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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8275

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
August 01 2017 21:53 GMT
#165481
Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims?
LiquidDota Staff
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
August 01 2017 21:53 GMT
#165482
On August 02 2017 00:55 xDaunt wrote:
Have any of you read the Rod Wheeler complaint? The thing reads like a disaster. It just gratuitously throws a whole bunch of shit at the wall regarding Trump and Fox corporate operations to grab attention and headlines. As far as I can tell, there's no allegation that Trump made up the false quotes that are at issue. The journalist who wrote the article sent a draft to Trump to look at it, Trump liked what he saw, and told the journalist to publish it as soon as possible. And here's the big tell: there's no claim being asserted against Trump or any administration official. No defamation. No civil conspiracy. No civil rights claim. The attorney saw fit to include a racial discrimination component against Fox, but left out claims against the Administration. Yeah....

As to the core merits, there could be some juice to the defamation claim, but I want to see the response first.

Lawsuit like that would try to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks, this isn't a criminal but a civil case so widening the scope and aiming high to have them talk you down is common.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15684 Posts
August 01 2017 21:54 GMT
#165483
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
Show nested quote +
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 01 2017 21:55 GMT
#165484
On August 02 2017 06:50 IyMoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 06:46 xDaunt wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:09 Nevuk wrote:

Why The Lawsuit Alleging Fox News Conspired With Trump Is Big Legal Loser

Rod Wheeler, the former cop, current private investigator and longtime Fox News contributor whose investigation into Seth Rich‘s murder caused a major media flare-up, has filed a lawsuit against Fox News, the journalist who wrote the since-retracted story and the Trump stalwart who bankrolled his investigation.

Wheeler’s lawsuit contains many scurrilous accusations against Fox News, reporter Malia Zimmerman and Trump-backer Ed Butowsky. Not least of which is the claim that Zimmerman and Butowsky conspired with the White House to pin the Wikileaks trail on the deceased Rich–effectively short-circuiting the Russian narrative which still hangs like a petulant crowd over the entirety of Trump’s presidency.

As shocking as the conspiracy claims are–and as telling as they might be if true–Wheeler’s lawsuit simply relies on their innuendo-laced narrative as supporting facts. Legally, it would be very hard for him to prove he was defamed by the events that transpired. While the lawsuit is certainly salacious, unfortunately for Wheeler, it may very well be a legal loser.

Wheeler alleges that to achieve the end goal of “advancing a political agenda,” Zimmerman (at Butowsky’s urging) fabricated two quotes. According to Wheeler, those two quotes were known to be fabrications. And, after they were printed by Fox News and denied by Wheeler, Butowsky made two statements via Twitter which cast aspersions on Wheeler’s truthfulness. Therefore, Wheeler is not suing Fox News, et, al. because of the alleged conspiracy, but rather because of the damage all the ensuing drama has caused to his personal reputation. At the core, the lawsuit is a defamation claim against Fox News, and the other named defendants.

In his lawsuit, Wheeler is relying on a theory of liability known as “defamation per se”. This essentially means that if the statements alleged to be defamatory meet a certain standard, they’ll be deemed defamatory even in the absence of damages. There are four categories of statements which qualify as defamation per se. Under New York State law, statements that tend to injure a party’s trade, occupation or business are usually enough to meet the standard. A recent case found that words and terms like “‘scam,’ ‘liar,’ ‘bullshitter,’ [and] ‘con artist'” would qualify as defamatory per se because those words and terms allege misconduct in regard to the plaintiff’s “trade, occupation or profession which would cause potential customers of the plaintiff to avoid using his services.”

That’s exactly what Wheeler is claiming happened to him. “Following the publication of Zimmerman’s article, and precisely because of the defamatory statements therein, Mr. Wheeler’s reputation as an objective, credible and intelligent investigator with integrity was completely destroyed,” the lawsuit reads.

