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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 14 2017 20:29 GMT
#174721
On September 15 2017 04:48 LegalLord wrote:
Just noticed Sanders has a new book as well. Won't make the same mistake twice, I'm getting this one digital.

A hardcover copy of what happened on the bookshelf is good for a conversation starter. Put the art of the deal right next to it haha.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24390 Posts
September 14 2017 20:34 GMT
#174722
On September 15 2017 04:43 Doodsmack wrote:
Trump will definitely have to veto this one.



Lol


Is this Democrats conceding 2018 already? I thought they were pretty confident?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 14 2017 20:37 GMT
#174723
I was being sarcastic, Trump is apparently unaware that he won't have to veto it because it won't pass Congress. I don't think Trump is referring to after the 2018 election.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24390 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 20:49:18
September 14 2017 20:43 GMT
#174724
On September 15 2017 05:37 Doodsmack wrote:
I was being sarcastic, Trump is apparently unaware that he won't have to veto it because it won't pass Congress. I don't think Trump is referring to after the 2018 election.


Fair enough.

Is she on bath salts?



On September 15 2017 05:43 Plansix wrote:
It won’t get a vote in the senate, much less the house.


You saying it won't in 2018 even if Democrats did as well as people said they would a month or so ago?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 14 2017 20:43 GMT
#174725
It won’t get a vote in the senate, much less the house.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 14 2017 20:48 GMT
#174726
On September 15 2017 05:43 Plansix wrote:
It won’t get a vote in the senate, much less the house.

Reverse psychology : have Hillary and Obama come out against it, watch freedom caucus pass it instantly.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
September 14 2017 20:49 GMT
#174727
On September 15 2017 04:58 LegalLord wrote:
Nah, I prefer supporting the rise of the internet retailer over the brick and mortar. Plus it's like 50% of the price.

That's why Germany has a thing called Buchpreisbindung. Meaning the price of a book is fixed. Ebooks can be a tad cheaper but that's rather new.
You get used and faulty books at reduced price though, the Buchpreisbindung doesn't apply to them.

Idk the exact reasoning but it's a good way of keeping smaller bookshops in business that can actually give recommendations that are worth the name.
passive quaranstream fan
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 14 2017 20:55 GMT
#174728
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 14 2017 20:59 GMT
#174729
On September 15 2017 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah

Not yet. You won’t get that until public hearings. The number I see thrown around is that it costs 32 trillion and we are projected to spend 49 trillion on healthcare. Of course, how make it work within the current infrastructure and government systems is the hardest part.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 21:02:16
September 14 2017 21:01 GMT
#174730
On September 15 2017 05:59 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2017 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah

Not yet. You won’t get that until public hearings. The number I see thrown around is that it costs 32 trillion and we are projected to spend 49 trillion on healthcare. Of course, how make it work within the current infrastructure and government systems is the hardest part.


...what? our GDP isn't even that big. or is it over the course of a few years?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 21:11:08
September 14 2017 21:03 GMT
#174731
Do we even know what yet what premiums non-seniors would have to pay? Because Bernie's previous plan didn't involve premiums afaik (that's why he mostly talked tax cost vs current premiums). And his plan focused on no copays or deductibles, which is again not an actual component of Medicare (part D has cost sharing for sure, part A and B as well I think but am less sure on).

Of course it might be more useful to just ignore what Medicare actually is while still calling it Medicare for all (since the more accurate Medicaid for version has less positive associations, and even that still has some pittance cost sharing mechanisms for pharmacy benefits). Just look at cultural Marxism

Edit: good to see it actually does acknowledge premiums. Hope they at least kill the donut hole in part D copays, though.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
September 14 2017 21:04 GMT
#174732
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24390 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 21:16:40
September 14 2017 21:10 GMT
#174733
On September 15 2017 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2017 05:59 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2017 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah

Not yet. You won’t get that until public hearings. The number I see thrown around is that it costs 32 trillion and we are projected to spend 49 trillion on healthcare. Of course, how make it work within the current infrastructure and government systems is the hardest part.


...what? our GDP isn't even that big. or is it over the course of a few years?


10 years (like most of these things are rated, but that was a previous version), we're heading toward healthcare being almost 25% of GDP by 2038 with current legislation.

Here's some of what I've seen regarding the math.

HOW MUCH WILL IT COST AND HOW DO WE PAY FOR IT?

HOW MUCH WILL IT COST?

This plan has been estimated to cost $1.38 trillion per year.

THE PLAN WOULD BE FULLY PAID FOR BY:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.

A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:
37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)

Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.

Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per year. Under Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.

The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year.This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.

Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year. Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year.Most importantly, health care provided by employers is compensation that is not subject to payroll taxes or income taxes under current law. This is a significant tax break that would effectively disappear under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new single-payer program instead of employer-based health care.


Source

On September 15 2017 06:03 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Do we even know what yet what premiums non-seniors would have to pay? Because Bernie's previous plan didn't involve premiums afaik (that's why he mostly talked tax cost vs current premiums). And his plan focused on no copays or deductibles, which is again not an actual component of Medicare (part D has cost sharing for sure, part A and B as well I think but am less sure on).

