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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 18:41:10
August 25 2017 18:40 GMT
#171021
Leading voices in the tech industry—from Mark Zuckerberg to Sam Altman —are warning that increased automation risks leaving an unprecedented number of Americans permanently unemployed. In response, many concerned Silicon Valley luminaries have called for a universal basic income, or UBI. Guaranteed income from the government may seem like the easiest way to address long-term unemployment, but UBI fixes only the narrowest and most quantifiable problem joblessness causes: lack of a reliable income. It completely ignores, and may exacerbate, the larger complications of mass unemployment.

Finland has been testing a basic income for 2,000 of its unemployed citizens since January, and UBI proponents say the Nordic country is providing an example for the U.S. It will be interesting to see the Finnish results, but Americans shouldn’t read too much into the outcome of a small-scale, early-stage trial. Look instead to Saudi Arabia, which for decades has attempted the wholesale replacement of work with government subsidies. Perhaps more than half of all Saudis are unemployed and not seeking work. They live off payments funded by the country’s oil wealth.

And what has Saudi Arabia’s de facto UBI created? A population deeply resistant to work. Efforts by the Saudi government to diversify the economy have been hamstrung by the difficulty of getting Saudis to trade in their free income willingly for paid labor. Regular citizens lack dignity while the royal family lives a life of luxury. The technocratic elite has embraced relatively liberal values at odds with much of the society’s conservatism. These divisions have made the country a fertile recruiting ground for extremists.

It’s true that Saudi Arabia has a host of other social problems. For one, it is ruled by a hereditary monarchy and a strictly enforced set of religious laws. Yet the widespread economic disempowerment of its population has made it that much harder for the kingdom to address its other issues. Don’t expect the U.S. to fare any better if divided into “productive” and “unproductive” classes.

..


UBI would also weaken American democracy. How long before the well-educated, technocratic elites come to believe the unemployed underclass should no longer have the right to vote? Will the “useless class” react with gratitude for the handout and admiration for the increasingly divergent culture and values of the “productive class”? If Donald Trump’s election, and the elites’ reactions, are any indication, the opposite is likelier.

Rapid technological advancement is already presenting American workers with unprecedented difficulties. Facing this challenge is going to require creative approaches from the government and the private economy. UBI is a noble attempt. Perhaps it could work as only a supplement to earned income. But as currently envisioned, UBI addresses the material needs of citizens while undermining their aspirations.

www.wsj.com

Since we all have a tendency to gush over the idea of UBI (though yes, RvB's favorite NIT idea is somewhat better at facing many of these challenges).
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 25 2017 18:47 GMT
#171022
The slippery slope argument of UBI leading to people being stripped of voting rights requires several leaps of logic into Young Adult lit. Stripping non-working, UBI dependant people of voting rights would lead would likely have the same result as stripping voting rights from working people: riots and civil unrest.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42292 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 18:54:53
August 25 2017 18:48 GMT
#171023
Kinda weird that they use Saudi Arabia as an example of what an oil based payment to the population would look like in America, and not Alaska where they literally already have an oil based payment to the population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

Might I suggest that if America were to have something like that then it would probably look a whole lot more like Alaska (which is in America) than Saudi Arabia.

The whole terrifying mental exercise of what it might look like if it were applied in America loses a lot of its potency when you remember that it's been applied in America for 35 years straight.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 25 2017 18:49 GMT
#171024
But Saudi Arabia bad = UBI leads to Saudi Arabia style dictatorship.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
August 25 2017 18:51 GMT
#171025
The negative income tax just seems to be an unbreaucratic version of our current welfare programs, which is okay I guess but not hugely different from what we already have, but I've never understood how any nation is supposed to finance a genuine UBI, even if you pay everybody the minimum amount of money for sustenance you're basically spending half of the national budget on it.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
August 25 2017 18:55 GMT
#171026
On August 26 2017 03:27 Plansix wrote:
I swear that half of the people writing these articles lived in an alternate reality growing up. I’ve watched people get fired for liking black people as monkeys, apes and guerrilla’s since the 80s and 90s. In any number of contexts, accidental, harmless and intentional. This is nothing new and not political correctness being out of control.