Wheeler then provides documentation (in the form of multiple press clippings) which attest to the harm his reputation has suffered as a result of the entire Seth Rich conspiracy theory. It’s not particularly disputable that Rod Wheeler is probably not the go-to guy for private investigations following the media circus and accusations of back-tracking that occurred following the publication of Zimmerman’s story. But since he’s alleging defamation per se, he doesn’t really need to do this. The statements themselves simply have to be (1) false and (2) published with (3) fault at least amounting to negligence as well as (4) defamatory per se. So, do each of the statements meet the necessary standards?

Wheeler’s lawsuit alleges that six distinct comments rise to the level of defamation per se: (1) the first allegedly fabricated quote by the Fox journalist (2) the second allegedly fabricated quote; (3) the following statement from Zimmerman to Joel Rich, Seth Rich’s father: “As you know, much of our information came from a private investigator, Rod Wheeler, who we understand was working on behalf of you,”; (4) the following tweet from Butowsky (the wealthy Trump supporter who bankrolled Wheeler’s investigation): “Fox News story was pulled b/c Rod Wheeler said [he] didn’t say a quote . . . How much did DNC pay him?”; and (5) this tweet from Butowsky on the same day: “This shows Rod Wheeler has a major battle with the truth. Everyone needs to hear this. He says the precise words he swears he didn’t say???”

The two allegedly fabricated quotes could qualify as defamatory per se if Wheeler, a private investigator, didn’t say those things and their substance is ultimately factually deficient. But Fox News via President of News Jay Wallace, is standing by their reporter saying “we have no evidence that Rod Wheeler was misquoted by Zimmerman.” Wallace also says the claim that Fox News published the story to detract from the Russia scandal is “completely erroneous.” Zimmerman herself has remained mum. And Butowsky has alleged that Wheeler is in the wrong here. There’s also the possibility that Zimmerman simply misquoted Wheeler or that Wheeler said something close to what was printed but doesn’t recall saying those words exactly. It’s a toss-up here, and probably exceedingly difficult to prove what exactly happened.
Zimmerman’s statement to Joel Rich appears to be factually inaccurate. The Fox News reporter very likely knew the conditions surrounding Wheeler’s hiring and the role Butowsky played in setting it all up. She was very likely aware of the exact contours of Wheeler’s employment, so her statement to Rich here could have been false. But this doesn’t rise to the level of defamation per se because its falsity in this regard has only a very tangential bearing on Wheeler’s professional qualifications. Wheeler also claims that this statement is defamatory because of the phrase “much of our information came from a private investigator,” but even though this more directly speaks to Wheeler’s professional qualifications, it’s not defamatory on its face.

As for Butowsky’s tweets, Butowsky raises the idea that Wheeler was paid by the Democratic National Committee to backtrack on his story. This is a clear attack on Wheeler’s trustworthiness and speaks directly to his professional qualifications. Butowsky’s second tweet digs in on much the same ground. So, seemingly, the per se element here would be met, but Wheeler may have some trouble satisfying some other elements of defamation: (1) falsity; and (2) fault at least amounting to negligence. For one, Butowsky may seriously believe the things he tweeted. New York courts have struggled to define unprotected assertions of fact from from pure opinions. In other words, Butowsky may contend that he really thought that Wheeler worked for the DNC, and even though it’s not true, that might be enough to help him.

Plus, an added bulwark against Wheeler’s claims generally is the fact that Fox News retracted the story once the questions about its truthfulness reached a fever pitch. In New York, retracting or correcting a published mistake tends to act as at least a mitigating defense in defamation cases.

The standards for proving defamation in the United States are very high and these lawsuits typically fail–especially in New York.

TL;DR–assessing simply the defamation claims (and ignoring the oddly-included claims of Civil Rights deprivation via racial bias), Wheeler doesn’t have anything close to a slam dunk here. At best he’s provided triable issues of material fact which could get his lawsuit past the summary judgment phase, but even then it would be very difficult to win. The likely endgame here: Wheeler and the defendants end up settling for far less than he wants.

lawnewz.com


Basically it doesn't have perfect legal standing, and the allegations about conspiracy aren't really the basis of the legal claims.

I don't think that this blog is looking at the claims correctly, which isn't surprising given how stupidly complicated defamation law is. In short, there are multiple standards for liability bearing varying burdens of proof that depend upon whether First Amendment jurisprudence applies, whether state law applies, and the context of the statement at issue. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if different legal standards applied to some of the statements that are at issue here.


