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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 19 2017 00:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote:
[quote]
Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Getting away from the topic of rioting and free speech for a second, what about the constant violations of the civil rights of the black population of Ferguson that the investigation revealed? Where were you in defence of their rights?
I've made it clear previously that I am on board with the idea that the police need reforming and that there's a problem regarding how black people are treated by the justice system. So I'm not sure what else you want.
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On August 19 2017 00:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:39 farvacola wrote:
You're familiar enough with the law to know that "hey look, a Wild Supreme Court decision" practically never solves anything aside from establishing that the speaker has familiarity with a case note. So? You already know what the response would be if I pointed out that someone had no Idea what they were talking about (quite possibly in error) and then failed to give the correct explanation. Use your head.
Please, even I have stuck up for you when you were making sound points about the breakdown of a case or legal matter. No one in this thread should be throwing around Supreme court cases and saying “behold, The Justices agree with me”.
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On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views.
No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores?
I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice.
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On August 19 2017 00:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:35 Danglars wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? What part of expressly referring to rioters and looters do you not understand? The part where that's "causing mayhem" or the part where it's singling out people based on their actions and not their group identity? The part where BLM is needed. They did what they did and stayed where they said they would protest. Why say BLM and the rioters and looters? Those are wholly separate entities there. The game can be played both ways, as you're still saying that segments of the white supremacy rally were there for violence and some were not. But do you understand how asinine that sentiment is?
I thought when you acknowledged that there was a "fringe that joined the party" that you'd understand criticism of rioters and looters referred to the BLM fringe, of whatever proportion of the larger movement they represent. I haven't noted any leadership actively calling for arson, violent riots, and looting.
When violence breaks out at BLM protest, you might expect even African Americans to wonder when the mayor will crack down on the rioting and looting (they owned many affected businesses in Ferguson) without needing to specify that the peaceful contingent doesn't need to be cracked down upon.
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Any violent actor should be arrested and charged. The main objection is the false equivalence between drawn between the white supremacists and counter protesters. The counter protesters are protesting against an ideology that runs counter to what our country is founded on, equality for all.
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On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice.
Except you can't use generic terms.
Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused".
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Sanya12364 Posts
On August 19 2017 00:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:41 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 farvacola wrote:
You're familiar enough with the law to know that "hey look, a Wild Supreme Court decision" practically never solves anything aside from establishing that the speaker has familiarity with a case note. So? You already know what the response would be if I pointed out that someone had no Idea what they were talking about (quite possibly in error) and then failed to give the correct explanation. Use your head. Please, even I have stuck up for you when you were making sound points about the breakdown of a case or legal matter. No one in this thread should be throwing around Supreme court cases and saying “behold, The Justices agree with me”.
I don't see how there is any equivocation on how strong decisions have been on protection of free speech. It is very strong and much stronger than any of the examples that posters have come up with.
There is also a widely accepted definition for what it means to "brandish a weapon" and the crossover from peaceful bearing of arms to a threatening one.
Even with these clear guidelines, keeping the peace is still not easy. So what.
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United States42008 Posts
On August 19 2017 00:47 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:33 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Getting away from the topic of rioting and free speech for a second, what about the constant violations of the civil rights of the black population of Ferguson that the investigation revealed? Where were you in defence of their rights? I've made it clear previously that I am on board with the idea that the police need reforming and that there's a problem regarding how black people are treated by the justice system. So I'm not sure what else you want.
Thank you for that. So presumably you disagree with Sessions ending the justice department investigations into these police departments? Will you be marching peacefully alongside BLM when the time comes?
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On August 19 2017 00:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice. Except you can't use generic terms. Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused".
In body armor, with rifles and bats. And throwing racial slurs at blacks passing by the protest.
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On August 19 2017 00:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:41 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 farvacola wrote:
You're familiar enough with the law to know that "hey look, a Wild Supreme Court decision" practically never solves anything aside from establishing that the speaker has familiarity with a case note. So? You already know what the response would be if I pointed out that someone had no Idea what they were talking about (quite possibly in error) and then failed to give the correct explanation. Use your head. Please, even I have stuck up for you when you were making sound points about the breakdown of a case or legal matter. No one in this thread should be throwing around Supreme court cases and saying “behold, The Justices agree with me”.
