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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Competent urban and city planning has to strike a balance between the desires of homebuyers/owners looking to pay to not be around poverty and the needs of an ever-growing population of folks barely staying afloat. One of the biggest issues here is the renter/owner divide; it is no coincidence that many of the urban areas most subject to sudden, poverty-evicting gentrification are also full of property owners who don't actually live in the properties they're renting. Far too often are multinational developers able to swoop in on urban renewal property churning ventures and eat up all the value while basically exporting it away. Once that happens, smaller time property owners oftentimes get sticker-shocked into thinking they can jump on the backend of the crazy high asking prices and boom, a mini housing bubble gets on its way ezpz while poor folk get pushed farther and farther away from infrastructure crucial to success.
There are no easy solutions to this unfortunately, though figuring out a way to discourage the wholesale conversion of homeowners into renters while forcing property owners to take real stakes in communities is up there imo.
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The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart.
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On October 17 2017 00:16 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 00:08 zlefin wrote:On October 17 2017 00:03 brian wrote:
so i’m gonna put my ignorant opinion out there and maybe y’all can straighten me out again. i don’t have anything against communities that oppose section 8 housing. if people want to pay a premium to avoid having neighbors in poverty then i get it. poverty often brings crime, right?
this is, i think, hypocrisy given my feelings against gentrification. because i can’t possibly conceive of a solution that allows for both, but i’m also no genius.
i’m using ‘poverty’ pretty freely here, of that much at least i am aware. but i think when speaking so generally of section 8 housing it’s still a reality for a significant portion of it. how do you know they're paying a premium, rather than simply prohibiting it? The problem is when there's no place for the poor to get housing at all. it's not like one community prohibits it but there's another nearby where they can easily get it (and still be in range to get to their jobs), it's more like there's nowhere to go. {i'm rather sick right now, so hard to focus and thinking may be a bit off} NIMBY-ism often leads to there being NO place at all. my expectation is that a prohibition would lead to the increased price, capitalism and whatnot. and to that end, my expectation is also that not all people would care for the price point and choose a community that does allow for subsidized housing. your last point about NIMBY is definitely well taken but i’m not totally convinced of it due to the above. if i could afford a community that doesn’t have section 8 housing, and that was something i cared about, then yea, that’s causing the problem you’re pointing out for sure. but i’m thinking some people can’t, and don’t care one way or the other, which would solve this problem. i mean i guess the reality of the situation is in that article though, in that there are so many people still waiting that my expectations are just wrong.
well it does lead to increased price, there's parts of the country (and other countries) wherein the cost for housing has gotten very high. Sometimes the issues are larger than a single city, but affect an entire region (especially if they're caused by state law; even if not there's oftfen consistent dynamic issues affecting a wide area).
It's not easy to move either, not everyone (especially the poor) can afford the cost to move either, and moving may put them out of range of their family/job/support network. so they end up homeless instead (or staying at whoever they can stay with)
Have you heard about the challenge many would face with a sudden $400 expense?
unrelated PS: sermo, why is your post full of random periods? "."
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On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart.
Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day."
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On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day."
Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. The whole argument to not have them near your children results them having no love for wealthy or well off people. Treat the “have nots” and they have no problem robbing your kids. Or worse.
There are always going to be poor people in the world. Treating them like unwanted trash isn’t going to make the world better.
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On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization.
I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts.
Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types.
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You shouldn't have areas where people like this make up a big chunk of the inhabitants. Thats exactly why you want mixed development and not slums or fenced in rich communities.
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Hyper-lieberal places like portland also often are the worst offenders on having ridiculously high housing prices. (not sure about causation, but there's a definite correlation)
if they were truly compassionate, they'd do something about that.
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Any of you Seattle folks have a horse in the race for this Mayor election? Moon is like if you took every hyper liberal facebook meme and made it into a person.
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On October 16 2017 19:40 Plansix wrote:
A fascinating read into how much sway drug companies really have.
This is interesting and horrifying equally.
