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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11995 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-10 02:24:22
February 10 2014 02:07 GMT
#17261
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 09:57 Simberto wrote:
It is also an utterly irrelevant discussion. Basically, i don't want someone who has a vested personal interest in people seeing a matter that is obviously not clear-cut in one specific way trying to influence what children get taught in school.

Now, for your examples, a firefighter talking about fire safety does not have a personal interest in the situation. He does not profit more if there are more or less fires. (Unless you have some really retarded setup where firefighters get paid by the amount of fires they fight, but why would anyone do that, it is just insane). A teacher talking about maths is doing his job. A slightly problematic situation would be a teacher talking about the education system.

See how all of those are utterly different from an oil company trying to get their claws on the people educating people and make them talk about oil drilling in a way that that company likes?

You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?


No, i mean the political way that ignores the problems that might exist and/or tells people they don't exist.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 10 2014 03:44 GMT
#17262
On February 10 2014 11:07 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
On February 10 2014 09:57 Simberto wrote:
It is also an utterly irrelevant discussion. Basically, i don't want someone who has a vested personal interest in people seeing a matter that is obviously not clear-cut in one specific way trying to influence what children get taught in school.

Now, for your examples, a firefighter talking about fire safety does not have a personal interest in the situation. He does not profit more if there are more or less fires. (Unless you have some really retarded setup where firefighters get paid by the amount of fires they fight, but why would anyone do that, it is just insane). A teacher talking about maths is doing his job. A slightly problematic situation would be a teacher talking about the education system.

See how all of those are utterly different from an oil company trying to get their claws on the people educating people and make them talk about oil drilling in a way that that company likes?

You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?


No, i mean the political way that ignores the problems that might exist and/or tells people they don't exist.

I remember in school, when we were taught about biology, cell division, and adaptation, they also framed it in the light of how genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
February 10 2014 05:37 GMT
#17263
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 10 2014 06:32 GMT
#17264
On February 10 2014 14:37 nunez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.

Address what point? That we're not educating kids on the social debate happening around the science and technology? Do you also want to "teach the controversy" on evolution and creationism? Right now, the relationship between fracking and environmental harm are about the same as evolution and creationism, to be frank. We already have entire class studies devoted to Earth preservation and nature, like the whole curriculum surrounding Earth Day. That stuff normally touches on environmentally dangerous substances and accidents, like oil spills and endangering ecosystems.

The only people embarrassing themselves are those that hate on anything related to oil companies (or at least to the best of their knowledge). There are bad teachers and firefighters with non-altruistic intentions, and there are entire departments in the oil and gas industry that want nothing more than to give what they can to the community. This is the real world, not Captain Planet.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
February 10 2014 06:48 GMT
#17265
So I found Danglers in RL:
“And you’re going to have [Karl] Rove throwing all of his money and American Crossroads throwing all of that money, plus the Chamber of Commerce, plus these ‘Main Street Republican’ partnership types who are funded by who? Big labor. And the tea party candidates, I think, are going to follow in the path of Ted Cruz and somehow be able to triumph over all of that money




http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/michelle-malkin-2014-elections-republicans-103284.html?hp=l7

Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11995 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-10 15:22:54
February 10 2014 14:14 GMT
#17266
On February 10 2014 15:32 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 14:37 nunez wrote:
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.

Address what point? That we're not educating kids on the social debate happening around the science and technology? Do you also want to "teach the controversy" on evolution and creationism? Right now, the relationship between fracking and environmental harm are about the same as evolution and creationism, to be frank. We already have entire class studies devoted to Earth preservation and nature, like the whole curriculum surrounding Earth Day. That stuff normally touches on environmentally dangerous substances and accidents, like oil spills and endangering ecosystems.

The only people embarrassing themselves are those that hate on anything related to oil companies (or at least to the best of their knowledge). There are bad teachers and firefighters with non-altruistic intentions, and there are entire departments in the oil and gas industry that want nothing more than to give what they can to the community. This is the real world, not Captain Planet.


