US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9608

On December 29 2017 10:33 micronesia wrote:

I'm surprised you are considering it a 'special level of disgusting' to think that the republican voterbase would support a sexual molester of teens in a primary, but easily explain support and voting for that same candidate in the general election. Why such an egregious difference? Is that okay?

Your use of 'stone age morons' also seems to have undermined your point before you even made it.

On December 29 2017 10:49 Danglars wrote:

When it's either Trump or Hillary, the calculus complicates. It's actually a very easy point. If you think your vote will help kill babies, empower our foreign enemies, debase our ally Israel, undermine due process rights on campus, undermine free speech rights for all Americans, then you ask yourself what you can tolerate for the next four years to stop those ill effects. The President is a very powerful figure, and what you can stomach is proportional for how much power they hold.

In a primary, you get none of that. You want to pick the best candidate in the cloud of Republican ideas (and sometimes outside). Trump's primary was pretty unique. 17 candidates. The winner got barely 38% of the vote up to the moment the last challenger suspended operations. The outsider made his own brand, when conservative and establishment sentiment was split in many ways. The majority of Republican voters supported candidates that weren't Trump. The plurality voted for him (even smaller than 38% 'Republicans' when you consider open primaries where opposing parties can vote for the candidate they think easiest to beat).

Basically, you're letting your hatred of Trump cloud your judgement. The primary process and opposition research won't always eliminate surprises, but for Republicans, it will take out credibly accused molesters. The presumption otherwise is very facile and unsupported in history. It is absolutely sophistry and Trump mania, with perhaps some lingering shock, to suggest an entire state would nominate Moore again when it just cost him turnout and the seat for his victory in the primary. Hillary Clinton lost to Trump in the state by 28 points, for comparison.

On December 29 2017 10:55 micronesia wrote:

I'm not sure how our conversation went from Roy Moore to Trump vs Hillary at the drop of a hat, but I still can't tell if you think voting for Roy Moore is justified or not. If you are just trying to explain how some voters justify voting for him without actually trying to claim that it's okay to vote for him, then I'm not sure how Trump is somehow clouding my judgment on Roy Moore, but ok. Is that it?

Sophistry is also a better word to use than stone age moron lol

On December 29 2017 11:12 Danglars wrote:

Trump vs Clinton is a parallel example for me. If the "grab them by the pussy" tape came out in the primary, he likely loses the primary, even while being helped by the highly split ticket.

The conversation isn't about whether or not it's justified to vote for him. Make that up in your own conscience. Tell me what's the most disgusting Democratic candidate they could've run against Trump and make you vote for Trump.

One more time. The primary is the best candidate that represents your ideals and had broad enough appeal to win a primary. The general involves a high degree of voting for the lesser of two evils. Do you understand the principle? Do you know why someone would call primaries and generals much different? He alleges that Alabamans are at all likely to send a sexual molester to bat for their cause, just because Doug Jones was so unfit in his own right to Alabamans. The two are very disconnected.

On December 29 2017 11:19 micronesia wrote:

Keep in mind I focused in on something very specific and was not addressing the entire conversation prior. It sounded like you were saying it is "okay" to vote for a child molester as long as it's the general election and not the primary. I wasn't trying to argue necessarily that voters will choose Moore in the next primary because they would choose him in a general election. I was just pointing out that you were making it sound like there are no standards when voting in the general election even though to think the same is true of primaries is moronic.

On December 29 2017 12:13 Danglars wrote:

You wash your hands and walk away pretty fast, buddy. Give me your Democrat that would make you vote Trump. I see a lot of high-minded people that lie their asses off to make things look pretty good for them. Come down off the throne and muddy yourself up a little. You just saw someone think Republicans would pick a sexual molester to represent the ticket again (knowing what they know now about him). It really sounds like you're afraid to address the real topic. I have a pretty good opinion of you, all things considered, so I think maybe you can reckon the difference. So make a definitive statement and don't run.

On December 29 2017 12:32 micronesia wrote:

I'll address this by pointing to the difference between not wanting to vote for Trump and not wanting to vote for Strange. The difference is between whether you want to vote for a candidate based on their policy positions and whether you want to for them personally. While I take some issue with Trump's policies, most of them are not that unusual insofar as simply being policies of a candidate I don't agree with (note that this does not exclusively apply to republican candidates... I've voted against democrats as well). Similarly, many of the people who voted for Moore in the general election, I expect, were voting against Jones because of policy, not because he's some horrible horrible person compared to other democrats and third-party candidates (in fact, it seemed like his opposition had very little to smear him with). In contrast, there are a plethora of motivations to not want to vote for Trump even if you happen to agree with more of his policy positions than those of his opponents. I won't go through some exhaustive list now of all the reasons why I consider him unsuitable, but they are closer to Moore's shortcomings in the eyes of a democrat than they are to Jones' shortcomings in the eyes of a republican.

I don't vote for child molesters because I happen to agree with their policy positions more than the other guy or girl. Put any child-molesting democrat against any republican that doesn't have the personal failings of trump and moore, and I'll vote for the republican, write in an alternate candidate who lost in the primary, or vote for a third party, despite misalignment on policy. Hopefully I won't be faced with this decision.