The question is, how is Trump going to drain the swamp when he's so busy hiring the dirtiest bastards he can find?
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On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types.
I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem.
And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace.
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The thing is to spread.out the poverty areas so it doesn't concentrate to the issues you see in the ghettos. My area has a huge disparity between 400k houses and an hoa vs.trailer parks on the.other side of a bridge. You get the tax base for a functioning government and provide houseing for the underclass that makes it work.
Im useing a new type interface on my phone that speeds thing's up for me.unfortunately the space button is smaller then the one before and that space is taken up by a period button.
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On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace.
Putting a poor building in a wealthier neighborhood still carries the same stigma as a shitty neighborhood. It is an easily identifiable other that people can get pissed off at. the goal should be to distribute the poor even further so that they cant even be identified from an outside perspective. each building should be mandated to have a few low income and a few middle income rental units in proportion to the area's needs.
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On October 17 2017 01:56 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace. Putting a poor building in a wealthier neighborhood still carries the same stigma as a shitty neighborhood. It is an easily identifiable other that people can get pissed off at. the goal should be to distribute the poor even further so that they cant even be identified from an outside perspective. each building should be mandated to have a few low income and a few middle income rental units in proportion to the area's needs.
That has been the plan for a couple decades. Mixed occupancy buildings have specific units that are devoted to low income housing, with section 8/state vouchers built in. Building a low income housing unit in wealth area is rarely teh plan. Also, the majority of section 8 and state rental vouchers are used by the elderly or completely disabled. It isn't going to be a housing complex filled with drug addicts. We have one in my current town and its just filled with old people.
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On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace.
Yeah, I understand and appreciate the mechanisms leading to all this. I'll always vote yes on tax increases or whatever to create these systems to help the disadvantaged. But I'm not moving to these areas. I'm not willing to be one of the ones to dilute the messiness of these communities. I will always pay a premium to not be in the midst of all this kinda stuff as it develops/improves etc.
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self-selection/ self-assortment leading to economic and social segregation; a very understandable reason for the individuals with no good answers from a societal perspective.
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On October 17 2017 02:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace. Yeah, I understand and appreciate the mechanisms leading to all this. I'll always vote yes on tax increases or whatever to create these systems to help the disadvantaged. But I'm not moving to these areas. I'm not willing to be one of the ones to dilute the messiness of these communities. I will always pay a premium to not be in the midst of all this kinda stuff as it develops/improves etc.
That is fine right up until the point where you bought a house and are now attempting to keep them out of your community. That is where this argument falls apart.
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On October 17 2017 02:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 01:56 Trainrunnef wrote:On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace. Putting a poor building in a wealthier neighborhood still carries the same stigma as a shitty neighborhood. It is an easily identifiable other that people can get pissed off at. the goal should be to distribute the poor even further so that they cant even be identified from an outside perspective. each building should be mandated to have a few low income and a few middle income rental units in proportion to the area's needs. That has been the plan for a couple decades. Mixed occupancy buildings have specific units that are devoted to low income housing, with section 8/state vouchers built in. Building a low income housing unit in wealth area is rarely teh plan. Also, the majority of section 8 and state rental vouchers are used by the elderly or completely disabled. It isn't going to be a housing complex filled with drug addicts. We have one in my current town and its just filled with old people.
I think it's pretty obvious that there is discrimination going on if you're only selecting the good poor people, and the system is in fact, not working.
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On October 17 2017 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 02:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace. Yeah, I understand and appreciate the mechanisms leading to all this. I'll always vote yes on tax increases or whatever to create these systems to help the disadvantaged. But I'm not moving to these areas. I'm not willing to be one of the ones to dilute the messiness of these communities. I will always pay a premium to not be in the midst of all this kinda stuff as it develops/improves etc. That is fine right up until the point where you bought a house and are now attempting to keep them out of your community. That is where this argument falls apart.
Well, for whatever it's worth, I haven't bought a house and I'm not trying to keep anyone out. But as I look for houses, I am making sure the one I choose to buy is well enough insulated against this kinda degradation that I am seeing in certain areas.
