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On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position.
Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents/not deported rather than citizens (so they can't even vote).
Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?
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On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate?
That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.
Edit: if we really want to use the argument that we shouldn't punish children for the parents' crimes then certainly we can't endorse the idea of rewarding parents and other family members for their lawbreaking.
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On January 22 2018 06:45 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. So long as every service-tier job that can't be outsourced in this country isn't filled with a PoC/robot it's always going to be the position of corporations (and therefore their politicians) to have more immigrants. Ideally, immigrants constantly in fear of being forcibly removed while being exploited. People forget, many of the pro-dream Republicans are doing so because their donors are fans of it. I thought we were supposed to oppose such things. Why not support policies that stop the importation of exploitable wage labor? Sounds like an argument a lefty could get behind.
You want to nip this stuff in the bud start putting people who hire undocumented workers (with laser focus on those at exploitative wages) in federal prison. A hellova lot cheaper and more effective than border security.
I'm too far left now for that personally, but it's not going to happen because our politicians owners don't want it.
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On January 22 2018 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:45 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. So long as every service-tier job that can't be outsourced in this country isn't filled with a PoC/robot it's always going to be the position of corporations (and therefore their politicians) to have more immigrants. Ideally, immigrants constantly in fear of being forcibly removed while being exploited. People forget, many of the pro-dream Republicans are doing so because their donors are fans of it. I thought we were supposed to oppose such things. Why not support policies that stop the importation of exploitable wage labor? Sounds like an argument a lefty could get behind. You want to nip this stuff in the bud start putting people who hire illegal immigrants (with laser focus on those at exploitative wages) in federal prison. A hellova lot cheaper and more effective than border security. I'm too far left now for that personally, but it's not going to happen because our politicians owners don't want it.
Well I too would go after employers who knowingly violate the law, so I guess that's something.
Edit: Post 3000!
Cool icon, although I really liked the last one.
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On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate? That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents.
I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents. Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent for a green card.
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On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate? That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents. I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent.
The legalized will become citizens one day.
Edit: also, I was looking here: https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/family-preference , but it says the same thing.
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On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate? That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents. I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent. The legalized will become citizens one day.
That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed.
Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident.
Edit: There's the .gov link here discussing it.
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On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it). They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border.
do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective?
I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law.
my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.
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On January 22 2018 06:53 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 22 2018 06:45 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. So long as every service-tier job that can't be outsourced in this country isn't filled with a PoC/robot it's always going to be the position of corporations (and therefore their politicians) to have more immigrants. Ideally, immigrants constantly in fear of being forcibly removed while being exploited. People forget, many of the pro-dream Republicans are doing so because their donors are fans of it. I thought we were supposed to oppose such things. Why not support policies that stop the importation of exploitable wage labor? Sounds like an argument a lefty could get behind. You want to nip this stuff in the bud start putting people who hire illegal immigrants (with laser focus on those at exploitative wages) in federal prison. A hellova lot cheaper and more effective than border security. I'm too far left now for that personally, but it's not going to happen because our politicians owners don't want it. Well I too would go after employers who knowingly violate the law, so I guess that's something.
You'll have a better chance getting the giant plexi American Gladiators eliminator wall than you do getting congress to crackdown on the profiteers of exploited immigrants.
EDIT: Actually I think we should just set up a grand eliminator at the border with intellectual tests of skill as well and just turn immigration into a 24hr network.
Hell, we should probably make people who leave the country do it to get back in too.
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hard to argue that, who wants to leave a country unless it’s a shithole anyway, am i right?
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On January 22 2018 06:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate? That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents. I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent. The legalized will become citizens one day. That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed. Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident.
Since there wasn't an actual bill I've seen stories that say both. I'm pretty sure the "gang of six" bill did not limit chain migration after 10 years, but Graham-Durbin is more tentative.
In any case, I think the framework of "Dreamers on condition of making sure it doesn't happen again" is a very useful and fair once, since theoretically no one should want this to happen again.
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On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it). They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border. do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective? I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law. my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor.
All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out.
