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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
August 08 2017 07:28 GMT
#166361
On August 08 2017 15:20 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 12:23 xDaunt wrote:
So who here has been following what's been going on over at Google? For those that don't know, a Google employee published this, setting off a shitstorm at the company, which apparently has resulted in Google firing him. What say y'all?


"Damore is an Illinois native who graduated from the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy in 2007, according to his Facebook page. As a child, Damore was a chess champion, earning the FIDE Master title, putting him in the >99th percentile, according to his CV. He won regional tournaments in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007, and finished second in the Nation Youth Action 2"003 Chess Tournament. He was also the highest ranked player in the world in the video game Rise of Nations in 2004.

Yes, Google is a company that cares a lot about vanity achievements like that. Apply to any job of theirs and they'll ask about pointless shit like SAT scores, high school awards, and the like.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Fifa18coins
Profile Joined August 2017
0 Posts
August 08 2017 07:40 GMT
#166362
--- Nuked ---
rageprotosscheesy
Profile Joined June 2017
36 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 07:45:37
August 08 2017 07:41 GMT
#166363
The guy screwed up because he put a target in his back. If you are a woman, could you honestly work with this guy in good faith?

Unless your business is literally an old boys club, you're getting canned for doing something like this in corporate workplaces. You're not in an environment where you can sit in a cubicle where no one talks to you while you code 9 to 5 every week. You're going to have to talk, communicate and collaborate with everyone of different ethnicities, political beliefs, socioeconomic backgrounds and so forth.

You can have opinions about things in the workplace. But you have to not be an idiot and actually be mindful of what you say and do to your colleagues if you're not an anti-social tool. If you went to a KKK rally as an NBA player, you'd get traded to a bottom rung team before the end of the season because you're basically locker room cancer at that point. Same thing here.

And before anyone starts accusing Google of being snowflakes, you can still hold these opinions. You just can't be a tool about it, which so many people struggle to understand for whatever reason.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
August 08 2017 07:44 GMT
#166364
In a way it reminds me of "young people are just smarter" in its self-entitled SV-esque interpretation of the world. But with far less tact and for a far less approving audience.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 07:48:56
August 08 2017 07:47 GMT
#166365
You also kind of have to be an idiot to publish this when Google is actively under investigation for gender pay discrimination. Of course they're going to fire you at that point.

On August 08 2017 15:20 IgnE wrote:
"Damore is an Illinois native who graduated from the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy in 2007

Interesting, I know quite a few people that would have been classmates of his.

Now I'm kind of curious to ask what he was like in high school, lol.
Moderator
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 08 2017 07:55 GMT
#166366
WTF NY Times....

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
rageprotosscheesy
Profile Joined June 2017
36 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 08:00:05
August 08 2017 07:59 GMT
#166367
I should add that recruiters and interviewers often aren't too concerned about your technical proficiency as long as you show that you are competent. Very often, weaker candidates beat stronger/more technically capable candidates due to raw social capability. No business wants an asshole making things difficult for everyone.

I still have no goddamn idea why anyone would write such a thing in a private corporate environment unless you want a successful GoFundMe page.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23451 Posts
August 08 2017 08:13 GMT
#166368
On August 08 2017 16:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
WTF NY Times....

https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/894636582589923328



For now, at least, Lenin’s legacy is preserved and Russia remains the world leader, ahead of Brazil and Australia, in protecting the most land at the highest level. Russian naturalists continue to advance their not-yet-hopeless cause of keeping free a few vast landscapes on this planet where humans do not tread.


I feel like Australia is cheating by "protecting" land you couldn't pay people to inhabit/destroy, but I don't know. A curious choice of story none the less.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6232 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 08:27:24
August 08 2017 08:26 GMT
#166369
You'd be surprised at the amount of native bushland various farmers/miners/loggers want to clear.

That said, our environmental record really isn't that great, and "most land in national parks" is a pretty dumb metric that's obviously biased towards wilderness countries like Russia and Aus.

Really, Brazil's presiding over the utter destruction of huge chunks of the Amazon probably makes them the most questionable in that group.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14045 Posts
August 08 2017 08:30 GMT
#166370
Google isn't a corporate environment they're a tech company that has allowed dissent against executives to be discussed on their private boards. They're aparently worried that this will send a message if they fire him that minority opinions or unpopular opinions are unspeakable if you want to keep your job. I don't agree with what he said but it's hard to draw the line on what ideas get you fired when you express them and what don't get you fired.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 08:33:11
August 08 2017 08:32 GMT
#166371
On August 08 2017 16:28 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2017 15:20 IgnE wrote:
On August 08 2017 12:23 xDaunt wrote:
So who here has been following what's been going on over at Google? For those that don't know, a Google employee published this, setting off a shitstorm at the company, which apparently has resulted in Google firing him. What say y'all?


