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On October 31 2017 04:37 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Yeah its bad for everyone. If this is draining the swamp I'm all up for it. I hope both sides are shown to be what they are (in the more elite circles, anyway). As far as the Dem elite go, I'm sure there's dirt on them for years and if there is I hope this investigation brings it all out. The fact is, though, a president is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. Trump is going to be shown to have made consistently terrible decisions. Lots of things that Trump does is to uniquely piss off the people opposing to him. The country is split ideologically, some people would think what Trump is doing is absolutely brilliant, others would be like "This person doesn't fit into MY definition of a president, so I don't like him."
Well yeah. I mean if your definition of a president is "he pisses off the lefites" then you are getting the president you deserve.
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Former NYT editor might be screwed as well.
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On October 31 2017 04:32 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:25 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:14 Doodsmack wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Yes, the Clinton campaign knew what Elias knew (obviously), but Trump was just innocently fooled. There's a bit of a difference between Clinton knowing what her GC is doing with millions of her campaign's dollars and Trump (and others) being aware of what Manafort did before joining the Trump campaign. But let's just consider the following: what if everyone in politics (Trump included) knew exactly who and what Manafort was? What does that say about the state of American politics in general and how dirty it is? It's clear that Tony Podesta knew who Manafort was and what he was doing. Tony Podesta is a major political operator (John gets the press, but I'm pretty sure that the Tony is the bigger deal). Who may Tony have tipped off? How many other operators in Washington would know -- both democrats and republicans? One thing that seems obvious to me is that there is a very good chance that one or both of the Podestas tipped Clinton off during the campaign regarding Manafort and Trump's possible issues with the appearance of impropriety regarding Russia. I don't really know what the full implication of that is right now, but it's definitely an interesting piece of information that I'd pocket for the time being. Still the notion that Trump was innocently fooled is preposterous. The laundering continued during the campaign, Manafort along with other launderers and mobsters lived in Trump's building, and as far as getting hacked dirt from Russia during the campaign goes, we'd be beyond gullible to think Manafort and Trump were in the dark. EDIT: You're also making the Elias oppo research sound pretty justified there.
The argument has never been that opposition research is bad or illegal. The issue has always been how it was conducted and why it was kept off the books in the way that it was.
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On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now.
For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this.
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Yeah, I looked up what Mercury LLC was and who was a part of it after I saw that Daily Caller article. One of the founders is a Russian: Kirill Goncharenko: Hrmmmmmm......
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United States42753 Posts
On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this.
Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands.
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On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands.
At this point it does play into his hands though but then again so do news outlets like Fox and Brietbart pretending like Manafort isnt clearly guilty because what Putin wants is America divided. One of the reasons he probably supported Trump was not only how easily manipulated he is but also how divisive he is. No matter what happens from here on out he achieves his goal of dividing America and therefore is in a strong position because of it.
Basically he wont get what he wanted from Trump because of the light being shown so getting a more divided America is a fairly decent consolation prize.
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On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands.
I think it goes something along the lines of ridiculing the US, both DEMs and REPs based on this
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United States42753 Posts
On October 31 2017 05:06 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands. I think it goes something along the lines of ridiculing the US, both DEMs and REPs based on this
That only works if you assume that exposing corruption on both sides of the political spectrum somehow weakens the US.
If corruption in American politics is bad for the US and good for America's rivals then cleaning up that corruption is good for the US and bad for America's rivals.
Comparing it to a hypothetical world where there is no corruption and saying that the chaos of cleaning up the corruption still makes it a relative win for Putin doesn't make sense. That's like losing a soccer match 3-1 but insisting that the goal you scored still makes it kind of a win compared to a hypothetical 10-0 defeat.
The fact of corruption has already been established. From that starting point the US addressing the corruption is bad for Putin.
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On October 31 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 05:06 Toadesstern wrote:On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands. I think it goes something along the lines of ridiculing the US, both DEMs and REPs based on this That only works if you assume that exposing corruption on both sides of the political spectrum somehow weakens the US. If corruption in American politics is bad for the US and good for America's rivals then cleaning up that corruption is good for the US and bad for America's rivals. Comparing it to a hypothetical world where there is no corruption and saying that the chaos of cleaning up the corruption still makes it a relative win for Putin doesn't make sense. That's like losing a soccer match 3-1 but insisting that the goal you scored still makes it kind of a win compared to a hypothetical 10-0 defeat. The fact of corruption has already been established. From that starting point the US addressing the corruption is bad for Putin.