Wouldn't that cause a shit storm for a jury to figure out?

Depends upon the jury and how bright they are. Typically what happens is that the jury will be given jury instructions stating exactly what has to be proven to find that a given statement is defamatory. There would be a separate instruction for each statement. Each instruction would look something like this, with variations depending upon the applicable standard:

22:4 LIBEL OR SLANDER PER SE — IN A PRIVATE MATTER WHERE PLAINTIFF IS A PRIVATE PERSON — ELEMENTS OF LIABILITY

The plaintiff, (name), claims that the defendant, (name), (published) (or) (caused to be published) the following statement(s):

(Insert the text of the statement[s] determined by the court to be defamatory.)

For the plaintiff to recover from the defendant on (his) (her) claim for (libel) (slander), you must find by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant (published) (or) (caused to be published) the statement(s) set forth above in the same or substantially similar words.

If you find that this has not been proved, then your verdict must be for the defendant.

On the other hand, if you find that this has been proved, (then your verdict must be for the plaintiff) (then you must consider the defendant’s affirmative defense(s) of [insert any affirmative defense that would be a complete defense to the plaintiff’s claim]).

If you find that (this affirmative defense has) (any one or more of these affirmative defenses have) been proved by a preponderance of the evidence, then your verdict must be for the defendant.

(In determining whether the affirmative defense of privilege [describe privilege] has been proved, you must also determine whether the defendant abused that privilege as explained in Instruction No. [insert instruction number that corresponds with 22:18].)

However, if you find that (this affirmative defense has not) (none of these affirmative defenses have) been proved, then your verdict must be for the plaintiff.


Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-01 21:55:23
August 01 2017 21:55 GMT
#165485
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
Show nested quote +
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


I genuinely think though that Americas subsidies towards home ownership are genuinely bad, it does make people less mobile and is essentially a handout to the (upper) middle class
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
August 01 2017 21:55 GMT
#165486
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims?


Timothy Dexter
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
August 01 2017 21:56 GMT
#165487
On August 02 2017 06:54 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks.

There's a little more to that section too. Here's the full quote.
And I’m going to start explaining to people when you have an area that just isn’t working – like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt – and then you’ll have another area 500 miles away where you can’t – you can’t get people, I’m going to explain you can leave, it’s OK, don’t worry about your house.

You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?

Trump thinks that people stay in economically depressed areas because a billionaire hasn't explained to them that their house is a sunk cost. But that once he tells them it's okay they'll understand that it's only $70,000 they've lost.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Deleted User 261926
Profile Joined April 2012
960 Posts
August 01 2017 21:56 GMT
#165488
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims?

*tips fedora*
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9639 Posts
August 01 2017 21:59 GMT
#165489
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims?


Something about money.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 01 2017 22:00 GMT
#165490
On August 02 2017 06:56 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 06:54 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks.

There's a little more to that section too. Here's the full quote.
Show nested quote +
And I’m going to start explaining to people when you have an area that just isn’t working – like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt – and then you’ll have another area 500 miles away where you can’t – you can’t get people, I’m going to explain you can leave, it’s OK, don’t worry about your house.

You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?

Trump thinks that people stay in economically depressed areas because a billionaire hasn't explained to them that their house is a sunk cost. But that once he tells them it's okay they'll understand that it's only $70,000 they've lost.

Understanding the plight of rural America. Chase the jobs like the Joads did. Like True Americans.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
August 01 2017 22:00 GMT
#165491
On August 02 2017 06:55 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


I genuinely think though that Americas subsidies towards home ownership are genuinely bad, it does make people less mobile and is essentially a handout to the (upper) middle class

Yes and no. The tax breaks almost exclusively go to the upper class because you have to forfeit another tax break to claim the mortgage tax break and for most people that won't be worth it. Only if you have an extremely expensive mortgage or a high income is the tax break worth having. However the average American has no savings to speak of and very little invested. A house is an extremely leveraged investment that can be purchased with low interest rates and tends to trend upwards in value. If middle class Americans didn't own homes they'd never build any wealth at all.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15684 Posts
August 01 2017 22:01 GMT
#165492
On August 02 2017 06:59 Jockmcplop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims?