I can't quite tell if you are making a joke, or if I somehow missed guerilla (like the freedom fighter variety, not gorilla) being a race-associated term?
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 25 2017 19:04 GMT
#171027
UBI seems like a more permanent version of welfare, which isn't particularly compatible with the idea of proper economic incentives for working more. Where welfare is a means to help the struggling to get on their feet, UBI would be a permanent incentive towards subsistence rather than towards working. An argument used for it way too often is one of simplicity, hardly a virtue in the face of an economy where "market magic" leads more and more towards cyclic behavior as a result of stupidity than to anything else.

The Saudi Arabia example certainly does seem fairly reductionist; not the whole article is linked but they definitely make a few leaps of logic to say Saudi Arabia = UBI. Still, Finland = Good = UBI is just as reductionist, so I wish neither would be used.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 19:08:34
August 25 2017 19:05 GMT
#171028
On August 26 2017 03:51 Nyxisto wrote:
The negative income tax just seems to be an unbreaucratic version of our current welfare programs, which is okay I guess but not hugely different from what we already have, but I've never understood how any nation is supposed to finance a genuine UBI, even if you pay everybody the minimum amount of money for sustenance you're basically spending half of the national budget on it.


just a brief thought - wouldn't a NIT be something conservatives would be more in favor of philosophically vs welfare programs since it's (i) in effect a "tax cut" (ii) lets people have choice over how they spend their dollaroos?

in other news, i may have to eat my words on hurricane harvey, though i hope i'm still right about it being overblown.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11780 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 19:11:47
August 25 2017 19:09 GMT
#171029
UBI is one of the better alternatives in the future scenario where there is very little work where humans will add value. The major alternative I see is to create jobs people have to do using the UBI money.

I personally prefer the most epic parks mankind has ever seen as the usage of UBI money. Normal parks, not entertainment ones with rides and so on.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3187 Posts
August 25 2017 19:11 GMT
#171030
On August 26 2017 03:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2017 03:27 Plansix wrote:
I swear that half of the people writing these articles lived in an alternate reality growing up. I’ve watched people get fired for liking black people as monkeys, apes and guerrilla’s since the 80s and 90s. In any number of contexts, accidental, harmless and intentional. This is nothing new and not political correctness being out of control.

I can't quite tell if you are making a joke, or if I somehow missed guerilla (like the freedom fighter variety, not gorilla) being a race-associated term?

Hahahaha the gorilla terran enters the fray
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 19:13:11
August 25 2017 19:11 GMT
#171031
On August 26 2017 03:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2017 03:27 Plansix wrote:
I swear that half of the people writing these articles lived in an alternate reality growing up. I’ve watched people get fired for liking black people as monkeys, apes and guerrilla’s since the 80s and 90s. In any number of contexts, accidental, harmless and intentional. This is nothing new and not political correctness being out of control.

I can't quite tell if you are making a joke, or if I somehow missed guerilla (like the freedom fighter variety, not gorilla) being a race-associated term?

Racists often uses different species of primates as insults towards blacks. It is still prevalent to this day. The words sound identical, so to tennis expert is isn’t a problem. To the casual listener, it is racist. Personally, I think the announcer could have easily walked it back with a simple explanation and apology saying he understood why it would offend people. But that doesn’t appear to be what happened.

