EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 9141
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28923 Posts
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Reivax
Sweden214 Posts
On November 03 2017 19:06 Wegandi wrote: Can you please point me to an economic system that isn't free-enterprise which has a better track record (both economically and from societal freedom/liberty perspective). I'll be waiting a long time. In the meantime, you have any movie suggestions? (Oh, and by the way, those Scandinavian and European OECD countries you like to point to - are mostly capitalist, and are in the process of rolling back their welfare systems; this is a fairly easy historical point to make since we have a decent sample to choose from. Take Sweden for instance, and look before the welfare system to now. It takes a while before you crush a strong market economy with welfare and socialism. They've been at that point for a bit now and it shows.) Uh, what now? Our welfare system is doing pretty well. Nobody's getting rich from it, there is a kind of social stigma to receiving it, but it does the job, which is maintaining some sort of minimal QOL standard. We still have homeless people, though. We have also recently received an influx (not gigantic, but enough to be noticeable in all major towns/cities) of migrants from worse-off parts of the EU who spends their time begging in the streets. There's a debate raging on wether to make begging illegal, which if enforced might have the hilarious side-effect that it would shut down populist proponents pleas for "donations". I'd say our social cohesion has gone down since the drive to privatize many government agencies began in the early nineties. It's undisputable that the wealth disparity has grown since the late 80's (during large parts of the time since the nineties, I believe Swedens wealth disparity increased more than anywhere in the OECD). Overall, we still maintain a very high QOL (relative to the rest of the world, i'd say "high" compared to most of the EU) even for the poorest citizens though. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:24 Nixer wrote: By bad I mean synonymous with evil, not bad as in faulty or inadequate. One of the problems I have with your original statement is it conflates two seperate genres of political ideology. For example, to me the proper comparison wouldn't be nazism and communism but instead capitalism or fascism. So instead of comparing one with the other, we compare a vague outline of something with the absolute worst implementation of another. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be Stalinism and Nazism etc. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:25 Liquid`Drone wrote: I can agree that I shouldn't generalize to that extent and that you can probably find modern day communists who are supportive of past leaders who deserve no adoration. Never seen anyone say anything positive about Pol Pot, though. But I know many self-professed communists, and like.. None of them are remotely positive towards Stalin. I'm sure there might be a sample size problem and that in insular communities like r/communism you can find significantly more extreme voices, though. In the would be supporters of Pol Pot, I think we can both agree that the local communist/nazi is probably not as educated or intelligent as they think they are, and Pol Pot probably flies under the radar. | ||
Nixer
2774 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:28 bo1b wrote: One of the problems I have with your original statement is it conflates two seperate genres of political ideology. For example, to me the proper comparison wouldn't be nazism and communism but instead capitalism or fascism. So instead of comparing one with the other, we compare a vague outline of something with the absolute worst implementation of another. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be Stalinism and Nazism etc. I think you missed my point then. I'm saying you can't really compare the two. | ||
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Reivax
Sweden214 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:28 bo1b wrote: One of the problems I have with your original statement is it conflates two seperate genres of political ideology. For example, to me the proper comparison wouldn't be nazism and communism but instead capitalism or fascism. So instead of comparing one with the other, we compare a vague outline of something with the absolute worst implementation of another. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be Stalinism and Nazism etc. As a thought experiment, I think that if humans were perfect, compliant beings, Communism would be a working ideology. Nazism would just be better at killing unwanted people. EDIT: I am not a communist. I'm sort of an odd mix between socialist and capitalist that is most of Sweden. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:30 Reivax wrote: As a thought experiment, I think that if humans were perfect, compliant beings, Communism would be a working ideology. Nazism would just be better at killing unwanted people. I think you completely missed the point of what I just wrote. As an aside, who's to say that communism hasn't taken great steps to achieve what it set out to achieve? More people are certainly equal under it's thumb, whether they like their equality is another question. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:30 Nixer wrote: I think you missed my point then. I'm saying you can't really compare the two. I'm pretty sure you did compare them though. | ||
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Reivax
Sweden214 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:31 bo1b wrote: I think you completely missed the point of what I just wrote. Yep, moved to fast. Sorry  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:24 farvacola wrote: He's old enough to detect a fallacious nod towards a nonexistent golden mean, that much is clear. "Both sides are the same, there are Mao flairs on Reddit and Melbourne college kids have stupid tattoos! Ha, proved it." How persuasive. "Of course Feminism is bad. Have you see tumblr?" | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
I can list an awful of things that I like about feminism. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:36 bo1b wrote: You can always count on Plansix to jump in at the end of a conversation wielding an inane strawman. Quick question for you, can you list a single thing that communism has achieved which you think is good in the long run? Literally one. Win WW2? Lead to a bunch of food co-op in my area that have really good ice cream? Ideas don't accomplish things, people do. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:36 bo1b wrote: You can always count on Plansix to jump in at the end of a conversation wielding an inane strawman. Quick question for you, can you list a single thing that communism has achieved which you think is good in the long run? Literally one. I can list an awful of things that I like about feminism. Can you define in what sense you mean the word "communism" in this instance? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:36 bo1b wrote: You can always count on Plansix to jump in at the end of a conversation wielding an inane strawman. Quick question for you, can you list a single thing that communism has achieved which you think is good in the long run? Literally one. I can list an awful of things that I like about feminism. Implying communism was ever applied | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:41 Plansix wrote: Win WW2? Lead to a bunch of food co-op in my area that have really good ice cream? Ideas don't accomplish things, people do. I think this basically sums you up: Communism won ww2 and provided you with good ice cream. heh. Literally one post above you is someone trying out that argument. Fortunately I don't have to respond to people who's iq matches their shoe size. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12619 Posts
Are we done with the leading questions already? Ok then, my turn. This conversation started from you being annoyed at Stratos_spear's portrayal of Nettles. Stratos_spear isn't antifa, and Nettles isn't a nazi. I can have both discussions cause I also happen to believe that antifas are better than nazis, but if I may ask, what was your motive for immediately shifting a discussion on the left and the right in America and whether it makes sense to be in the center between those two and to criticize their hypocrysy as equal, to a discussion of antifa and nazis? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:43 bo1b wrote: I think this basically sums you up: Communism won ww2 and provided you with good ice cream. You did ask for literally one example to a "quick question". Pillorying him afterwards for not providing a thorough and high quality answer to such a question is pretty fucked up. On November 03 2017 20:43 bo1b wrote: heh. Literally one post above you is someone trying out that argument. Fortunately I don't have to respond to people who's iq matches their shoe size. Assuming you are talking about me, it wasn't an argument. It was a request for clarification, because I don't know what you are trying to say and there is no point in replying until the question is clear. | ||
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Nixer
2774 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:32 bo1b wrote: I'm pretty sure you did compare them though. Yeah I did, but not as ideologies per se, but ethically. Different worlds. See the difference or do I still need to hold your hand and explain things to you word for word? I was just concurring with Drone, no need to be a smart-arse. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:43 bo1b wrote: I think this basically sums you up: Communism won ww2 and provided you with good ice cream. heh. Just because I treat this as the childish discussion that it is. Not even worthy of a politics 101 course. | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
On November 03 2017 20:44 Aquanim wrote: You did ask for literally one example to a "quick question". Pillorying him afterwards for not providing a thorough and high quality answer to such a question is pretty fucked up. Dude pulled a "how old are you" card on Nixer before he was even given a chance to respond. It seems clear that bo1b is arguing against an idea of the sorts of people he thinks defend these things, not actual posters in the thread, so folks ought proceed accordingly. | ||
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