Something about money.


Welcome to America, where people legitimately admire someone's wealth as if it has some sort of intrinsic value and speaks to their character.

I don't understand how it was done, but somewhere along the way, society came to admire wealth and began viewing it as an indicator of hard work and good character.
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
August 01 2017 22:02 GMT
#165493
On August 02 2017 05:07 a_flayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 04:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:29 KwarK wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:23 Wegandi wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:18 KwarK wrote:
People can be racist against blacks without treating a given white person like a king.


Do you see why people might think that "white privilege" is stupid? The only "privilege" in this country is if you're connected to the Government, either directly or indirectly. There's no get out of jail card otherwise.

No, I don't see why they might think it's stupid. If they think it's stupid the only possible explanations that seem possible to me are a failure to understand what white privilege means or extreme idiocy. I'll go ahead and presume the former on your part.

White privilege does not mean that white people don't have problems. It means that there are social advantages to being white that black people don't benefit from. Which is such a broad and obvious statement that it is absolutely baffling to me that someone would question it. There is also black privilege too, for what it's worth. Being black isn't all bad. But black privilege is certainly a worse deal that white privilege.

Imagine this were a role play game. If you rolled white as your starting race then you get some fun modifiers like +2 to charisma rolls with law enforcement. It doesn't mean you always win every encounter, if you roll five die and they're all 1s you're still fucked. But it is a race advantage versus had you rolled black as your starting race. White players can still roll all 1s and black players can still roll 6s but if you take the entire group average you'll find the +2 modifier is statistically significant over time.


I would never suggest that the concept of white privilege is stupid. I would, however, say that the current obsession with it is very stupid and most of all very counter productive. If you go around insulting/insinuating extremely negative things about the vast majority of the population sooner or later they will get sick of it and then BOOM!
Trump.

I think there could be a lot more focus from political leaders on finding a common ground between various ethnicities with regards to police brutality, economic inequality, and so on. But people in the US are kept apart by rather meaningless (for their interests) party philosophies such as liberalism and conservatism. The poor people on both of these sides will be stuck in their own little ghettos till they start to work together against this machine of evil that continues to suppress them. Fat chance of that happening though.

The three highest income ethnic groups in the US are East Asians (broadly grouped), Hindus, and Jews iirc.

I'm not sure if that fits into your implied narrative about the WASP conspiracy that's purposely oppressing all the other races.

Racism exists and it's unfair and should be fixed where possible. But in socioeconomic terms, it certainly appears that the market cares more about skills and education more than it does oppressing non-WASPs.

Also, let's dust off this chart:
[image loading]
A paper suggested by a liberal poster here claimed rank-rank correlation of US income mobility was 0.6 (the number was corroborated by other authors). This is what that looks like. This is within-generation mobility by the way (correlation between you now and you in 15 years). Which is already heavily biased downward because the most common method of family income mobility is between-generation (i.e. through getting a better education than your parents).

Yes, the system isn't fair because not everyone gets a level playing field to start.

While there's steps that can and should be taken to try to ameliorate that, it's more or less impossible to completely fix as parents who are successful in their career are always going to impart genes and parenting lessons/practices that generally lead to their kids' career success. Conversely, parents who haven't had successful careers tend to lack the knowledge of what it takes to have a successful career, making it hard to pass it down to their kids. Additionally, families tend to move near other families with similar socioeconomic status, which reinforces this effect both directions. This is also hard to fix, short of government mandating where people live.

No, the system isn't what's stopping you from living at least a comfortable upper-middle class life though (in the vast majority of cases). That's fully achievable by working hard and following common sense advise that's told to everyone (i.e. "try hard in school", "play nice with others", "try to excel at your career", etc.).