Comparing the difficulty for a liberal of voting against trump to the difficulty for a conservative voting against Moore is missing an extremely important distinction.

On December 29 2017 13:05 Danglars wrote:

You've lost me. Strange was not the alternative to Jones, Moore was. Strange did not run a general election campaign. But maybe you accuse other people of dragging in Trump unexpectantly, and here you drag in Strange and don't mention him again?

So, in principle you can understand people voting against Jones as being different against people voting personally for Moore because yay child molesters don't matter to me! So you agree with me on that issue.

I see the point you're getting at. I don't agree. Abortion is an issue the spans personal faults and policy faults for pro-life Republicans, and there's a hell of a lot in Alabama. You don't get a sanitized difference of personal failings and policy differences when more babies will die and you will have had a hand in that. Jones was a squish on abortion restrictions, having shown in interviews that he ranked the mother's choice as superlative (and remembered he was running in Alabama later and said he didn't want to remove).

It's all not really applicable to why I reacted strongly to the post reply. When you're stuck between a baby killer and a child molester, that's one thing. When you're voting who to represent your views among Republicans is quite another. Give Alabamans the choice of a few generic pro-life conservative Republicans, and Moore doesn't win. The state voters are simply not that evil. Remember, he said "I can see him winning the primary again to." That's an affirmative declaration that child molestation isn't a big deal when that's a difference between same-party primary candidates (when there isn't something bigger on the table) ... which is a accusation that Republicans are really just that evil in that state.

On December 29 2017 13:18 micronesia wrote:

I misspoke and didn't mean to say Strange, sorry. I meant to say MooreJones.

I don't understand what you are saying here.


I know a lot of conservatives will vote for any pro-life candidate over any pro-choice candidate no matter what, but they also have the option to vote for neither Moore NOR Jones if they don't want to vote for Jones (perhaps write in Strange or someone else a la Alaska?). A lot of folks just stayed home which isn't ideal but is similarly not voting for the child molester. I don't consider abortion a valid reason to vote for a child molester. I think protecting children after they are born is important, regardless of one's views on abortion.


I'm not trying to argue with you on this issue.

On December 29 2017 07:31 Plansix wrote:
You are sort of making my argument for me. Of course expertise matters. I would listen to the Oncologist because they got a degree in cancer study and curing it. Anyone in this thread with a PHD in the study of discrimination, both historical and current, can talk about it all they want the topic. But I don’t think anyone has that degree. I don’t. My degree is in US history and it is not a PHD.

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — President Trump said Thursday that he believes Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel in the Russia investigation, will treat him fairly, contradicting some members of his party who have waged a weekslong campaign to try to discredit Mr. Mueller and the continuing inquiry.

During an impromptu 30-minute interview with The New York Times at his golf club in West Palm Beach, the president did not demand an end to the Russia investigations swirling around his administration, but insisted 16 times that there has been “no collusion” discovered by the inquiry.

“It makes the country look very bad, and it puts the country in a very bad position,” Mr. Trump said of the investigation. “So the sooner it’s worked out, the better it is for the country.”

Asked whether he would order the Justice Department to reopen the investigation into Hillary Clinton’s emails, Mr. Trump appeared to remain focused on the Russia investigation.

“I have absolute right to do what I want to do with the Justice Department,” he said, echoing claims by his supporters that as president he has the power to open or end an investigation. “But for purposes of hopefully thinking I’m going to be treated fairly, I’ve stayed uninvolved with this particular matter.”

Hours after he accused the Chinese of secretly shipping oil to North Korea, Mr. Trump explicitly said for the first time that he has “been soft” on China on trade in the hopes that its leaders will pressure North Korea to abandon its nuclear weapons program.

He hinted that his patience may soon end, however, signaling his frustration with the reported oil shipments.

“Oil is going into North Korea. That wasn’t my deal!” he exclaimed, raising the possibility of aggressive trade actions against China. “If they don’t help us with North Korea, then I do what I’ve always said I want to do.”

Despite saying that when he visited China in November, President Xi Jinping “treated me better than anybody’s ever been treated in the history of China,” Mr. Trump said that “they have to help us much more.”

“We have a nuclear menace out there, which is no good for China,” he said.

Mr. Trump gave the interview in the Grill Room at Trump International Golf Club after he ate lunch with his playing partners, including his son Eric and the pro golfer Jim Herman. No aides were present for the interview, and the president sat alone with a New York Times reporter at a large round table as club members chatted and ate lunch nearby. A few times, members and friends — including a longtime supporter, Christopher Ruddy, the president and chief executive of the conservative website and TV company Newsmax — came by to speak with Mr. Trump.

Noting that he had given Mr. Herman $50,000 years ago when he worked at the president’s New Jersey golf club and was trying to make the PGA Tour, Mr. Trump asked him how much he made playing on the professional circuit.

“It’s like $3 million,” Mr. Herman said.