Look, I think that there are some things that case law can make very clear such that that type of conclusive statement can be made. My only point is that I don't know enough about what TanGeng is putting out there to comment, and it would be bullshit if, as farv suggested, I made a post telling TanGeng that he has no idea what he's talking about and just left it at that. I may go look at the material later, but I don't have time for that kind of post right now.
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On August 19 2017 00:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:47 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:33 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Getting away from the topic of rioting and free speech for a second, what about the constant violations of the civil rights of the black population of Ferguson that the investigation revealed? Where were you in defence of their rights? I've made it clear previously that I am on board with the idea that the police need reforming and that there's a problem regarding how black people are treated by the justice system. So I'm not sure what else you want. Thank you for that. So presumably you disagree with Sessions ending the justice department investigations into these police departments? Will you be marching peacefully alongside BLM when the time comes?
I'll consider it when you start showing a commitment to refraining from shitting up the thread with irrelevant tangents.
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On August 19 2017 00:45 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:35 farvacola wrote:
It's hilarious to me that xDaunt lets TanGeng get away with these half-assed, hand wavey gestures towards Supreme Court cases when we all know that "I'm a lawyer, you're out of your depth" admonishments would be thrown at the first liberal to make a sloppy reference to inherently complicated common law precedents.
So here, allow me: pointing to "clear and present danger" doctrine in the vein of Brandenburg in no way solves the difficult problems inherent to enforcing restrictions on public displays of speech that cross the line into true threats. Brandenburg strengthened the protection of speech to imminent lawless action, only clarifying clear and present danger. The decision gives justices of the peace agency to act when appropriate. It doesn't make the job of justices of the peace easy. If it was easy, we wouldn't need so many police or pay them at all well. Again, in our civil society, the side that resorts to violence is losing the war. It is especially true of a minority opinion as is the case.
Common law precedent only delineates the contours of a framework through which lower courts must work in order to try and solve a particular legal problem. Constitutional protections are not a talisman endowed on individuals/actions that fit into the frame of a precedent, they are peformative rule-based iterations of enforcement and/or judgment that necessarily bend and change in relation to the facts of the issue at hand.
Accordingly, even something as relatively straightforward as the age of a precedent leaves ample room for quibbling with the application of a test like that of "imminent lawless action."
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On August 19 2017 00:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice. Except you can't use generic terms. Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused". In body armor, with rifles and bats. And throwing racial slurs at blacks passing by the protest.
I mean, even ignoring any of that, if hypothetically there was a Nazi rally where they calmly and politely handed out pamphlets and gave friendly talks about the benefits of wiping out ethnic groups, I would question anyone calling that a "peaceful demonstration".
There's a reason why causing fear of imminent harm is also a criminal charge.
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On August 19 2017 00:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice. Except you can't use generic terms. Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused".
Looks like you need a refresher course in what free speech actually means. Yes, free speech means that Nazis get to promote white supremacism. It may also mean that they get to advocate ethnic cleansing (like I said, I don't know where the boundary on content is).