Straight up, if someone referred to a black BW player as the guerrilla terran, it would be seen as super racist in the US. There is no avoiding that context here. Which is sad, but the nature of our country.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 19:14:50
August 25 2017 19:14 GMT
#171032
On August 26 2017 04:05 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2017 03:51 Nyxisto wrote:
The negative income tax just seems to be an unbreaucratic version of our current welfare programs, which is okay I guess but not hugely different from what we already have, but I've never understood how any nation is supposed to finance a genuine UBI, even if you pay everybody the minimum amount of money for sustenance you're basically spending half of the national budget on it.


just a brief thought - wouldn't a NIT be something conservatives would be more in favor of philosophically vs welfare programs since it's (i) in effect a "tax cut" (ii) lets people have choice over how they spend their dollaroos?

in other news, i may have to eat my words on hurricane harvey, though i hope i'm still right about it being overblown.


the "welfare makes you lazy" type conservative probably isn't going to support any kind of welfare, but yes it's been historically popular among "free to choose" laissez-faire economists like Friedman.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42292 Posts
August 25 2017 19:19 GMT
#171033
I disagree with Plansix. Homophones are fine unless someone is clearly using them to disguise what their meaning evidently is.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
August 25 2017 19:23 GMT
#171034
On August 26 2017 03:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2017 03:27 Plansix wrote:
I swear that half of the people writing these articles lived in an alternate reality growing up. I’ve watched people get fired for liking black people as monkeys, apes and guerrilla’s since the 80s and 90s. In any number of contexts, accidental, harmless and intentional. This is nothing new and not political correctness being out of control.

I can't quite tell if you are making a joke, or if I somehow missed guerilla (like the freedom fighter variety, not gorilla) being a race-associated term?

I would say that coming from a sports announcer/writer/etc., intentional sound and word association is far more likely than from an average person. Those people are absolutely obsessed with puns, especially when it comes to nicknaming and the like.

I mean, decent chance of it being innocent, if poorly chosen, words. But as a sportscaster, there will be the automatic "hyuk hyuk what clever wordplay" response, no matter the intent.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42292 Posts
August 25 2017 19:25 GMT
#171035
If he said "Venus' upper body strength is on full display here, this is guerrilla tennis" that'd be a pretty transparent code. But he didn't. It's just a homophone.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 25 2017 19:27 GMT
#171036
On August 26 2017 04:19 KwarK wrote:
I disagree with Plansix. Homophones are fine unless someone is clearly using them to disguise what their meaning evidently is.

They can be fine, but you need to explain them over and over. And fully accept that they can appear racists without full context. People make the mistake of ignoring the racist overtones or going full denial by saying “its not racist”, rather than simply owning all of the meanings.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35118 Posts
August 25 2017 19:28 GMT
#171037
On August 26 2017 04:27 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2017 04:19 KwarK wrote:
I disagree with Plansix. Homophones are fine unless someone is clearly using them to disguise what their meaning evidently is.

They can be fine, but you need to explain them over and over. And fully accept that they can appear racists without full context. People make the mistake of ignoring the racist overtones or going full denial by saying “its not racist”, rather than simply owning all of the meanings.

Which he probably would have done if he wasn't fired over it.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 19:34:39
August 25 2017 19:30 GMT
#171038
On August 26 2017 04:25 KwarK wrote:
If he said "Venus' upper body strength is on full display here, this is guerrilla tennis" that'd be a pretty transparent code. But he didn't. It's just a homophone.

It looks like the quote was "put the guerilla effect on, charging".

"Charging" is like the exact opposite of guerilla warfare or tactics, and maybe there is some association that I'm not familiar with, but "charge like a gorilla" makes far more sense than "charge like a guerilla".

Edit: Actually, from the quote only it seems far more likely that the intent was "gorilla" all along. But maybe the video and the rest of the context paints a different picture.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 25 2017 19:38 GMT
#171039
Am I the only one who thinks that it really doesn't matter, that neither one is really anything to be offended about?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
August 25 2017 19:39 GMT
#171040
On August 26 2017 04:38 LegalLord wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that it really doesn't matter, that neither one is really anything to be offended about?

Queue 5 page discussion on hippy liberals being offended over words.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
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