“Which to him is like making a billion because he doesn’t spend anything,” Mr. Trump joked. “Ain’t that a great story?”

In the interview, the president touted the strength of his campaign victories and his accomplishments in office, including passage of a tax overhaul this month. But he also expressed frustration and anger at Democrats, who he said refused to negotiate on legislation.

“Like Joe Manchin,” Mr. Trump said, referring to the Democratic senator from West Virginia. He said Mr. Manchin and other Democrats claimed to be centrists but refused to negotiate on health care or taxes.

“He talks. But he doesn’t do anything. He doesn’t do,” Mr. Trump said. “‘Hey, let’s get together, let’s do bipartisan.’ I say, ‘Good, let’s go.’ Then you don’t hear from him again.”

Nonetheless, Mr. Trump said he still hoped Democrats will work with him on bipartisan legislation in the coming year to overhaul health care, improve the country’s crumbling infrastructure and help young immigrants brought to the country as children.

Mr. Trump disputed reports that suggested he does not have a detailed understanding of legislation, saying, “I know the details of taxes better than anybody. Better than the greatest C.P.A. I know the details of health care better than most, better than most.”

Later, he added that he knows more about “the big bills” debated in the Congress “than any president that’s ever been in office.”

The president also spoke at length about the special election this month in Alabama, where Roy S. Moore, the Republican candidate, lost to a Democrat after being accused of sexual misconduct with young girls, including a minor, when he was in his 30s.

Mr. Trump said that he supported Mr. Moore’s opponent in the Republican primary race because he knew Mr. Moore would lose in the general election. And he insisted that he endorsed Mr. Moore later only because “I feel that I have to endorse Republicans as the head of the party.”

Mr. Mueller’s investigation appears to be moving ahead despite predictions by Mr. Trump’s lawyers this year that it would be over by Thanksgiving. Mr. Trump said that he was not bothered by the fact that he does not know when it will be completed because he has nothing to hide.

Mr. Trump repeated his assertion that Democrats invented the Russia allegations “as a hoax, as a ruse, as an excuse for losing an election.” He said that “everybody knows” his associates did not collude with the Russians, even as he insisted that the “real stories” are about Democrats who worked with Russians during the 2016 campaign.

“There’s been no collusion. But I think he’s going to be fair,” Mr. Trump said of Mr. Mueller.

In recent weeks, Republican lawmakers have seized on anti-Trump texts sent by an F.B.I. investigator who was removed from Mr. Mueller’s team as evidence of political bias. At a hearing this month, Representative Jim Jordan, Republican of Ohio, said that “the public trust in this whole thing is gone.”

Although Mr. Trump said he believes Mr. Mueller will treat him fairly, Mr. Trump raised questions about how the special counsel had dealt with the lobbyist Tony Podesta. Mr. Podesta is the brother of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign chairman, John D. Podesta, and Tony Podesta is under investigation for work his firm, the Podesta Group, did on behalf of a client referred to it in 2012 by Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman.

“Whatever happened to Podesta?” Mr. Trump said. “They closed their firm, they left in disgrace, the whole thing, and now you never heard of anything.”

Mr. Trump tried to put distance between himself and Mr. Manafort, who was indicted in October. The president said that Mr. Manafort — whom he called “very nice man” and “an honorable person” — had spent more time working for other candidates and presidents than for him.

“Paul only worked for me for a few months,” Mr. Trump said. “Paul worked for Ronald Reagan. His firm worked for John McCain, worked for Bob Dole, worked for many Republicans for far longer than he worked for me. And you’re talking about what Paul was many years ago before I ever heard of him. He worked for me for — what was it, three and a half months?”

Mr. Trump said it was “too bad” that Jeff Sessions, the attorney general, recused himself from overseeing the Russia investigation. Mr. Trump did not directly answer a question about whether he thought that Eric H. Holder Jr., President Barack Obama’s first attorney general, was more loyal than Mr. Sessions had been.

“I don’t want to get into loyalty, but I will tell you that, I will say this: Holder protected President Obama. Totally protected him,” Mr. Trump said. He added: “When you look at the things that they did, and Holder protected the president. And I have great respect for that, I’ll be honest.”

Mr. Trump said he believes members of the news media will eventually cover him more favorably because they are profiting from the interest in his presidency and thus will want him re-elected.

“Another reason that I’m going to win another four years is because newspapers, television, all forms of media will tank if I’m not there because without me, their ratings are going down the tubes,” Mr. Trump said, then invoked one of his preferred insults. “Without me, The New York Times will indeed be not the failing New York Times, but the failed New York Times.”

He added: “So they basically have to let me win. And eventually, probably six months before the election, they’ll be loving me because they’re saying, ‘Please, please, don’t lose Donald Trump.’ O.K.”

After the interview, Mr. Trump walked out of the Grill Room, stopping briefly to speak to guests. He then showed off a plaque that listed the club’s golf champions, including several years in which Mr. Trump had won its annual tournament. Asked how far he was hitting balls off the tee these days, Mr. Trump, who will turn 72 next year, was modest. “Gets shorter every year,” he said.