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United States42004 Posts
Dreamers should happen again, it's good policy. If children grow up in the United States, get educated in US schools paid for by US taxpayers, get treated in US hospitals, drive on US roads etc, then they should absolutely live, work, and pay taxes in America.
The US shouldn't be inviting children of the world to come to the US. But the children that get here anyway should definitely be kept. We spent good money turning those into American children and now you want to send them back to a country they don't even remember? It's idiocy.
American citizenship doesn't define being an American. I could get American citizenship in a few years but it won't make me more American than someone who was here from infancy.
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On January 22 2018 07:11 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate? That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents. I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent. The legalized will become citizens one day. That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed. Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident. Since there wasn't an actual bill I've seen stories that say both. I'm pretty sure the "gang of six" bill did not, but Graham-Durbin is more tentative. In any case, I think the framework of "Dreamers on condition of making sure it doesn't happen again" is a very useful and fair once, since theoretically no one should want this to happen again.
Yeah, I think a DREAM bill that gave the permanent residency contingent on waiving the right to sponsor parents after citizenship would be the best solution (DACA alone just waiving action in perpetuity is a tremendous waste of resources). I'm not sure how much Dem opposition there would be to it in the Senate though; I am skeptical it could be filibustered at least.
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On January 22 2018 07:13 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it). They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border. do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective? I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law. my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor. All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out.
that's the kind of thing that makes me doubtful they're serious about it. they've had control of congress for a few years; sure their law would get filibustered/vetoed, but then they could say they tried, AND they clearly don't mind submitting laws that will get filibustered/vetoed based on how many times they did it on obamacare. if they're serious, why don't they have an actual bill on it?
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On January 22 2018 07:16 KwarK wrote:
Dreamers should happen again, it's good policy. If children grow up in the United States, get educated in US schools paid for by US taxpayers, get treated in US hospitals, drive on US roads etc, then they should absolutely live, work, and pay taxes in America.
The US shouldn't be inviting children of the world to come to the US. But the children that get here anyway should definitely be kept. We spent good money turning those into American children and now you want to send them back to a country they don't even remember? It's idiocy.
American citizenship doesn't define being an American. I could get American citizenship in a few years but it won't make me more American than someone who was here from infancy.
That's not the point I'm arguing. We need to make sure that we don't get to another situation where we have hundreds of thousands of people brought here by their parents illegally when are they young.
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On January 22 2018 07:16 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 07:13 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it). They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border. do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective? I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law. my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor. All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out. that's the kind of thing that makes me doubtful they're serious about it. they've had control of congress for a few years; sure their law would get filibustered/vetoed, but then they could say they tried, AND they clearly don't mind submitting laws that will get filibustered/vetoed based on how many times they did it on obamacare. if they're serious, why don't they have an actual bill on it?
Because that isn't how these negotiations work? Neither the Dream lovers or critics have an actual bill yet. Are neither of them serious?
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On January 22 2018 07:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 07:11 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:55 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:48 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:46 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. Does any part of the Flake DREAM stuff actually allow them to sponsor their families to immigrate? It definitely isn't part of the core DACA, which just allows them to become lawful permanent residents rather than citizens (so they can't even vote). Unless you're saying that it's de facto sponsoring because they can be legal immigrants, their family can go home and then potentially immigrate? That's already in the law as it is, which is the problem. I'm pretty sure even legal permanent residents can sponsor family members to become legal permanent residents. I think that only works with spouses and minor children, not parents? Citizenpath says you have to full naturalize to be able to sponsor a parent. The legalized will become citizens one day. That's under DREAM, not DACA. There's no path to citizenship under the old DACA that lapsed and Democrats want renewed/actually passed. Under DACA you just deferred action every 2 years in perpetuity, I think, rather than becoming a permanent resident. Since there wasn't an actual bill I've seen stories that say both. I'm pretty sure the "gang of six" bill did not, but Graham-Durbin is more tentative. In any case, I think the framework of "Dreamers on condition of making sure it doesn't happen again" is a very useful and fair once, since theoretically no one should want this to happen again. Yeah, I think a DREAM bill that gave the permanent residency contingent on waiving the right to sponsor parents after citizenship would be the best solution (DACA alone just waiving action in perpetuity is a tremendous waste of resources). I'm not sure how much Dem opposition there would be to it in the Senate though; I am skeptical it could be filibustered at least.