You are operating under an imaginary assumption that somehow this will be greeted as corruption from both sides. I am saying that if Mueller came out with definitive proof that Russia was outright meddling in the elections and Donald Trump himself was personally giving orders to the Russian agents and they have him on video doing this that a large segment (30%) of the population would say its fake and doenst exist and there would be "news" outlets to feed that stupidity.
In that world the act of cleaning up the corruption only fuels the division and makes America weaker. As long as there is stuff being talked about that can divide us Putin is coming out ahead and you are naive if you think this will not end up as a division along party lines.
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We can only presume what Putin's motives are. But regardless of whether his plans are being foiled or not, I have no doubt that he is taking some satisfaction in the mess that has been created over here.
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United States42753 Posts
On October 31 2017 05:17 xDaunt wrote:
We can only presume what Putin's motives are. But regardless of whether his plans are being foiled or not, I have no doubt that he is taking some satisfaction in the mess that has been created over here.
Arresting corrupt politicians is not "creating" mess. The mess was already there. This isn't good, but it's certainly better than having all the same shit still going on without arrests.
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On October 31 2017 05:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 05:17 xDaunt wrote:
We can only presume what Putin's motives are. But regardless of whether his plans are being foiled or not, I have no doubt that he is taking some satisfaction in the mess that has been created over here. Arresting corrupt politicians is not "creating" mess. The mess was already there. This isn't good, but it's certainly better than having all the same shit still going on without arrests.
Arresting corrupt politicians would actually be cleaning up the mess...
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On October 31 2017 04:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:37 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 31 2017 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Yeah its bad for everyone. If this is draining the swamp I'm all up for it. I hope both sides are shown to be what they are (in the more elite circles, anyway). As far as the Dem elite go, I'm sure there's dirt on them for years and if there is I hope this investigation brings it all out. The fact is, though, a president is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. Trump is going to be shown to have made consistently terrible decisions. Lots of things that Trump does is to uniquely piss off the people opposing to him. The country is split ideologically, some people would think what Trump is doing is absolutely brilliant, others would be like "This person doesn't fit into MY definition of a president, so I don't like him." That's not why people don't like Trump. If your employee rarely showed up, stole from you when they did show up, and sexually harassed everyone in the office you wouldn't say that the issue was that the employee doesn't fit into your definition of an employee. Trump is really, really bad at being President. By anyone's definition. The man hasn't managed to achieve a single part of his legislative agenda, despite controlling all three branches of government, and he can barely utter a coherent sentence.
But the question is that are all those accusations true or are they just smokes and mirror that people are forced to believe due to political correctness.
This goes back to how the press was lying that trump raped people and how he is sexist and how no way Hillary was going to win.
And they are a lot of people that believes in that narrative. Lots of people belong to one hard end of the spectrum that uses absolutism words like "by anyone's definition."
It is important to have nuanced stance instead of going to the far end.
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On October 31 2017 05:32 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:38 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:37 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 31 2017 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Yeah its bad for everyone. If this is draining the swamp I'm all up for it. I hope both sides are shown to be what they are (in the more elite circles, anyway). As far as the Dem elite go, I'm sure there's dirt on them for years and if there is I hope this investigation brings it all out. The fact is, though, a president is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. Trump is going to be shown to have made consistently terrible decisions. Lots of things that Trump does is to uniquely piss off the people opposing to him. The country is split ideologically, some people would think what Trump is doing is absolutely brilliant, others would be like "This person doesn't fit into MY definition of a president, so I don't like him." That's not why people don't like Trump. If your employee rarely showed up, stole from you when they did show up, and sexually harassed everyone in the office you wouldn't say that the issue was that the employee doesn't fit into your definition of an employee. Trump is really, really bad at being President. By anyone's definition. The man hasn't managed to achieve a single part of his legislative agenda, despite controlling all three branches of government, and he can barely utter a coherent sentence. But the question is that are all those accusations true or are they just smokes and mirror that people are forced to believe due to political correctness.