Let's say someone buys a house in a nice neighborhood and they paid money to be farther away from that kinda thing. Are they justified in voting against camping rules and whatnot?
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On October 17 2017 02:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2017 02:18 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 02:10 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 01:04 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:40 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:34 Plansix wrote:On October 17 2017 00:31 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2017 00:21 Sermokala wrote:
The issue is that no one wants to live near poverty so poverty has no.where.to go and.they end.up pooling in ghettos of crime and misery instead.of. Being spaced.out in a proper distribution so those people have a chance like everyone else.
good society dictates having communities.of low income spacced in with.higher.income. Nothing else.is.good or smart. Yeah. I come from a childhood of evictions, parental substance abuse and the whole kitchen sink of "shitty things about poverty". Despite that, I would never even consider living somewhere that puts me "near poverty". It is a deeply bad thing and it is not just single moms working night shift to support her 2 kids. There are some big issues. I don't want any of that near me or my eventual kids. The second I worked my way out of that, I said "and never again will this ever be even slightly a part of my life. Good day." Mixed income housing statistically shows better results that the “ghetto system” employed by some states and communities. Shoving all the poor people into one area just leads to problems, poorly funded schools and further marginalization. I don't doubt that. But in my area, at this time, I see some pretty black/white boundaries. I suppose I would vote in favor of putting the occasional poor building in a wealthier neighborhood. But I am way past the point of the whole "But we need to live amongst meth addicts so we can help them" mantra. It is not effective. Portland is basically a rotting corpse under the enormous spike of these weird not-actually-homeless late teens or early 20s kids who basically become max mad street people. Portland tried to crank up compassion to hyper liberal levels and all it did is make us have to clean needles from our playgrounds before kids go to recess. There are schools in Portland that now regularly have to clean up human shit and needles in the morning because of these people. It's this weird mix of people who are old and homeless, kids who just want to live as some sort of alternative society begging and stealing, and meth addicts. Far and away, the hands down worst group are these mad max types. I am sure if I dug into it, I would find that the surrounding towns and other areas don’t have any services to assist these folks. When you see communities trying to aid the homeless or addicted population, the attract more people seeking assistance from communities that are indifferent. If everyone just took care of their own homeless, you wouldn’t have that problem. And I am speaking from personal experience. I am from a very poor section of my state. I worked my church’s soup kitchen and pantry. I dealt with the community complaining that handing out medical supplies was causing “gangs from Springfield” to seek them from the church, which was totally true. But what are we going to do, not hand out first aid kits because old white people are scared Hispanic kids who just want medical suppies? I have also have worked on eviction cases for landlords. It is the area of law I am most familiar with. I’ve evicted more than a couple drug addicts. I can tell you that the constable and movers evicting the people are way more supportive than the landlords. The constable has driven people to shelters. These folks need help and the ability to exist someplace. Yeah, I understand and appreciate the mechanisms leading to all this. I'll always vote yes on tax increases or whatever to create these systems to help the disadvantaged. But I'm not moving to these areas. I'm not willing to be one of the ones to dilute the messiness of these communities. I will always pay a premium to not be in the midst of all this kinda stuff as it develops/improves etc. That is fine right up until the point where you bought a house and are now attempting to keep them out of your community. That is where this argument falls apart. Well, for whatever it's worth, I haven't bought a house and I'm not trying to keep anyone out. But as I look for houses, I am making sure the one I choose to buy is well enough insulated against this kinda degradation that I am seeing in certain areas. Let's say someone buys a house in a nice neighborhood and they paid money to be farther away from that kinda thing. Are they justified in voting against camping rules and whatnot?
You are totally justified in voting for it. And I’m totally justified in thinking that person is an uncaring, self-centered piece of shit if they are fully aware of the difficulties homeless people face. I know plenty of liberal, well meaning people that get really into property rights once something is going to end up in their back yard. You can’t say you support something and then vote that thing out of your community. Well you can, but don’t expect to be applauded for it.
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EPT
