US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8275
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
On August 02 2017 00:55 xDaunt wrote: Have any of you read the Rod Wheeler complaint? The thing reads like a disaster. It just gratuitously throws a whole bunch of shit at the wall regarding Trump and Fox corporate operations to grab attention and headlines. As far as I can tell, there's no allegation that Trump made up the false quotes that are at issue. The journalist who wrote the article sent a draft to Trump to look at it, Trump liked what he saw, and told the journalist to publish it as soon as possible. And here's the big tell: there's no claim being asserted against Trump or any administration official. No defamation. No civil conspiracy. No civil rights claim. The attorney saw fit to include a racial discrimination component against Fox, but left out claims against the Administration. Yeah.... As to the core merits, there could be some juice to the defamation claim, but I want to see the response first. Lawsuit like that would try to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks, this isn't a criminal but a civil case so widening the scope and aiming high to have them talk you down is common. | ||
Mohdoo
United States15684 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote: Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks. | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:50 IyMoon wrote: Wouldn't that cause a shit storm for a jury to figure out? Depends upon the jury and how bright they are. Typically what happens is that the jury will be given jury instructions stating exactly what has to be proven to find that a given statement is defamatory. There would be a separate instruction for each statement. Each instruction would look something like this, with variations depending upon the applicable standard: 22:4 LIBEL OR SLANDER PER SE — IN A PRIVATE MATTER WHERE PLAINTIFF IS A PRIVATE PERSON — ELEMENTS OF LIABILITY The plaintiff, (name), claims that the defendant, (name), (published) (or) (caused to be published) the following statement(s): (Insert the text of the statement[s] determined by the court to be defamatory.) For the plaintiff to recover from the defendant on (his) (her) claim for (libel) (slander), you must find by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant (published) (or) (caused to be published) the statement(s) set forth above in the same or substantially similar words. If you find that this has not been proved, then your verdict must be for the defendant. On the other hand, if you find that this has been proved, (then your verdict must be for the plaintiff) (then you must consider the defendant’s affirmative defense(s) of [insert any affirmative defense that would be a complete defense to the plaintiff’s claim]). If you find that (this affirmative defense has) (any one or more of these affirmative defenses have) been proved by a preponderance of the evidence, then your verdict must be for the defendant. (In determining whether the affirmative defense of privilege [describe privilege] has been proved, you must also determine whether the defendant abused that privilege as explained in Instruction No. [insert instruction number that corresponds with 22:18].) However, if you find that (this affirmative defense has not) (none of these affirmative defenses have) been proved, then your verdict must be for the plaintiff. | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote: Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are I genuinely think though that Americas subsidies towards home ownership are genuinely bad, it does make people less mobile and is essentially a handout to the (upper) middle class | ||
Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote: Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims? Timothy Dexter | ||
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KwarK
United States42640 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:54 Mohdoo wrote: lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks. There's a little more to that section too. Here's the full quote. And I’m going to start explaining to people when you have an area that just isn’t working – like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt – and then you’ll have another area 500 miles away where you can’t – you can’t get people, I’m going to explain you can leave, it’s OK, don’t worry about your house. You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right? Trump thinks that people stay in economically depressed areas because a billionaire hasn't explained to them that their house is a sunk cost. But that once he tells them it's okay they'll understand that it's only $70,000 they've lost. | ||
Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote: Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims? *tips fedora* | ||
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9639 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote: Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims? Something about money. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:56 KwarK wrote: There's a little more to that section too. Here's the full quote. Trump thinks that people stay in economically depressed areas because a billionaire hasn't explained to them that their house is a sunk cost. But that once he tells them it's okay they'll understand that it's only $70,000 they've lost. Understanding the plight of rural America. Chase the jobs like the Joads did. Like True Americans. | ||
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KwarK
United States42640 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:55 Nyxisto wrote: I genuinely think though that Americas subsidies towards home ownership are genuinely bad, it does make people less mobile and is essentially a handout to the (upper) middle class Yes and no. The tax breaks almost exclusively go to the upper class because you have to forfeit another tax break to claim the mortgage tax break and for most people that won't be worth it. Only if you have an extremely expensive mortgage or a high income is the tax break worth having. However the average American has no savings to speak of and very little invested. A house is an extremely leveraged investment that can be purchased with low interest rates and tends to trend upwards in value. If middle class Americans didn't own homes they'd never build any wealth at all. | ||
Mohdoo
United States15684 Posts
Welcome to America, where people legitimately admire someone's wealth as if it has some sort of intrinsic value and speaks to their character. I don't understand how it was done, but somewhere along the way, society came to admire wealth and began viewing it as an indicator of hard work and good character. | ||
mozoku
United States708 Posts