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On August 19 2017 00:45 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:36 Nebuchad wrote:On August 19 2017 00:23 Danglars wrote:On August 19 2017 00:13 Nebuchad wrote:On August 19 2017 00:04 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 23:56 Nebuchad wrote:On August 18 2017 23:54 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:On August 18 2017 23:39 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:45 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Does it ever occur to you that if you actually make your point instead of showing all of this outrage and some snide remarks, conversations tend to go faster? You were perfectly clear at what you meant and I was perfectly clear about what I found objectionable. I never demanded you acknowledge my point, it's your right to note or not note our disagreement about the impact on civil society. Just don't try to skirt by it and pretend someone's zooming in on the word "mistake." That has a history of making conversations anything but conversations. No you weren't clear. Sorry if you thought you were. You stated the violence against Nazis were permissible and did not present a threat to society. You stated that your condemnation of Antifa was predicated on them making a mistake and not targeting Nazis. I think the protection of citizens against violence applies despite disagreeing with their words and opinions. I agree with you. Protection against violence applies despite disagreeing with their words and opinions. The problem with the nazis isn't that I disagree with their words and opinions. It's that they're nazis. I would never hold the position that I hold if the only problem with the nazis was that I disagreed with them politically. Obviously, you don't agree with me, because you're carving an exemption for Nazis that they don't deserve the ordinary protection of their persons against violence that other US citizens enjoy. What about their chosen ideology causes them to forfeit their constitutional rights and police protections? Since you don't accuse me of being unclear now, I won't re-quote the reason you omitted as to why I think your opinion is dangerous to society. You have portrayed my objection to the idea that nazism is deserving of free speech as being due to the fact that I disagree with them politically. That was incorrect. This is not why I don't think nazis deserve free speech. I agree with you however that people who disagree with me politically deserve free speech, so your objection to my position was unfounded. Ideologies don't have free speech, individuals have free speech. I'm having a dickens of a time learning on why grounds you permit violence against a US citizen professing nazism. I think they're deserving a protection against violence, and I'm going to need more than "It's that they're nazis," for your rationale. Since this is our fourth or fifth go-around, I'm leaning towards your unstated reason being that certain classes of citizens are just so sub-human that they're asking for it. So, for the last time, do you have a specific reason for your justification of violence against Nazis beyond "It's that they're nazis?" "It's that they're nazis" isn't a closed sentence. It's supposed to evoke in your mind how nazis are bad. You know, this whole "killing a bunch of people not by accident, not colaterally, but by design". This whole "belief in the superiority of a race over the others and wish to improve humanity's gene pool by eliminating the untermensch". There's also this whole problem with being completely opposed to free speech, and absolutely uninterested in rational discourse which makes it impossible to reason with them. You can also make the argument that they are inherently violent cause nobody who is peaceful looks at fucking Hitler and thinks "What a role model, I should probably adhere to a movement whose name is associated to this guy". Those are the few that came to my mind directly, I'm sure you can find a few more if you put your mind to it. So their beliefs cause them to forfeit their rights as citizens. Okay, that's all I wanted to learn at this point. Sorry for being unclear at the start.
First of all I am extremely amused that you pretend to be offended at the idea that some beliefs can be so extreme that they are worthy of a self-defense argument. That's a rightwing idea if I've ever seen one, it's made against muslims invading western culture at least on a weekly basis. I hope I will see you attack that idea with the same scorn next time this happens.
Second, I wasn't making a legal argument. "Forfeit their rights as citizen", yeah, okay, that's true. I don't think you should have those rights but you do, that's alright. I'm not advocating for the nazis to get arrested under your laws, am I. I'm just fine with them getting any (negative) reaction.
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United States42008 Posts
On August 19 2017 01:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:57 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 00:47 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:33 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics. Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Getting away from the topic of rioting and free speech for a second, what about the constant violations of the civil rights of the black population of Ferguson that the investigation revealed? Where were you in defence of their rights? I've made it clear previously that I am on board with the idea that the police need reforming and that there's a problem regarding how black people are treated by the justice system. So I'm not sure what else you want. Thank you for that. So presumably you disagree with Sessions ending the justice department investigations into these police departments? Will you be marching peacefully alongside BLM when the time comes? I'll consider it when you start showing a commitment to refraining from shitting up the thread with irrelevant tangents.
Let's assume I don't refrain. You'll refuse to defend the civil rights of African Americans while continuing to defend the civil rights of Nazis, all the while insisting that it's not about the Nazis, you just really want all civil rights to be defended?
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On August 19 2017 01:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice. Except you can't use generic terms. Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused". Looks like you need a refresher course in what free speech actually means. Yes, free speech means that Nazis get to promote white supremacism. It may also mean that they get to advocate ethnic cleansing (like I said, I don't know where the boundary on content is).
If that truly constitutes free speech. My lord...
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On August 19 2017 01:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 23:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Your passionate defence of civil rights would seem a whole lot more genuine if you showed up when people who weren't Nazis were getting their rights infringed upon. If you turn a blind eye when non Nazis are impacted then it gives the appearance that it was never actually about rights, it was just about Nazis. I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice. Except you can't use generic terms. Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused". Looks like you need a refresher course in what free speech actually means. Yes, free speech means that Nazis get to promote white supremacism. It may also mean that they get to advocate ethnic cleansing (like I said, I don't know where the boundary on content is).