They should lose the right to sponsor anyone and make that very clear, but yes. So we've got one condition. Now we need at least some border security. I personally could jettison E-verify for now, but you see can the issues.
Edit: Some people want this deal to address chain migration in general, and while I would love that I'm not sure it's realistic. Maybe leave that to when we deal with the other MILLIONS of illegal immigrants.
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United States42004 Posts
On January 22 2018 07:17 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 07:16 KwarK wrote:
Dreamers should happen again, it's good policy. If children grow up in the United States, get educated in US schools paid for by US taxpayers, get treated in US hospitals, drive on US roads etc, then they should absolutely live, work, and pay taxes in America.
The US shouldn't be inviting children of the world to come to the US. But the children that get here anyway should definitely be kept. We spent good money turning those into American children and now you want to send them back to a country they don't even remember? It's idiocy.
American citizenship doesn't define being an American. I could get American citizenship in a few years but it won't make me more American than someone who was here from infancy. That's not the point I'm arguing. We need to make sure that we don't get to another situation where we have hundreds of thousands of people brought here by their parents illegally when are they young.
That's a separate and unrelated issue though. Refusing to do something that both sides agree is good policy unless you get your way on a different, much more complicated and divisive issue is absurd.
The fact that the differing political schools of thought can't agree on how to solve illegal immigration does not mean that they should deliberate refuse to solve problems they do agree on like what to do with non citizens who were raised here.
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On January 22 2018 07:18 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 07:16 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 07:13 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:59 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:43 Introvert wrote:On January 22 2018 06:38 zlefin wrote:On January 22 2018 06:34 Introvert wrote:
The Democrats think the wall by itself is ineffective, so if they can legalize hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of immigrants all while keeping the spigot open for the future they'll take it. Dreamers who can sponsor their whole families to immigrate? Perfect! "Don't blame the child for the fault of their parents, but let the parents and whole family in too" is basically the position.
The goal of these immigration talks from the right side is to make sure we have the right policies and security to make sure we don't have to do this again in another 30 years. The right has learned from the 80s.
The deal must be strong enough that this situation doesn't occur again. The Democrats have an active interest in the opposite position. it doesn't seem like that's the goal; because I'm not seeing much in terms of proposals that actually rigorously accomplish that objective. instead you get trash like the wall which is simply ineffectual. it seems more like the goal from the right is to talk about it (to please that bigoted base) without actually doing anything about (and refusing to admit that there may simply be no good solution to it). They also want to change chain migration, make E-verify mandatory, and beef up border security. All of these are downward pressures and barriers to bringing your kid across the border. do you have citations on their actual proposals and on those actually accomplishing their stated objective? I assume with how many pointless anti-obamacare votes they've had, they've at least had a vote by now on some immigration change law. my general suspicion is with GH on this one, that the republicans avoid truly going hard and effective vs illegals because of corporate/rich donors wnating to take advantage of illegal labor. All we have are the "proposals" we read in the news, there is no real bill for anything so far as I know from either side. But those are the general terms the White House and some Senators have laid out. that's the kind of thing that makes me doubtful they're serious about it. they've had control of congress for a few years; sure their law would get filibustered/vetoed, but then they could say they tried, AND they clearly don't mind submitting laws that will get filibustered/vetoed based on how many times they did it on obamacare. if they're serious, why don't they have an actual bill on it? Because that isn't how these negotiations work? Neither the Dream lovers or critics have an actual bill yet. Are neither of them serious?
again, so what? they didn't mind trying to repeal obamacare a jillion times; why don't they have a bill on this?
they have enough votes that they can force the dems to filibuster it, so why don't they do that?
also the dream act is an actual fleshed out bill, so your claim is simply false there, and makes it sounds like you haven' tpaid much attention. I mean that's literally why it's called the dream ACT, because it's an actual proposal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act
if you're serious, why not take the time to craft an actual legislative proposal? then you can have it ready in case you get the votes you need.
also, whether or no tdems are serious isn't even relevant to the question at hand.
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EPT
