they should absolutely live, work, and pay taxes in America.

The US shouldn't be inviting children of the world to come to the US. But the children that get here anyway should definitely be kept. We spent good money turning those into American children and now you want to send them back to a country they don't even remember? It's idiocy.

American citizenship doesn't define being an American. I could get American citizenship in a few years but it won't make me more American than someone who was here from infancy.


That's not the point I'm arguing. We need to make sure that we don't get to another situation where we have hundreds of thousands of people brought here by their parents illegally when are they young.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
January 21 2018 22:18 GMT
#195017
On January 22 2018 07:16 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 07:13 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.

it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it).


They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border.

do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective?
I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law.

my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.


All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out.

that's the kind of thing that makes me doubtful they're serious about it. they've had control of congress for a few years; sure their law would get filibustered/vetoed, but then they could say they tried, AND they clearly don't mind submitting laws that will get filibustered/vetoed based on how many times they did it on obamacare. if they're serious, why don't they have an actual bill on it?


Because that isn't how these negotiations work? Neither the Dream lovers or critics have an actual bill yet. Are neither of them serious?
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:24:46
January 21 2018 22:21 GMT
#195018
On January 22 2018 07:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 07:11 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.


Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).

Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?


That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.


I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent.


The legalized will become citizens one day.


That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed.

Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident.


Since there wasn't an actual bill I've seen stories that say both. I'm pretty sure the "gang of six" bill did not, but Graham-Durbin is more tentative.

In any case, I think the framework of "Dreamers on condition of making sure it doesn't happen again" is a very useful and fair once, since theoretically no one should want this to happen again.


Yeah, I think a DREAM bill that gave the permanent residency contingent on waiving the right to sponsor parents after citizenship would be the best solution (DACA alone just waiving action in perpetuity is a tremendous waste of resources). I'm not sure how much Dem opposition there would be to it in the Senate though; I am skeptical it could be filibustered at least.


They should lose the right to sponsor anyone and make that very clear, but yes. So we've got one condition. Now we need at least some border security. I personally could jettison E-verify for now, but you see can the issues.

Edit: Some people want this deal to address chain migration in general, and while I would love that I'm not sure it's realistic. Maybe leave that to when we deal with the other MILLIONS of illegal immigrants.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42654 Posts
January 21 2018 22:28 GMT
#195019
On January 22 2018 07:17 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 07:16 KwarK wrote:
Dreamers should happen again, it's good policy. If children grow up in the United States, get educated in US schools paid for by US taxpayers, get treated in US hospitals, drive on US roads etc, then they should absolutely live, work, and pay taxes in America.

The US shouldn't be inviting children of the world to come to the US. But the children that get here anyway should definitely be kept. We spent good money turning those into American children and now you want to send them back to a country they don't even remember? It's idiocy.

American citizenship doesn't define being an American. I could get American citizenship in a few years but it won't make me more American than someone who was here from infancy.


That's not the point I'm arguing. We need to make sure that we don't get to another situation where we have hundreds of thousands of people brought here by their parents illegally when are they young.

That's a separate and unrelated issue though. Refusing to do something that both sides agree is good policy unless you get your way on a different, much more complicated and divisive issue is absurd.

The fact that the differing political schools of thought can't agree on how to solve illegal immigration does not mean that they should deliberate refuse to solve problems they do agree on like what to do with non citizens who were raised here.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-21 22:31:19
January 21 2018 22:28 GMT
#195020
On January 22 2018 07:18 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2018 07:16 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 07:13 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:
On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.

The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.

The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.

it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it).


They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border.

do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective?
I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law.

my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.


All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out.

that's the kind of thing that makes me doubtful they're serious about it. they've had control of congress for a few years; sure their law would get filibustered/vetoed, but then they could say they tried, AND they clearly don't mind submitting laws that will get filibustered/vetoed based on how many times they did it on obamacare. if they're serious, why don't they have an actual bill on it?


Because that isn't how these negotiations work? Neither the Dream lovers or critics have an actual bill yet. Are neither of them serious?

again, so what? they didn't mind trying to repeal obamacare a jillion times; why don't they have a bill on this?
they have enough votes that they can force the dems to filibuster it, so why don't they do that?
also the dream act is an actual fleshed out bill, so your claim is simply false there, and makes it sounds like you haven' tpaid much attention. I mean that's literally why it's called the dream ACT, because it's an actual proposal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act

if you're serious, why not take the time to craft an actual legislative proposal? then you can have it ready in case you get the votes you need.

also, whether or no tdems are serious isn't even relevant to the question at hand.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Prev 1 9749 9750 9751 9752 9753 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 49m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 170
Dota 2
monkeys_forever661
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2550
flusha409
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King196
AZ_Axe134
Other Games
tarik_tv23296
summit1g11784
gofns8943
C9.Mang0215
ViBE179
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick800
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 86
• RyuSc2 45
• davetesta41
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 42
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4106
Other Games
• imaqtpie895
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
9h 49m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
13h 49m
CSO Cup
15h 49m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
17h 49m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 8h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 13h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 17h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.