Free speech has limits, even in the United States, and "threats" in varying shapes and forms are covered by a wide range of them.
Now, I don't know if advocating ethnic cleansing falls under those laws already either. I'd be surprised if they didn't, but regardless, we're discussing the coulds and shoulds.
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On August 19 2017 01:01 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 00:45 TanGeng wrote:On August 19 2017 00:35 farvacola wrote:
It's hilarious to me that xDaunt lets TanGeng get away with these half-assed, hand wavey gestures towards Supreme Court cases when we all know that "I'm a lawyer, you're out of your depth" admonishments would be thrown at the first liberal to make a sloppy reference to inherently complicated common law precedents.
So here, allow me: pointing to "clear and present danger" doctrine in the vein of Brandenburg in no way solves the difficult problems inherent to enforcing restrictions on public displays of speech that cross the line into true threats. Brandenburg strengthened the protection of speech to imminent lawless action, only clarifying clear and present danger. The decision gives justices of the peace agency to act when appropriate. It doesn't make the job of justices of the peace easy. If it was easy, we wouldn't need so many police or pay them at all well. Again, in our civil society, the side that resorts to violence is losing the war. It is especially true of a minority opinion as is the case. Common law precedent only delineates the contours of a framework through which lower courts must work in order to try and solve a particular legal problem. Constitutional protections are not a talisman endowed on individuals/actions that fit into the frame of a precedent, they are peformative rule-based iterations of enforcement and/or judgment that necessarily bend and change in relation to the facts of the issue at hand. Accordingly, even something as relatively straightforward as the age of a precedent leaves ample room for quibbling with the application of a test like that of "imminent lawless action."
I think you are over-complicating things a bit. There most certainly are cases where courts -- even the US Supreme Court -- create fairly bright line rules that are easy to apply. Again, I don't know whether that's the case with what TanGeng is citing (I'd have to look), but I don't think you're being particularly fair or even accurate attacking him in the abstract.
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On August 19 2017 01:09 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 01:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 19 2017 00:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:42 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 19 2017 00:24 xDaunt wrote:On August 19 2017 00:15 Acrofales wrote:On August 19 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I never really have much of an opportunity to defend the leftist free speech rights because people on the right -- even the extreme right -- seem to be better at tolerating public discourse and don't try to start shit at lawful rallies. But when Ann Coulter shows up at Berkeley, that's a five-alarm fire for the various asshole factions of the left. Wasn't everybody protesting at Ferguson vermin? I remember you advocating they send in the national guard and didn't really care what happened to them if and when that happened. If BLM wants to demonstrate peaceably, I have no problem with that. I expressly referred to the rioters and looters as vermin. There is no constitutional protection to destroy the property of others. When that happens, regardless of who is doing it, I will always advocate sending in the authorities to clear the vermin out, whether it be BLM, Nazis, or the Girl Scouts of America. Wasn't it also noted that those rioters and looters were not form Ferguson and that they had the explicit intent on causing mayhem? Why would you call BLM vermin and not the fringe that joined the party to start shit? You are badly missing the point. I don't give a fuck who they are. But you seem to care that antifa counter-protested nazis. I'm just trying to understand your point of views. No, you really aren't. Give this a try. Stop using the terms BLM, Nazis, or Antifa, and use the generic term "Party A." What should the police do if "Party A" demonstrates peaceably? What should the police do if "Party A" tries to start a fight with "Party B?" What should the police do if Party A sets fires to buildings, cars, and loots stores? I swear, half of the Left has forgotten why there's a blindfold on Lady Justice. Except you can't use generic terms. Because these are Nazis. So "demonstrating peacefully" means "we are very nicely promoting the ideas of white supremacy and ethnic cleansing that our idol espoused". Looks like you need a refresher course in what free speech actually means. Yes, free speech means that Nazis get to promote white supremacism. It may also mean that they get to advocate ethnic cleansing (like I said, I don't know where the boundary on content is). If that truly constitutes free speech. My lord...
It does in the US. We have a very hands off view on speech. Ethnic cleansing is not considered a direct threat.
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