I think there is a fairly obvious answer to this question
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On October 31 2017 05:14 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 05:06 Toadesstern wrote:On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands. I think it goes something along the lines of ridiculing the US, both DEMs and REPs based on this That only works if you assume that exposing corruption on both sides of the political spectrum somehow weakens the US. If corruption in American politics is bad for the US and good for America's rivals then cleaning up that corruption is good for the US and bad for America's rivals. Comparing it to a hypothetical world where there is no corruption and saying that the chaos of cleaning up the corruption still makes it a relative win for Putin doesn't make sense. That's like losing a soccer match 3-1 but insisting that the goal you scored still makes it kind of a win compared to a hypothetical 10-0 defeat. The fact of corruption has already been established. From that starting point the US addressing the corruption is bad for Putin. You are operating under an imaginary assumption that somehow this will be greeted as corruption from both sides. I am saying that if Mueller came out with definitive proof that Russia was outright meddling in the elections and Donald Trump himself was personally giving orders to the Russian agents and they have him on video doing this that a large segment (30%) of the population would say its fake and doenst exist and there would be "news" outlets to feed that stupidity. In that world the act of cleaning up the corruption only fuels the division and makes America weaker. As long as there is stuff being talked about that can divide us Putin is coming out ahead and you are naive if you think this will not end up as a division along party lines.
You're batshit insane if you think 30% of the population would deny video showing Trump giving orders to actual Russian spies. This president has really done a number on your base incredulity.
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On October 31 2017 05:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 05:14 Adreme wrote:On October 31 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 05:06 Toadesstern wrote:On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands. I think it goes something along the lines of ridiculing the US, both DEMs and REPs based on this That only works if you assume that exposing corruption on both sides of the political spectrum somehow weakens the US. If corruption in American politics is bad for the US and good for America's rivals then cleaning up that corruption is good for the US and bad for America's rivals. Comparing it to a hypothetical world where there is no corruption and saying that the chaos of cleaning up the corruption still makes it a relative win for Putin doesn't make sense. That's like losing a soccer match 3-1 but insisting that the goal you scored still makes it kind of a win compared to a hypothetical 10-0 defeat. The fact of corruption has already been established. From that starting point the US addressing the corruption is bad for Putin. You are operating under an imaginary assumption that somehow this will be greeted as corruption from both sides. I am saying that if Mueller came out with definitive proof that Russia was outright meddling in the elections and Donald Trump himself was personally giving orders to the Russian agents and they have him on video doing this that a large segment (30%) of the population would say its fake and doenst exist and there would be "news" outlets to feed that stupidity. In that world the act of cleaning up the corruption only fuels the division and makes America weaker. As long as there is stuff being talked about that can divide us Putin is coming out ahead and you are naive if you think this will not end up as a division along party lines. You're batshit insane if you think 30% of the population would deny video showing Trump giving orders to actual Russian spies. This president has really done a number on your base incredulity.
30% is probably way too high considering that rougly 50% (or something along those lines?) didn't even vote and those will for the most certainly believe stuff both ways if there's videotapes. Be it of Hillary eating babies in her basement or Trump being a James Bond villain.