The point that you don't want highly biased people influencing the education of our youth. Of course everyone has an opinion, and it is really hard to keep that from influencing what you are teaching to children (You should try to, though). However, not everyone has a personal interest. Getting rid of conflict of interest situations is generally a good idea. I would not want a guy from a company that makes solar panles trying to influence the teaching of climate change either.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-10 14:52:37
February 10 2014 14:51 GMT
#17267
On February 10 2014 15:32 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 14:37 nunez wrote:
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.

Address what point? That we're not educating kids on the social debate happening around the science and technology? Do you also want to "teach the controversy" on evolution and creationism? Right now, the relationship between fracking and environmental harm are about the same as evolution and creationism, to be frank. We already have entire class studies devoted to Earth preservation and nature, like the whole curriculum surrounding Earth Day. That stuff normally touches on environmentally dangerous substances and accidents, like oil spills and endangering ecosystems.

The only people embarrassing themselves are those that hate on anything related to oil companies (or at least to the best of their knowledge). There are bad teachers and firefighters with non-altruistic intentions, and there are entire departments in the oil and gas industry that want nothing more than to give what they can to the community. This is the real world, not Captain Planet.

Really ? The real world is people will fuck you over if they can and if they have an interest to do so, period. Be it cops, oil compagnies or fire fighters.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 10 2014 15:38 GMT
#17268
On February 10 2014 23:14 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 15:32 aksfjh wrote:
On February 10 2014 14:37 nunez wrote:
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.

Address what point? That we're not educating kids on the social debate happening around the science and technology? Do you also want to "teach the controversy" on evolution and creationism? Right now, the relationship between fracking and environmental harm are about the same as evolution and creationism, to be frank. We already have entire class studies devoted to Earth preservation and nature, like the whole curriculum surrounding Earth Day. That stuff normally touches on environmentally dangerous substances and accidents, like oil spills and endangering ecosystems.

The only people embarrassing themselves are those that hate on anything related to oil companies (or at least to the best of their knowledge). There are bad teachers and firefighters with non-altruistic intentions, and there are entire departments in the oil and gas industry that want nothing more than to give what they can to the community. This is the real world, not Captain Planet.


The point that you don't want highly biased people influencing the education of our youth. Of course everyone has an opinion, and it is really hard to keep that from influencing what you are teaching to children (You should try to, though). However, not everyone has a personal interest. Getting rid of conflict of interest situations is generally a good idea. I would not want a guy from a company that makes solar panles trying to influence the teaching of climate change either.

But what happens when the best sources to learn this material are from people with vested interest in a private venture? Just because there is a larger interest doesn't mean there is a serious conflict of interest. Ultimately, this is the case for a lot of fields, where the experts that create the curriculum have to be fed by some private enterprise or individual. We have to analyze and watch their involvement, but we cannot possibly eliminate all the conflicting interests with the current way government is set up without seriously crippling our youngest students' learning potential.
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
February 10 2014 15:45 GMT
#17269
I would rather children learn to be great productive employees improving the field of oil and gas. Teaching the basic premise of getting the filling out of twinkies without hurting the crust can have strong pro-environmental underpinnings. Our economy is screaming for qualified innovators not liberal arts majors and if we need private interest helping steer the curriculum into math and science majors then I'm all for it.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
February 10 2014 16:01 GMT
#17270
On February 10 2014 15:32 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 14:37 nunez wrote:
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.

Address what point? That we're not educating kids on the social debate happening around the science and technology? Do you also want to "teach the controversy" on evolution and creationism? Right now, the relationship between fracking and environmental harm are about the same as evolution and creationism, to be frank. We already have entire class studies devoted to Earth preservation and nature, like the whole curriculum surrounding Earth Day. That stuff normally touches on environmentally dangerous substances and accidents, like oil spills and endangering ecosystems.