"Damore is an Illinois native who graduated from the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy in 2007, according to his Facebook page. As a child, Damore was a chess champion, earning the FIDE Master title, putting him in the >99th percentile, according to his CV. He won regional tournaments in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007, and finished second in the Nation Youth Action 2"003 Chess Tournament. He was also the highest ranked player in the world in the video game Rise of Nations in 2004.

Yes, Google is a company that cares a lot about vanity achievements like that. Apply to any job of theirs and they'll ask about pointless shit like SAT scores, high school awards, and the like.


You really have no clue what you're talking about, and you should really stop trying to sound like you're educated about any of these topics, because your complete lack of knowledge is self-evident to anyone who's been around Google or anywhere similar in tech.

Everything you say has a tone of pretentious "levitating above the rest of people". Honestly.
There is no one like you in the universe.
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 08:41:12
August 08 2017 08:39 GMT
#166372
On August 08 2017 16:41 rageprotosscheesy wrote:
The guy screwed up because he put a target in his back. If you are a woman, could you honestly work with this guy in good faith?

Unless your business is literally an old boys club, you're getting canned for doing something like this in corporate workplaces. You're not in an environment where you can sit in a cubicle where no one talks to you while you code 9 to 5 every week. You're going to have to talk, communicate and collaborate with everyone of different ethnicities, political beliefs, socioeconomic backgrounds and so forth.

You can have opinions about things in the workplace. But you have to not be an idiot and actually be mindful of what you say and do to your colleagues if you're not an anti-social tool. If you went to a KKK rally as an NBA player, you'd get traded to a bottom rung team before the end of the season because you're basically locker room cancer at that point. Same thing here.

And before anyone starts accusing Google of being snowflakes, you can still hold these opinions. You just can't be a tool about it, which so many people struggle to understand for whatever reason.

What was it exactly that he wrote that could offend someone to the point of not being able to work with him? It really wasn't on the level of KKK or redpill or the_donald subreddits.

I find it bewildering. In my company there are now 15 full-time people and we discuss these issues a lot during lunchtime and morning coffee, particularly the gender diversity in tech issue which is kind of core to our business. We have people more to the right of this Damore guy and we have people on the left. No problems have arisen and conversations have been quite open. The fact that these issues can't be discussed among coworkers at google means to me that the work environment there must be quite toxic.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7917 Posts
August 08 2017 09:12 GMT
#166373
On August 08 2017 16:26 SoSexy wrote:
That guy is right. The idea that men and women are completely interchangeable at every job is simply wrong and there is nothing absurd about that. Why is it wrong to say that in 99% of the cases a random man will be a better miner than a woman? Is this sexist? No. It's how humans are designed. The majority of women, for example, are better at works like primary school teacher because they have more empathy with the kids. Exceptions don't matter in the grand scheme. I don't care about 'but my X was great even if he wasn't a woman..' etc.

Women are physically weaker than men. That explains the miner thing.
Women have sometimes different instincts towards children than men. That being said by best primary school teachers were male. But we can make a case there, it's a hormonal thing.

Now, I fail to find a reason why women would be worse at tech jobs. I read the text of that guy, he doesn't explain it either. It's a bunch of clichés à-la "Men are from Mars Women are from Venus", he whines a lot about women getting a better treatment because they are more agreable (which is, frankly, bullshit) but never mentions what would actually justify the gender gap in terms of inherent skill.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11622 Posts
August 08 2017 09:19 GMT
#166374
On August 08 2017 10:23 Sermokala wrote:
Your post is pretty bad and you should feel bad. Bernie sanders plan is single payer health care and you didn't even give context for your "$18 Trillion in the hole" quote. It would be increasing federal deifcits by $18 Trillion over a decade If we belive the stats that you quote.

You can't use analysis of a system based on data from a completely different system. Use data from the system from other implementation of the system and scale it up for the US. Thats what you would do for anything else. OFC its going to be hella expensive to tax the populace for a quarter or more of the economy to go through the government from now on but its worked in every other situation its been used and the system we have now is barely getting us by.


Whenever this comes up, i like to mention that the US currently pays about as much government money for healthcare as most countries that have universal healthcare. In addition to that, they pay way more private money. (Obviously all per capita)
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
August 08 2017 09:19 GMT
#166375
I don't think the argument was that women are generally worse at it, rather than that they are generally less inclined to pursue careers as programmers.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
August 08 2017 09:21 GMT
#166376
On August 08 2017 17:26 Belisarius wrote:
You'd be surprised at the amount of native bushland various farmers/miners/loggers want to clear.