That being said... if he changes it to "30% of the people who voted Trump" (which is a big change of the innitial statement) I'd probably agree
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United States42753 Posts
On October 31 2017 05:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 05:14 Adreme wrote:On October 31 2017 05:10 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 05:06 Toadesstern wrote:On October 31 2017 04:51 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:47 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:36 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:27 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 04:17 brian wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Knowing this, why is it you think Trump was fooled and not just a willing (but maybe even reluctantly) participant? I'm not ruling out that he was a willing participant. I just think that it's more likely that he was fooled. eh, honestly? fingers crossed. i feel real naive saying it though. we definitely have different opinions on what’s likely here. if Hil-dog got elected you have to wonder- would this still have even come out? You have to imagine there would still have been an investigation at the very least. But would there have been a special counsel appointee? I assume not- would her AG need to recuse? and then to that end, would there be as strong a push for ‘the truth’ This’ll be the one part of this investigation that i’ll avoid thinking on too much. How much of this is fact finding and how much is finding the right people to take the fall and will we know between the two by the time we’re done here? because to get even as far as Flynn and Manafort have speaks to, i think, a larger problem here. i feel like a conspiracy theorist now. For all I know, Trump is as dirty as everyone else. It really wouldn't surprise me. And yeah, I feel you on the conspiracy theorist sentiment. But it's becoming increasingly clear that all of this is a lot more complicated than "Trump colluded Russians." I'm sure Putin is laughing his ass off over how the US is pretzeling itself over all of this. Really not sure how Putin's conspiracy being uncovered and the people he conspired with being arrested is a good thing for Putin but whatever, I'm sure you'll not be willing to elaborate on your suggestion that by investigating all this and cleaning up politics we're somehow playing into his hands. I think it goes something along the lines of ridiculing the US, both DEMs and REPs based on this That only works if you assume that exposing corruption on both sides of the political spectrum somehow weakens the US. If corruption in American politics is bad for the US and good for America's rivals then cleaning up that corruption is good for the US and bad for America's rivals. Comparing it to a hypothetical world where there is no corruption and saying that the chaos of cleaning up the corruption still makes it a relative win for Putin doesn't make sense. That's like losing a soccer match 3-1 but insisting that the goal you scored still makes it kind of a win compared to a hypothetical 10-0 defeat. The fact of corruption has already been established. From that starting point the US addressing the corruption is bad for Putin. You are operating under an imaginary assumption that somehow this will be greeted as corruption from both sides. I am saying that if Mueller came out with definitive proof that Russia was outright meddling in the elections and Donald Trump himself was personally giving orders to the Russian agents and they have him on video doing this that a large segment (30%) of the population would say its fake and doenst exist and there would be "news" outlets to feed that stupidity. In that world the act of cleaning up the corruption only fuels the division and makes America weaker. As long as there is stuff being talked about that can divide us Putin is coming out ahead and you are naive if you think this will not end up as a division along party lines. You're batshit insane if you think 30% of the population would deny video showing Trump giving orders to actual Russian spies. This president has really done a number on your base incredulity.
You're right, they wouldn't deny it, they'd cheer about how much it pissed off the libs and demand to know why nobody was focusing more on the real issues like Hillary.
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United States42753 Posts
On October 31 2017 05:32 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 04:38 KwarK wrote:On October 31 2017 04:37 RealityIsKing wrote:On October 31 2017 04:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 31 2017 04:10 xDaunt wrote:On October 31 2017 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't understand how the Trump team think they can spin this in such a way that it doesn't look bad for him. He hired a fucking criminal as his campaign manager. Aren't presidents supposed to have good judgement? It's not just Trump that was fooled. Manafort was well-known in political circles nationally, and he was a major figure in the republican party. A lot of people worked with him, including Tony Podesta. You need to look beyond Trump and consider the magnitude of how all of this potentially affects the political establishment. Yeah its bad for everyone. If this is draining the swamp I'm all up for it. I hope both sides are shown to be what they are (in the more elite circles, anyway). As far as the Dem elite go, I'm sure there's dirt on them for years and if there is I hope this investigation brings it all out. The fact is, though, a president is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with. Trump is going to be shown to have made consistently terrible decisions. Lots of things that Trump does is to uniquely piss off the people opposing to him. The country is split ideologically, some people would think what Trump is doing is absolutely brilliant, others would be like "This person doesn't fit into MY definition of a president, so I don't like him." That's not why people don't like Trump. If your employee rarely showed up, stole from you when they did show up, and sexually harassed everyone in the office you wouldn't say that the issue was that the employee doesn't fit into your definition of an employee. Trump is really, really bad at being President. By anyone's definition. The man hasn't managed to achieve a single part of his legislative agenda, despite controlling all three branches of government, and he can barely utter a coherent sentence. But the question is that are all those accusations true or are they just smokes and mirror that people are forced to believe due to political correctness. This goes back to how the press was lying that trump raped people and how he is sexist and how no way Hillary was going to win. And they are a lot of people that believes in that narrative. Lots of people belong to one hard end of the spectrum that uses absolutism words like "by anyone's definition." It is important to have nuanced stance instead of going to the far end.
Let's examine the accusation of Trump not achieving his legislative agenda.
Is there a wall yet? Is the Obamacare repeal done yet? Is tax reform done yet?
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