The only people embarrassing themselves are those that hate on anything related to oil companies (or at least to the best of their knowledge). There are bad teachers and firefighters with non-altruistic intentions, and there are entire departments in the oil and gas industry that want nothing more than to give what they can to the community. This is the real world, not Captain Planet.


who do you think you're fooling? welcome to the real world... corporate sycophants like you and jonnyboo are really something special. you can't even aknowledge simberto's point without shoehorning it into a ridicolous strawman.

private interest groups have no business setting the teachers agenda, or any other public service's. those money are better spent paid in tax (not deducted from), spent with public oversight and the publics best interest at heart.

excellent article:
They may act with good intentions, but they define “good.” The arrangement remains thoroughly plutocratic: it is the exercise of wealth-derived power in the public sphere with minimal democratic controls and civic obligations.
source
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
February 10 2014 16:29 GMT
#17271
On February 11 2014 00:38 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2014 23:14 Simberto wrote:
On February 10 2014 15:32 aksfjh wrote:
On February 10 2014 14:37 nunez wrote:
On February 10 2014 10:54 aksfjh wrote:
You mean in the scientific way that actually improves understanding of science and engineering?
On February 10 2014 12:44 aksfjh wrote:
genetically modified organisms can cause devastating effects on human life. Wait, never mind, that didn't happen...


address his point, stop embarassing yourself.

Address what point? That we're not educating kids on the social debate happening around the science and technology? Do you also want to "teach the controversy" on evolution and creationism? Right now, the relationship between fracking and environmental harm are about the same as evolution and creationism, to be frank. We already have entire class studies devoted to Earth preservation and nature, like the whole curriculum surrounding Earth Day. That stuff normally touches on environmentally dangerous substances and accidents, like oil spills and endangering ecosystems.

The only people embarrassing themselves are those that hate on anything related to oil companies (or at least to the best of their knowledge). There are bad teachers and firefighters with non-altruistic intentions, and there are entire departments in the oil and gas industry that want nothing more than to give what they can to the community. This is the real world, not Captain Planet.


The point that you don't want highly biased people influencing the education of our youth. Of course everyone has an opinion, and it is really hard to keep that from influencing what you are teaching to children (You should try to, though). However, not everyone has a personal interest. Getting rid of conflict of interest situations is generally a good idea. I would not want a guy from a company that makes solar panles trying to influence the teaching of climate change either.

But what happens when the best sources to learn this material are from people with vested interest in a private venture? Just because there is a larger interest doesn't mean there is a serious conflict of interest. Ultimately, this is the case for a lot of fields, where the experts that create the curriculum have to be fed by some private enterprise or individual. We have to analyze and watch their involvement, but we cannot possibly eliminate all the conflicting interests with the current way government is set up without seriously crippling our youngest students' learning potential.

Here we are talking about basic stuff where you do not need the industry as directly as is the situation. If we were talking college or university, there is a clear need for cooperation with the industry and the pupils at those levels are much more schooled in fifth to seventh level learning so it is not as much of a problem there.

Teaching material has a level of scrutiny that live seminars will never achieve. If the material is freely available and has survived some level of scrutiny and critique before being handed to teachers it is not the problem here.

The problem is that we are talking stuff the teachers should be able to learn without needing influence from a person with more or less vested interests. Only by removing the seminars can you reduce the uncomfortable doubt.
Repeat before me
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
February 10 2014 16:42 GMT
#17272
On February 11 2014 00:45 Wolfstan wrote:
I would rather children learn to be great productive employees improving the field of oil and gas. Teaching the basic premise of getting the filling out of twinkies without hurting the crust can have strong pro-environmental underpinnings. Our economy is screaming for qualified innovators not liberal arts majors and if we need private interest helping steer the curriculum into math and science majors then I'm all for it.


Your economy is screaming out for the same thing that our economy is. Corporation tax from multi nationals.

Also a massive reorganising of the budget to reduce wasteful spending on defense and intelligence agencies.

But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-10 16:53:13
February 10 2014 16:52 GMT
#17273
US Suspect Possibly Targeted for Drone Attack
An American citizen who is a member of al-Qaida is actively planning attacks against Americans overseas, U.S. officials say, and the Obama administration is wrestling with whether to kill him with a drone strike and how to do so legally under its new stricter targeting policy issued last year.

The CIA drones watching him cannot strike because he's a U.S. citizen and the Justice Department must build a case against him, a task it hasn't completed.