Democrats love to tell their voters that the system is at fault for their problems because it's human nature to blame things other than yourself for your mistakes (ever play a MOBA?). Especially when it's socially acceptable to do so because half of the country is telling you that it's the case. It's a brilliant political strategy. And, as an added bonus, Democrats can then morally justifiably push for redistribution (i.e. taxing to give money disproportionately to their voters), and create an enemy (Wall Street and/or "the 1%"). to energize their base. The whole narrative is like a politician's wet dream, and consequently it's perpetuated; but that doesn't mean it's accurate, nor unfortunately that their solutions fix the portion of the alleged problem that does exist.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
August 01 2017 22:03 GMT
#165494
On August 02 2017 06:53 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Trump is legitimately the dumbest human to have ever been born. Counter claims?

Trump is so dumb that he sucked in the intelligence of all the people who supported him enough so that they aren't responsible for supporting him anymore?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
August 01 2017 22:03 GMT
#165495
On August 02 2017 06:45 KwarK wrote:
Trump on relative tax rates between different countries.
Show nested quote +
We’re the highest-taxed nation in the world, essentially, you know, of the size. But we’re the highest-taxed nation in the world. We have – nobody knows what the number is. I mean, it used to be, when we talked during the debate, 2 ½ trillion (dollars), right, when the most elegant person – right? I call him Mr. Elegant. I mean, that was a great debate. We did such a great job.

haaaa...
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 01 2017 22:03 GMT
#165496
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
August 01 2017 22:04 GMT
#165497
On August 02 2017 07:00 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 06:56 KwarK wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:54 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks.

There's a little more to that section too. Here's the full quote.
And I’m going to start explaining to people when you have an area that just isn’t working – like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt – and then you’ll have another area 500 miles away where you can’t – you can’t get people, I’m going to explain you can leave, it’s OK, don’t worry about your house.

You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?

Trump thinks that people stay in economically depressed areas because a billionaire hasn't explained to them that their house is a sunk cost. But that once he tells them it's okay they'll understand that it's only $70,000 they've lost.

Understanding the plight of rural America. Chase the jobs like the Joads did. Like True Americans.


Become a tramp and ride the rail cars from town to town, the American dream! A romantic life of adventure awaits.
LiquidDota Staff
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 01 2017 22:05 GMT
#165498
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-01 22:10:18
August 01 2017 22:06 GMT
#165499
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 02 2017 07:02 mozoku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 05:07 a_flayer wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:29 KwarK wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:23 Wegandi wrote:
On August 02 2017 04:18 KwarK wrote:
People can be racist against blacks without treating a given white person like a king.


Do you see why people might think that "white privilege" is stupid? The only "privilege" in this country is if you're connected to the Government, either directly or indirectly. There's no get out of jail card otherwise.

No, I don't see why they might think it's stupid. If they think it's stupid the only possible explanations that seem possible to me are a failure to understand what white privilege means or extreme idiocy. I'll go ahead and presume the former on your part.

White privilege does not mean that white people don't have problems. It means that there are social advantages to being white that black people don't benefit from. Which is such a broad and obvious statement that it is absolutely baffling to me that someone would question it. There is also black privilege too, for what it's worth. Being black isn't all bad. But black privilege is certainly a worse deal that white privilege.

Imagine this were a role play game. If you rolled white as your starting race then you get some fun modifiers like +2 to charisma rolls with law enforcement. It doesn't mean you always win every encounter, if you roll five die and they're all 1s you're still fucked. But it is a race advantage versus had you rolled black as your starting race. White players can still roll all 1s and black players can still roll 6s but if you take the entire group average you'll find the +2 modifier is statistically significant over time.


I would never suggest that the concept of white privilege is stupid. I would, however, say that the current obsession with it is very stupid and most of all very counter productive. If you go around insulting/insinuating extremely negative things about the vast majority of the population sooner or later they will get sick of it and then BOOM!
Trump.

I think there could be a lot more focus from political leaders on finding a common ground between various ethnicities with regards to police brutality, economic inequality, and so on. But people in the US are kept apart by rather meaningless (for their interests) party philosophies such as liberalism and conservatism. The poor people on both of these sides will be stuck in their own little ghettos till they start to work together against this machine of evil that continues to suppress them. Fat chance of that happening though.