That said, our environmental record really isn't that great, and "most land in national parks" is a pretty dumb metric that's obviously biased towards wilderness countries like Russia and Aus.

Really, Brazil's presiding over the utter destruction of huge chunks of the Amazon probably makes them the most questionable in that group.

You mean international corporations paying politicians to turn a blind eye to deforestation for soy and cattle production presiding over the utter destruction of huge chunks of the amazonian rain forest.
passive quaranstream fan
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 09:25:46
August 08 2017 09:22 GMT
#166377
Only 20% women graduate in computer sciences. Therefore, expecting to have 50/50 gender distribution is nearly impossible. I'll paste a great comment from Reddit:

+ Show Spoiler +
I work for a small, established Silicon Valley company of about 25 people. There were about 22 men and 3 women. But I felt the company is unbiased fair in its hiring processes. And of those 3 women, one was the VP of the company; a role no one ever doubted she deserved because she was exceptional at her job.
The reality at my company and at many companies across the tech industry is that there are more qualified men than there are women. Here me out before you downvote. Im not saying women aren't smart and aren't capable of being just as qualified for these jobs.
But, the thing is, this cultural push to get more women involved in engineering and the sciences only started in the 2000s. To score a high level position at a company like mine, you need to know your shit. ie, you need education and experience. All the people available in the workforce with the required experience have been working 10-30 years in the industry; meaning they went to college in the 1970s and 1980s.
So where are all the women with this experience and education? Well just arent many. And thats just a fact. In 1971-72, it was estimated that only 17% of engineering students were women. That trend didnt change much in the following years. In 2003, it was estimated that 80% of new engineers were men, and 20% women.
This isnt an attack on women, and its not an endorsement saying that there isnt sexism in the workplace - sexism can and does affect a womans career. But the idea that 50% of the tech workforce should be women is just not based in reason. Now - in the 2010s - there is a concerted effort to get girls (yes - this starts at a young age) and women interested in STEM at school and college. But these efforts wont pay off now. Theyll pay off 20-30 years from now.
There should be laws protecting women in tech; equal pay laws should apply everywhere. And claims that women are held back because of sexism shouldnt be dismissed lightly - it is a problem. But to cry wolf just because there is a disproportionate number of men in the industry right now is not a logically sound argument.
Dating thread on TL LUL
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 08 2017 10:13 GMT
#166378
WASHINGTON — The average temperature in the United States has risen rapidly and drastically since 1980, and recent decades have been the warmest of the past 1,500 years, according to a sweeping federal climate change report awaiting approval by the Trump administration.

The draft report by scientists from 13 federal agencies, which has not yet been made public, concludes that Americans are feeling the effects of climate change right now. It directly contradicts claims by President Trump and members of his cabinet who say that the human contribution to climate change is uncertain, and that the ability to predict the effects is limited.

“Evidence for a changing climate abounds, from the top of the atmosphere to the depths of the oceans,” a draft of the report states. A copy of it was obtained by The New York Times.

The authors note that thousands of studies, conducted by tens of thousands of scientists, have documented climate changes on land and in the air. “Many lines of evidence demonstrate that human activities, especially emissions of greenhouse (heat-trapping) gases, are primarily responsible for recent observed climate change,” they wrote.

The report was completed this year and is a special science section of the National Climate Assessment, which is congressionally mandated every four years. The National Academy of Sciences has signed off on the draft report, and the authors are awaiting permission from the Trump administration to release it.

One government scientist who worked on the report, Katharine Hayhoe, a professor of political science at Texas Tech University, called the conclusions among “the most comprehensive climate science reports” to be published. Another scientist involved in the process, who spoke to The New York Times on the condition of anonymity, said he and others were concerned that it would be suppressed.

The White House and the Environmental Protection Agency did not immediately return calls or respond to emails requesting comment on Monday night.

The report concludes that even if humans immediately stopped emitting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, the world would still feel at least an additional 0.50 degrees Fahrenheit (0.30 degrees Celsius) of warming over this century compared with today. The projected actual rise, scientists say, will be as much as 2 degrees Celsius.

A small difference in global temperatures can make a big difference in the climate: The difference between a rise in global temperatures of 1.5 degrees Celsius and one of 2 degrees Celsius, for example, could mean longer heat waves, more intense rainstorms and the faster disintegration of coral reefs.

Among the more significant of the study’s findings is that it is possible to attribute some extreme weather to climate change. The field known as “attribution science” has advanced rapidly in response to increasing risks from climate change.

The E.P.A. is one of 13 agencies that must approve the report by Aug. 18. The agency’s administrator, Scott Pruitt, has said he does not believe that carbon dioxide is a primary contributor to global warming.