Of course it might be more useful to just ignore what Medicare actually is while still calling it Medicare for all (since the more accurate Medicaid for version has less positive associations, and even that still has some pittance cost sharing mechanisms for pharmacy benefits). Just look at cultural Marxism


Pretty sure it boils down to "Medicare for all" polling the best when it comes to this stuff.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 21:18:24
September 14 2017 21:16 GMT
#174734
I guess from a logistical perspective when you're trying to sway people who currently don't have Medicare it doesn't much matter how "true" you are to Medicare. Maybe the upside here could be some improvements for actual Medicare too thrown into the bargain *cough donut hole cough part D cough drug price negotiation cough*

In the alternate world where everyone knows everything about healthcare the most warm and fuzzy name would definitely be Tricare for all though
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24390 Posts
September 14 2017 21:18 GMT
#174735
On September 15 2017 06:16 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I guess from a logistical perspective when you're trying to sway people who currently don't have Medicare it doesn't much matter how "true" you are to Medicare. Maybe the upside here could be some improvements for actual Medicare too thrown into the bargain *cough donut hole cough part D cough drug price negotiation cough*


Presumably it would fold into the new system if I understand correctly. Everyone would have the same "health insurance" other than people who went out and bought private insurance in addition.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 21:22:50
September 14 2017 21:19 GMT
#174736
On September 15 2017 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2017 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
On September 15 2017 05:59 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2017 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah

Not yet. You won’t get that until public hearings. The number I see thrown around is that it costs 32 trillion and we are projected to spend 49 trillion on healthcare. Of course, how make it work within the current infrastructure and government systems is the hardest part.


...what? our GDP isn't even that big. or is it over the course of a few years?


10 years (like most of these things are rated, but that was a previous version), we're heading toward healthcare being almost 25% of GDP by 2038 with current legislation.

Here's some of what I've seen regarding the math.

Show nested quote +
HOW MUCH WILL IT COST AND HOW DO WE PAY FOR IT?

HOW MUCH WILL IT COST?

This plan has been estimated to cost $1.38 trillion per year.

THE PLAN WOULD BE FULLY PAID FOR BY:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.

A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:
37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)

Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.

Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per year. Under Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.

The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year.This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.

Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year. Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year.Most importantly, health care provided by employers is compensation that is not subject to payroll taxes or income taxes under current law. This is a significant tax break that would effectively disappear under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new single-payer program instead of employer-based health care.


Source

Show nested quote +
On September 15 2017 06:03 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Do we even know what yet what premiums non-seniors would have to pay? Because Bernie's previous plan didn't involve premiums afaik (that's why he mostly talked tax cost vs current premiums). And his plan focused on no copays or deductibles, which is again not an actual component of Medicare (part D has cost sharing for sure, part A and B as well I think but am less sure on).

Of course it might be more useful to just ignore what Medicare actually is while still calling it Medicare for all (since the more accurate Medicaid for version has less positive associations, and even that still has some pittance cost sharing mechanisms for pharmacy benefits). Just look at cultural Marxism


Pretty sure it boils down to "Medicare for all" polling the best when it comes to this stuff.


this is the old plan.

@tenthdoc - i've heard some mixed things on tricare esp since admin shifted to DHA.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
September 14 2017 21:21 GMT
#174737
So what in the world do we do with the existing insurance companies? Would the US government purchase EVERY insurance company or something?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24390 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-14 21:24:03
September 14 2017 21:21 GMT
#174738
On September 15 2017 06:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2017 06:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On September 15 2017 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
On September 15 2017 05:59 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2017 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah

Not yet. You won’t get that until public hearings. The number I see thrown around is that it costs 32 trillion and we are projected to spend 49 trillion on healthcare. Of course, how make it work within the current infrastructure and government systems is the hardest part.


...what? our GDP isn't even that big. or is it over the course of a few years?


10 years (like most of these things are rated, but that was a previous version), we're heading toward healthcare being almost 25% of GDP by 2038 with current legislation.

Here's some of what I've seen regarding the math.

HOW MUCH WILL IT COST AND HOW DO WE PAY FOR IT?

HOW MUCH WILL IT COST?

This plan has been estimated to cost $1.38 trillion per year.

THE PLAN WOULD BE FULLY PAID FOR BY:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.

A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:
37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)

Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.

Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per year. Under Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.

The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year.This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.

Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year. Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year.Most importantly, health care provided by employers is compensation that is not subject to payroll taxes or income taxes under current law. This is a significant tax break that would effectively disappear under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new single-payer program instead of employer-based health care.


Source

On September 15 2017 06:03 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Do we even know what yet what premiums non-seniors would have to pay? Because Bernie's previous plan didn't involve premiums afaik (that's why he mostly talked tax cost vs current premiums). And his plan focused on no copays or deductibles, which is again not an actual component of Medicare (part D has cost sharing for sure, part A and B as well I think but am less sure on).

Of course it might be more useful to just ignore what Medicare actually is while still calling it Medicare for all (since the more accurate Medicaid for version has less positive associations, and even that still has some pittance cost sharing mechanisms for pharmacy benefits). Just look at cultural Marxism


Pretty sure it boils down to "Medicare for all" polling the best when it comes to this stuff.


this is the old plan.


Is it? I'm pretty sure the old one mentioned savings from prescription medications in part of how to pay for it, but I suspect it's not dramatically different. Still better than what we got though.

On September 15 2017 06:21 Mohdoo wrote:
So what in the world do we do with the existing insurance companies? Would the US government purchase EVERY insurance company or something?


Survival of the fittest I would imagine. There are private insurers in (all of the?) countries that have some form of Universal healthcare
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 14 2017 21:22 GMT
#174739
On September 15 2017 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2017 05:59 Plansix wrote:
On September 15 2017 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
did we get the math and transition plan for the medicare for all yet or nah

Not yet. You won’t get that until public hearings. The number I see thrown around is that it costs 32 trillion and we are projected to spend 49 trillion on healthcare. Of course, how make it work within the current infrastructure and government systems is the hardest part.


...what? our GDP isn't even that big. or is it over the course of a few years?

Over 10 years. Sorry. They were decade long projections.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 14 2017 21:26 GMT
#174740
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PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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