The three highest income ethnic groups in the US are East Asians (broadly grouped), Hindus, and Jews iirc.

I'm not sure if that fits into your implied narrative about the WASP conspiracy that's purposely oppressing all the other races.

Racism exists and it's unfair and should be fixed where possible. But in socioeconomic terms, it certainly appears that the market cares more about skills and education more than it does oppressing non-WASPs.

Also, let's dust off this chart:
[image loading]
A paper suggested by a liberal poster here claimed rank-rank correlation of US income mobility was 0.6 (the number was corroborated by other authors). This is what that looks like. This is within-generation mobility by the way (correlation between you now and you in 15 years). Which is already heavily biased downward because the most common method of family income mobility is between-generation (i.e. through getting a better education than your parents).

Yes, the system isn't fair because not everyone gets a level playing field to start.

While there's steps that can and should be taken to try to ameliorate that, it's more or less impossible to completely fix as parents who are successful in their career are always going to impart genes and parenting lessons/practices that generally lead to their kids' career success. Conversely, parents who haven't had successful careers tend to lack the knowledge of what it takes to have a successful career, making it hard to pass it down to their kids. Additionally, families tend to move near other families with similar socioeconomic status, which reinforces this effect both directions. This is also hard to fix, short of government mandating where people live.

No, the system isn't what's stopping you from living at least a comfortable upper-middle class life though (in the vast majority of cases). That's fully achievable by working hard and following common sense advise that's told to everyone (i.e. "try hard in school", "play nice with others", "try to excel at your career", etc.).

Democrats love to tell their voters that the system is at fault for their problems because it's human nature to blame things other than yourself for your mistakes (ever play a MOBA?). Especially when it's socially acceptable to do so because half of the country is telling you that it's the case. It's a brilliant political strategy. And, as an added bonus, Democrats can then morally justifiably push for redistribution (i.e. taxing to give money disproportionately to their voters), and create an enemy (Wall Street and/or "the 1%"). to energize their base. The whole narrative is like a politician's wet dream, and consequently it's perpetuated; but that doesn't mean it's accurate, nor unfortunately that their solutions fix the portion of the alleged problem that does exist.


Democrats support social safety nets that benefit all Americans. Its been a while since I seen the Romney line of "they give gifts out to get people to vote for them".

On August 02 2017 07:04 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 07:00 Plansix wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:56 KwarK wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:54 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 02 2017 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Trump on worker mobility and the refusal of people to go to where the jobs are
You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?


lol then there's mr factory worker yelling "MAGA" and talking about how there's finally a president who understands rural folks.

There's a little more to that section too. Here's the full quote.
And I’m going to start explaining to people when you have an area that just isn’t working – like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt – and then you’ll have another area 500 miles away where you can’t – you can’t get people, I’m going to explain you can leave, it’s OK, don’t worry about your house.

You know, a lot of them don’t leave because of their house. Because they say, gee, my house, I thought it was worth 70,000 (dollars) and now it’s worth nothing. It’s OK. Go, cut your losses, right?

Trump thinks that people stay in economically depressed areas because a billionaire hasn't explained to them that their house is a sunk cost. But that once he tells them it's okay they'll understand that it's only $70,000 they've lost.

Understanding the plight of rural America. Chase the jobs like the Joads did. Like True Americans.


Become a tramp and ride the rail cars from town to town, the American dream! A romantic life of adventure awaits.

Live life on the move, free from worry or care. Find your calling on in the great expanse that is America. Everyone will be happy to see you in their neck of the wood, chasing your dream.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
August 01 2017 22:12 GMT
#165500
On a trade agreement with the UK (cont)
Well, I’ll tell you, you know, I did – I did thing that nobody even wrote about – although, you did. (Laughter.) But when I was with President Xi, who I have a very good relationship with, I said: Do me a favor. Would you allow cattle, please, to come in? I was last night in West Virginia, and I had farmers coming up to me and hugging me and kissing me because of the cattle stuff. They actually weren’t from West Virginia; they were from other places. (Laughter.) But, you know, it was the Boy Scouts, so they came from all over the country, but
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