Four U.S. officials said the American suspected terrorist is in a country that refuses U.S. military action on its soil and that has proved unable to go after him. And President Barack Obama's new policy says American suspected terrorists overseas can only be killed by the military, not the CIA, creating a policy conundrum for the White House.

Two of the officials described the man as an al-Qaida facilitator who has been directly responsible for deadly attacks against U.S. citizens overseas and who continues to plan attacks against them that would use improvised explosive devices.

But one U.S. official said the Defense Department was divided over whether the man is dangerous enough to merit the potential domestic fallout of killing an American without charging him with a crime or trying him, and the potential international fallout of such an operation in a country that has been resistant to U.S. action.


Source
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
February 10 2014 17:36 GMT
#17274
A new report says the government's budget deficit is set to fall to $514 billion for the current year, down substantially from last year and the lowest by far since President Barack Obama took office five years ago.

The Congressional Budget Office report credits higher tax revenues from the rebounding economy and sharp curbs on agency spending as the chief reason for the deficit's short-term decline.

But CBO sees the long-term deficit picture worsening by about $100 billion a year through the end of the decade because of slower growth in the economy over the coming decade than it had previously predicted.

Last year's deficit registered $680 billion. Obama inherited an economy in crisis and first-ever deficits exceeding $1 trillion.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/04/budget-deficit-cbo_n_4723511.html
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44295 Posts
February 10 2014 17:41 GMT
#17275
What I don't get is why his status as a US citizen is important here. If he wasn't American, but still was living in a sovereign nation that refused to allow US forces to invade its space and kill him, wouldn't there still be the same issue? Ultimately it comes down to how to deal with other nations acting contrary to your interests which makes this a failure of your diplomacy. Unless you wish to invade the world you need to make people want to help you which means offering them something they want. The guy isn't a citizen of the nation he's in, bribe the Interior Minister to have him picked up and delivered him over the border to somewhere you can have him shot.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
February 10 2014 17:47 GMT
#17276
It's because he's an American citizen that he has the right to due process of charges and trial before there can be a judgement of execution.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-10 17:57:10
February 10 2014 17:53 GMT
#17277
I think the US Senate needs to revoke his citizenship. (maybe this is only for naturalized citizens)

The problem is...if I went and joined the Canadian Army...then they can drop a drone on me no problem. You automatically renounce.

That makes up a bunch of folks who are renouncing their citizenship's in the US. Dual-citizen folks who are going to back to work for their home county's government...so they are forced to renounce.

Al-Qaida isn't a nation/country...that's the conflict with the law.

KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44295 Posts
February 10 2014 17:53 GMT
#17278
On February 11 2014 02:47 Wolfstan wrote:
It's because he's an American citizen that he has the right to due process of charges and trial before there can be a judgement of execution.

a) not stopped citizens being killed by the government in the past when the country permits them to get drone striked
b) American citizens are killed by the police all the time when necessary without a trial (resisting arrest, threatening officer or a member of the public etc)
c) the issue here is sovereignty, the country isn't co-operating, his US citizenship actually reduces his host country's obligation to him
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 10 2014 17:56 GMT
#17279
Here's some more "conflict of interest" I'm surprised more people don't jump in on. The NSA has algebra curriculum for students/teachers.

PDF link

Why don't we teach the other side to that? Shouldn't we scrutinize this information because it comes from the NSA, an organization that arguably violates our constitutional rights? Where are the demands from the freedom advocates that this information should be taught with a set of warnings about how this knowledge can be used to spy on US citizens?
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
February 10 2014 17:59 GMT
#17280
On February 11 2014 02:56 aksfjh wrote:
Here's some more "conflict of interest" I'm surprised more people don't jump in on. The NSA has algebra curriculum for students/teachers.

PDF link

Why don't we teach the other side to that? Shouldn't we scrutinize this information because it comes from the NSA, an organization that arguably violates our constitutional rights? Where are the demands from the freedom advocates that this information should be taught with a set of warnings about how this knowledge can be used to spy on US citizens?


You're saying the NSA is using algebra education in high school to violate our constitutional rights?
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