On August 02 2017 05:07 a_flayer wrote: I think there could be a lot more focus from political leaders on finding a common ground between various ethnicities with regards to police brutality, economic inequality, and so on. But people in the US are kept apart by rather meaningless (for their interests) party philosophies such as liberalism and conservatism. The poor people on both of these sides will be stuck in their own little ghettos till they start to work together against this machine of evil that continues to suppress them. Fat chance of that happening though. The three highest income ethnic groups in the US are East Asians (broadly grouped), Hindus, and Jews iirc. I'm not sure if that fits into your implied narrative about the WASP conspiracy that's purposely oppressing all the other races. Racism exists and it's unfair and should be fixed where possible. But in socioeconomic terms, it certainly appears that the market cares more about skills and education more than it does oppressing non-WASPs. Also, let's dust off this chart: ![]() A paper suggested by a liberal poster here claimed rank-rank correlation of US income mobility was 0.6 (the number was corroborated by other authors). This is what that looks like. This is within-generation mobility by the way (correlation between you now and you in 15 years). Which is already heavily biased downward because the most common method of family income mobility is between-generation (i.e. through getting a better education than your parents). Yes, the system isn't fair because not everyone gets a level playing field to start. While there's steps that can and should be taken to try to ameliorate that, it's more or less impossible to completely fix as parents who are successful in their career are always going to impart genes and parenting lessons/practices that generally lead to their kids' career success. Conversely, parents who haven't had successful careers tend to lack the knowledge of what it takes to have a successful career, making it hard to pass it down to their kids. Additionally, families tend to move near other families with similar socioeconomic status, which reinforces this effect both directions. This is also hard to fix, short of government mandating where people live. No, the system isn't what's stopping you from living at least a comfortable upper-middle class life though (in the vast majority of cases). That's fully achievable by working hard and following common sense advise that's told to everyone (i.e. "try hard in school", "play nice with others", "try to excel at your career", etc.). Democrats love to tell their voters that the system is at fault for their problems because it's human nature to blame things other than yourself for your mistakes (ever play a MOBA?). Especially when it's socially acceptable to do so because half of the country is telling you that it's the case. It's a brilliant political strategy. And, as an added bonus, Democrats can then morally justifiably push for redistribution (i.e. taxing to give money disproportionately to their voters), and create an enemy (Wall Street and/or "the 1%"). to energize their base. The whole narrative is like a politician's wet dream, and consequently it's perpetuated; but that doesn't mean it's accurate, nor unfortunately that their solutions fix the portion of the alleged problem that does exist. | ||
Sermokala
United States13924 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote: Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims? Trump is so dumb that he sucked in the intelligence of all the people who supported him enough so that they aren't responsible for supporting him anymore? | ||
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 02 2017 06:45 KwarK wrote: Trump on relative tax rates between different countries. haaaa... | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On August 02 2017 07:00 Plansix wrote: Understanding the plight of rural America. Chase the jobs like the Joads did. Like True Americans. Become a tramp and ride the rail cars from town to town, the American dream! A romantic life of adventure awaits. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 02 2017 07:02 mozoku wrote: The three highest income ethnic groups in the US are East Asians (broadly grouped), Hindus, and Jews iirc. I'm not sure if that fits into your implied narrative about the WASP conspiracy that's purposely oppressing all the other races. Racism exists and it's unfair and should be fixed where possible. But in socioeconomic terms, it certainly appears that the market cares more about skills and education more than it does oppressing non-WASPs. Also, let's dust off this chart: ![]() A paper suggested by a liberal poster here claimed rank-rank correlation of US income mobility was 0.6 (the number was corroborated by other authors). This is what that looks like. This is within-generation mobility by the way (correlation between you now and you in 15 years). Which is already heavily biased downward because the most common method of family income mobility is between-generation (i.e. through getting a better education than your parents). Yes, the system isn't fair because not everyone gets a level playing field to start. While there's steps that can and should be taken to try to ameliorate that, it's more or less impossible to completely fix as parents who are successful in their career are always going to impart genes and parenting lessons/practices that generally lead to their kids' career success. Conversely, parents who haven't had successful careers tend to lack the knowledge of what it takes to have a successful career, making it hard to pass it down to their kids. Additionally, families tend to move near other families with similar socioeconomic status, which reinforces this effect both directions. This is also hard to fix, short of government mandating where people live. No, the system isn't what's stopping you from living at least a comfortable upper-middle class life though (in the vast majority of cases). That's fully achievable by working hard and following common sense advise that's told to everyone (i.e. "try hard in school", "play nice with others", "try to excel at your career", etc.). Democrats love to tell their voters that the system is at fault for their problems because it's human nature to blame things other than yourself for your mistakes (ever play a MOBA?). Especially when it's socially acceptable to do so because half of the country is telling you that it's the case. It's a brilliant political strategy. And, as an added bonus, Democrats can then morally justifiably push for redistribution (i.e. taxing to give money disproportionately to their voters), and create an enemy (Wall Street and/or "the 1%"). to energize their base. The whole narrative is like a politician's wet dream, and consequently it's perpetuated; but that doesn't mean it's accurate, nor unfortunately that their solutions fix the portion of the alleged problem that does exist. Democrats support social safety nets that benefit all Americans. Its been a while since I seen the Romney line of "they give gifts out to get people to vote for them". On August 02 2017 07:04 OuchyDathurts wrote: Become a tramp and ride the rail cars from town to town, the American dream! A romantic life of adventure awaits. Live life on the move, free from worry or care. Find your calling on in the great expanse that is America. Everyone will be happy to see you in their neck of the wood, chasing your dream. | ||
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KwarK
United States42640 Posts
Well, I’ll tell you, you know, I did – I did thing that nobody even wrote about – although, you did. (Laughter.) But when I was with President Xi, who I have a very good relationship with, I said: Do me a favor. Would you allow cattle, please, to come in? I was last night in West Virginia, and I had farmers coming up to me and hugging me and kissing me because of the cattle stuff. They actually weren’t from West Virginia; they were from other places. (Laughter.) But, you know, it was the Boy Scouts, so they came from all over the country, but | ||
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