“It’s a fraught situation,” said Michael Oppenheimer, a professor of geoscience and international affairs at Princeton University who was not involved in the study. “This is the first case in which an analysis of climate change of this scope has come up in the Trump administration, and scientists will be watching very carefully to see how they handle it.”

Scientists say they fear that the Trump administration could change or suppress the report. But those who challenge scientific data on human-caused climate change say they are equally worried that the draft report, as well as the larger National Climate Assessment, will be publicly released.

The National Climate Assessment “seems to be on autopilot” because of a lack of political direction, said Myron Ebell, a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

The report says significant advances have been made linking human influence to individual extreme weather events since the last National Climate Assessment was produced in 2014. Still, it notes, crucial uncertainties remain.

It cites the European heat wave of 2003 and the record heat in Australia in 2013 as specific episodes where “relatively strong evidence” showed that a man-made factor contributed to the extreme weather.

In the United States, the authors write, the heat wave that broiled Texas in 2011 was more complicated. That year was Texas’ driest on record, and one study cited in the report said local weather variability and La Niña were the primary causes, with a “relatively small” warming contribution. Another study had concluded that climate change made extreme events 20 times more likely in Texas.

Based on those and other conflicting studies, the federal draft concludes that there was a medium likelihood that climate change played a role in the Texas heat wave. But it avoids assessing other individual weather events for their link to climate change. Generally, the report described linking recent major droughts in the United States to human activity as “complicated,” saying that while many droughts have been long and severe, they have not been unprecedented in the earth’s hydrologic natural variation.

Worldwide, the draft report finds it “extremely likely” that more than half of the global mean temperature increase since 1951 can be linked to human influence.

In the United States, the report concludes with “very high” confidence that the number and severity of cool nights have decreased since the 1960s, while the frequency and severity of warm days have increased. Extreme cold waves, it says, are less common since the 1980s, while extreme heat waves are more common.

The study examines every corner of the United States and finds that all of it was touched by climate change. The average annual temperature in the United States will continue to rise, the authors write, making recent record-setting years “relatively common” in the near future. It projects increases of 5.0 to 7.5 degrees Fahrenheit (2.8 to 4.8 degrees Celsius) by the late century, depending on the level of future emissions.

It says the average annual rainfall across the country has increased by about 4 percent since the beginning of the 20th century. Parts of the West, Southwest and Southeast are drying up, while the Southern Plains and the Midwest are getting wetter.

With a medium degree of confidence, the authors linked the contribution of human-caused warming to rising temperatures over the Western and Northern United States. It found no direct link in the Southeast.

Additionally, the government scientists wrote that surface, air and ground temperatures in Alaska and the Arctic are rising at a frighteningly fast rate — twice as fast as the global average.

“It is very likely that the accelerated rate of Arctic warming will have a significant consequence for the United States due to accelerating land and sea ice melting that is driving changes in the ocean including sea level rise threatening our coastal communities,” the report says.

Human activity, the report goes on to say, is a primary culprit.

The study does not make policy recommendations, but it notes that stabilizing the global mean temperature increase to 2 degrees Celsius — what scientists have referred to as the guardrail beyond which changes become catastrophic — will require significant reductions in global levels of carbon dioxide.

Nearly 200 nations agreed as part of the Paris accords to limit or cut fossil fuel emissions. If countries make good on those promises, the federal report says, that will be a key step toward keeping global warming at manageable levels.

Mr. Trump announced this year that the United States would withdraw from the Paris agreement, saying the deal was bad for America.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 08 2017 10:36 GMT
#166379
On August 08 2017 18:19 warding wrote:
I don't think the argument was that women are generally worse at it, rather than that they are generally less inclined to pursue careers as programmers.

But then he fails to provide any meaningful as to why and sort of just says "there has to be a reason, we shouldn't force it". It is the Tim Allen style of gender discussion, where women are this unknownable mystery of science and culture.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-08 10:55:11
August 08 2017 10:38 GMT
#166380
Well, we shouldn't force it. We should study it, certainly. Not put up any barriers, absolutely. But forcing people into shit doesn't seem like a good idea to me. How would you even do that? Run a propaganda campaign that says women should be programming? Somehow convince women to become fans of men in porn so that there's a market for men to build a name for themselves in porn? That ... wherever gender disparities exist, for whatever reasons (known or unknown at the time)?

I wouldn't be opposed to having female role models highlighted for subjects like engineering in text books at school (along with their more numerous male counterparts) and so on, but there's only so much you can do. Forcibly changing society rather than letting it unfold itself seems about as useful as planned economies.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
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